Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: DASERVICES on December 22, 2008, 10:42:58 pm
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This is to the phamton Ionics moles that come on here. It is clear and obvious that you guys go all out and try and punish the small guy if he even dares breath the word reach & wash.
Come the big suppliers who use the so called reach & wash in their websites you turn a blind eye for example Brodex use it." Our water purification high - reach & wash machines" So why pick on the small guys and turn a blind eye on others.
Is it the case that you do not own any rights at all.
I know 100% you guys visit this site for the wrong reasons but I strongly feel this is a case of double standards. If you cannot take on your competitors then surely leave the small minors alone.
Sorry but you have to treat everyone equal but it looks like you are not as Brodex and a few are challenging your rights!!!! So in fairness everyone can use your logos and so called phrases!!!
Please feel free to comment.
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lol....it must be the time of year getting to everyone ::)
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Peter it's called greed, not contempt with what they want. Everyone is struggling to make a decent living so why this.
Even I get but problem is what gets said always gets relayed back to me, so yes sorry time on the year.
Apologise but life is too short for people to backstab each other to earn millions!!!!!
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I applaud you Doug,... well said,.. and I agree with your sentiments 100%!
I doubt the Ionics moles will have the balls to reply tho.
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I think the trademark (reach and wash) has reached this point,quote from Wikipedia
A trademark typically becomes "genericized" when the products or services with which it is associated have acquired substantial market dominance or mind share. The term is legally significant in that unless a company works sufficiently to prevent such broad use of its trademark, its intellectual property rights in the trademark may be lost.
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Wouldnt say that they exactly dominate the market would you?
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Why would they listen to your challenge ?
Why would you want to use the R&W logo anyway ?
I would much more promote my business than theres.
Do builders go around with Bosch logos on their vans ?
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I use (& always have) ionics logos, reach & wash etc on all my marketing stuff!
I've said it on here before, if they want to do owt about it then feel free to track me down!
Stuff 'em. :D :D :D :D
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As I've said in the other post:
"Imitation is the greatest form of flattery"
I'm not supporting Ionics, though why even try and get a logo close to theirs if it's not the intention to be perceived as being the same?
How many of us clean windows standing like the ionics man? There are plenty of other designs people can make up to show what they are doing, why copy someone elses.
I think one of the best is actually getting a big photo of yourself on one of your prestige jobs, WFPing the windows and stick that on the side of your van, several carpet cleaners on here do it.
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I really can't understand why someone would rather promote some else's trademark in preference to their own anyway. I would think that when this has happened in the past, it has been by accident when someone hasn't been aware that "Reach and Wash" has been trademarked. To some degree it has become a bit like calling a vacuum cleaner a hoover or a condom a durex. Everyone knows what you mean but those words actually are brand names.
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Just get your logo maker to show where they got the idea from. If it was from many of the copyright FREE books, websites etc then no problem but if you asked them to make one "similar" then your on thin ice.
Logo protection is to protect the company as well as the customers.... Would you like to go in to a takeaway that was called Mcdonalds and looked like Mcdonalds but was infact NOT Mcdonalds....?..... Would you be a bit anoyed if you thought you had bought a new £200 Ipod to discover it was actually an Ip0d worth £20.....?
What would you think if you went into a cafe that had HP sauce bottles on the table but it contained Asda own brand?
If you use Ionics logo but not using their producs then you are a LIAR.
If thelogo happens to be similar but came from a legit sorce then fine. Thats just like a supermarkets ownbrand useing the same colours as a top brand.
Its no good bad mouthing Ionics and then go using their logo to advertise your business....... It would be very hypocritical....
I don't like Ionics because of their high prices and terrible customer care and so I wouldn't even consider using something even similar to their logo. Even when talking to my insurance company about the system in my van and they ask "Is it a reach and wash" I make sure I tell them "Reach and wash is a tradename and that my system is very SIMILAR but not that make"
Regar
Mr H
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Just get your logo maker to show where they got the idea from. If it was from many of the copyright FREE books, websites etc then no problem but if you asked them to make one "similar" then your on thin ice.
Logo protection is to protect the company as well as the customers.... Would you like to go in to a takeaway that was called Mcdonalds and looked like Mcdonalds but was infact NOT Mcdonalds....?..... Would you be a bit anoyed if you thought you had bought a new £200 Ipod to discover it was actually an Ip0d worth £20.....?
What would you think if you went into a cafe that had HP sauce bottles on the table but it contained Asda own brand?
If you use Ionics logo but not using their producs then you are a LIAR.
If thelogo happens to be similar but came from a legit sorce then fine. Thats just like a supermarkets ownbrand useing the same colours as a top brand.
Its no good bad mouthing Ionics and then go using their logo to advertise your business....... It would be very hypocritical....
I don't like Ionics because of their high prices and terrible customer care and so I wouldn't even consider using something even similar to their logo. Even when talking to my insurance company about the system in my van and they ask "Is it a reach and wash" I make sure I tell them "Reach and wash is a tradename and that my system is very SIMILAR but not that make"
Regar
Mr H
I have had the occasional customer ask if I use reach and wash - usually a commercial one. I do tell them it works on the same basic principles, does the same job, but that I'm not allowed to call it that.
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One of my customers called my system a reach and wash the other day !! lol . . I don't want to be associated with ionics in any way. never bought anything from them, never will, not after all the things I've heard and experiences that friends have had with their service.
I think I'll send the details of my customer through to them . . . they can sue him for wrongfully using their name !! ha ha
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I can understand ionics being upset that people use the trademark ionics or the man on there van when they dont have the system but i think its wrong if the word "reach and wash" is wrong as this is like asda or tesco trademarking the word "super market" as its just simple a word to describe what you do.
