Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Ken Wainwright on January 23, 2009, 08:22:36 pm
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Hi Goldfinch
I've noticed in recent weeks your contributions to this forum and you come over as a level headed, wise and valued contributor to CIU.
Your website says you trade in the West Midland and London areas. I too am from the Birmingham area, so thought I'd find out where you're based, so I looked at the footer on your posts and started there.
As far as I'm aware, you've never divulged your name, but I stand to be corrected.
Your information on your footer suggests that you are an NCCA Member. I can't see your entry on the NCCA's members list. If you are not an NCCA member, my view is that you are trying to decieve us and the public into thinking you are, all for the sake of a couple of hundred pounds a year.
A quick search of the contacts page of your website and there's no mention of addresses, either email or postal, nor telephone numbers except on other pages where your non-geographic 0845 number is shown.
If I have missed something, then I apologise, but I would be grateful if you could clarify who you are and your various memberships staus.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Ken, looking at his website I think he's using the 'Trained by' trick ;)
it list the NCCA, LTT, IICRC . it doesn't actually say he a member and I think if he was he would be using the Logo.
but he hasn't been on line for a few days so hasn't seen your question.
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Like Lloyd Grossman used to say " The Clues Are There " !!
Google really is a wonderful tool.
Jim G
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Mike
I'm aware of the "trained by" trick, hence the very deliberate wording of my original post. My point is, Goldfinch is not only trying to decieve the public, but also trying to decieve his colleagues here on Cleanitup.
If procedures are still the same, when Goldfinch attended the NCCA Training course, he will have signed a document to say that he would not use the NCCA/National Carpet Cleaners Association names or logos without being a paid up member. Goldfinch PCS are certainly an IICRC Certified Firm, so I would presume that this means that ALL technicians working from BOTH offices have FULL IICRC training and certification for ALL relevant services offered, and both offices are registered with IICRC UK.
As for a Google search Jim, it should not be a requirement of CIU members to check up on colleagues for the most basic of information. IMO, it should be a matter of courtesy between professionals to honestly divulge who they are and where they're from.
From reading some of Goldfinch's posts, the picture in my mind is of someone not too experienced in our industry or running a business, but I could be wrong. He comes over as being articulate and intelligent and my suspicion is that he may be a little naive in the ways of our industry forums and perhaps the way he uses industry "qualifications" too.
A little more openness would be appreciated.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Hello Ken,
First thanks for the feedback.
I trained with Alltec, LTT and NCCA but I am only a member of the IICRC. I never used the NCCA logo and I have no intentions of using it illegally so it's not on the site. NOTHING against the NCCA, just aint got round to that bit yet I will join shortly, I do not display the LTT log either I haven't joined them as yet but that will be even sooner than the NCCA because I will be selling their products among other things online.
I reference these links not because of membership status but simply so that anyone who might be interested to know about my level of academic skills/knowledge they have a reference point to where I was trained and the type of organisations they are and what they provide. In a sense it works for me and the organisations, as one member points out the google issue and also I am advertising the organisations which I don't see on a lot of other members' sites, they have a logo (if they are members) but no link and so no one can go directly to, lets say the NCCA direct from that site, on my site you can.
I haven't spoken to you directly before but I am always picking the brains of Keith - Chemspec Direct, he supplies my chemicals and bits and bob. When he was getting me into DFC105 he mentioned you and I read the piece you wrote. I also heard Paul Pearce mentioning your name as well while attending several of his courses because I am always asking questions.
Goldfinch PCS is part of Dove Carpet Cleaning based in East London (Walthamstow), Dove started over 20yrs ago by my Uncle who is Prochem trained, I still has his very first machine and it still works (only use it for upholstery work). I worked with him in London over the years, never on a full-time basis, mainly when I was on holiday from college or Uni. Anyway Long story.
So when I decided last year to get in fully (pushed by my uncle, he wants to retire), I started Goldfinch as a separate brand, I wanted to target a different set of domestic customers and I wanted to go commercial as well. My uncle hates commercial, too much headache he said but he always said if I was prepared to deal with the headache then he would support me so I tender for cleaning contracts now, the whole thing not just periodic carpet cleaning but daily cleaning, supplies, management etc., more like facility management. My domestic customers pay for my service not for a carpet cleaner. I don't have jobs everyday all day but when I work it's worth my day.
