Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: suds window service on December 22, 2008, 06:25:04 pm
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i would just like to thank the person who emailed ionics with pictures of my newly signed van......
i have received an email off them telling me that the likeness is to similar and must be removed.
i am no legal expert so will have to take some advice.
so once again thanks!
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Richard, Ionics come on here under sudo names. Don't think it would be anyone else. They don't post just spy ;)
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:o Who would do that?
I may be trying to make excuses for someone here but could Ionic people not be registered users of this forum?
I see loads of vans going about with that man shaped thing on it so its not as if they police the streets looking for violators, what would i do?
tell them its painted on and its not as easy as just peeling it off, if they pay for it to be removed then fine, it may look similar but it is not a rip-off or copy of theirs. is theirs a registered trademark???
So Nestle make a mars bar which is a great seller and tesco make a mar bar then if it is not an exact copy of the original trademarked product then surely there is no copyright ???
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that's bad crack. from your other post you did it off misadvice, and wern't trying to rip anyone off.
the way i got your posts were that if you were in the wrong you would get it sorted.
I just wonder if the good citizen will fess up to the help they have given you.
just rememder and run the new logo here first before getting it printed
Niall
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Just take your Ionic lookalike logo off - the van will get you plenty of business with "suds" and the rest of it.
Yeah I know there are no suds with wfp but it plays well to people's perceptions - just like a level crossing sign sometimes has a picture of a steam engine on it but we haven't had steam engines on the main rail network since 1968 - it still gets the message across.
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Well, do they also expect you to prove you've removed it?
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Do you have to have there system as i know someone who use to have there system but has every size ionics pole in the back of his van (and roof) and i think he would flip his lid if they told him to remove the ionics logo as the poles and brushes he has are probably more expensive then the systems.
Chris
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buy a brush of them, you then have ionics kit.
petty though i think any free brand advertising should be welcomed
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Richard, Ionics come on here under sudo names. Don't think it would be anyone else. They don't post just spy ;)
i belive people would e.mail them, they would be ionics users, some genuinely think they are better than people who use other systems, thus if they can get one over on a non-user, they will
sad really
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i have been given until the 9th to remove it. you can judge yourself weather its
a total copy straight from thier web site(which it is not).
or a well designed icon.
any way i think its pretty sad for someone to cause this sort of trouble for a fellow shinner. merry christmas.
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I don't know if you were dobbed in by a genuine user of this site, but there were a couple of genuine posted warnings to you to remove your picture on your thread, but you chose to ignore them. They were very clear and well intentioned.
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it was only last evening!!!! suppose you would have ran straight out and took them off.... thanks for replying though
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Good luck with everything.
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just like to thank everyone that's helped me over the last 15 months.
i now have a very healthy business.
300 monthlies and just breaking into commercial .
i am grateful for all the sound advice you have taken the time to give me.
all the best in the future Dave...suds window cleaning service.
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should we notify bt telecom that ionics have an almost identicle logo as theres,
and if bt was to take them on, they would have no chance, how would they feel.
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yea its rather ironic from ionics ;D
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bt no longer use that logo, though they still own it
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can i use theirs i do carry a phone with me?
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how did ionics get in contact?
because i noticed on the pics of your van there wasnt a full phone number, did they google you?
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(http://www.logorip.com/fusion/getfile.asp?file=assets/images/logo_bt.jpg&fo_comments=0)
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bt no longer use that logo, though they still own it
exactly, bt still own it, and it is bt telecom logo but slightly changed. instead of using a trumpet, they aded a pole looking thing lol. how would they like bt to say sorry ionics you need to remove the logo from every van and product you sell, you have until the 9th :o
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i think bt would have a case....not that it would ever happen, and considering their in different fields. I personaly dont rate the ionics logo anyway
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how did ionics get in contact?
because i noticed on the pics of your van there wasnt a full phone number, did they google you?
some one told them or they were watching and listening...anyway my email is on my profile
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now though you will need a new logo so that "SUDS" doesn't look off centre.
I hate a sign that looks off centre >:( >:( >:(
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If i were you mate I'd just ignor the email (do not reply!) & carry on. NO way can they legally demand anything via email!!!
Carry on & see if they realy can be arsed to make FORMAL contact, or indeed even to take it further.
