Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: chrisyg on January 02, 2009, 04:23:14 pm
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I know there is so many L5 users out there.
What i want to know, how easy is your insurance company for the addition of the L5 and a Gas Cannister in your Van/Car.. or are you all just doing it without telling?
Just seemed to be so many posts about the subject but non actually carry it on with what it costs them extra in insurance.. if it actually does.
So many new guys come on here to look about, without actually thinking about the effects of such a potential problem..
How many of you are actually using it without declaring its use to your insurance company?
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There could well be a problem with insurance, I have been in contact with CORGI and it is an issue they raised.
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There could well be a problem with insurance, I have been in contact with CORGI and it is an issue they raised.
what was the issue? I know David Slater has done his own research on this and come up with no problems, however im yet to follow his research with my own.
Surely not all the L5 users have followed this type of in depth research, documented it and taken it to their insurance.
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There could well be a problem with insurance, I have been in contact with CORGI and it is an issue they raised.
Don't worry about Corgi, it will be Capita soon.
But why bother Corgi if it's insurance you are after, or have they started selling it now they will no longer have gas ;D
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I know there is so many L5 users out there.
What i want to know, how easy is your insurance company for the addition of the L5 and a Gas Cannister in your Van/Car.. or are you all just doing it without telling?
Just seemed to be so many posts about the subject but non actually carry it on with what it costs them extra in insurance.. if it actually does.
So many new guys come on here to look about, without actually thinking about the effects of such a potential problem..
How many of you are actually using it without declaring its use to your insurance company?
How many are using it without telling the insurance company,i`ll tell you all of them if there being honest.If you were to ring your insurance company and tell them exactly what your doing and how it`s fitted your insurance would be void 100%.How many users on here disconnect it everytime they drive to the next job,none i bet how many have it swinging from the back door like i did or have it actually in the van ie enclosed space,all of the above are wrong and wouldn`t qualifiy for insurance.
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They might ring them and tell them there carrying a gas bottle but i`ll bet that`s all they`ve done.
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I've fully disclosed to my insurance company. "Carry on" they said,.... not a problem.
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I emailed Corgi to see if they had any issues with L5 type Setups.
Wouldn't go as far as saying there wasn't issues, but it is down to interpretation.
I for one do not feel they are safe and was concerned about the safety of them,
I still believe someone is going to end up getting hurt or causing injury to passers- by I.E a leakage of gas in a van accidentally ignited, It doesn't take much "open the van door f*g in hand and bang" its also a serious risk in an accident!
I honestly believe that someone is going to get themselves in a hell of a lot of trouble when something goes wrong.
However here is the reply I had from Corgi after voicing my concerns.
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Dear Mr.
Thank you for your e-mail and your concern.
Unfortunately, the installation of such systems is outside of The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations (GSIUR) 1998 and as such is outside of our sphere of influence.
However, any person undertaking such installations although not having to be CORGI registered must still be competent to do so and they would have a duty of care as requirement of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 to ensure the safety of the vehicle, its occupants and other people and property.
There also may be requirements from the insurer of the vehicle that to be insured the van will need to undergo a safety check on an annual basis by a competent person. This may be an approved business from the insurance company.
Any causes of concern over unsafe situations in regard to these vans then the matter should be bought to the attention of the HSE.
Yours Sincerely
David J Smith
Senior Technical Officer
djsmith@trustcorgi.com
Tel. 01256 372282
Mobile 078111 97973
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I've fully disclosed to my insurance company. "Carry on" they said,.... not a problem.
You fully disclosed that your running that in your van unsupervised and out of view from the person using it in an area where members of the public maybe walking passed,yeah right i think not.You havn`t got a hope in hell in that being insured,give me there number and i`ll tell them how your using it and see if they give me the same answer,they`d ask me if i was having a laugh.Insurance is something you have to have and the bigger the risk the bigger the premium and that`s if they`ll touch you,a good freind of mine works for Alliance and has a senior position as a broker and has informed me you would never get insured if disclosed in the exact way it`s used,anyone can ring up and tell slight porkies and still be covered or so they think until something happens.
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Andrew McCan said he looked into fitting these and was told it wouldn`t be viable for insurance reasons.
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These systems can be installed correctly and safely, and in a way that will keep your insurance company happy,... if you do some research and know what you are doing.
I fail to see the major difference between Gas & Diesel powered systems. There is still heat/flame/ignition etc. A diesel leak is just as risky as a gas leak! An incorrectly installed diesel powered heater is also deadly!
But, you're on a mission NWH, and you'll continue to make sweeping generalisations about all gas systems no matter what I say.
I'm going to quit replying to these threads when you get involved.
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These systems can be installed correctly and safely, and in a way that will keep your insurance company happy,... if you do some research and know what you are doing.
I fail to see the major difference between Gas & Diesel powered systems. There is still heat/flame/ignition etc. A diesel leak is just as risky as a gas leak! An incorrectly installed diesel powered heater is also deadly!
But, you're on a mission NWH, and you'll continue to make sweeping generalisations about all gas systems no matter what I say.
I'm going to quit replying to these threads when you get involved.
I always thought diesel needed to be compressed before being able to combust? I didn't think you could set light to it from just a flame, like you do with petrol.
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Try it,... Diesel burns quite easily & fiercely!
The urban myth the diesel will not burn when exposed to a flame is completely untrue,.. I've lit bonfires with it!
The diesel heater units do pressurise the fuel to pass through a spray jet to make it burn faster & hotter though.
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These systems can be installed correctly and safely, and in a way that will keep your insurance company happy,... if you do some research and know what you are doing.
I fail to see the major difference between Gas & Diesel powered systems. There is still heat/flame/ignition etc. A diesel leak is just as risky as a gas leak! An incorrectly installed diesel powered heater is also deadly!
But, you're on a mission NWH, and you'll continue to make sweeping generalisations about all gas systems no matter what I say.
I'm going to quit replying to these threads when you get involved.
I always thought diesel needed to be compressed before being able to combust? I didn't think you could set light to it from just a flame, like you do with petrol.
Liquid diesel or petrol is not flammable. Its the vapour thats flammable.
Diesel does not have to be compressed to ingnite although its vapour does have a higher flash point than petrol vapour.
Still could be eaily ignited from whichever motor it is running or dripping onto a hot surface such as the exhaust system. Hot days - inside vehicle temp will rise rapidly and would support flash point for diesel.
NWH,
Wasnt the reason given by Andrew McAnn H&S issues?? If we're going to quote someone I think we should do them the courtesy of not bending the truth to fit our argument ;)
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Try it,... Diesel burns quite easily & fiercely!