Lets say I know a CC from brum that travelled to London to clean a 5 bedroom house for £250 and he thought he did great, well fare play to the guy he is happy. With me on the other hand that customer stands no chance at that price, so you can gauge the end of the market I aim for. Like yourself Ken, Carl -Dove, Paul Pearce, Pavlo, Keith Nicholson - Chemspec Direct, Peter - Cleanright, Mr LTT and all the other Professionals that I have met over the years, you guys are in a sense my roll models, I listen and I take advice, at this point I would like to say THANKS GUYS FOR YOUR HELP AND ADVICE I have tried a lot of it and it works, I am not showered with customers in Brum and I don't expect to because I am still building grounds but the customers I am getting are the ones I want to work for as a professional.
Regarding my address the site is still getting built I am doing it myself and it isn't near completion yet, when completed my address will be there. My address is on other sites plus i just acquired some commercial space and that will be the address I use so the current address will change soon. I live in Smethwick - Barewood/Capehill Side, - Mansion Crescent, Smethwick, B67 6QW - No Mail spamming please. Anyone from the forum that wants to contact me - 07908 231 341
Will I be going back to London?
Hell! yes. Just getting things setup here.
Richard Stephens
Goldfinch PCS
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Scenario..
If someone approaches you for a job and says to you, they have 6 GSCE, 3 A-Levels and a Certificate in Higher Education, you then say to them really! Where did you do all this?
Their answer - I am not allowed to say.
Can I see your certificate?
Their answer - Well not really.
What would your thoughts be?
This issue did arise when we were training in Leicester, several students voiced there opinions. What I found a bit disturbing was the number of people on the course(over half the class) had no interest whatsoever in learning how to clean carpets properly or following proper procedures. They wanted the certificate so they could become members or for insurance or credibility only the newbies wanted experience/knowledge. A lot of these guys were CC with years of working experience and no formal or outdated qualifications.
So I went away and did an online research, and found that a lot of companies who were members were clearly not acting in a professional manor. Now I know we are going to end up and old topics, such as, pricing, should we quote over the phone, should we bother to vac or pre-spray etc. What is the point in going through the training and if you dont's see the point in following the procedures? What is the aim of the NCCA, training and educating or recruiting members? Where is the balance? I also feel more can be done and should be done by the NCCA for their members - I have a list, but one key thing I feel is that members should uphold a standard and defend there living instead of falling foul to a cut throat market.
This topic came up in this forum before, people wanting to know where to go for training and where is best NCCA PROCHEM IICRC etc. What the majority on the forum said is the custie never heard of the NCCA PROCHEM OR IICRC so why bother joining or training with them? One person said you are better off going out with an experienced CC and learning on the job. Now, this is an area all three certification bodies MUST pay serious attention to.
I respect these organisations, I will join them, but I have not in anyway imply been a member of any apart from the IICRC.
Back to the top, if I approach any of you for a job and tell you what qualifications I have but can't show you a certificate or say where I study would you give me a job? If you never heard of my training organisation, school or college then here is the link, check them out. That's the reason there are links on my website. Check out what I have done before you book me, check out my chemical manufacturers see there credentials, now are you more like to believe the DFC is truly green?.
If I am asked are you a member of the NCCA I will say no I haven't taken that option as yet. The NCCA should say to become a member you have to train with us and make the training fee inclusive of membership fee so everyone knows where they stand. There is no point in giving someone a certificate that they can't make reference to apart from gaining insurance to become a member of.
LETS MAKE IT CLEAR
This is my opinion as expressed by me, this is not an attack on the NCCA or any other Professional body(ies) mentioned or implied.
Simply just airing my views.
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Hi Richard
Thanks for your reply and honesty, and also for accepting my criticism in the way it was intended ie constructively.
It's great to see how your business model is laid out and developing and I wish you every success. Being near(ish) neighbours, if you need any help, just give me a call.
