Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: williamx on December 20, 2008, 07:21:10 pm
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It doesn't matter what you think about the one they have in Scotland, only vote if you would like some form of licence or are you dead against anyone telling you what you can do for a living.
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It doesn't matter what you think about the one they have in Scotland, only vote if you would like some form of licence or are you dead against anyone telling you what you can do for a living.
no one tells you what to do for a living, having a license does have an impact on those who we call the beer brigade, it certainly is working in my town, i am not even canvassing now, as i am getting loads of calls from custys saying there w/c have never come back, not even to pick up there money, ::) wonder why, i know of at least 5 of them, doug has done a lot of hard work for us, and it is definitly paying of big time, you have to remember this takes time, especialy in the bigger citys to weed all the beer brigade out, for every 10 w/c cought, 40 others will know about it, and the gap gets bigger and bigger, 8) i am loving it,
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Hi
I have voted yes but do not think it would ever be policed or enforced and if that was the case it would just be an extra tax, for that it's a no vote
Tony
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licensing means nothing if the public are not aware of the reasons and implications for them of using a window cleaner that has a license, or the licence is not back up with proper policing by whatever authority.
Its taken Scotland 10 years to actually start making the effort into policing it
I see good reasons why we should be licensed, but no good reasons to actually suggest it will work or be a good idea to implement.
But its another tax we have to foot, or "pass on" to the customers.
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but it is being policed tony, the license for w/c in scotland has been here for years, but was not properly run by the councils, and therfore everything was left to run down, but they still took the cash, this is where doug came in and booted there backsides, also using the law, doug had forced them to carry out there dutys, it is working no doubts about it,
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Jouk
Fair play to Doug but as you say for years before that it was not.
I agree with the fact the customers should know the benefits of a licensed window cleaner and that would help. However I still think it would just be a paper exercise.
Tony
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thing is tony, no one was there to keep them in check, now doug and his team are on the ball to make sure it keeps going, to never to let it slip again,
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I have worked out that I will need 8 licences because I work in 8 different council areas, so for me to carry on trading as I am, it will mean I have to spend approx £1600 plus all the other extras that the councils might think it nessasary for me to trade.
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Hi Jouk.
Will not dissagree but when I think of the councills throughout England and Wales they would need a lot of teams to police it and ok the fee would go some way into paying their salaries, but I still think it would be a big drain on their resorces for very little gain. Lets assume the caught someone who was not licenced, the chances are they may be on the dole with limited income to pay the fine.
Again I'm not against it and would like it to work.
Tony
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Every council in the UK has a department to enforce Heath and Safety, yet i still only have to drive down the street every day to see some workman breaking it.
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As someone on another post pointed out: the dole cheats etc are not too bothered about going to prison for fraud so why would they be worried about a small fine for not having a licence, They wouldn't pay the fine either.
It would be just another Tax . I also work in two metropolitan Councils and one County Council area so I would need 3 licences, what a pain.
The only beneficaries would be the councils.
You better not smoke though when you do the insides, because that would be a serious matter
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Every council in the UK has a department to enforce Heath and Safety, yet i still only have to drive down the street every day to see some workman breaking it.
My point entirely.
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Every council in the UK has a department to enforce Heath and Safety, yet i still only have to drive down the street every day to see some workman breaking it.
My point entirely.
Quite agree
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The main reason that everyone wants a licence is to stop the "benefit cheat".
If they are being over-run with window cleaners who are on benefits, what you need is not a licence, you need the benefit fraud team to act, if they are not responding to your request that so and so is on benefit and working then go to their bosses in goverment.
Every town and city in the UK has a benefit fraud team, whats to stop them from leaving their cosy offices and asking every window cleaner they see for Id and National Insurance number, cross-check with computer and computer says "your Nicked" or thank you and have a nice day.
Whille they are about looking for these illegal window cleaners, they could also stop the painters and decorators the next door neighbour who fixes all these cars the guys who drop leaflets though your door etc etc
Or do we need licence schemes for every trade there is.
If on the other hand you want to look after the welfare of window cleaners, then what about proper training, proper health and safety awareness and yearly refresher courses.
