Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Sir Squeaky on January 09, 2009, 02:08:41 pm
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I was back at work today with Ian's Iso-pro.. stuff in the water.
However after about 1pm my pump kept cutting out.
I switch the varistream back on and the pumps grinds slowly for 3 seconds and switches off.
Now I had this happen before, and it turned out to be a flat battery, so I used the jump leads and it still cut straight out.
So...I disconnected the hose from the reel and water pumped out fast continuously. ???
So I'm guessing I've got a freeze-up somewhere in the hose. ???
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I was out there today and after about 12.00 I noticed icicles forming on my brush-head, the whole adaptor was solid in ice ;D
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Yep that iso stuff don't do much for me last three days been frozen solid.
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You obviously need more of it.
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How much more do you think . I put 300ml into about 200ltr
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How much more do you think . I put 300ml into about 200ltr
I dont use it, but there is a website somewhere with how to work out how much you need at certain temps per litre..
Im sure Jeff Brimble knows..
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How much more do you think . I put 300ml into about 200ltr
Apparently you need a 20% solution, so in 200 litres of water you'd need 40 litres of iso ;D
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This one?
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ispropanol-water-d_988.html
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This one?
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ispropanol-water-d_988.html
i think thats it.How much more do you think . I put 300ml into about 200ltr
Apparently you need a 20% solution, so in 200 litres of water you'd need 40 litres of iso ;D
thats dependant on the temp you are using it at. So what temp is that with?
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Sorry don't no what the temp is on each day, just freezing cold and frozen pipes. The weather man said 0 last night and this morning it was colder than that defrost the pipe at 9.30 froze straight back up again.had another go just after 1015 and they where ok for the rest of the day. The iso stuff might of help from then on but can't say for sure.
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Would methanol work just as well as iso and I have around 500litres of that!!!
Looking at htt p://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/methanol-water-d_987.html it looks about the same as iso
so looking at :
htt p://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/freeze-protection-d_1155.html
Would the 500litres of methanol I have sat in my garage be better spent in my wfp tank...ps methanol is much cheaper that iso.....I have it as I make biodiesel...
Would any of the real brain boxes be able to shed some light...tommorow I shall do a couple of tests using 1%, 5% 10%, 15% and 20% concentrations to see if it is ok on the glass.
Cheers
Dave.
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Not cost effective to use all the time, I have used it the last couple of days. got 25 litres for £30. have used it at 10%. Get lots of people telling you this and that but 10% is the min really. Having said that, if the ground temp is still well below freezing you may need to use a bit more.
Oh and if you are employing people there is also a health and safety issue, esp in how you store it. prob best to get a hot system in the long run if we get reg cold snaps like this
tom
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Sorry Tom are you using iso or methanol?
Cheers
Dave.
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Meths and resin might not get on together - i don't know. Not sure about the pump internals either.
Although it's used in glass cleaner.
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This one?
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ispropanol-water-d_988.html
i think thats it.How much more do you think . I put 300ml into about 200ltr
Apparently you need a 20% solution, so in 200 litres of water you'd need 40 litres of iso ;D
thats dependant on the temp you are using it at. So what temp is that with?
Good point Chris, its just what Ive read on here as suggestions from those who've used it successfully.
Matt
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I have just been out into the shed and filled 3x bottles with 1litre of water and placed 10%, 15% and 20% of methanol into the bottles and left them in the garden ...the temp at 18:22 is now -5.6 so we'll see in the morning.
I know that the indy 500 cars all run on methanol but thats not to say it's good for our pumps.
Cheers Dave.
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When i used it i found that the water still ran through the pipes but the Y piece froze it was still free flowing through the hosereel though.In conditions like they`ve been this week the only thing that will keep you constantly working is hot water.
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Re: Why use Isopropanol?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2008, 09:40:59 PM »
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It`s as good as hot water in the sense that you can keep working in the cold weather,like i say that job i did before without it everything froze on me, next time the same job even colder and nothing froze only my nose lol.
Not another U turn NWH?
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You should change your name to witch hunter mate,it did keep me working and i wasn`t having a go at anyone i was just saying what happened on the said day.Even with hot water the Y pieces will freeze if you leave the pole in the shade for to long but the hot will defrost the lot in seconds,say something informative and worthwhile rather than trawling through the archives looking to make me look stupid.