Chris
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Here is an article some time back :- www.cleaning-matters.co.uk/stories/articles/-/newsletters/2006/october_2006/reach_wash_abusers_face_punishment/
100% agree that the trade is protected. However they cannot argue that the words " reach and wash " are trademarked. You cannot do this and any Court of law would reject it as the words are in the Engilsh dictionary, It is a bit like me running along and and trade marking the words " window cleaner" and then saying I own it. ;D
Their trade mark logo is protected but there is no way they can say they own those two words. I would happily challenge in a court of law as there is no way someone can own words in the English Dictionary even phrase words. I think there is a bit of scare mongering going on.
Yes agree with trade mark but, anyone can use reach and wash.
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GO DOUG <-- in a chanting fashion! :)
Just about to go see Inverclyde and issue another application and cheque.
Doug after new year you fancy meeting for a coffee then? it is Stirling you stay isnt it?
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That would be great. Could even meet you in Cumbernauld, half way.
Give us a bell as often in that area meeting other window cleaners.
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As we speak just had a phone call , I am in Glasgow next week.
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As Doug has said they do have the phrase 'Reach & Wash' trademarked.
www.ipo.gov.uk/ohim?ohimnum=E4682308 (http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ohim?ohimnum=E4682308)
This is simply good business practise to do so and also to defend it so as to keep brand value.
I notice that the phrase 'Reach and Wash' is not trademarked though, probably because it was too generic, maybe?
Brodex may well have gotten around this because of using the phrase 'High-Reach & Wash'.
I notice that Brodex have also gone to a lot of trouble to register a lot of their names as trademarks - I don't notice anyone trying to use theirs unofficially though.
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My new logo is the "Screech and Wash" system. It has the picture of an Owl sitting on a waterfed pole urinating and watching you with it's big eyes.
It's very good because if you infringe my copyright I'll screech at you and wash you at the same time.
Screech and Wash! Screech and Wash! CRRAAAAIGGCK!
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Who in there right mind would want to use that Logo of there's anyway??? It doesn't even represent an image of a window cleaner but a bloke with an Hurnia lifting what looks like a vacuum cleaner that's blocked and what makes me laugh the most, is it cost them hundreds of pounds no wonder they want to protect it.
Most customers understand plain English, go to a new customer and say I use reach & wash and they'll look at you, as if you have a speech impediment, tell them how the system works in plain English and they'll understand every time.
Why bother with reach & wash, there system reminds me of something similar Brits used to say about the Yanks during WW2, Overpaid over sexed and over here.
We could start a new phrase about ionics, Over price over engineered and over here
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My new logo is the "Screech and Wash" system. It has the picture of an Owl sitting on a waterfed pole urinating and watching you with it's big eyes.
It's very good because if you infringe my copyright I'll screech at you and wash you at the same time.
Screech and Wash! Screech and Wash! CRRAAAAIGGCK!
Malc. As there are a lot of people on here who are of a certain persuasion, I was wondering if someone might want to trademark "Preach & Wash".
Not having a pop at anyone. Just a little humour. :)
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Who in there right mind would want to use that Logo of there's anyway??? It doesn't even represent an image of a window cleaner but a bloke with an Hurnia lifting what looks like a vacuum cleaner that's blocked and what makes me laugh the most, is it cost them hundreds of pounds no wonder they want to protect it.
Most customers understand plain English, go to a new customer and say I use reach & wash and they'll look at you, as if you have a speech impediment, tell them how the system works in plain English and they'll understand every time.
Why bother with reach & wash, there system reminds me of something similar Brits used to say about the Yanks during WW2, Overpaid over sexed and over here.
We could start a new phrase about ionics, Over price over engineered and over here
The story behind that image is that the man is made of water - its the water doing the work.
I thought it was rather well thought out myself.
I too have used Ionics logos, promo material (photos/images) on website in the past, but i have now since removed them for i do not use Ionics equipment anymore, therefore i dont see why i should "follow the herd" and use them cos everyone else does. I will be using my own logos and photographs from now on.
exactly like Dave morris @ st-ives
Why would you want to use the R&W logo anyway ?
I would much more promote my business than theres.
Do builders go around with Bosch logos on their vans ?
Call it what it is.
Water Fed Pole window cleaning.
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None of my customers, including mainly commercial clients have ever asked me if I have a 'Reach & Wash' system. Most of them have never heard of this type of system in the first place and wouldn't know an Ionics from a Hoover! Let alone a Brodex/Pure Freedom/Facelift/etc.
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I have always felt that the Ionics logo would mean absolutely nothing to person on the street.
To be an effective advert for your services, the logo needs to be instantly understood, and demonstrate that you can solve a problem that person has.
That logo is only understood by other Water-fed pole window cleaners.
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This is to the phamton Ionics moles that come on here. It is clear and obvious that you guys go all out and try and punish the small guy if he even dares breath the word reach & wash.
Come the big suppliers who use the so called reach & wash in their websites you turn a blind eye for example Brodex use it." Our water purification high - reach & wash machines" So why pick on the small guys and turn a blind eye on others.
Is it the case that you do not own any rights at all.
I know 100% you guys visit this site for the wrong reasons but I strongly feel this is a case of double standards. If you cannot take on your competitors then surely leave the small minors alone.
Sorry but you have to treat everyone equal but it looks like you are not as Brodex and a few are challenging your rights!!!! So in fairness everyone can use your logos and so called phrases!!!
Please feel free to comment.
brdoex have until the 9th of jan to remove the reach and wash bit according to them when i spoke to them regarding my van today.