I think you've probably provided too much information in your post, so for security reasons it may be wise to limit it to a general geographical location such as a general Smethwick (or is it Smerrick ;) )
Depending on when you took your NCCA training, it's validity for membership application may have expired. However, being an IICRC registrant, if you have the CCT and UFT certification, as long as you are currently registered, that will allow you to qualify for NCCA Membership. For myself, I am a former NCCA Director, but am still active and I'm the Regional Officer for the West Midlands, so I can deal with most local members queries.
As an aside, I used to go to George Dixon's on City Road when it was a proper Grammar School. Strangely, so did Uncle Keith, but he's a LOT older than me :D Also, I've done quite a bit of work on the Bellway Homes site off City Road, well, I did when they were busy and selling houses. Now it looks more like a ghost town.
I'll be at the NEC in March probably every day, so Keith will be spending some time with Chemspec Europe, I may be doing a little bit of cover for breaks etc on the NCCA stand, so please make yourself known.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Hi again Richard
I, and most others here, totally agree with much of what you have just said above. Believe me, many boardroom hours have been spent on this very topic.
If anyone here was to seriously research and cost a plan to put your thoughts, and those similar thoughts of others, into practice, you would begin to see the immense scale and complications of implementing such a project. This topic is well discussed here and elsewhere too, and the closest anyone has come to a workable format is a proposal put forward a few years ago my my valued colleague and dear friend Derek Bolton. As with many things in life though, it is the cost that could be the final stumbling block. Because of various factors, policing would impose a prohibitive cost on the individual members, so honesty and goodwill would probably still be a factor in the scheme. But we keep on trying.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Richard,
Well expressed. Requests were made of you, and you answered fully, in an honest way.
You can't say fairer than that.
I wish you success in your endeavours in the industry.
Jim G
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Richard I like your free room offer 13 sq feet if I was in your area i would get you to come and clean my toliet
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Hi Guys
Provided you are honest then I cannot see a problem.
If you were trained by the NCCA and that is all you say , then you have done nothing wrong, you could even specify the year if you want to be crystal clear.
Cheers
Doug
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Cant see you on IICRC certified firms register though, only certified firms are meant to use their logo.
http://www.iicrc.co.uk/pages/reg-cleaners.htm
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I Have just put a search into google in my local area . came across 3 company's using the NCCA logo . on there website's . then checked on the NCCA website not 1 of them listed . Am I paying £250 a year for nothing
John
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John
I see a few cleaners that have hed the ncca sign on there van maybe there membership has elapsed ???
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Ken
I for one was led to believe that you could not use the terms "trained by the NCCA " or " trained to NCCA standards" if you weren't a member.
Bob
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I Have just put a search into google in my local area . came across 3 company's using the NCCA logo . on there website's . then checked on the NCCA website not 1 of them listed . Am I paying £250 a year for nothing
John
Email the NCCA - they will take it up, let them check things out.
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Bob
I'm not quoting the law, but I reckon you could claim to be trained TO any "standard" in the world, as there is no legislation to prevent this. That's why regulation might be a good thing for the industry, as, under regulation, it becomes a requirement to supply evidence to the monitoring body.
To claim you were trained BY an organisation when you were not, or even when you had failed to maintain your registration, is most definitely illegal.
That's why I've never bothered to display any affiliations over the years, or make any claims, although I did the IICRC training with Paul Pearce last century and have attended many other training days and courses.
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Cant see you on IICRC certified firms register though, only certified firms are meant to use their logo.
http://www.iicrc.co.uk/pages/reg-cleaners.htm
Goldfinch shows up quite clearly as a registered member when I went onto that link
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Hey Ian
Nice one, I would clean your toilet if it was the right size, (that's the whole idea - the box room), but if you have a toilet that big then CC does work - you live in a mansion. ;D
Anyway my customer doesn't loose the customer gets a discount, because if they have no room that size I deduct that size from the size of their smallest room. It is a honest offer in all it's intentions.
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Craigp
Check the IICRC site, the address is 10b Cleveland Park Avenue, E17. I could only show one address so I kept it in London.
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Some clarification.
There is nothing illegal with stating that you are trained by the NCCA.
However, if you were to re-read one of my earlier posts, I refer to a document which many delegates attending NCCA Training Courses sign, whereby, in one of the paragraphs, they agree NOT to use any reference to the NCCA without being a paid up member. This can be legally enforced.