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I have worked out that I will need 8 licences because I work in 8 different council areas, so for me to carry on trading as I am, it will mean I have to spend approx £1600 plus all the other extras that the councils might think it nessasary for me to trade.
i do agree with you the bit about having to obtain a license for every area, i do believe we should pay for one license, and be free to go and work anywhere, if the license scheme was to be brought in to england, then this could be one thing that would be brought up as part of the licensing plan, as you will be starting from new, unless they work on the same structure as scotlands licensing laws,
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If on the other hand you want to look after the welfare of window cleaners, then what about proper training, proper health and safety awareness and yearly refresher courses.
So after years in this profession are you suggesting I should attend these courses on a yearly basis. I don't need anyone to teach me what I already know.
Secondly do you think the dole cheats etc would attend these courses whilst still working on the side?
It would take years to finally bring in but I'm all for licensing. Afterall what other 'Cash' based professions get the freedom to just enter properties at will?
Sometimes people have to be forced into things. How many on here under their own steam have joined FWC, SafeContractor, APWC, Safety Aware Contractor etc etc? Hardly any compared to the number of window cleaners in the country.
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As someone on another post pointed out: the dole cheats etc are not too bothered about going to prison for fraud so why would they be worried about a small fine for not having a licence, They wouldn't pay the fine either.
that was me
i would love a license, but to be honest, the police would not be able to enforce it, they DO NOT have the manpower to cope now, they are beyond breaking point
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If on the other hand you want to look after the welfare of window cleaners, then what about proper training, proper health and safety awareness and yearly refresher courses.
So after years in this profession are you suggesting I should attend these courses on a yearly basis. I don't need anyone to teach me what I already know.
Secondly do you think the dole cheats etc would attend these courses whilst still working on the side?
It would take years to finally bring in but I'm all for licensing. Afterall what other 'Cash' based professions get the freedom to just enter properties at will?
Sometimes people have to be forced into things. How many on here under their own steam have joined FWC, SafeContractor, APWC, Safety Aware Contractor etc etc? Hardly any compared to the number of window cleaners in the country.
You may not need to learn anything but can you say that you have never ever seen another cleaner who could learn something.
We already have laws and resoures that are supposed to tackle benefit fraudsters, why don't we start to use them more effectively, instead of having copycat regulations.
Even though there are benefit fraudsters cleaning windows, all of them are not robbing their customers, whereas every legal trade has bad apples, how many bar staff, fiddle the till, yet they all pay tax.
You want a licence scheme, why? and what will it do, that is not already cover by exsiting laws and regulations.
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If on the other hand you want to look after the welfare of window cleaners, then what about proper training, proper health and safety awareness and yearly refresher courses.
How many on here under their own steam have joined FWC, SafeContractor, APWC, Safety Aware Contractor etc etc? Hardly any compared to the number of window cleaners in the country.
We join those as it help boost our professional image. Its how you get commercial contracts as they are looking for H&S orientated companies to use as they are in the poo if anything happens.
These do nothing for the regular domestic housewife in essence in relation to find a window cleaner.
I thought the new FWC magazine article about Caden's Window Cleaning Specialists was something to laugh at.
I quote from the magazine
Neil Caden proprietor says - Long gone are the days when you would see a window cleaner in cut off shorts with a rag hanging out of his back pocket... Thankfully the business has gained a more professional image and with this comes a need to prove that they are H&S compliant.
What a load of tosh.. you see these types of window cleaners all the time, carrying a B&Q ladder on top of the family car with a bucket stuck in the rungs and a rag tied to the back to boot. H&S legislation really only relates to commercial window cleaners and those that employ.
Licensing, and H&S in essence does nothing for the lower domestic side of things, where cheapness prevails - and the beer boys know that!
license or not they will still be around.
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Guys,
Think you're missing the point here, don't look at the negative start here in England. You can create the license to suit your Industry not the Council dictate it to you. To many organisations loose out by not looking at the Councils standards of service.
They have to give you a service so in turn if you had a powerfull organisatio behind you that knows the laws back to front you are onto a winner. It has taken some time for my to figure out the legal system in Scotland and to my benefit the Councils do not know it. So hence why we are starting to win.
So in summary to have licensing in England you need a very strong organisation that will represent your trade. They along with you decide the standards of service. The Council are then measured on performance, there is an added twist but will not go into it as there are vultures in this trade that will see it as a money making adventure for them when it shoud not be. It should be designed to help you guys make money and keep the illegal people out.
My advise if loads of you got together and got support accross the country with what you want from the license then you can petition parliament for a law to be passed. There is a way but make sure you are in control. There is a way where your subject can be discussed in Parliament you can find it in the government website. We have it hear it Scotland so I'm sure you will have it in England.