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excuse my typing...brodex ::)
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Here is an article some time back :- www.cleaning-matters.co.uk/stories/articles/-/newsletters/2006/october_2006/reach_wash_abusers_face_punishment/
100% agree that the trade is protected. However they cannot argue that the words " reach and wash " are trademarked. You cannot do this and any Court of law would reject it as the words are in the Engilsh dictionary, It is a bit like me running along and and trade marking the words " window cleaner" and then saying I own it. ;D
Their trade mark logo is protected but there is no way they can say they own those two words. I would happily challenge in a court of law as there is no way someone can own words in the English Dictionary even phrase words. I think there is a bit of scare mongering going on.
Yes agree with trade mark but, anyone can use reach and wash.
if every english word was trad marked, how could we speak :-X
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It`s trademarked for the industry it`s in ie window cleaning,anything to do with WC reach and wash belongs to ionic.What about if you had the robotic bloke pointing the other way on the van lol. ;D
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What if you said the bloke wasnt meant to be a representation of a man made from water but a man made from mercury or any other liquid? Put some tits on him and its a woman.
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What if you said the bloke wasnt meant to be a representation of a man made from water but a man made from mercury or any other liquid? Put some tits on him and its a woman.
Lol Well he is using a hoover or is it a carpet cleaner? it cetainly doesn't look like a wfp to me.
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If i ever did put anything on my van i wouldn`t be stupid enough to post pictures on a forum asking if it was alright lol,who looks in your van and who would be interested in seeing if you have a genuine system from them,i`ve seen lots of vans with there print on them but i`ve never felt the need to nose inside to see if there breaking copyright laws.Like i said before if you`d had kept your mouth shut you could have had it on the van for years.
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If i ever did put anything on my van i wouldn`t be stupid enough to post pictures on a forum
I have to say I understand your viewpoint.
I have my van sign written with the Ionics logo, its plastered all over my van and its got me loads of work, LOADS!!! but havent got any of there kit in my setup (no poles, no brushes no system no nought)
matt@oakleywindowcleaning.co.uk ::)
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If i ever did put anything on my van i wouldn`t be stupid enough to post pictures on a forum asking if it was alright lol,who looks in your van and who would be interested in seeing if you have a genuine system from them,i`ve seen lots of vans with there print on them but i`ve never felt the need to nose inside to see if there breaking copyright laws.Like i said before if you`d had kept your mouth shut you could have had it on the van for years.
You know someone who has got it on there van but theyve actually got a brodex system, they live near you and there van is silver, oh and they wanted to go into business with you at one stage, can you guess
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change it to "wash & go" but then you might get done by nick parks
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If a manufacturer or shop or such like make a choice that makes say, the headlines and a very small amount of their POTENTIAL customers take a disliking to them then no big deal its mostly the non-customers that are changing their opinions but for something like this which is petty at best tp be on a WC forum which is 100% the best marketplace for good reputation makes me think mabie Ionic systems are not as smart as first interperated. I mean if you had a forum that had 1500 poeple wanting their windows cleaned in your area would you slap a post om the forum telling one of them they are doing something wrong and TELLING them to do something or face court??? NO!
Im a thinking if someone called Ionics and spoke to the boss there, and told him/her the bad press that is taking place on here over a picture of a funny looking ergonome type man that clearly is not an attempt to copy their prized logo, he would be pi**ed at best.
BTW... haven't you all heard of the "no purcahse necassery" lawfull agreement?
If you are allowed to use the Ionics logo thing when you have baught a system then they cannot tell you that you cant if you have not baught one, in my perception of the law in question it would be illegal to do so. :P
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If i ever did put anything on my van i wouldn`t be stupid enough to post pictures on a forum asking if it was alright lol,who looks in your van and who would be interested in seeing if you have a genuine system from them,i`ve seen lots of vans with there print on them but i`ve never felt the need to nose inside to see if there breaking copyright laws.Like i said before if you`d had kept your mouth shut you could have had it on the van for years.
You know someone who has got it on there van but theyve actually got a brodex system, they live near you and there van is silver, oh and they wanted to go into business with you at one stage, can you guess
LOL alright Chris,no actually he does have a thermopure 1000ltr in a movano.He pays or paid about £750 a month for it and asked me if he could go in with me,i asked him if he liked plums and if he did he could have a suck on mine lol,what an idiot that bloke is he does that whole hotel i told you about for free gym memebership that`s worth a tenner a week.
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Some customers moan about all the water left by the WFP method and to have Ionic's Reach & Wash logo on your van with what looks like a pole flooding below doesn't make good common sense IMO. Their logo portrays a poor visual image of WFP IMO.
I'm not trying to put Ionics down in any way as I have their gutterkeeper, two of their pole racks, their hosereel (which I thoroughly recommend although pricey) and a couple of their ergolite poles. I must admit their ergolite poles were the most rigid and lightest when they first starting selling them in the UK until Gardinerpolesystems came along and gave them some healthy competition.
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The info must be wrong then as i was told he now has a static brodex system and fills to his tank, Not a banatynes member ship is it, he is ruining wfp round here as he is splash and dash, im having to tell new custys after theyve had him that if there not happy with my clean with wfp ill refund them but its still tough, I use going to a restaurant and having a dodgy mill as chef is bad doesnt mean they would never eat out again and they give me a chance then,
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Some customers moan about all the water left by the WFP method and to have Ionic's Reach & Wash logo on your van with what looks like a pole flooding below doesn't make good common sense IMO. Their logo portrays a poor visual image of WFP IMO.
I'm not trying to put Ionics down in any way as I have their gutterkeeper, two of their pole racks, their hosereel (which I thoroughly recommend although pricey) and a couple of their ergolite poles. I must admit their ergolite poles were the most rigid and lightest when they first starting selling them in the UK until Gardinerpolesystems came along and gave them some healthy competition.