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if your graphic is not identical or obviously copied from theirs then they have no legal right to ask you to remove it.
if it was me they'd get politely asked to shove it
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tell them to sod off!!!
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Richardson,
Nice looking van, but a bit of a dilemma for you, I believe they have done it before and they do protect their copyrighted logos quite vigorously.
If you do ignore them and they decide to proceed down the legal route and win their case, then you will probably be liable for their costs.
We bought a second hand Thermopure system in a liveried Renault Trafic, it originally had the full wrap photo's on along with the wfp man, took the wrap off but left the logos on as they do look very effective.
Before buying their van I had an artist make up a similar picture to the Ionics man to put on our original WFP van (non ionics), but was advised that their logo was copyrighted and I shouldn't use it.
What's the saying "Imitiation is the greatest form of flattery"!!
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Richard, Ionics come on here under sudo names. Don't think it would be anyone else. They don't post just spy ;)
i belive people would e.mail them, they would be ionics users, some genuinely think they are better than people who use other systems, thus if they can get one over on a non-user, they will
sad really
I believe that does happen too. I know someone who had "reach and wash" on his leaflets (a genuine mistake rather than intentionally trying to infringe any trademarks). Unless an Ionics worker received them through his own letterbox then that was a grass up job. The chap concerned had no prior knowledge that Ionics had bought the rights to use that term.
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Just email them and say you took the idea from the old bt logo. Say you are very sorry and didn't think they would mind as they no longer use it.
Say you just thought it would look good with a pole instead of pipes. Say you are going to contact BT immediatley and see whether they want you to remove it. Thank them kindly for pointing out your error.
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Just email them and say you took the idea from the old bt logo. Say you are very sorry and didn't think they would mind as they no longer use it.
Say you just thought it would look good with a pole instead of pipes. Say you are going to contact BT immediatley and see whether they want you to remove it. Thank them kindly for pointing out your error.
That's a pretty good suggestion IMO.
The only problem being whether the poster is prepared to defend it in court with the attendant financial risk if he loses.
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(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/rickyuk/rwlogo_silver.png)
Right personally if you look at the pic above the image is copyrighted with the man with the pole facing towards the left with the words Reach & wash systems. The van in question which this relates to looks nothing like this at all. I wonder if Bt have contacted Ionics to express the concerns when ionics made there image (I BET NOT). If Ionics emailed me they would have got told where to go. Case of a company who think they can bully who they want.
I might email BT ;D ;D
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iam sure some one on this forum could tweak the bt one to suit a wfp logo...
then pass it on it would really p them off...
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Ionics really are wallys accusing people of copying there logo. What they dont realise is a large amount of window cleaners use this great forum and are going to name a shame them when they get bullied by ionics.
Personally i would never buy ionics
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Richard, Ionics come on here under sudo names. Don't think it would be anyone else. They don't post just spy ;)
DA, I think your spot on mate take a look at this thread http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=66936.0 (ironics system user help) scroll down to Hants windows.
Its someone having problems with this very expensive bit of kit, scroll down and you will see a new member answered very precise to the problems and then deletes his membership, so unless anyone knows any different this person is a Troll for ironics.
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i am gonna photoshop a van witha number and see what happens LOL
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If you kept your mouth shut you`d get away with it for years.
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i am gonna photoshop a van witha number and see what happens LOL
I was thinking EXACTLY the same thing. Wait for the call/e-mail and rudely tell them where to get off.
Back to the original situation, do they know where you live, have they asked you to prove once youve removed the logo that youve done it. Could you not just ignore, I mean an e-mail is an e-mail but its a bit different to a knock on the door.
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I don't know if you were dobbed in by a genuine user of this site, but there were a couple of genuine posted warnings to you to remove your picture on your thread, but you chose to ignore them. They were very clear and well intentioned.
Is this one of the spies??
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received email today from ionics and also spoke to them on the phone,
to be honest at this stage they were friendly enough.
i still think that my icon is different to thiers but don't know where i would stand legally.
i will look into it after the xmas hols and after taking that advice i will act accordingly
ive got no axe to grind with ionics and had not even seen their logo before i was (reported) to them.
