Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: pingu on January 14, 2009, 07:24:15 pm
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Could some with God like knowledge of RO water creating please give me a quick idiots guide to the pros and cons of a 300gpd ro-man system verses a 4040 system.
Many thanks
Dave.
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Could some with God like knowledge of RO water creating please give me a quick idiots guide to the pros and cons of a 300gpd ro-man system verses a 4040 system.
Many thanks
Dave.
300 gpd should not be meationed in the same breath as a 4040
300gpd is slow at providing water, 4040 kicks it out add a booster pump to the 4040 and you would not be able to use the water it makes fast enough, where a 300gpd with booster is still slower than a 4040 on a standard tap, this is what I have found, I started with a 4040 and now have 2, I bought 300gpd and merlin to see the difference so I can learn and educate others ;)
Go for a 4040 ;)
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Thanks for your reply....anymore for anymore?
Without a pump I have around 50-50 water pressure. So how much water could I look at creating say at 7 deg.
In the mean time, shall move over to the ro-man site and look for some answers.
Cheers Dave.
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Thanks for your reply....anymore for anymore?
Cheers Dave.
is that a polite way of saying my opinion does not count ???lol
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On a good day a 4 x 40 will kick out about 250 - 300 lts an hour with a booster pump. My water in is around 325ppm water out is around 004ppm.
On a cold day this will drop a bit but 200lts an hour is still pretty quick.
Dennis
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On a good day a 4 x 40 will kick out about 250 - 300 lts an hour with a booster pump. My water in is around 325ppm water out is around 004ppm.
On a cold day this will drop a bit but 200lts an hour is still pretty quick.
Dennis
with a booster pump I have had 8l pm and my tds is 470+ I guess it depends on the pump you get, on tap pressure its about 4.5 hours for 650 in tank though di so pure
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Sorry Windowwashers I did not mean to brush you off or give that impression...sorry ;)
Dennis are your output figures reduced in the colder days?
I originally bought a 100gpd system from Andrew McCann (top bloke) in 06 and upgraded until it is now a 300gpd...but have experiance these cold days...and having had my outside storage froze so much that it is still frozen with my transfer pump still encased in it...I would like a way of producing water and quickly when I need to...and I just do not want to have to dedicate so much space to water storage.
Cheers
Dave
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I want the idiots guide like pingu.
i know what a 100 200 and 300 gpd are, but whats a merlin, a 4040, and what I have a 40' ro. can anyone tell us in simple terms?
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Oh yes...simple please and small words would be a bonus ;D
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I want the idiots guide like pingu.
i know what a 100 200 and 300 gpd are, but whats a merlin, a 4040, and what I have a 40' ro. can anyone tell us in simple terms?
explain what you want to know and I will tell you what I knwo about it, I have had all of them , Clive you have a 4040 now
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Okay so mines a 4040 this has three pre filters and a 40' bazooka thing, so what's a merlin then ?
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So really a 4040 is just the name or type of membrane. Looking at Gaps website they say "Production will vary according to water pressure and temperature (typical production rates are from 80 to 200 litres per hour). Typical rejection is 98%."
So this would seem to be an ideal solution to stop having loads of water sta around in storage and taking up room.
Question:
Do you really need a 8litre ++++ vessel for resin or could I just keep my 750ml one that came with my 100gpd system...?
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Mine (4040)cost £523 inc vat.
i believe a 300gpd is towards £300
basic booster pump £80, good one £300.
I ran my good pump outdoors for 18 months and broke it. I had an electical problem on the cheap one. Leaving electrical stuff on overnight or when i was out working was always a worry.
As mr oakley said, i had pipes blow off a few times.
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When you say booster pump would you mean something like this?
http://www.cleantech.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_26&products_id=70
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Mine (4040)cost £523 inc vat.
i believe a 300gpd is towards £300
basic booster pump £80, good one £300.
I ran my good pump outdoors for 18 months and broke it. I had an electical problem on the cheap one. Leaving electrical stuff on overnight or when i was out working was always a worry.
As mr oakley said, i had pipes blow off a few times.