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When i used it i found that the water still ran through the pipes but the Y piece froze it was still free flowing through the hosereel though.In conditions like they`ve been this week the only thing that will keep you constantly working is hot water.
That's exactly where I reckon it happened!
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All you need to do is take of the hose at the Y piece and blow it out and push it back on and your be working again,like i say it did happen to me but it only froze at the Y piece.
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Re: Why use Isopropanol?
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2008, 10:17:48 PM »
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Quote from: Pj on March 04, 2008, 10:15:35 PM
I thought you had a hot water system NWH?
To be honest with this stuff i don`t think i need one.
Ok i'll make this the last one. ;D ............. tonight.
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Cheese of bell end.
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If this test does go ok...I'll do a TDS test in the morning...
Just been reading the Methanol MSDS infomation which makes for good reading.
Cheers
Dave.
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Sorry Tom are you using iso or methanol?
Cheers
Dave.
Hi Dave
Been using IPA .
Tom
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Updated@23:09 outside temp is -7.7 deg
10% Methanol mix - Unfrozen
15% Methanol mix - Unfrozen
20% Methanol mix - Unfrozen
*made up a 2.5% and a 5% mix and placed them out at 23:29 outside temp was -7.7
Have left a control of normal tap water and that froze very early on...
All mixes are with tap water around 240tds and 1litre of water was placed into a 1.5l coke bottle and then the required mix was entered into each bottle using a 20ml syringe grauated in 1ml increments from 1 to 20.
Cheers and goodnight all
Dave.
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Updated@08:52(next morning) outside temp is -10.3 deg
*2.5% methanol mix - Like a fresh slush puppy, movable but very granular.
*5% Methanol mix - Like a runny slush puppy (still has a slight ice like structure)
10% Methanol mix - Unfrozen
15% Methanol mix - Unfrozen
20% Methanol mix - Unfrozen
*made up a 2.5% and a 5% mix and placed them out at 23:29 outside temp was -7.7
The 10, 15 and 20% mixes were place out lastnight at aprox 18:30
The 2.5 &5% mix were placed outside at 23:29.
Note to self ...try a 7.5% mix tonight.
So looking at:
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htt p://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ispropanol-water-d_988.html
htt p://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/methanol-water-d_987.html
So given that this experiment is not Noble prize type stuff but a reasonable experiment...putting a coke can full into 400litres I do not think is going to cut it...
so were talking about 10's of litres for most of our tanks guys not ml's...
Hope my back-garden rough and ready helps a little.
Cheers
Dave.
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Yep, sixty five litres of the stuff to cover you to minus ten in a 650 ltr tank. Not quite the same as a whisky glass full is it?
Best way is prevention first then heat. On another forum there is a guy with a Thermopure system who couldn't work after a night of -9. I don't think there is a chance in the kind of conditions you've got over there Dave.
My screen wash is about 80% in my vans washer bottle and that's still freezing at the jets.
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Personally I think these mixes are great for when the weather jumps around the minus mark..but when we have -10 night and -2 to -4 daytime temps...thawing is just not occuring..I am no scientist but this is when we have to make some serious judgements as to whe we start working again...
I am lucky I squirreld away a large amount last year so I am living off my "nuts" so to speak.
Like you say even those with Hot will struggle with the ground surface temps...Yesterday I threw some tap water over my windows (double glazed) and alot of it froze as droplets and is still there (next day), but with this said I do think that there is a very serious place for hot systems and I will struggle through this cold period and investigate further in the year.
Cheers and good luck to all...am off out to do some quotes now... ;D
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Just made up a batch of 10% methanol mix with pure water and the tds remained the same...which is good news...
So tonight:
2.5% methanol mix -
5% Methanol mix -
7.5% Methanol mix (this is a new test)
10% Methanol mix -
15% Methanol mix -
20% Methanol mix -
All have been brought inside so as to start them off as full liquids and I shall see what happens in the morning.
I am hoping that the 7.5% mix will suffice to -10 temps (which we expect this evening) temp is now -4.7 at 13:37 but I suspect that 10% will be required.
Freezing Point of Methanol based Water Solutions
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Freezing Point Methanol Concentration
(% by mass) 0 10 20 30 40 50 60
Temperature oC 0 -7 -18 -26 -40 -54 -71
If anyone pipes up and asks about evapouration...to be truthfull I do not have a scooby doo... :P I believe the above figures are based upon a sealed system so when the water shoots out the brush head onto the glass and floor...I have no clue how long it takes to evaporate at a given temp and or % mix.