The urban myth the diesel will not burn when exposed to a flame is completely untrue,.. I've lit bonfires with it!
The diesel heater units do pressurise the fuel to pass through a spray jet to make it burn faster & hotter though.
thanks for the info Nath! But i wont try it.. ;)
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These systems can be installed correctly and safely, and in a way that will keep your insurance company happy,... if you do some research and know what you are doing.
What about those who haven't a clue what they are doing but will have a go anyway ?
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Surely lots of sailing yachts have similar set ups and they get bounced around at sea far more than your average van. The only boats I ever hear of with a problem is the one or so that explodes in the UK every year. Solely to leakage and build up of gas in the bilge. This doesn't apply to motor vehicles because the gas just leaks out through a hole that has been drilled in bottom of van and if no purpose built hole there are loads of holes etc in vehicles. Just in case the odd reader doesn't know. Gas is heavier than air.
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ive said it before
get a vent in the roof of your van, all the gear ( inc a electric jigsaw if you dont own 1 ) for under 30 quid , thats the vent, the sealant, the whole lot
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These systems can be installed correctly and safely, and in a way that will keep your insurance company happy,... if you do some research and know what you are doing.
What about those who haven't a clue what they are doing but will have a go anyway ?
What you mean like i did and everyone else on here,who wants to buy my other spare 1 still boxed with cheap fast fill adapter lol. ;D
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ive said it before
get a vent in the roof of your van, all the gear ( inc a electric jigsaw if you dont own 1 ) for under 30 quid , thats the vent, the sealant, the whole lot
The vent in the roof will remove the hot exhaust gases, but as paulscotney rightly says - gas is heavier than air so you need to fit a 'drop vent' (a vent under the boiler) to remove escaping gas.
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Good advice
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ive said it before
get a vent in the roof of your van, all the gear ( inc a electric jigsaw if you dont own 1 ) for under 30 quid , thats the vent, the sealant, the whole lot
The vent in the roof will remove the hot exhaust gases, but as paulscotney rightly says - gas is heavier than air so you need to fit a 'drop vent' (a vent under the boiler) to remove escaping gas.
it will help ventilate the van thats for sure
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I've 3 vents in the roof of my van,... and about 20 holes in the floor!
:)
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NWH why, just because you now have a nice 3k "safe" heater, do you feel the need to get on the backs of all the people who went along with your l5/cheap hot water ideas?
I for one have told my insurance that I have a propane water heater in my van and am carrying a gas bottle and they said "not a problem-carry on"
also, my mate is a corgi heating engineer. he's had a look at my heater and says whilst the fitting isn't up to BUILDING REGULATIONS, there is nothing dangerous about it.
my conscience is feeling pretty clear at present.
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I was also very interested to see in reply 7 on this thread (Thanks Chris) that you don't even need a Corgi installer for this kind of setup!!! Although just for my own peace of mind I'd always recommend using one.
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NWH why, just because you now have a nice 3k "safe" heater, do you feel the need to get on the backs of all the people who went along with your l5/cheap hot water ideas?
I for one have told my insurance that I have a propane water heater in my van and am carrying a gas bottle and they said "not a problem-carry on"
also, my mate is a corgi heating engineer. he's had a look at my heater and says whilst the fitting isn't up to BUILDING REGULATIONS, there is nothing dangerous about it.
my conscience is feeling pretty clear at present.
who is your insurance? Ive heard A Plan are ok with these, but it depends on what they have been told. like of the system is left alone when in operation etc.
Personally i dont see a problem using it, i just want to make sure on the insurance side it wont be a problem, so i can go ready to an insurer with all the info behind me.
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I was also very interested to see in reply 7 on this thread (Thanks Chris) that you don't even need a Corgi installer for this kind of setup!!! Although just for my own peace of mind I'd always recommend using one.
Did DIY wfp cold systems get this sort of ctisism when they first appeared?
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I was also very interested to see in reply 7 on this thread (Thanks Chris) that you don't even need a Corgi installer for this kind of setup!!! Although just for my own peace of mind I'd always recommend using one.
Did DIY wfp cold systems get this sort of ctisism when they first appeared?
Probably not the former promotes health and safety, the latter makes a mockery out of it ::)
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I only had it in my van for a few weeks and not a day went by when i wasn`t worried about it being there,good luck to those that have it in there van.I took mine out after advise from guy`s that know what there on about and nagging from the Mrs,it`s so easy for so called freinds to say naah that`s alright in there mate but they havn`t got it in there van have they.I think the fact that it`s risky has crossed everyones mind if there honest.
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its not rescay if put it rite
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These systems can be installed correctly and safely, and in a way that will keep your insurance company happy,... if you do some research and know what you are doing.
I fail to see the major difference between Gas & Diesel powered systems. There is still heat/flame/ignition etc. A diesel leak is just as risky as a gas leak! An incorrectly installed diesel powered heater is also deadly!
But, you're on a mission NWH, and you'll continue to make sweeping generalisations about all gas systems no matter what I say.
I'm going to quit replying to these threads when you get involved.
I always thought diesel needed to be compressed before being able to combust? I didn't think you could set light to it from just a flame, like you do with petrol.
Diesel cannot be lit with a naked flame unless it has a wick in which to burn, for instance diesel on a rag would burn just as well as petrol would but your right it does have a higher temperature rate of combustion...hence diesel engines having glow plugs, or coils instead of spark plugs.
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Saying diesel heaters are dangerous is just provoking argument,i don`t like to do that lol. ;D
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These systems can be installed correctly and safely, and in a way that will keep your insurance company happy,... if you do some research and know what you are doing.
I fail to see the major difference between Gas & Diesel powered systems. There is still heat/flame/ignition etc. A diesel leak is just as risky as a gas leak! An incorrectly installed diesel powered heater is also deadly!
But, you're on a mission NWH, and you'll continue to make sweeping generalisations about all gas systems no matter what I say.
I'm going to quit replying to these threads when you get involved.
I always thought diesel needed to be compressed before being able to combust? I didn't think you could set light to it from just a flame, like you do with petrol.
Diesel cannot be lit with a naked flame unless it has a wick in which to burn, for instance diesel on a rag would burn just as well as petrol would but your right it does have a higher temperature rate of combustion...hence diesel engines having glow plugs, or coils instead of spark plugs.
chrisyg,
Diesel DOES NOT need a wick to combust.