I`ve often thought that myself,i can just imagine them saying that` what your windows look like when there done.I don`t mean to keep harping on about hot water and all that but i must admit by the time you`ve done the windows more often than not there dry,even on the coldest of days they dry in no time and apart from cleaning better that i would consider an added bonus.
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Some customers moan about all the water left by the WFP method and to have Ionic's Reach & Wash logo on your van with what looks like a pole flooding below doesn't make good common sense IMO. Their logo portrays a poor visual image of WFP IMO.
I'm not trying to put Ionics down in any way as I have their gutterkeeper, two of their pole racks, their hosereel (which I thoroughly recommend although pricey) and a couple of their ergolite poles. I must admit their ergolite poles were the most rigid and lightest when they first starting selling them in the UK until Gardinerpolesystems came along and gave them some healthy competition.
One word in there sums them up nicely
PRICEY
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No it`s not Banatynes,he did have a 1000ltr Thermopure in a Movano about a 54 reg i think he only lives 5 mins from me,he was 1 of the ones that went into WC with no experience at all of the job and was sold it on the course.His prices were so cheap you could never compete with him,when he first started he had the ionic leaflets they give you with your details printed on them for advertising and he dropped most of the area with little joy i`m told but i`m not surprised with his attitude.I reckon he got some sort of big payout from somewhere cos he didin`t seem bothered about not having much work up until he approached me,he uses 40ft + fiberglass poles and spends all his time looking at people walking past him if i see him now i just drive on can`t be doing with him.
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Yer he still got the movano so probs still got the ionics system, sorry to hijack thread but the hot system your mate done is he going to do anymore if so could you email me a price.
Cheers
Chris
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Malc. As there are a lot of people on here who are of a certain persuasion, I was wondering if someone might want to trademark "Preach & Wash".
Not having a pop at anyone. Just a little humour. :)
Shiner, would "Preach & Wash-tower" bring a lawsuit from the USA? :)
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Malc. As there are a lot of people on here who are of a certain persuasion, I was wondering if someone might want to trademark "Preach & Wash".
Not having a pop at anyone. Just a little humour. :)
Shiner, would "Preach & Wash-tower" bring a lawsuit from the USA? :)
Very good ;D
www.wash-tower.org (http://www.watchtower.org)
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LMAO@ Matt!
Good one!
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Yer he still got the movano so probs still got the ionics system, sorry to hijack thread but the hot system your mate done is he going to do anymore if so could you email me a price.
Cheers
Chris
If you want an L5 heater with gas filler look on page2 of the threads under L5 heater,you can buy mine if you want.I got mine from Varitech and am well pleased with it,i paid just shy of 3k with fitting but a firm in Bexhill fitted it.
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So many people hate Ionics . . and it's all coming out in this topic !!!
I'll be honest, I've been put off totally by their "Better than everyone else" attitude. Also, the bad reports from people that have their system.
The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.
Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.
In all honesty, I have borrowed an ergolite and I wasn't that impressed.
Last year I talked to Alex at Gardiners poles and he told me good and bad points about all different makes of poles. The choice was then left up to me. At no point did I sense a "My poles are the best, all the rest are rubbish" attitude.
Still, I'm sure that Ionics will continue to get sales from the "Just starting up but don't really know what it SHOULD cost" group out there.
Meanwhile, others with sense will do their research and find a better deal with the likes of Gardiners poles or pure freedom, etc.
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Malc. As there are a lot of people on here who are of a certain persuasion, I was wondering if someone might want to trademark "Preach & Wash".
Not having a pop at anyone. Just a little humour. :)
Shiner, would "Preach & Wash-tower" bring a lawsuit from the USA? :)
Well you just never know Malc :) .
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I'll be honest, I've been put off totally by their "Better than everyone else" attitude. Also, the bad reports from people that have their system.
The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.
Last year I talked to Alex at Gardiners poles and he told me good and bad points about all different makes of poles. The choice was then left up to me. At no point did I sense a "My poles are the best, all the rest are rubbish" attitude.
Self explanatory isnt it
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So many people hate Ionics . . and it's all coming out in this topic !!!
I'll be honest, I've been put off totally by their "Better than everyone else" attitude. Also, the bad reports from people that have their system.
The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.
Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.
In all honesty, I have borrowed an ergolite and I wasn't that impressed.
Last year I talked to Alex at Gardiners poles and he told me good and bad points about all different makes of poles. The choice was then left up to me. At no point did I sense a "My poles are the best, all the rest are rubbish" attitude.
Still, I'm sure that Ionics will continue to get sales from the "Just starting up but don't really know what it SHOULD cost" group out there.
Meanwhile, others with sense will do their research and find a better deal with the likes of Gardiners poles or pure freedom, etc.
I've never had a problem with Ionics myself. So long as people remember that they are another supply company selling their wares who are good at marketing then there's no problem IMO. I've had three of their poles at various times and the poles were OK. I've never had anything else from them though.
Maybe it would be better to focus on their marketing, look at how they do it, and try to transfer those skills into our own businesses. As for how they market, take what you want from it and leave the rest behind.
I can't say I'm too enamoured by what I perceive as the bullying of the small guy but I do understand their thinking even though I find it questionable.
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So many people hate Ionics . . and it's all coming out in this topic !!!
I'll be honest, I've been put off totally by their "Better than everyone else" attitude. Also, the bad reports from people that have their system.
The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.
Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.
In all honesty, I have borrowed an ergolite and I wasn't that impressed.
Last year I talked to Alex at Gardiners poles and he told me good and bad points about all different makes of poles. The choice was then left up to me. At no point did I sense a "My poles are the best, all the rest are rubbish" attitude.
Still, I'm sure that Ionics will continue to get sales from the "Just starting up but don't really know what it SHOULD cost" group out there.