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received email today from ionics and also spoke to them on the phone,
to be honest at this stage they were friendly enough.
i still think that my icon is different to thiers but don't know where i would stand legally.
i will look into it after the xmas hols and after taking that advice i will act accordingly
ive got no axe to grind with ionics and had not even seen their logo before i was (reported) to them.
What post was your picture on? do you have a link
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new sign written van page two.......please feel free to let me know what you think
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received email today from ionics and also spoke to them on the phone,
to be honest at this stage they were friendly enough.
i still think that my icon is different to thiers but don't know where i would stand legally.
i will look into it after the xmas hols and after taking that advice i will act accordingly
ive got no axe to grind with ionics and had not even seen their logo before i was (reported) to them.
The sad thing is mate someone on here obviously aint that busy with nothing better to do has took the time to phone them. what a jockey whoever the sad twat is
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new sign written van page two.......please feel free to let me know what you think
Dave, it does look the same ironics Logo (carpet cleaner/hoover lol) its just facing the other way.
Mind they don't make an example of you with all the bad press they get.
I have 2 mates who have/had ironic systems and they have both had problems with them, one took his out, and the other one also had bad after sales, this aloan was enough to put me off buying a system off them, and why would 2 good mates lie to me?? the one who ripped his system out, still uses there logo but he does admit it never pulls any extra work in all because of a logo.
Bin it and save yourself the hassle get a better logo, one guy on here has a Duck and another has a jelly fish, now this type of logo would get your van better noticed than blob of water with a carpet cleaner as a logo.
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they have also told brodex to change the wording on there web site the (reach and wash bit) they have also until the 9th of jan.
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I don't think Brodex will be to bothered by them and if they feel there breaking any copyright then I expect they will remove it.
Lets hope ironcs don't trademark the words window cleaner or were all doomed ::)
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Lets hope ironcs don't trademark the words window cleaner or were all doomed ::)
thats it, 1 of the ironics users will be onto craig now, the e.mail will go like this
Dear My lord.
would it be possible for you to trademark tern " window cleaner "
this will enable me to rule the world just as you said i would
thanks
I M Asaddo
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A perfect illustration of branding. Ionics spend a fortune advertising that their system is the best, very difficult to convince us when they build their systems from readily available parts.
I have made the comparison with Rolex before, and I do it again, A Rolex is not a better time piece, my Casio digital keeps better time than my sons Rolex Oyster, and that's a fact. The success of Rolex was proportionate to their glossy mags advertisements, people fall for these advertisements hook line and sinker, if you can afford the advertising, you can persuade enough people that they are buying a status symbol, and that my friends is exactly what Ionics are attempting to do.
Some window cleaners that have paid well over the odds for their systems resent their own gullibility, when they realise that someone with a system costing half as much is doing just as good a job.
Of course Ionics are expensive, the cost of their advertising is built into the price.
My son recently sold his Rolex, why? Because there are so many fakes coming in from the far east nobody believed his was real. No status in wearing £3000 on your wrist when they think it's a fake.
This is what Ionics fear most, they are afraid [and so they should be] that window cleaners won't buy their systems if every Tom Dick And Harry can have their logo on the side of their van.
Ionics are trying to convince us that they are the market leaders, and that their logo is the key to business success.
I would have a picture taken of myself using the pole, and have a large silhouette made from it to put on my van, then they could go and whistle Dixie.
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Lets hope ironcs don't trademark the words window cleaner or were all doomed ::)
thats it, 1 of the ironics users will be onto craig now, the e.mail will go like this
Dear My lord.
would it be possible for you to trademark tern " window cleaner "
this will enable me to rule the world just as you said i would
thanks
I M Asaddo
lol true
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dai/
A perfect illustration of branding. Ionics spend a fortune advertising that their system is the best, very difficult to convince us when they build their systems from readily available parts.
I have made the comparison with Rolex before, and I do it again, A Rolex is not a better time piece, my Casio digital keeps better time than my sons Rolex Oyster, and that's a fact. The success of Rolex was proportionate to their glossy mags advertisements, people fall for these advertisements hook line and sinker, if you can afford the advertising, you can persuade enough people that they are buying a status symbol, and that my friends is exactly what Ionics are attempting to do.