"Without sufficient heat, a fire cannot begin, and it cannot continue. Heat can be removed by dousing with water; the water turns to steam and the steam is further heated, taking the heat with it. Introducing particles of powder or any gas in the flame remove heat in the same manner. Separating burning fuels from each other also reduce the heat. Turning off the electricity in an electrical fire removes the ignition source. "
"Diesel is designed for use in a high-compression engine. Air is compressed until it has been heated above the autoignition temperature of diesel; then the fuel is injected as a high-pressure spray, keeping the fuel-air mix within the flammable limits of diesel. There is no ignition source. Therefore, diesel is required to have a high flash point and a low autoignition temperature.
Diesel flash points vary between 126°F and 204°F (52°C-96°C/WJ)."
The 'flash point' is the state at which Diesel will 'flash burn' (ignite/explode) without an outside source of fuel (wick).
NWH - I'll keep replying to this thread if you can come up with sound logic/reason beyond "my mate down the pub said it was bad"....
Your theory is flawed.
Your grasp of H&S is flawed.
You have bought a 3k diesel system...... Good for you ;D
SHOW ME where it says gas is any more (or less dangerous) than using diesel?
You can use ANY site. ANY reference. ANY Regulation.
I will throw down the gauntlet right now - you WILL NOT find a single source that says or shows diesel to be safer/less dangerous than LPG as long as it is properly controlled.
Prove me wrong NWH - wheres you're evidence?
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Keep grafting and 1 day you`ll be able to get a proper 1 lol,if you keep coming up with rubbish so will i.Dear insurance company i have an outside shower heater hanging on the back door of my van or sometimes in the van itself with hardly any ventillation,i intend to use this daily connected to a gas bottle within bombing distance of the public hope this is ok,yours truthfully ide ott. ;D ;D ;D
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Keep grafting and 1 day you`ll be able to get a proper 1 lol,if you keep coming up with rubbish so will i.Dear insurance company i have an outside shower heater hanging on the back door of my van or sometimes in the van itself with hardly any ventillation,i intend to use this daily connected to a gas bottle within bombing distance of the public hope this is ok,yours truthfully ide ott. ;D ;D ;D
So thats it?
Thats what you're basing your purchase on?
So what if I said Diesel was dangerous?....You wouldnt listen to me because somebody was selling a system and by virtue, that must be better? And because I'm not selling you something my thoughts must be wrong?
Havent we already been down this road with Inonics v DIY set-ups.....and Inoics was found to be wanting?
If you'd like to enter into a full discusssion of the pro's and con's of Gas/Diesel please feel free.
I have researched this topic enough to know what I'm talking about ;)
......HAVE YOU? what are your sources of reference?
I have no axe to grind. I have no product to sell. I have everybodys best interest at heart.
Why rubbish another way if you dont have the knowledge to back it up with fact?
PROVE to me what I'm saying is wrong.
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David just in case i wasnt too clear in my post i never said that diesel simply just wont ignite unless it has a rag or wick, i wasnt wanting to go too much into it but the wick is what burns which in turn steadily heat the diesel to its ignition temp and walla!
Put a spark to diesel it wont go boom, put a lighter onto diesel it wont go boom but under the right circumstances its every bit as deadly.
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David just in case i wasnt too clear in my post i never said that diesel simply just wont ignite unless it has a rag or wick, i wasnt wanting to go too much into it but the wick is what burns which in turn steadily heat the diesel to its ignition temp and walla!
Put a spark to diesel it wont go boom, put a lighter onto diesel it wont go boom but under the right circumstances its every bit as deadly.
RSwindows,
I hear what you're saying, but from a H&S viewpoint Diesel has certain issues that gas doesnt - namely it is carcinogenic
It is combustible liquid (otherwise it would be useless as a fuel!!) so it must have a 'flash point'
It MUST be controlled. An engine working on diesel must by virtue of the fact it is running diesel have a temp high enough to cause 'flash point'....what temp is the exhaust from that system? Enough to cause 'flash point'?...most likely the answer is yes.
Gas has a low 'flash point' but this can be adequatley controlled by drop vents and User Checks/Instruction/Toolbox talks/Fire Action Plans etc etc etc..
If NWH thinks he can avoid these measures by "buyng a system" he is sorely mistaken!
Gas is no more dangerous than diesel as long as proper controls are put in place.
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David later, I think that’s his point. The proper controls are not in place.
Justification, knowledge and kidding yourself are not proper controls.
Ewan i could kiss you lol. ;D ;D :-*
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Gas is no more dangerous than diesel as long as proper controls are put in place.
definately, just be sure for your own sake and that of others that all reasonable steps are being taken to minimize risk
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Gas is no more dangerous than diesel lol,if i lit a match right next to a gas leak and a match next to a diesel leak which would you choose,doh.
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Gas is no more dangerous than diesel lol,if i lit a match right next to a gas leak and a match next to a diesel leak which would you choose,doh.
Oh dear..... ;D ;D
You've really got the wrong end of the stick havent you?
Is that what you based you 3k purchase on?
Dont you think its possiblre to control leaks of gas/diesel by any other method that lighting a match inside the vehicle?
What about fitting CO2 sensors?
What about fitting auto shut-off gas detectors?
What about acute/chorinc effects of gas or diesel on staff....have you considered them? How are you controlling them?
Judging by your posts, I think you've tried to off load your H&S onto the supplier of the equipment?....they said it was "safe" so it must be "safe"???
Now lets try that with a set of ladders - you bought them but you fell offf them - who's at fault?...you or the manufacturer of the ladders?
Obviously its your fault. You didnt properly control the hazards.
How is gas/diesel different?
Please show me at least one link to at least one official site that shows my argument to be wrong?
Come on NWH, it cant be THAT hard?....after all, you've spent 3k on the strengh of somebody telling you gas was "dangerous"????
You MUST have researched this subject?
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My diesel fumes go out the floor through a proper exhaust that is made for the heater.
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If gas was that dangerous, all those cars with LPG conversion kits would have to be put off the road!
Done right it is perfectly safe. The way NWH had the heater on the back door wasn't something I'd recommend to anyone,...
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If gas was that dangerous, all those cars with LPG conversion kits would have to be put off the road!
Done right it is perfectly safe. The way NWH had the heater on the back door wasn't something I'd recommend to anyone,...
Too true Nathanael
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if you lite a lleak it will just brurn and bot will go all icey as in nats pik of a long day it is the gas bild up of gas fumes that go bang , /or if you super heat the botal /
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David Slater you have the wrong end of the stick, no amount of reasoning will help when you compare the two systems. If ever there were an incident.
H&S is really the issue, even if you give everybody the credit of installing there systems properly. It’s doesn’t matter in the slightest that's what you seem to miss.