Meanwhile, others with sense will do their research and find a better deal with the likes of Gardiners poles or pure freedom, etc.
Now thats very interesting Paul,
I seem to remember one of Ionics magazines earlier this year (or was it BWCA?...lol) comparing poles 'like for like' and side by side. Unless Alex artificially jigged the results (which I doubt very much) then I dont see a problem with comparing equipment from other manufacturers...and neither does Ionics apparently!!
What possible grounds could they give for asking their poles not to be compared in a straight 'like for like' test?
I tend to agree with Inoics on their 'R&W' and logo issues. They've spent a lot of money developing and fine tuning their name and logos and it hardly seems fair that somebody can just look at it and say - thats nice, I'm having that.
I'm sure OCS, Mitie, Intial Services would have issues if you "copied" their designs...as would McDonalds, Bosch or any other firm. I'm sure you wouldnt be too happy if you saw a beer money boy walking round town in a uniform which appeared to be a direct copy of yours!!
Does R&W or the BT pan pipes man ;) actually mean anything to a customer? - My thought is no, it doesnt. It MEANS something within our industry to other window cleaners and other suppliers but thats about it.
I challenge anybody to show me customers who actually understand and recognise Ionics logos/words.
If you do have customers who understand the Ionnics logos -
1. How do they know of Ionics?
2. Why do they think it is better than Brodex, Gardiners, Pure Freedom etc..?
3. What BENEFITS do they percieve from their window cleaner using Ionics over other WFP units?
4. Can they recognise the brand?
5. What does the brand MEAN to them?
6. What PREMIUM are they willing to pay to have an Ionics window cleaner as apposed to another system user?
7 etc etc etc...
If you asked these questions about McDonalds or Bosch everyone would know the 'brand names' and would most likely know the products and give you a fairly decent answer to each question.
Seeing as Ionics only advertise to the trade how could customers possibly be aware of their products? So how could it possibly generate you work?
Yep, they've got nice sign-writing and it looks very slick but that has nothing to do with the actual 'brand name' of Ionics - its their designs that appeal, not THEIR NAME.
I say leave Ionics with their logos and trademark words. Anyone who honestly thinks using their branding gets extra work is seriously deluded.
Would a Joiner get more work if he was using a £700 DeWalt drill over a £20 B&Q drill?....or is it more likely he gets work because he does a good job No matter which drill he uses?
Why would you want to promote somebody elses business on your vehicle anyway?
If you've paid for an Ionics system, then part of that deal also gets you a licence to use the logos, artwork and trademarks which must make life very easy for a lot of guys. Maybe because they dont know how to go about designing their own logos/artwork or maybe its easier (if a little expensive) to have it all done by one company?
You need to create your own uniform, paperwork, website, invoices, letterheads, business cards, leaflets, flyers...etc etc So why should the vehicle livery be any different?
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My diy system comprising of a second hand tank £60, pump + varistream £200 + Harris pole £15, is a reach and wash system because thats what it does! it reaches and it washes!! And it does it better than any ridiculously expensive ionics system ;)
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The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.
Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.
If that is true than Ionics are way out of order, talk about wanting to be greedy in this world.
In my honest opnion Craig is a very good sales man but sometimes he goes way over the top. As a lot of you know a certain new window cleaning association was being formed then he goes and patient their name. That really showed his true colours but this Gardiners thing has gone way too far.
When I first saw the Ionics logo I was not impressed with it at all as they would do nothing in attracting customers for me. Ionics are well known for their pricy systems. So for me their logo stands for "NICK ME"
I apologise to those who have had it done but it stands out a mile for the crook who knows it is an expensive system.
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The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.
Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.
If that is true than Ionics are way out of order, talk about wanting to be greedy in this world.
In my honest opnion Craig is a very good sales man but sometimes he goes way over the top. As a lot of you know a certain new window cleaning association was being formed then he goes and patient their name. That really showed his true colours but this Gardiners thing has gone way too far.
just another thinly disguised attempt to be a spokesperson for ALL window cleaners, but in reality just another reason to be able to control the industry that we work in :(
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They have done them selfs more harm than good looking at this topic, let me give there so called good salesman a tip?
If you do a good Job your customers will tell just a few people, If You do a bad Job then your customers will tell everyone, take a look at this topic as I know you have and rethink your sales tactics.
I totally agree with you taking steps to protect your logo but when it comes to protecting words that most of the guy's on here use every day, then you went a step to far.
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Look guys we're all having a moan at this company's business practices. But it doesn't affect us really does it?
Why would I want to put their logo on my vans? Only if I perceive that it adds to my reputation. Now.... if that is true then don't they have a point? If they've registered it then fair do's.
Now, the phrase "reach and wash" is open to interpretation. If I am trying to give the impression that I use "The Reach and Wash System" from Ionics then is that fair when I do not have their system? I think not.
But if I write in (say) orange Ariel script lettering "Malc Gold - reach and wash window cleaning" with no Ionics logo I would say that is less clear.
A traditional window cleaner is a reach and wash window cleaner in that he reaches and washes (with his applicator!).
So perhaps the issue is whether I am trying to give the impression I have an Ionics system when I have not.
And if I am and Ionics get their panties in a bunch over it (which from my perspective is a bit sad but each to his own - that's why CM drives some top of the range monzster-wagen kompressor jobby and i have a Pug 406 estate!) then I have to be prepared to explain myself, if necessary legally, or accept the consequences.
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Very nicely put Malc.
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Im sure its been used, but i don't think its been trademarked, why not use "Reach and Clean" sounds better for window cleaners IMO. unless your not a window cleaner and infact a window washer.
;D
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The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.
Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.
If that is true than Ionics are way out of order, talk about wanting to be greedy in this world.