The name National Carpet Cleaners Association and the NCCA logo are registered trade marks and use without permission can, and does, lead to prosecution.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Sorry I forgot to say good morning earlier guys.
What a lovely Sunday morning, no snow and it's not freezing.
I understand the concerns of members and none members of the NCCA, Ken has a point, the cost of making the changes needed to secure the industry is very high. But, wouldn't it be nice if we had a corgi style regulated industry? The NCCA could developed a certificate alongside the IICRC, woolsafe and BICSc and make it mandatory like a corgi registration. More drastic? Try this - you can't get insurance for a car without a license, so, you shouldn't be able to get insurance for CC if you aren't a member of the NCCA/IICRC. (DON'T SHOOT JUST AN IDEA) ??? - I wasn't drinking last night.
Ken, what if more CC where encouraged to be a part of the NCCA with the aim of achieving what I mentioned above? It would benefit all the members on this forum in more ways than one, one key benefit would be the willingness of CC to take pricing and customer care seriously and value there service a lot more. All the custies would expect a standard and we all would be obliged to uphold that standard.
I was surprise to know how many members the NCCA really have, compared to the number of CC out there working. I feel there could be huge benefits if we all joined and made the organisation stronger, creating a very strong collective force. Then the lone rangers would stop and take notice and realise that they have to toe the line or live in exile without any credibility. We could do more individually to educate our custies, making them aware of the organisation we are all a part of. The NCCA could supply us with literature (free of charge) that explains itself to our custies and we could hand them out and say thank you when we collect the cash, card or cheque.
THE CRY FOR CHANGE
Ladies and gentlemen from this beautiful Sunday 25 January 2009 lets no longer bash the NCCA/IICRC or it's members. From today fellow CCs let us work together to achieve what was once considered impossible. The unity of all CCs, striving to create a force that is recognisable from Lands End to Timbuktu, a force that cannot be terminated, rotated or weakened, a force that will secure our bread and guarantee our futures, a force that will guarantee that all our custies strong, frail, young or old will receive at all times the highest possible care and service. We have seen the Gas, Electric, Transport, Manufacturing and other Service Industries all create their forces and they work effectively, so I ask you this, Why can't the Carpet Cleaning Industry do the same? Lets rally our teams, lets send out the message to other forums, let all ears listen and all eyes read, because unless we act now and act in unity these stormy waters might overcome us. My fellow CCs let us consider the possibilities, the benefits and the requirements. Let's create a thread that lives at the top of this forum, a thread that display, not our negative energy but the our positive energy, lets make suggestions that leads to solutions, ideas that leads to ingenious inventions, lets be original, lets be creative, lets be effective. Let us not see regulation as red tape, let us not see education or re-education as loss of income, let us share knowledge and encourage best practices at all times. Dear forum, let 2009 be the year that we actually see change.
Good day to you all.
Let me upset a few more CCs...
The standards would include neatness and tidiness of your vans front and rear. No more thinking - "the custie never comes in or close to the van so no need to worry about the inside".
thank god my uncle doesn't read this forum, I would get an ear full for this, if he cleared out all the empty crystal green tubs out the van, hmm, then again lets leave him, we would need extra land fill sites. Just a thought guys, these tubs makes great flower pots, and will last a long time, they can be decorated and remember to pierce the bottoms. Another money saving tip from MacDonalds.
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Hi Guys
Goldfinch, a nice sentiment but far too bureaucratic for the likes of me.
I like the idea that I can communicate with my customers directly, without any reference to somebody elses or even worse, a committee's set of rules. The internet allows me to do this and it is not something I would give up.
Cheers
Doug
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Some clarification.
There is nothing illegal with stating that you are trained by the NCCA.
However, if you were to re-read one of my earlier posts, I refer to a document which many delegates attending NCCA Training Courses sign, whereby, in one of the paragraphs, they agree NOT to use any reference to the NCCA without being a paid up member. This can be legally enforced.
The name National Carpet Cleaners Association and the NCCA logo are registered trade marks and use without permission can, and does, lead to prosecution.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
does everyone realise the full ramification of this?
if you have signed that document you can never mention the ##### I have to use '#' because to type they word is leaving me open to prosecution, as I'm not a paid up member of the ####
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sorry!!!I've just realised I never signed that document so can say 'NCCA'
pity all those people that did sign :-\
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Hi Guys
Mike you could probably argue a restriction on trade, even if you did sign, just say you were new and the implications were not clearly explained, unenforceable in court in my view.