NWH is correct in what he has done and if others followed his lead as soon as they have the money they will be demonstrating common sense as well.
And what are your qualifications to talk to me about H&S Ewan?
I hold the National Examination Board in Occupational Safety and Health NEBOSH ngc (National General Certificate) and will be a registered with the Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (IOSH) at Technician level in 5 weeks (Tech IOSH).
Would you care to post YOUR H&S qualifications Ewan?
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Ewan,.. are you saying a gas heater, in non technical, common sense H&S terms, simply CANNOT be installed and used in a safe manner? It seems like quite a broad blanket statement to put in such forceful terms?
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Do you have a diy wfp setup or a brand name one Ewan?
The danger of an incorrectly fitted tank in a van is also a big H&S issue,... but one that has been around for a few years and is now often accepted without question.
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Personally i dont have an issue working with the gas heater in the van - its no different to using it with the patio heater in my garden or some caravanner on their hols cooking. OK so im not 50+ metres from it when in the garden but its still being used in a built up neighbour hood without me looking and checking it every 10 seconds. Its could still go up if there was a leak, same as the gas stove in the house!
If it goes it goes, doesn;t matter if im next to it or 50 metres away whatever the appliance.
Its about controlling the risks as David has mentioned. My heater set up will be installed by a registered gas technician, unlike my patio heater! :o
Where getting off topic will all you guys squabbling over the risks, what i want to know is how Insurance companies see us using these. So far ive only had one guy saying he had no probs, but yet to explain how he has put it to them.
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I phoned up my insurance and told them I had installed a gas powered caravan water heater and a 11kg butane cylinder in my van,.. do I need to pay extra or change my cover I asked the girl on the phone? (This was after researching the legalities & regulations involved in such an installation in Ireland, and I was expecting & prepared for some questions). She asked me to hold while she checked with her supervisor, and in less than 30 seconds came back to me and said that it was no problem at all and that I could carry on as normal. I'm with Quinn insurance btw.
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I phoned up my insurance and told them I had installed a gas powered caravan water heater and a 11kg butane cylinder in my van,.. do I need to pay extra or change my cover I asked the girl on the phone? (This was after researching the legalities & regulations involved in such an installation in Ireland, and I was expecting & prepared for some questions). She asked me to hold while she checked with her supervisor, and in less than 30 seconds came back to me and said that it was no problem at all and that I could carry on as normal. I'm with Quinn insurance btw.
Ahh yes we had this one on another forum. Did you actually chase this up regarding your policy details? Is this covered in the T&C's in the end?
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I plan to give them a call tomorrow and get it in writing!
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I phoned up my insurance and told them I had installed a gas powered caravan water heater and a 11kg butane cylinder in my van,.. do I need to pay extra or change my cover I asked the girl on the phone? (This was after researching the legalities & regulations involved in such an installation in Ireland, and I was expecting & prepared for some questions). She asked me to hold while she checked with her supervisor, and in less than 30 seconds came back to me and said that it was no problem at all and that I could carry on as normal. I'm with Quinn insurance btw.
I for 1 don`t want to keep this thread dragging on but that`s rubbish,if anything goes wrong they won`t want anything to do with any claim you make or a member of the public makes on you.If you re map your car-van ECU who cares no one until something happens it`s exactly the same thing no different,once they investigate the claim in full and by that i mean when it looks like they`ve got to pay out it will become a different story according to a good freind of mine that works for Alliance.You never know what will happen until you make a claim and if your not in line with your policy in every way they will wiggle out of it and having this heater fitted gives them the perfect excuse.
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David Slater you have the wrong end of the stick, no amount of reasoning will help when you compare the two systems. If ever there were an incident.
H&S is really the issue, even if you give everybody the credit of installing there systems properly. It’s doesn’t matter in the slightest that's what you seem to miss.
NWH is correct in what he has done and if others followed his lead as soon as they have the money they will be demonstrating common sense as well.
And what are your qualifications to talk to me about H&S Ewan?
I hold the National Examination Board in Occupational Safety and Health NEBOSH ngc (National General Certificate) and will be a registered with the Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (IOSH) at Technician level in 5 weeks (Tech IOSH).
Would you care to post YOUR H&S qualifications Ewan?
I have a couple of IOSH qualifications, but that’s not the point either.
You of all people should know better if you have had some training regarding H&S.
With or without the qualifications you can still break or bend the rules and no amount of training or qualifications will help you.
Lot of H&S is common sense which is what you would have been taught, so why don’t you use some of that training in regards to this example?
Anybody with common sense will choose which heater for the job? You don’t need qualifications or even to be a window cleaner to make the right choice.
Sounds like to me you put money over H&S anyway, why else would you argue over something as straight forward as this?
Ewan,
A couple of one day IOSH courses is hardly H&S "training" is it?
A lot of people seem to be jumping on 'gas is dangerous' without any knowledge or investigation into the facts. I challenge any of you to explain to EXACTLY why gas is more (or less dangerous) than any other from of heat system.
I use gas at home. I allow it to ignite and burn while my home is unoccupied - we usually call that a central heating systems with a timer which will fire up and run while I am in bed or out at work....Are you suggesting I should only use my boiler at home while I'm in and awake (so I can control the hazard?). Are you suggesting I am doing something dangerous? Are you suggesting my insurance would refuse to pay if the system blew up?
Come on guys ;D ;D - THINK about what you're saying.
Most of the information on this thread (and other threads on this subject) is flawed. I have shown quite clearly that HSE, VCA and the DoT have no issues with the way I am using gas.
Were you guys this reluctant to take WFP on board?......
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You use gas at home as do many many other people,normally it`s stored outside with pipeing coming through the outside wall for cooking.You don`t store the gas inside the home do you,usually 2 large gas bottles will last a year and is safe because it`s as i say stored outside unlike your van.
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You use gas at home as do many many other people,normally it`s stored outside with pipeing coming through the outside wall for cooking.You don`t store the gas inside the home do you,usually 2 large gas bottles will last a year and is safe because it`s as i say stored outside unlike your van.
My van is outside ??? its not going to be inside, that would be a H&S issue, not to mention cramped.
Sorry dont see you point here..
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You use gas at home as do many many other people,normally it`s stored outside with pipeing coming through the outside wall for cooking.You don`t store the gas inside the home do you,usually 2 large gas bottles will last a year and is safe because it`s as i say stored outside unlike your van.
And where are you while the gas is 'working' inside the vehicle?
And what do you do when you get back inside the vehicle - shut it off perhaps?
As I was told when I rang HSE - our systems probably come closer to a bitumen vehicle which needs to keep its load heated at all times (whether the vehicle is moving or stationary)....but we dont need to have the system working while the vehicle is moving do we?...because its an 'on demand' system.