In my honest opnion Craig is a very good sales man but sometimes he goes way over the top. As a lot of you know a certain new window cleaning association was being formed then he goes and patient their name. That really showed his true colours but this Gardiners thing has gone way too far.
When I first saw the Ionics logo I was not impressed with it at all as they would do nothing in attracting customers for me. Ionics are well known for their pricy systems. So for me their logo stands for "NICK ME"
I apologise to those who have had it done but it stands out a mile for the crook who knows it is an expensive system.
When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing. Can't recall the reason given. However, they are perfectly entitled not to have their products put on test by another manufacturer. I trust Alex G and believe he would have given a totally fair test.
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The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.
Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.
If that is true than Ionics are way out of order, talk about wanting to be greedy in this world.
In my honest opnion Craig is a very good sales man but sometimes he goes way over the top. As a lot of you know a certain new window cleaning association was being formed then he goes and patient their name. That really showed his true colours but this Gardiners thing has gone way too far.
When I first saw the Ionics logo I was not impressed with it at all as they would do nothing in attracting customers for me. Ionics are well known for their pricy systems. So for me their logo stands for "NICK ME"
I apologise to those who have had it done but it stands out a mile for the crook who knows it is an expensive system.
When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing. Can't recall the reason given. However, they are perfectly entitled not to have their products put on test by another manufacturer. I trust Alex G and believe he would have given a totally fair test.
On what grounds can they refuse to have their equipment tested by another manufacturer?
Are you suggesting BWCA has no links with Inoics???
It strikes me the market leader has something to hide over how it justifies it prices ;)
Methinks the lady doth protest too much ;D
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The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.
Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.
If that is true than Ionics are way out of order, talk about wanting to be greedy in this world.
In my honest opnion Craig is a very good sales man but sometimes he goes way over the top. As a lot of you know a certain new window cleaning association was being formed then he goes and patient their name. That really showed his true colours but this Gardiners thing has gone way too far.
When I first saw the Ionics logo I was not impressed with it at all as they would do nothing in attracting customers for me. Ionics are well known for their pricy systems. So for me their logo stands for "NICK ME"
I apologise to those who have had it done but it stands out a mile for the crook who knows it is an expensive system.
When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing. Can't recall the reason given. However, they are perfectly entitled not to have their products put on test by another manufacturer. I trust Alex G and believe he would have given a totally fair test.
On what grounds can they refuse to have their equipment tested by another manufacturer?
Are you suggesting BWCA has no links with Inoics???
It strikes me the market leader has something to hide over how it justifies it prices ;)
Methinks the lady doth protest too much ;D
Maybe I should have said not put to the test by another manufacturer AND have those results published. I'm not referring to law. I'm referring to moral grounds.
I don't know how you deduced from my post that you think I was saying that BWCA and Ionics have no links.
I've never had a problem with Ionics myself but I would agree that their equipment is pricey. They manage to achieve that by marketing it well. Isn't that what a lot of us W/Cs try to do - obtain the highest price we can manage by selling ourselves and our cleaning methods to our (potential) customers? There's nothing new in what Ionics do. It's just that those of us who've been around the block a bit know the score.
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I use an ionics system, and i have the logo. I like it and yes i think it has helped me get work, especially commercial. If you dont have one then you shouldnt really use their logo should you! Sorry but it seems rather obvious to me.
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The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.
Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.
If that is true than Ionics are way out of order, talk about wanting to be greedy in this world.
In my honest opnion Craig is a very good sales man but sometimes he goes way over the top. As a lot of you know a certain new window cleaning association was being formed then he goes and patient their name. That really showed his true colours but this Gardiners thing has gone way too far.
When I first saw the Ionics logo I was not impressed with it at all as they would do nothing in attracting customers for me. Ionics are well known for their pricy systems. So for me their logo stands for "NICK ME"
I apologise to those who have had it done but it stands out a mile for the crook who knows it is an expensive system.
When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing. Can't recall the reason given. However, they are perfectly entitled not to have their products put on test by another manufacturer. I trust Alex G and believe he would have given a totally fair test.
On what grounds can they refuse to have their equipment tested by another manufacturer?
Are you suggesting BWCA has no links with Inoics???
It strikes me the market leader has something to hide over how it justifies it prices ;)
Methinks the lady doth protest too much ;D
Maybe I should have said not put to the test by another manufacturer AND have those results published. I'm not referring to law. I'm referring to moral grounds.
I don't know how you deduced from my post that you think I was saying that BWCA and Ionics have no links.
I've never had a problem with Ionics myself but I would agree that their equipment is pricey. They manage to achieve that by marketing it well. Isn't that what a lot of us W/Cs try to do - obtain the highest price we can manage by selling ourselves and our cleaning methods to our (potential) customers? There's nothing new in what Ionics do. It's just that those of us who've been around the block a bit know the score.
Shiner,
I think we all suspect that Inoics and BWCA have a commercial and/or financial link to each other (who are the directors/founders/paid advisors/consultants for each body)...
What I suggest is Ionics hides behind BWCA as an "independent organisation" to provide supposedly impartial tests of other manufacturers equipment.....and surprise! surprise! Inocs always comes out as the winner.
Isnt that strange?
Lets presume you havent been 'around the block' (presuming Inocs market share comes from new entrants) .....would you then agree that Inocs may be skewing "independent tests" in their favour by using the 'independent body' namely BWCA?
Should Trading Standards be informed of this situation?
Big Boys who throw their weight around must surely realise that somebody, somewhere is going to challenge them some day ;)
Maybe the same person who kicked up all this fuss over their logos will also have a word with Trading Standards over the relationship of Inocs/BWCA and whether that relationship is really 'independent'?