Its Matt ;D
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Clive this is a Merlin
(http://www.ro-man.com/shop/images/merlin.jpg)
http://www.ro-man.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/22_94/products_id/130
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There are a few matts.
there aren't any booster pumps there's a world shortage. That's what i phoned up for and arkwright sold me the 4040 instead. ??? ;D
thanks for the pic. There are four connections inlet, pure, waste, and.....?
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Does anyone use the h5-4040 Ultratec that is for sub 50psi water pressure (no pump required) and what do you think of this and what would you say is your rejection/waste rate ?
Cheers
Dave.
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These are still available, this is what I got yesterday.
http://www.windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/shop/index.php/RO-Systems/RO-BOOSTER-PUMP.html
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Thats the exact one i had.
not much on pressure pingu but if you have a meter on your 300 as i do.
mains with no pump halfway into the yellow.
Pump in picture into blue
good pump into red.
There were differences in production times. With this 4040 thing water gushes out just off mains.
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So Matt would that pump be fine for a 4040 system?
Cheers
Dave.
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This one i know.
no because it has the same thin little pipes as a 300gpd (the red and blue ones), my good pump had hoselock on that were converted down.
So while the pressure might be okay, the flow wouldn't.
But i already mentioned, if you had one you wouldn't need a booster. Thats what i foound so surprising and made me feel a mug for the last two years. If you notice the other guys have been saying we told you so.
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This is the one for a 4040 Dave http://www.ro-man.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/28/products_id/245
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So really a 4040 is just the name or type of membrane. Looking at Gaps website they say "Production will vary according to water pressure and temperature (typical production rates are from 80 to 200 litres per hour). Typical rejection is 98%."
So this would seem to be an ideal solution to stop having loads of water sta around in storage and taking up room.
Question:
Do you really need a 8litre ++++ vessel for resin or could I just keep my 750ml one that came with my 100gpd system...?
you could keep the one you have you just would be changing it often, i have 2 18l vessels as it saves on resin and also I dont have to mess about with it very often, when I get a place for business I will go to 25l vessals x 3 will save time in the long run.
you can pick up second hand vessals cheap enough
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Those 700ml vessels to be honest are total pants IMO, not worth th eplastic theyre made from. Invest in at least a couple of 7 litre ones off e-bay; the resin usage THEN is much more efficient and cost-effective.
Matt
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have used 300 gpd ro-man..... for two years.. set up in the van..... fills 650 litre tank up over night.... connected to standad hose pipe...... comes out at 000...
never had any problems apart from it running a little slow when filters need changing....
lucky though my tap water is around 100tds...so no need for a pump.
dont want water tanks everywhere or resin to buy.... have a 10" di vessel.... never once had to put it on.... am i lucky :D.
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have used 300 gpd ro-man..... for two years.. set up in the van..... fills 650 litre tank up over night.... connected to standad hose pipe...... comes out at 000...
never had any problems apart from it running a little slow when filters need changing....
lucky though my tap water is around 100tds...so no need for a pump.
dont want water tanks everywhere or resin to buy.... have a 10" di vessel.... never once had to put it on.... am i lucky :D.
yes you are very very very very lucky Gazza :o
I wish I had that
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Bo to hijack but it's really good to see you back and active on here Ian :)
Dave.. A very worthwhile call or email to June at Gapswater << google that will get you all the answers you need. You won't get pressured to buy and you will get probably the best informed advice available anywhere regarding the larger RO systems for window cleaners.
That membrane you mentioned should do away with the need for a booster pump unless you have really low water pressure.
In simple terms a 40 inch RO system works exactly the same way as your 300 gpd but in much larger scale.
Andrew
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Bo to hijack but it's really good to see you back and active on here Ian :)
Dave.. A very worthwhile call or email to June at Gapswater << google that will get you all the answers you need. You won't get pressured to buy and you will get probably the best informed advice available anywhere regarding the larger RO systems for window cleaners.
That membrane you mentioned should do away with the need for a booster pump unless you have really low water pressure.
In simple terms a 40 inch RO system works exactly the same way as your 300 gpd but in much larger scale.
Andrew
Cheers Andrew ;), back to helping and moving forward now. Tis not often i take my eye off the ball for this long so to speak,
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Thanks again to all for your info and esp nice to see you back hear Andrew...
Dave.