You really need to stand back and THINK about this a little bit more....and possibly talk to some people who have more expetrise such as the HSE, DoT and VCA.
Gas CAN be controlled safely with some basic measures. If you think can offload your responsibilities because you "bought a system" I'd seriously think again.
As far as carrying a gas bottle being 'dangerous' I think that one has been well and truly shot out of the water - motorhomes, caravans, burger vans, bitumen vehicles, plumbers etc etc etc..
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For household useage why do you think the gas is stored outside normally opposite or at the rear of the cooker on the outside wall,why would you prefer to have it in the kitchen with you.Don`t you think this thread has run it`s course now,if you want to drive round with a potential bomb in your van fine it`s your choice but don`t try to convince everyone it`s a safe option.
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You use gas at home as do many many other people,normally it`s stored outside with pipeing coming through the outside wall for cooking.You don`t store the gas inside the home do you,usually 2 large gas bottles will last a year and is safe because it`s as i say stored outside unlike your van.
And where are you while the gas is 'working' inside the vehicle?
And what do you do when you get back inside the vehicle - shut it off perhaps?
As I was told when I rang HSE - our systems probably come closer to a bitumen vehicle which needs to keep its load heated at all times (whether the vehicle is moving or stationary)....but we dont need to have the system working while the vehicle is moving do we?...because its an 'on demand' system.
You really need to stand back and THINK about this a little bit more....and possibly talk to some people who have more expetrise such as the HSE, DoT and VCA.
Gas CAN be controlled safely with some basic measures. If you think can offload your responsibilities because you "bought a system" I'd seriously think again.
As far as carrying a gas bottle being 'dangerous' I think that one has been well and truly shot out of the water - motorhomes, caravans, burger vans, bitumen vehicles, plumbers etc etc etc..
Burger vans-caravans and the like have them disconnected when travelling do you lol,just get yourself a proper heater for goodness sake. ;D ;D
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Just to chuck something else into the mix of this post:
I've a caravan that uses gas and a liesure battery and both of them are stored in the 'gas locker' at the front of the caravan.
But I know that later models of the same caravan have separate compartments for the gas and battery, because there's a posibility of gas escaping from the bottle and a spark from the battery; that's obviously not a safe combination!
Hence the seperate compartments.
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Just to chuck something else into the mix of this post:
I've a caravan that uses gas and a liesure battery and both of them are stored in the 'gas locker' at the front of the caravan.
But I know that later models of the same caravan have separate compartments for the gas and battery, because there's a posibility of gas escaping from the bottle and a spark from the battery; that's obviously not a safe combination!
Hence the seperate compartments.
Now that is actually something worth thinking about. Nice post and worth reading, and looking into other methods and controlling a risk. Obviously it would need to be a gas tight compartment. So best to use a gas container like they do on boats etc.
Oh and have you moved that battery? If not, why not? :P
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HHiiiiiiisssssssss booooooommmm. ;D ;D ::)
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You use gas at home as do many many other people,normally it`s stored outside with pipeing coming through the outside wall for cooking.You don`t store the gas inside the home do you,usually 2 large gas bottles will last a year and is safe because it`s as i say stored outside unlike your van.
And where are you while the gas is 'working' inside the vehicle?
And what do you do when you get back inside the vehicle - shut it off perhaps?
As I was told when I rang HSE - our systems probably come closer to a bitumen vehicle which needs to keep its load heated at all times (whether the vehicle is moving or stationary)....but we dont need to have the system working while the vehicle is moving do we?...because its an 'on demand' system.
You really need to stand back and THINK about this a little bit more....and possibly talk to some people who have more expetrise such as the HSE, DoT and VCA.
Gas CAN be controlled safely with some basic measures. If you think can offload your responsibilities because you "bought a system" I'd seriously think again.
As far as carrying a gas bottle being 'dangerous' I think that one has been well and truly shot out of the water - motorhomes, caravans, burger vans, bitumen vehicles, plumbers etc etc etc..
Burger vans-caravans and the like have them disconnected when travelling do you lol,just get yourself a proper heater for goodness sake. ;D ;D
sigh..... ::)
You really havent thought this through very well have you NWH?
You turn the gas OFF between jobs. It doesnt need to be 'ON' between jobs as its an 'on demand' system. Between jobs, you are basically carrying a bottle of gas which has been isolated - just like a burger van, plumber etc etc etc
If you cant figure out how to control the hazards, then its probably a good idea you bought a system.
Tosh,
An excellent point!! ;D
Fully covered and explained in MAJOR DETAIL on (ahem!) another forum....I think some guys will know what I'm talking about ;)
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You use gas at home as do many many other people,normally it`s stored outside with pipeing coming through the outside wall for cooking.You don`t store the gas inside the home do you,usually 2 large gas bottles will last a year and is safe because it`s as i say stored outside unlike your van.
And where are you while the gas is 'working' inside the vehicle?
And what do you do when you get back inside the vehicle - shut it off perhaps?
As I was told when I rang HSE - our systems probably come closer to a bitumen vehicle which needs to keep its load heated at all times (whether the vehicle is moving or stationary)....but we dont need to have the system working while the vehicle is moving do we?...because its an 'on demand' system.
You really need to stand back and THINK about this a little bit more....and possibly talk to some people who have more expetrise such as the HSE, DoT and VCA.
Gas CAN be controlled safely with some basic measures. If you think can offload your responsibilities because you "bought a system" I'd seriously think again.
As far as carrying a gas bottle being 'dangerous' I think that one has been well and truly shot out of the water - motorhomes, caravans, burger vans, bitumen vehicles, plumbers etc etc etc..
Burger vans-caravans and the like have them disconnected when travelling do you lol,just get yourself a proper heater for goodness sake. ;D ;D
sigh..... ::)
You really havent thought this through very well have you NWH?
You turn the gas OFF between jobs. It doesnt need to be 'ON' between jobs as its an 'on demand' system. Between jobs, you are basically carrying a bottle of gas which has been isolated - just like a burger van, plumber etc etc etc
If you cant figure out how to control the hazards, then its probably a good idea you bought a system.
Tosh,
An excellent point!! ;D
Fully covered and explained in MAJOR DETAIL on (ahem!) another forum....I think some guys will know what I'm talking about ;)
Think it through a british gas engineer and a fireman where enough to convince me thank`s.
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HHiiiiiiisssssssss booooooommmm. ;D ;D ::)
Hiiisssss...drop vent removes gas.