Some window cleaners that have paid well over the odds for their systems resent their own gullibility, when they realise that someone with a system costing half as much is doing just as good a job.
Of course Ionics are expensive, the cost of their advertising is built into the price.
My son recently sold his Rolex, why? Because there are so many fakes coming in from the far east nobody believed his was real. No status in wearing £3000 on your wrist when they think it's a fake.
This is what Ionics fear most, they are afraid [and so they should be] that window cleaners won't buy their systems if every Tom Dick And Harry can have their logo on the side of their van.
Ionics are trying to convince us that they are the market leaders, and that their logo is the key to business success.
I would have a picture taken of myself using the pole, and have a large silhouette made from it to put on my van, then they could go and whistle Dixie.
true / true
jerry
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Some window cleaners that have paid well over the odds for their systems resent their own gullibility, when they realise that someone with a system costing half as much is doing just as good a job.
And that my friend I believe is one of the reasons for so much ill-feeling on this forum.
One day those that have spent SO much on a system wake up to the fact that theyve been as gullible as hell and cant stand the thought that others out there are making more than them for far less outlay.
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A perfect illustration of branding. Ionics spend a fortune advertising that their system is the best, very difficult to convince us when they build their systems from readily available parts.
I have made the comparison with Rolex before, and I do it again, A Rolex is not a better time piece, my Casio digital keeps better time than my sons Rolex Oyster, and that's a fact. The success of Rolex was proportionate to their glossy mags advertisements, people fall for these advertisements hook line and sinker, if you can afford the advertising, you can persuade enough people that they are buying a status symbol, and that my friends is exactly what Ionics are attempting to do.
Some window cleaners that have paid well over the odds for their systems resent their own gullibility, when they realise that someone with a system costing half as much is doing just as good a job.
Of course Ionics are expensive, the cost of their advertising is built into the price.
My son recently sold his Rolex, why? Because there are so many fakes coming in from the far east nobody believed his was real. No status in wearing £3000 on your wrist when they think it's a fake.
This is what Ionics fear most, they are afraid [and so they should be] that window cleaners won't buy their systems if every Tom Dick And Harry can have their logo on the side of their van.
Ionics are trying to convince us that they are the market leaders, and that their logo is the key to business success.
I would have a picture taken of myself using the pole, and have a large silhouette made from it to put on my van, then they could go and whistle Dixie.
So true dai
Maybe like Rolex, ironics will now put a serial nimber on each of there systems so you can tell the difference from a ironic one and a DIY one. ;D
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YWCS
yes why not
jerry
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perfect, but they would probibly take you to court on the acount of the 3 drips in the pic ;D
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It looks like something out of jason and the argonauts.
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YWCS
it looks the same but is different
but different is not the same
jerry
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perfect, but they would probibly take you to court on the acount of the 3 drips in the pic ;D
4 drips if you count the one holding the pole!
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I was thinking of using this on my van, do you think it would be ok?
;D ;D ;D ;D
I think its a good thing to get the kids involved in the design, but just becareful about employing preschoolers
;D :P ;D :P
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perfect, but they would probibly take you to court on the acount of the 3 drips in the pic ;D
4 drips if you count the one holding the pole!
You refering to me there malc? >:(
No, just the logo! Don't be so touchy YMCA! YWCS ;D
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I was thinking of using this on my van, do you think it would be ok?
;D ;D ;D ;D
I think its a good thing to get the kids involved in the design, but just becareful about employing preschoolers
;D :P ;D :P
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=66961.0;id=12024)
Hmmmm.....
what you trying to say, it's a variation on the ancient Scottish greeting of YA BOO ::)
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AAAAAAANNNNNNDDDDD
don't use my logo, or I will go ionics on you, and I will send you a VERY sternly worded email.
so be warned :P
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A perfect illustration of branding. Ionics spend a fortune advertising that their system is the best, very difficult to convince us when they build their systems from readily available parts.
I have made the comparison with Rolex before, and I do it again, A Rolex is not a better time piece, my Casio digital keeps better time than my sons Rolex Oyster, and that's a fact. The success of Rolex was proportionate to their glossy mags advertisements, people fall for these advertisements hook line and sinker, if you can afford the advertising, you can persuade enough people that they are buying a status symbol, and that my friends is exactly what Ionics are attempting to do.