...or maybe somebody else will have to have a word ;)
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Dave,
This will answer your questions:- www.cleanitup.co.uk/forum/8324588701.html
What a blast from the past ;D
Ionics / Craig used Cleanitup as a launch to promote his company like many others have done in the past.
Interesting old comment " Letters will be sent to other leading manufacturers in the near future asking for sponsorship support, in the event that they accept you can expect to see their products used during the appropriate practical elements of the training. "
Alex have you had yours for the Superlite ;D ;D
Joking aside Craig has window cleaning at heart but needs to work with the industry and not try and fight other suppliers and window cleaners. We are all struggling to make a living so could do without petty hurdles.
-
The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.
Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.
If that is true than Ionics are way out of order, talk about wanting to be greedy in this world.
In my honest opnion Craig is a very good sales man but sometimes he goes way over the top. As a lot of you know a certain new window cleaning association was being formed then he goes and patient their name. That really showed his true colours but this Gardiners thing has gone way too far.
When I first saw the Ionics logo I was not impressed with it at all as they would do nothing in attracting customers for me. Ionics are well known for their pricy systems. So for me their logo stands for "NICK ME"
I apologise to those who have had it done but it stands out a mile for the crook who knows it is an expensive system.
When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing. Can't recall the reason given. However, they are perfectly entitled not to have their products put on test by another manufacturer. I trust Alex G and believe he would have given a totally fair test.
On what grounds can they refuse to have their equipment tested by another manufacturer?
Are you suggesting BWCA has no links with Inoics???
It strikes me the market leader has something to hide over how it justifies it prices ;)
Methinks the lady doth protest too much ;D
Maybe I should have said not put to the test by another manufacturer AND have those results published. I'm not referring to law. I'm referring to moral grounds.
I don't know how you deduced from my post that you think I was saying that BWCA and Ionics have no links.
I've never had a problem with Ionics myself but I would agree that their equipment is pricey. They manage to achieve that by marketing it well. Isn't that what a lot of us W/Cs try to do - obtain the highest price we can manage by selling ourselves and our cleaning methods to our (potential) customers? There's nothing new in what Ionics do. It's just that those of us who've been around the block a bit know the score.
Shiner,
I think we all suspect that Inoics and BWCA have a commercial and/or financial link to each other (who are the directors/founders/paid advisors/consultants for each body)...
What I suggest is Ionics hides behind BWCA as an "independent organisation" to provide supposedly impartial tests of other manufacturers equipment.....and surprise! surprise! Inocs always comes out as the winner.
Isnt that strange?
Lets presume you havent been 'around the block' (presuming Inocs market share comes from new entrants) .....would you then agree that Inocs may be skewing "independent tests" in their favour by using the 'independent body' namely BWCA?
Should Trading Standards be informed of this situation?
Big Boys who throw their weight around must surely realise that somebody, somewhere is going to challenge them some day ;)
Maybe the same person who kicked up all this fuss over their logos will also have a word with Trading Standards over the relationship of Inocs/BWCA and whether that relationship is really 'independent'?
...or maybe somebody else will have to have a word ;)
Totally agree with you about BWCA masquerading as an independent. I've said the same myself before.
I hadn't thought about the Trading Standards side of things but you may have a point there.
I think Ionics would be better advised to simply advertise their equipment as being a quality poduct without a pretend independent entering the equation.
When I wrote about taking a leaf out of the Ionics' marketing book, I wasn't referring to subterfuge. IMO they are good enough marketers not to need to resort to such tactics.
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When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing. Can't recall the reason given.
No they weren't.
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its common knowledge that Ironics and BWCA are 1 in the same, they dont even hide the fact, its the same as that mag they send out, they dont hide that fact that its just ironics, they are not independent in the slightest
they did the test with the poles, found out that certain poles were better, so just excluding them from the results, lets face it, it was plain to see what happened
the danger is that craig does become and spokesperson for the industry, BUT only feathers his nest by looking after ironics customers
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Dave,
This will answer your questions:- www.cleanitup.co.uk/forum/8324588701.html
What a blast from the past ;D
Ionics / Craig used Cleanitup as a launch to promote his company like many others have done in the past.
Interesting old comment " Letters will be sent to other leading manufacturers in the near future asking for sponsorship support, in the event that they accept you can expect to see their products used during the appropriate practical elements of the training. "
Alex have you had yours for the Superlite ;D ;D
Joking aside Craig has window cleaning at heart but needs to work with the industry and not try and fight other suppliers and window cleaners. We are all struggling to make a living so could do without petty hurdles.
what a funny link, thanks doug
notice the post by Philip Hanson
Posted by Silly_Philly (Philip Hanson), 11 March 2004
Quote:
Ionic systems does not own the BWCA, the BWCA is a separate legal entity. In line with its commitment to the Window Cleaning industry Ionic systems sponsors the BWCA by providing facilities within its premises
But, doesnt it have the same directors, and the same registered office? I would bet the shareholders are the same as well. So, although legally Ionic do not own it, substantially they do, do they not?
I think its misleading to say that Ionic "sponsor" the BWCA as it quite clearly is an Ionic creation. Not of course that would make it any the worse, as Ionic is an industry leader. But please, lets not pretend that Ionic, out of the kindness of their hearts (or because they are so committed to helping us poor window cleaners) have given support to an academic institution whose only function is education. If that were true, the BWCA would be a non-profit making organization, run by a trust for example, not a private limited company.
I am not for a moment pulling down the BWCA, I'm sure the training is of an excellent standard. Actually I am considering attending some of the courses myself. But lets be honest and open about how it came to be, and its relationship with Ionic.
Philip
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D that must have been before her went over to the darkside and took them pieces of gold from craig ( a bag full of gold for your soul :P ), sorry Philip ;D ;D ;D
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When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing. Can't recall the reason given.