Cheers
Doug
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Mike behave yourself.
You don't have to preach the NCCA, just a leaflet so if the custie wants to they can read it, the guy that service my boiler don't tell me about corgi, I just know as a customer he must have it. I don't care what corgi says he has to do, neither will our custies, all they know is if you aren't a member of this body then you are probably crap/illegal/cow boy or girl or person. In that case they won't risk having a crap job on there carpets etc.
LISTEN I SAID PROBABLY - So don't crucify me ;D
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This G/F is where it falls down, because the assumptiom that membership of an associaton, or having in their possession,training certificates will NEVER guarantee the holder will deliver quality...............and that is an unfortunate fact.
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sorry!!!I've just realised I never signed that document so can say 'NCCA'
pity all those people that did sign :-\
Mike/Ken
Was this signed form introduced a few years after people had already done the training? I remember the form when I did the course.
Bob
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Robert
That is so very true, but a real professional would not fall foul of his duties. Imagine a corgi engineer does something incorrectly not by human error but trying to cut corners or even poor customer care or poor after care and something went wrong. Think of the consequence(s).
Airlines without ABTA - anything goes wrong you loose your money.
Even though as a governing body you can't guarantee someone will act responsibly, you can make clear what is expected of them (minimal) and what rights the customer has. Not just these things but you can see where I am going. Governing bodies could promote the industry in a positive way, become a household name like ABTA, Corgi and others. Think of the support you get from the governing body imagine a customer getting it wrong and insisting it's your fault. Plus all the other business +s
Mention carpet protection to anyone and if they ever thought of it the first name that comes to there mind is Scotch Guard, what we I would like is for the term carpet cleaning to be mentioned and everyone think NCCA, lets look at there site first.
A governing body isn't the solution to all CC's problems but it's a step in the right direction.
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Hi Guys
ABTA is an insurance scheme, doesn't reflect quaility.
Corgi is a gas certification scheme, doesn't cover plumbers only gas engineers, although a lot do both.
This discussion has come up lots of times before but unless their is a safety aspect to CC , then there will be no regualtion, why should there be ?
Cheers
Doug
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G/F
I've worked under regulation before and it's................time consuming
frustrating
expensive
and worst of all ...............allows the SMART operators to appear to comply and carry out everything to the " requirements"and shows up in many cases the company or individual who is NOT interested in pedantic form filling, but has a determination to DELIVER THE BEST POSSIBLE SERVICE and value for money.
This is really what happens, I am currently updating reams of Regulations / Risk Assessments / Policies and Procedures, etc, for our other business and that is truly what regulation is about.
Oh..................It also costs us £2000 a year to be regulated. Yes, you pay the Regulatory board to regulate YOU
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Doug
Lets put the regulations aside for a sec.
How would you best suggest the Industry is promoted so that CCs can continue to make a living. Customers or more importantly potential customers are aware of what Carpet Cleaning is, how we go about it and the benefits.
I just feel that in times like these where CC isn't going to be No.1 priority for the majority, more needs to be done to highlight the industry. TV is doing it's little bit with those dirty house reality shows but more needs to be done.
Wouldn't it be good if we had a strongly supported body that could go out there and shout on our behalf?
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This thread has actually change in nature, so I have a site I want everyone to see and say whether or not this is how they would like the NCCA to be. So I am going to start this new thread.
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sorry!!!I've just realised I never signed that document so can say 'NCCA'
pity all those people that did sign :-\
Mike/Ken
Was this signed form introduced a few years after people had already done the training? I remember the form when I did the course.
Bob
Ken
Maybe you missed this Question.
Bob
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I think it was being used when I joined the board about 2004(?)
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Cheers Ken
If It was Established in 1968 there could be a lot of people who haven't signed it.
Goldfinch
You have the name of the NCCA at the bottom of every post. When I see this I would presume that the person was a member or giving the impression that they are.
Goldfinch PCS
0845 644 0676
NCCA IICRC LTT PROmite
www.goldfinchpcs.co.uk
Bob