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So at the moment....my 300gpd unit turn 275 tds into 001, then it goes through a small di vessel and magic.....it is 000ppm tds...so in theory a h5-4040 will have an output about the same then?...so if that is the case I should not need to buy additional di vessels as the current one I have should be man enough to remove 001ppm....
Cheers
Dave.
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Question:
Do you really need a 8litre ++++ vessel for resin or could I just keep my 750ml one that came with my 100gpd system...?
you can use your existing vessel ( 750 ml ) it will just need changing more often as the amount of water you run though it will of course increase
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Would it? Is he going to make more water or just make it faster? (can't be bothered to read the whole post) ;D
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So at the moment....my 300gpd unit turn 275 tds into 001, then it goes through a small di vessel and magic.....it is 000ppm tds...so in theory a h5-4040 will have an output about the same then?...so if that is the case I should not need to buy additional di vessels as the current one I have should be man enough to remove 001ppm....
Cheers
Dave.
No sorry it won't be big enough Dave.
The 40 inch system produces FAR more water than your 300 GPD. The flow rate would be too much for that DI to have time to remove TDS completely.
You would need one of the larger DI vessels. The benefit for you is that you will hardly ever need to refill it.
Andrew
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Andrew what would you say is the maximum operating pressure for a 300 gpd RO Man system? Is over 100psi okay or would you say thats the max?
Also does flushing at higher pressure give a more thorough flush?
Matt
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Okey dokey pig in a pokey...I have written to GAPS as per you suggestion and I am sure they will get back to me in the near future.
So what would the best size be..given that my normal usage per day would be around 325 litres per day...
Thanks
Dave.
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Andrew what would you say is the maximum operating pressure for a 300 gpd RO Man system? Is over 100psi okay or would you say thats the max?
Also does flushing at higher pressure give a more thorough flush?
Matt
125 PSI is the max recommended operating pressure. 100 is more than enough for it to operate at max efficiency.
Yeah I suppose flushing at high pressure is a bit better but it won't really make much of a difference.
Andrew
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Okey dokey pig in a pokey...I have written to GAPS as per you suggestion and I am sure they will get back to me in the near future.
So what would the best size be..given that my normal usage per day would be around 325 litres per day...
Thanks
Dave.
A 30.. ish inch would be great Dave... it takes around a full bag of resin so you would probably only have to refill it every year or two :)
BTW they are a bit of a pain to empty and refill.
A good source for resin and vessels is DA Services. Doug is a member here and many buy from him. He does good size vessels which take about half a bag of resin.
You can get a link to his site from my site.
Andrew
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Hi all...I have written to those loverly peeps at GAPS and asked a load of geeky questions about the H4-4040 & H5-4040 Membrane r/o systems and this is what came back...please remember that this information is all approximate.
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It is very easy to give figures for small domestic RO membranes as they were designed to work at tap pressure and therefore have lots of facts and figures provided by the manufacturers for different pressures and temperatures - the larger 4" x 40" membranes however are not really designed to work without a pump although the window cleaning profession have been doing just that for over a decade so the information given by the manufacturers is limited, even using computer models it is assumed you are designing a pumped system so it is difficult to work backwards, fortunately I'm dab hand at extrapolating data so do have some figures to give you a ball park idea of what you can expect.
With a HF4-4040 at 250 ppm NaCl water at 50 psi and 20C you can expect to get around 160 litres per hour, at 16C this drops to about 140 litres per hour and at 10C this drop to 130 litres per hour. The HF5-4040 will produce at least 30% more.
Rejection at 50 psi will be about 93 - 95% so you can expect a tds of about 12 to 20 ppm depending on water chemistry and individual membrane performance.
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Cheers
Dave.
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Andrew what would you say is the maximum operating pressure for a 300 gpd RO Man system? Is over 100psi okay or would you say thats the max?
Also does flushing at higher pressure give a more thorough flush?
Matt
125 PSI is the max recommended operating pressure. 100 is more than enough for it to operate at max efficiency.
Yeah I suppose flushing at high pressure is a bit better but it won't really make much of a difference.
Andrew
Thanks Andrew.
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Told you June @ Gapswater knows her stuff Dave :)
Andrew