Hiiissssss...supply isolated. No naked flame. I suggest you read up on 'Fire Triangle'
Hiiisss...heater isloted from gas cylinder by way of heat screen.
Hisssss...approved gas bottle and fittings dont allow return of gas back to tank (non return valve).
So wheres the boom?
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You use gas at home as do many many other people,normally it`s stored outside with pipeing coming through the outside wall for cooking.You don`t store the gas inside the home do you,usually 2 large gas bottles will last a year and is safe because it`s as i say stored outside unlike your van.
And where are you while the gas is 'working' inside the vehicle?
And what do you do when you get back inside the vehicle - shut it off perhaps?
As I was told when I rang HSE - our systems probably come closer to a bitumen vehicle which needs to keep its load heated at all times (whether the vehicle is moving or stationary)....but we dont need to have the system working while the vehicle is moving do we?...because its an 'on demand' system.
You really need to stand back and THINK about this a little bit more....and possibly talk to some people who have more expetrise such as the HSE, DoT and VCA.
Gas CAN be controlled safely with some basic measures. If you think can offload your responsibilities because you "bought a system" I'd seriously think again.
As far as carrying a gas bottle being 'dangerous' I think that one has been well and truly shot out of the water - motorhomes, caravans, burger vans, bitumen vehicles, plumbers etc etc etc..
Burger vans-caravans and the like have them disconnected when travelling do you lol,just get yourself a proper heater for goodness sake. ;D ;D
sigh..... ::)
You really havent thought this through very well have you NWH?
You turn the gas OFF between jobs. It doesnt need to be 'ON' between jobs as its an 'on demand' system. Between jobs, you are basically carrying a bottle of gas which has been isolated - just like a burger van, plumber etc etc etc
If you cant figure out how to control the hazards, then its probably a good idea you bought a system.
Tosh,
An excellent point!! ;D
Fully covered and explained in MAJOR DETAIL on (ahem!) another forum....I think some guys will know what I'm talking about ;)
Think it through a british gas engineer and a fireman where enough to convince me thank`s.
;D ;D ;D
The day a couple of blokes 'down the pub' have more sway than the HSE, DoT and VCA I'll eat my hat.
I'm sure the fireman will tell you, you have more chance of killing yourself and your family with a chip pan....does that mean we should throw our chip pans away or maybe that carelessness and not understanding the hazards associated with chip pans was the problem?
Did he understand how the installation was installed?...if he did, you were obviously fitting it incorrectly or without due consideration of the risks/hazarads posed?
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David is the flame in the heater isolated? The air vents that cause it to blow out shows its not contained, or is it? Obviously i think the gas box is a great way to go. I'll have to look further into that.
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If it catches fire just chuck a damp towel over it lol. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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David is the flame in the heater isolated? The air vents that cause it to blow out shows its not contained, or is it? Obviously i think the gas box is a great way to go. I'll have to look further into that.
If you contain it it will ventilation,if your gonna bother going that far you may aswell get a proper 1.
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HHiiiiiiisssssssss booooooommmm. ;D ;D ::)
Hiiisssss...drop vent removes gas.
Hiiissssss...supply isolated. No naked flame. I suggest you read up on 'Fire Triangle'
Hiiisss...heater isloted from gas cylinder by way of heat screen.
Hisssss...approved gas bottle and fittings dont allow return of gas back to tank (non return valve).
So wheres the boom?
It's surprising how many issues from window cleaning also affect people with (cara)vans! Honest. Pumps, liesure batteries, gas bottles, weight issues... and probably other stuff.
But I agree with David, there's no problems with carrying a gas bottle as long as it's secured properly and turned off when you're travelling.
I would keep the van ventilated and the battery away from the bottle though (belts and braces), but in my (cara)van, I keep them together; I don't think there's much of a risk and I've never had any explosions.
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David is the flame in the heater isolated? The air vents that cause it to blow out shows its not contained, or is it? Obviously i think the gas box is a great way to go. I'll have to look further into that.
If you contain it it will ventilation,if your gonna bother going that far you may aswell get a proper 1.
well i dont have 3k to spend but i can find £200 for a isolation box - horses for courses.
Once i get the new van, then i will prob have a professional hot system fitted then.
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David is the flame in the heater isolated? The air vents that cause it to blow out shows its not contained, or is it? Obviously i think the gas box is a great way to go. I'll have to look further into that.
Yes.
If you look at those pictures of my set-up you'll see the heater is separated from the gas bottle by way of a solid stainless steel panel (heater is by side door, gas bottle is in the rear).
If the pilot light goes out, the gas automatically stops flowing to the heater. You will have a tiny amount of gas escaping from the pilot light but you're drop vent and ventilation (no van is air tight!) will remove this tiny build up with ease.
If the pilot light goes out, you have just removed the source of ignition - gas cannot ignite without a the flame - 'Fire Triangle'
If you are isolating the gas supply between each job (turning the gas off at the bottle) and you're doing your Daily Visual Inspections and User Checks you would notice if the gas bottle itself was leaking gas before turning the system on.
These Daily Checks and User Checks apply to ANY system and not just gas systems...but I'm sure we all know that ;)
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Im not really able to seperate them that well, so i think a £200-£250 marine box would be ideal!
you got other forum pm David, just cos you cant pm on this forum. :P
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OK...I'll go and check :)
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David is the flame in the heater isolated? The air vents that cause it to blow out shows its not contained, or is it? Obviously i think the gas box is a great way to go. I'll have to look further into that.
Yes.
If you look at those pictures of my set-up you'll see the heater is separated from the gas bottle by way of a solid stainless steel panel (heater is by side door, gas bottle is in the rear).
If the pilot light goes out, the gas automatically stops flowing to the heater. You will have a tiny amount of gas escaping from the pilot light but you're drop vent and ventilation (no van is air tight!) will remove this tiny build up with ease.
If the pilot light goes out, you have just removed the source of ignition - gas cannot ignite without a the flame - 'Fire Triangle'
If you are isolating the gas supply between each job (turning the gas off at the bottle) and you're doing your Daily Visual Inspections and User Checks you would notice if the gas bottle itself was leaking gas before turning the system on.
These Daily Checks and User Checks apply to ANY system and not just gas systems...but I'm sure we all know that ;)
let us have a look at the pictures then.
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Here's what you're looking for, £200 for the unit that takes a 13kg bottle:
http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pages/marine.htm
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Here's what you're looking for, £200 for the unit that takes a 13kg bottle:
http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pages/marine.htm
thanks nath, i got the idea from the other forum it posted there on the main regs thread. found my size gas container 6Kg for £170 cheapest so far - not sure if that included P&P.