No they weren't.
Some carbon modular poles were excluded (such as the Super-Lite®2 which had recently been introduced) - The paragraph in the Autumn 2007 Issue 10 PWC Magazine said that "We did not test (these) poles....... as they are simply not robust enough for the job of window cleaning, regardless of what some suppliers claim."
The Unger CarbonTec pole was included in the test, but window cleaners that liked such modular poles were dismissed as "fanboys".
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Dave,
This will answer your questions:- www.cleanitup.co.uk/forum/8324588701.html
The thing that got me about that thread was him saying you wouldn't be able to get insurance without one of these NVQs from the BWCA...... My insurance company has NEVER asked me if I have any formal training or qualifications.....
Sounds like he's good material for a top job with the Fed if he is talking such rubbish.
Regards
Mr H
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When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing. Can't recall the reason given.
No they weren't.
Some carbon modular poles were excluded (such as the Super-Lite®2 which had recently been introduced) - The paragraph in the Autumn 2007 Issue 10 PWC Magazine said that "We did not test (these) poles....... as they are simply not robust enough for the job of window cleaning, regardless of what some suppliers claim."
The Unger CarbonTec pole was included in the test, but window cleaners that liked such modular poles were dismissed as "fanboys".
OK Alex. I wasn't correct then as the Unger pole was included. I do recall that there was some type of exclusion but not the exact wording. Thanks for clarifying. I was just checking through the back issues and typically, probably the only one that is missing is the one with the pole test in it. Such is life.
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When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing. Can't recall the reason given.
No they weren't.
Some carbon modular poles were excluded (such as the Super-Lite®2 which had recently been introduced) - The paragraph in the Autumn 2007 Issue 10 PWC Magazine said that "We did not test (these) poles....... as they are simply not robust enough for the job of window cleaning, regardless of what some suppliers claim."
The Unger CarbonTec pole was included in the test, but window cleaners that liked such modular poles were dismissed as "fanboys".
OK Alex. I wasn't correct then as the Unger pole was included. I do recall that there was some type of exclusion but not the exact wording. Thanks for clarifying. I was just checking through the back issues and typically, probably the only one that is missing is the one with the pole test in it. Such is life.
what you keep them :o :o
you will be on ironics christmas list next year ;)
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I use an ionics system, and i have the logo. I like it and yes i think it has helped me get work, especially commercial. If you dont have one then you shouldnt really use their logo should you! Sorry but it seems rather obvious to me.
Just out of curiosity, how did it help you get work?
Was it that the customer knew of the Ionics systems? - why did he think water pumped through an Incos system was superior to any other RO/DI system?
Was it the signwriting on the van? - As mentioned, they do have nice artwork and we should respect their copyright/trademarks. Is the artwork really worth that much?
I honestly dont see how using an Alex Gardiner, Brodex, Unger, Pure Freedom, DIY or indeed an Inoincs piece of kit will win (or lose!) you work. Surely its your quality, price, reputation, standards, professional image etc etc that will win work?
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Well said , you are the salesman. The customer does not care what you have in the back of the van
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These ionics threads always make me laugh.
Good ponts raised but every negative angle gets raised. They always end up a bashing thread.
There's always gonna be inconsistencies in business practice.
I'm sure they would love to be able to cleanse the country of any non ionic user with their logo, or using the phrase "reach and wash." But they have to find out 1st and then they have to pay to get legal about it.
Sending a letter to the little man is much cheaper than going after someone who might take them on.
I also can't see a problem with them being perceived to be major representatives of the window cleaning industry. They haven't elbowed people out of the way to become major players, they have created everything ionics related.
They have targeted the top end customer and i'm sure spend heavily to do this. What they are doing overall really should be applauded. They have to protect their brand now they have spent heavily to create one.
I think an email is pretty sociable after reading MJH's post.
Anyway, it is easy to call them out on this forum because anyone who has been here a while, will know that they stopped trying to defend themselves years ago.
Pity really, because doug and a couple of others have raised points that i would be curious to know the answer to.
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If i had an ionics system and had paid not only for the kit but the branding i wouldn't be too keen if i saw someone in barreled up mondeo with wash and reach written on it.
The people who have systems report misusers, and the company sends out letters.Simple.
Doug has good points about licenses, but is not the best of examples himself to be advising govt.
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wash and reach
Well done discount! you have just invented a great new slogan!!! I'm going to get that written on the side of my van right away!!! Thanks! ;)
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My system DOESN'T reach and wash because I use it many times every day...
My system it reaches and washes..... ;D
I still wouldn't have it on my van though..... I charge people if they want to advertise on my van ust like they would want to charge me......
Regards
Mr H
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I have got one of their brush heads, can I use their logo now.?
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Reach and Clean ;D
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When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing. Can't recall the reason given.
No they weren't.
Some carbon modular poles were excluded (such as the Super-Lite®2 which had recently been introduced) - The paragraph in the Autumn 2007 Issue 10 PWC Magazine said that "We did not test (these) poles....... as they are simply not robust enough for the job of window cleaning, regardless of what some suppliers claim."
The Unger CarbonTec pole was included in the test, but window cleaners that liked such modular poles were dismissed as "fanboys".
OK Alex. I wasn't correct then as the Unger pole was included. I do recall that there was some type of exclusion but not the exact wording. Thanks for clarifying. I was just checking through the back issues and typically, probably the only one that is missing is the one with the pole test in it. Such is life.
what you keep them :o :o
you will be on ironics christmas list next year ;)
There seems to be at least one thing of interest to me in each issue. Maybe I should just scan the bits I find interesting and dump the magazines as I'm going through a de-cluttering phase.