Some window cleaners that have paid well over the odds for their systems resent their own gullibility, when they realise that someone with a system costing half as much is doing just as good a job.
Of course Ionics are expensive, the cost of their advertising is built into the price.
My son recently sold his Rolex, why? Because there are so many fakes coming in from the far east nobody believed his was real. No status in wearing £3000 on your wrist when they think it's a fake.
This is what Ionics fear most, they are afraid [and so they should be] that window cleaners won't buy their systems if every Tom Dick And Harry can have their logo on the side of their van.
Ionics are trying to convince us that they are the market leaders, and that their logo is the key to business success.
I would have a picture taken of myself using the pole, and have a large silhouette made from it to put on my van, then they could go and whistle Dixie.
bang on, just about sums it up
BUT
i await the abuse you i will get for the post agreeing with your post ;D ;D
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A perfect illustration of branding. Ionics spend a fortune advertising that their system is the best, very difficult to convince us when they build their systems from readily available parts.
I have made the comparison with Rolex before, and I do it again, A Rolex is not a better time piece, my Casio digital keeps better time than my sons Rolex Oyster, and that's a fact. The success of Rolex was proportionate to their glossy mags advertisements, people fall for these advertisements hook line and sinker, if you can afford the advertising, you can persuade enough people that they are buying a status symbol, and that my friends is exactly what Ionics are attempting to do.
Some window cleaners that have paid well over the odds for their systems resent their own gullibility, when they realise that someone with a system costing half as much is doing just as good a job.
Of course Ionics are expensive, the cost of their advertising is built into the price.
My son recently sold his Rolex, why? Because there are so many fakes coming in from the far east nobody believed his was real. No status in wearing £3000 on your wrist when they think it's a fake.
This is what Ionics fear most, they are afraid [and so they should be] that window cleaners won't buy their systems if every Tom Dick And Harry can have their logo on the side of their van.
Ionics are trying to convince us that they are the market leaders, and that their logo is the key to business success.
I would have a picture taken of myself using the pole, and have a large silhouette made from it to put on my van, then they could go and whistle Dixie.
Talking of watches a fake Rolex cannot be compared to a genuine 1,there are subtle differences only someone that owns 1 would know.The best fake Rolex i`ve seen was from the far east but even then you could tell,if anyone was trying to impress the local chavs they`d get away with it but not the trained eye they wouldn`t.
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this is mines keep your hands of it ;D
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x75/trainingacademy/oie_oie_overlay-3.gif)
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What programme did you make that in Jouk?
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this one matt, takes a little getting use to, but it does mostly everything
www.online-image-editor.com
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I predict Ionics will be the 'woolworths' of the window cleaning world in 2009
bet the credit crunch is hitting them if they are moaning ;D
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I predict Ionics will be the 'woolworths' of the window cleaning world in 2009
bet the credit crunch is hitting them if they are moaning ;D
In actual fact they probably stand to do fairly well. Lots of people get made redundant and start to do a bit of window cleaning. What wfp system will they spend there redundancy money on, the one that is the most advertised to be honest. It's only on brill places like here you get to see how to save a tonne of money and learn about cheaper better suppliers.
Simon.
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the thing with ionics is that they mean nothing to people in the real world. as long as the side of your van says window cleaner and you charge a fair price then no one really cares behond that.
I know when i started i was given a couple of forum sites and I've taken it from there.
ionics, brodex, DIY system, whoever else. in this time all that matters is that you can keep low margins, and happy customers. that goes for the suppliers as well as the window cleaner.
this thread started because ionics want to protect their logo, if you ask anyone in the street they would say nice logo, but they could not tell you what company was being ripped off.
the best way to protect their logo is to make people want their product.
I think they dropped the ball with this one ( or perhaps it's more" it's my ball and I'm going home" ::) )
I wonder if they are thinking all publicity is good publicity.
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the best way to protect their logo is to make people want their product.
Well said,... they're failing miserably on this count at the moment.
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I predict Ionics will be the 'woolworths' of the window cleaning world in 2009
bet the credit crunch is hitting them if they are moaning ;D
Too right! one of the owners companies already going under, a big pulling in of the reins
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Sherwood, is that a metric tonne of money or an imperial ton?