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Here's what you're looking for, £200 for the unit that takes a 13kg bottle:
http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pages/marine.htm
"Our Marine regulators have been designed to meet the new EN 12864 - Annex M standard for marine use and are produced in either Stainless Steel or Zinc Alloy which have been specially coated inside and out to protect them from the harsh salt air environment."
I'm pretty sure these units are needed on boats due to the corrosive nature of sea water on the bottle and not to contain an explosion...if you get my drift.
Could be a real issue for guys that live by the coast I suppose?
NWH,
My pics have been up for a month or so now ;D
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"Only Gaslow lockers have a gas and watertight lid which completely seals with a simple handle turn."
If you check it has a drop vent so any leakage will disperse through that vent which can be directed right outside the van, and taken away by the wind, if there is any.
I presume thats safer than just having a few holes drilled in your van floor doing the same job. But at least any spark from a battery wouldn't have much chance of ignition, as any leakage will be outside the van rather than inside to start with.
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Here's what you're looking for, £200 for the unit that takes a 13kg bottle:
http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pages/marine.htm
"Our Marine regulators have been designed to meet the new EN 12864 - Annex M standard for marine use and are produced in either Stainless Steel or Zinc Alloy which have been specially coated inside and out to protect them from the harsh salt air environment."
I'm pretty sure these units are needed on boats due to the corrosive nature of sea water on the bottle and not to contain an explosion...if you get my drift.
Could be a real issue for guys that live by the coast I suppose?
NWH,
My pics have been up for a month or so now ;D
Where are the pics then.
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Where are the pics then.
They're on another forum,... but posting a link may get me in trouble,...
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this thread is a great read
it seems that David Slater has done the research, knows his onions with risks and H&S
yet people are still doubting him ::) ::)
its amazing really
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"Only Gaslow lockers have a gas and watertight lid which completely seals with a simple handle turn."
If you check it has a drop vent so any leakage will disperse through that vent which can be directed right outside the van, and taken away by the wind, if there is any.
I presume thats safer than just having a few holes drilled in your van floor doing the same job. But at least any spark from a battery wouldn't have much chance of ignition, as any leakage will be outside the van rather than inside to start with.
Chrisy,
Its not a couple of holes drilled in the floor. You need to fit proper floor vents. I have fitted two drop vents.
They look like this - www.shutterlovers.com/image/round%20034.jpg
They are made from plastic (so wont rust) they are easy to install. They keep the wind/rain out of the vehicle by the design and shape. They are white...so if you've got a white van, they are virtually invisible once insatalled. Easy to keep clean. Easy to spot any debris/blockages.
They only cost a pound or two and you can fit them in under 30 minutes.
I fitted them under the boiler and as luck would have it, the step (on the side door) had a plastic foot plate....I took the plastic foot plate off and put them in there - If I sell the van, all I have to do is re-attach the plastic foot plate and you'd never know the vents were there :)
NWH,
Did you really hang the heater off the back door?
No wonder that fireman thought YOUR gas set up was dangerous!! :o
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"Only Gaslow lockers have a gas and watertight lid which completely seals with a simple handle turn."
If you check it has a drop vent so any leakage will disperse through that vent which can be directed right outside the van, and taken away by the wind, if there is any.
I presume thats safer than just having a few holes drilled in your van floor doing the same job. But at least any spark from a battery wouldn't have much chance of ignition, as any leakage will be outside the van rather than inside to start with.
Chrisy,
Its not a couple of holes drilled in the floor. You need to fit proper floor vents. I have fitted two drop vents.
They look like this - www.shutterlovers.com/image/round%20034.jpg
They are made from plastic (so wont rust) they are easy to install. They keep the wind/rain out of the vehicle by the design and shape. They are white...so if you've got a white van, they are virtually invisible once insatalled. Easy to keep clean. Easy to spot any debris/blockages.
They only cost a pound or two and you can fit them in under 30 minutes.
I fitted them under the boiler and as luck would have it, the step (on the side door) had a plastic foot plate....I took the plastic foot plate off and put them in there - If I sell the van, all I have to do is re-attach the plastic foot plate and you'd never know the vents were there :)
NWH,
Did you really hang the heater off the back door?
No wonder that fireman thought YOUR gas set up was dangerous!! :o
Off the back door now that is an issue with the pipes and fixings, and could cause a leakage via compress or fracture of the pipes.
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David is the flame in the heater isolated? The air vents that cause it to blow out shows its not contained, or is it? Obviously i think the gas box is a great way to go. I'll have to look further into that.
Yes.
If you look at those pictures of my set-up you'll see the heater is separated from the gas bottle by way of a solid stainless steel panel (heater is by side door, gas bottle is in the rear).
If the pilot light goes out, the gas automatically stops flowing to the heater. You will have a tiny amount of gas escaping from the pilot light but you're drop vent and ventilation (no van is air tight!) will remove this tiny build up with ease.
If the pilot light goes out, you have just removed the source of ignition - gas cannot ignite without a the flame - 'Fire Triangle'
If you are isolating the gas supply between each job (turning the gas off at the bottle) and you're doing your Daily Visual Inspections and User Checks you would notice if the gas bottle itself was leaking gas before turning the system on.
These Daily Checks and User Checks apply to ANY system and not just gas systems...but I'm sure we all know that ;)
Hi David
Where can I see the pictures of your setup?
Many thanks
Paul.
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David Slater giving you the benefit of the doubt about you hot set up, “taking your word” that it complies with all aspect of H&S including H&S for employees.
If you did have an incident with your set up, you will have broken regulations and most probably the law. (That also applies to of the shelf systems)
But in your case you will also be asked as to why you have this system instead of one made for window cleaners from a supplier. (Your answer better not be to save some money).
So what are the reasons for having this system over one from a reputable supplier? ???
Can you prove your system is just as robust, suitable etc as the ones used by suppliers?
What tests were carried out on your system for the purpose of window cleaning?
These are just a few very basic and simple questions about your equipment. Fact is there are big differences between the types of system; using H&S for your own ends is definitely frowned upon, anyone with common sense will see through you comments instantly if there ever were reason to.
You can always tell them you know your onions! ::)
Oh my word Ewan.... ;D ;D
I take it you've never come across the terms 'Practicable' and 'Reasonably Practicable'
You REALLY dont understand H&S do you?...in all seriousness Ewan, get some H&S management training.
As some other posters already know, I'll be enrolling on the NEBOSH (Diploma) course this year and presuming I pass, I will have the equvilant of a BA (Bachelor of Arts) in H&S and as its an Honours Degree course....that will get me membership of IOSH at Graduate level.