Cheers
Dave.
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I am lucky I squirreld away a large amount last year so I am living off my "nuts" so to speak.
;D ;D ;D
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Ok 2nd tests....@17:06 outside temp is -6
Control - tap water
2.5% Methanol mix -
5% Methanol mix -
7.5% Methanol mix (new)
10% Methanol mix -
15% Methanol mix -
20% Methanol mix -
Lets see what happens this evening...were expecting temps down to -11 so the tv has just said.
I suspect that the 2.5, 5 will all freeze but the7.5% will remain for the most part liquid and the 10, 15 and 20% mixes will remain in a completely liquid state.
Cheers
Dave.
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@07:15 it was -7.7 and here are the results of last nights tests.
Control - tap water FRI
2.5% Methanol mix - Like a weak slush puppy but still with ice formation throughout
5% Methanol mix - Mix starting to take a thicker consistancy but not icey
7.5% Methanol mix (new) - Still liquid throughout
10% Methanol mix - Still liquid throughout
15% Methanol mix - Still liquid throughout
20% Methanol mix - Still liquid throughout
So a few windows will be cleaned today and I'll see..
Cheers
Dave.
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So 7.5% of meths would be 48.75 litres for a 650l tank at -7 . Pretty scarey quantities there, probably enough to damage paintwork perhaps?
Thats still less than the isopropanol chart too. Probably kill off any plant life under the windows and leave trails of dead grass over the lawn. :)
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Both IPA and Methanol both both very toxic liquids but the great thing about methanol is that it will continue to dilute indefinalty.
But yes I see and take note of your comment.
Cheers
Dave.
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We used isopropanol in the print trade at around 12%. It's quite a high dilution rate and i wouldn't want that in my eyes and wouldn't fancy inhaling the stuff, it won't evaporate so fast in freezing temperatures.
It might work ok - you'll be the first at those rates. Last year a couple on here were claiming miracles at a percentage of less than .007%!!!
Alcohol will tend to float on water too unless mixed well so if you are drawing from the bottom of a static tank the mix could be very week.
Let us know what you do.
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I have another 30litre tank with a tube and valve that I will have going into the van tank whilst the clean water is being pumped in..this 'should' do the mixing for me...
But before that I am going to create a 10% mix in a 25 litre barrel and do the windows at the back of my house and see what happens.
Yes now looking at this I cannot see how some of the minute amounts that have been claimed on here work...but saying that if the morning temp was around -2 or -3 and gear was resonably insulated even if that was just the air buffer in the van and then the daytime temps rose then I would imagine some would think that their mix was doing the business.
Cheers
Dave.
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I have just mixed up a 5% mix of methanol to wfp water and the tds remained the same...gave it a jolly good mix and put it on the Freedom trolley and away I went...
Well the water hit the glass and I could hear a crunchy sound within seconds...the water was freezing instantly...
So I put another 5% in...now 10% total again TDS remained 000 and gave the back door and side glass a go..well that seems to have done the trick..just waiting for them to dry a little...oh and pure water just freezes on impact.
I also did the front door and front window which is on the sunny side and this seems to be drying well and looking good....but working in -5 well I do not think I will do that for my customers....looking at this all now...I think that theses additives are good for -2 and -3 nights and temps that rise during the day...but continued -5 to -12 nights and continued -2 to -6 days..well I shall continue to squirrel money away during the year soley to tide me over....plus the snow we have had here has just not been able to thaw and for the most part the surrouding floor around my house is ice.
The outside temp -5.7 and the pure water before the mixing was 10deg, the inside temp in my house is 21 deg.
I have also left the freedom trolly outside just to see what happens to the pole, brush etc.
Will update in half an hour....note to self..I promise to get a life at some stage this year ;D
Cheers
Dave.
ps..Ftp your bang on the money re have it all good and mixed..simply pour the IPA or Methanol in will not serve any great purpose... oh and you'll need greater concentrations of IPA as well.
So if anyone is thinking of using IPA or something similar don't bother with 20l tubs...go to a proper chemical dealer and order by the 205l barrals. It will be cheaper too.