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I predict Ionics will be the 'woolworths' of the window cleaning world in 2009
bet the credit crunch is hitting them if they are moaning ;D
Too right! one of the owners companies already going under, a big pulling in of the reins
I said this in another post about 4 weeks ago. Ive got a feeling they wont be around the watefed market will become come so competitive next year and ionics wont wanna drop there prices to the level of other makers
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I predict Ionics will be the 'woolworths' of the window cleaning world in 2009
bet the credit crunch is hitting them if they are moaning ;D
Too right! one of the owners companies already going under, a big pulling in of the reins
I said this in another post about 4 weeks ago. Ive got a feeling they wont be around the watefed market will become come so competitive next year and ionics wont wanna drop there prices to the level of other makers
Pitching the price highish and marketing on quality are valid selling tactics. So far, the market has been able to bear that. I have reservations as to whether the market in the next few years will be able to though. If price becomes a bigger issue for a greater number of W/Cs then dropping price and (possibly) reducing margins becomes essential (not just for Ionics either). The alternative is to risk going out of business. Everyone is subject to that basic economic fact. Maybe smaller W/C businesses can duck and dive around that for longer than most businesses because, for the most part, we are not selling a big ticket item, and also because we have the flexibility to increase working hours to maintain income if push really came to shove. I know I would be trying to reduce my equipment costs before increasing my working week too much. At the moment, I am only buying equipment if it's essential or if I think it's a good deal (e.g. bought a nearly new SL-X pole a while back for about £100 or so less than new price). Basically I probably have all the tools I need for a couple of years at least. Just the odd pre-filters, maybe a lightweight brush or three, perhaps one or two 100 metre minibores, and a bag of resin are likely to be my only outlays for a couple of years. Of course a spare pump for the van mount might be a good idea too and maybe the Merlin membranes will give up the ghost in that time but hopefully I can muddle along without spending too much.
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I predict Ionics will be the 'woolworths' of the window cleaning world in 2009
bet the credit crunch is hitting them if they are moaning ;D
Too right! one of the owners companies already going under, a big pulling in of the reins
I said this in another post about 4 weeks ago. Ive got a feeling they wont be around the watefed market will become come so competitive next year and ionics wont wanna drop there prices to the level of other makers
Pitching the price highish and marketing on quality are valid selling tactics. So far, the market has been able to bear that. I have reservations as to whether the market in the next few years will be able to though. If price becomes a bigger issue for a greater number of W/Cs then dropping price and (possibly) reducing margins becomes essential (not just for Ionics either). The alternative is to risk going out of business. Everyone is subject to that basic economic fact. Maybe smaller W/C businesses can duck and dive around that for longer than most businesses because, for the most part, we are not selling a big ticket item, and also because we have the flexibility to increase working hours to maintain income if push really came to shove. I know I would be trying to reduce my equipment costs before increasing my working week too much. At the moment, I am only buying equipment if it's essential or if I think it's a good deal (e.g. bought a nearly new SL-X pole a while back for about £100 or so less than new price). Basically I probably have all the tools I need for a couple of years at least. Just the odd pre-filters, maybe a lightweight brush or three, perhaps one or two 100 metre minibores, and a bag of resin are likely to be my only outlays for a couple of years. Of course a spare pump for the van mount might be a good idea too and maybe the Merlin membranes will give up the ghost in that time but hopefully I can muddle along without spending too much.
Purely speculation on my part -
I feel their business model has a lot to do with with financing. Are they the only manufacturer who offers a 'financing package' for equipment/vehicles?
Most firms legitatmily recive a commission each time they sign somebody up to a finance agreement for products. So not only do they make money on the sale, they aslo make on the commssion of the finance.
Selling items via finance has been as easy as falling off a log....until earlier this year! when all funding stopped dead in its tracks.
I read in a magazine they have recently introduced a package involving second hand vehicles as an alternative to the brand new vans. Is this maybe a sign that people were finding it tough to get financing on the new vehicles (and the higher prices) ?
If they can survive on 'cash buyers' then they'll be fine.
If their market relies on people without cash (who signed up to finance packages) then its going to be an interesting year!
If customers have 'cash' in their pockets is it likely they'll research other suppliers just a little bit more before deciding on a purchase?