H&S is my thing...I love it!! Its interesting, stimulating and challenging.
If you want to go 'head to head' with me on H&S you are more than welcome. As its such a broad spectrum, I think we should narrow it down to specifics.
What would you like to know specifically?
Would you like to know how I'm controlling the hazards?
Would you like to know what measures I've put in place?
Would you like to know how my system has ergonomics built into its design?
Would you like to know my reasonig behind gas as apposed to Diesel from a Health and Welfare at Work standpoint?
"buying a system" is somehow better than designing the sytem yourself?? ;D ;D
One of the foundations of good H&S is discussion with staff/owners on the best design/user operation of equipment. You seem to have this strange idea that buying a system has somehow absolved you from any responsibility.
Let me set you straight there Ewan - I have major "issues" with most manufacturers of wfp systems - they require the user to climb (or lean) in to the vehicle to reach controls. You do realise if you fell from the vehicle while changing resin or turning the system on (or off) this would breach WAHR....which we seem to quote so often ;D
Do some research Ewan or get some decent qualifications. Then come back to me and tell me your "bought system" is "safe"
Anglocom,
Not sure I'm allowed to mention other sites. Some members of CIU have been banned for less!! :o
NATHANEAL (!!!) ;) has seen my pics. So has chrisyg..... and quite a few others who belong to another guild of window cleaners ;)
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Thanks David
Appreciate your assistance.
Regards
Paul.
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Thanks David
Appreciate your assistance.
Regards
Paul.
You've got it Paul ;)
Look in the HOT WFP section.
Ewan,
Seriously mate, you're so out of your depth its laughable.
I have made my own system because (as already mentioned) I felt almost all suppliers of WFP systems were overlooking some very real and obvious "issues" - namely, WAHR (we all know that one dont we!!) in the design and fitting of the sytems. There was no Ergonomic design considerations built in for the end user/staff/supervisor/manager/owner. I would have thought most manufacturers of equipment would be aware of these basic Regs (as they seem to quote them so happily to sell their systems).
In my book, this is an unacceptable omission.
I took the decision to improve on their designs to come up with a better solution which would address these issues.
Ewan, all of this means nothing to you....but I've responded in the hope that you'll go away and do some research.
STOP trying to off-load your responsibilties onto a supplier. It doesnt work that way my friend...and the guys that sell the sytems know it ;)
I'm selling NOTHING. I have found a solution that works for me. It is far better that what is on offer.
Ewan, DONT try and throw in a word such as "law" or "Regulation" without having some underlying knowledge of its application.
May I point you to really good source of information - www.hse.gov.uk/
Have a really good look at that site then come back at me with some links ;) ...if you cant link it, its not worth responding.
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David,
Ewan's only been a window cleaner since... what time is it now, so I can work it out? and knows it all already.
Ignore Ewan, he's our resident troll.
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I doubt anyone who's seen pics of David's system would knock it,.. it is seriously impressive,... built and installed I might add by his dad who was an aeronautical engineer for 30 years (Correct me if I'm wrong David!), so he has a very good understanding of securing things into fast moving vehicles!
Looks better than many pro system's I've seen!
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I doubt anyone who's seen pics of David's system would knock it,.. it is seriously impressive,... built and installed I might add by his dad who was an aeronautical engineer for 30 years (Correct me if I'm wrong David!), so he has a very good understanding of securing things into fast moving vehicles!
Looks better than many pro system's I've seen!
Thanks Nat ;D
Yep, my dad was an aerospace engineer...you're right Nat, he's used to bolting things on to stuff that moves a lot quicker than a Vivaro!!!
He has an in depth knowledge of H&S (for his industry)....which makes ours look like a joke!!
He was shocked at the low tolerance levels of certain systems.....!!!
He was quite surprised at some of the information I was coming back with from my course. We sat down and discussed it, and he could see the logic. He adapted some of my original plans to include the latest ideas/equipment (and a lot of input from the other posters!)....cheers guys ;D
I'm happy with my system. It meets my needs. It complies with all relevant legislation. It beats what is offered for sale by other manufacturers.
Guys - I'm NOT selling anything. I just want to show you that with a little bit of input from like-minded people we can ALL come up with something better....isn't that how DIY WFP started?
TOSH,
The danger is, if I don't respond to Ewan other posters may take his spurious and ill conceived ideas as fact.
How dangerous would that be? :o
I need to corner him down and show him to be the ill informed person he is.
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When it was looked at by the fireman and gas engineer it wasn`t swinging on the back door,the concept of the thing was what they didn`t agree with.So i thought i`d do the right thing.
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TOSH,
The danger is, if I don't respond to Ewan other posters may take his spurious and ill conceived ideas as fact.
How dangerous would that be? :o
thats what i used to think, thus i would allways reply, BUT he doesnt seem to understand even the simple things, you get to a point that you think " am i really banging my head against the wall "
fair play to you though David, as i said above, you know your stuff and your keeping at it :) good on you
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It may or may not be relevant but, I remember a news story about an angry terrorist trying to blow up Glasgow Airport using GAS BOTTLES. He poured petrol all through his vehicle and set fire to the lot, it didn't blow up. I remember the experts saying GAS BOTTLES are designed to vent the gas rather than blow up. They may be wrong.
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Have you seen some of the gas explosions on Youtube,some are in vehicles.
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David slater
Regarding Ewan- when about to reply to a post by the said prat, sit back, take a deep breath & remember this term- "It's no good knocking if there's no one in" ;)
Hope that helps
Tony
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Is there anyone there lol. ;D ;D
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David slater
Regarding Ewan- when about to reply to a post by the said prat, sit back, take a deep breath & remember this term- "It's no good knocking if there's no one in" ;)
Hope that helps
Tony
My Mother always said never to argue with fools!
But I never took her advice. ;)
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David slater
Regarding Ewan- when about to reply to a post by the said prat, sit back, take a deep breath & remember this term- "It's no good knocking if there's no one in" ;)
Hope that helps
Tony
;D
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Thats why he's Mr Bungalow, theres nothing up top!!
;D
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Is there anyone there lol. ;D ;D
I've been mad for years, absolutely ******* years, been over the edge for yonks!!
Dark side of the moon. ;)
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Well, since this post has only a few main contributors relating to the actual topic, it seems that all the other uses are using it un-insured as they haven't said how they got it insured.
Seems that only 2 have it properly insured, from what i can see, looks as those those 2 have actually taken the time to ensure they are within regulations.
Thanks to all the contributed with something worthwhile reading (few and far between - like most topics on this site). ::)