You will be designing something from scratch so design it correctly then try and get it passed through Parliament.
Hope this makes sense.
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Seeing as the FWC is the largest assignation to do with window cleaning, what is their take on the possibility of licensing?
It would need an organisation as large as this to get clout behind any perspective license to lobby parliament. In essence its what they (the FWC) are there for - to represent window cleaners.
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In essence its what they (the FWC) are there for - to represent window cleaners.
Technically...no their not.
They are there to represent their members not those of us who don't pay into it.....which at a wild guess would be a huge majority of window cleaners.
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Guys,
It should be designed to help you guys make money and keep the illegal people out.
The goverment still can't stop illegal immigrants working in their own offices and departments, what the likelyhood that a piece of paper and id card will do it.
In Birmingham there has been a Private Hire Licence scheme for over 35 years yet every day and night hundreds if not thousands of people kept getting picked up by illegal drivers, and a lot of these drivers do it in front of the police, who don't care because it clears the streets of boozed up revellers, if this is happening in just 1 city, imagine how many are breaking the law in the rest of the country.
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Pure HYDRO Cleaners, im getting a feeling you dont think it will work ;)
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im sure most of us ar for it , but at the end of the day IF they ar caught its a slap on the wrist .a laugh down the pub . n back out on windows nxt day .but u have my vote
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100% agree with you, I don't have the answer but I'm sure there is one. But it would not come from the Government or Councils Officials as they are in glass houses and don't see the real world.
I'm sure if the Taxi's were part of the licensing structure they would be able to improve their trade as they are the ones that know how it runs. Anyone caught operating illegally I would propose their vehicle is seized. You can chip and pin number plates, scanned vehicles operating with out them vehicle seized. The situation can be resolved not 100% but at least making it very hard for the illegal person to operate.
On the licensing committee which governs Taxi's etc are the Councillors which you vote for. They have the power to make changes. There is a code of conduct for Councillors, I would use this as ammunition. We have already called for the removal of a Councillor from a Committtee. You need a Committee that will represent the Industry on the Committee, maybe that is what the Taxi drivers need to do is have the Committee in Birmingham removed.
These are my thoughts which can be done.
In Scotland the Committee are acountable and no one has ever challenged that. There are ways of removing them but that is the last option. And I would be confident if the taxi drivers took the Council to court they could seek compensation. The key is "standards of service".
If they fail that you can sue them ;)
You may wonder why I'm confident in this. To cut a long story short if you live in a Council flat you pay service charges. I took the Council to Court and won substantial damages. By studying the law and the standards of service they offered which they failed, so I had the right to sue.
This is the same way I am handling the Councils in Scotland. Hope you understand what I am trying to put accross. Sometimes what I'm trying to say doesn't come out right.
Cheers
Doug
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Pure HYDRO Cleaners, im getting a feeling you dont think it will work ;)
I am for a licence scheme if its for the benefit of window cleaners and the general public, I believe that the health and well being of window cleaners is paramont, chasing benefit fraudsters about is not what a licence scheme should be about.
We already pay the goverment a lot of money to chase these fraudsters, why should Window Cleaners have to pay an extra tax.
The goverment already have in mind that every citizen should have a national identity card, this card will have the capability to be uploaded with all the benefits you might be in reciept of and whether you are working or not, why do we need 2.
If there is to be a licence, then every window cleaning in the country should be polled on what they consider is a fair way for it to work, the tax man should have details on every legal cleaner.
Remember it is very easy to make new laws, but it is very very hard to remove ones that don't work, especially if the goverment are making money from it.
If you want to regulate the window cleaning industry, why not make it a requirement that every cleaner must under go some form of training, without this you cannot be a window cleaner, and its also illegal for anyone (mainly customers who turn a blind eye) to employ them.
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I wonder how many people on this forum fall into the "beer money" window cleaner sect? Probably a good few!
I think there should be some form of licence to show the public who is registered, similar to CORGI for gas. However there are still thousands of plumbers out there working on gas systems who are not CORGI registered.
Why are the public still using them? Because they are often cheaper than the registered plumbers and are available.
The same would happen for window cleaners, the majority of people would not get rid of their window cleaner because he wasn't licenced. especially if it meant that to get a licenced cleaner was going to cost them twice as much as before.
We clean windows in a village and are nearly three times the price of another local "beer money" window cleaner. I know we do a better job than him and are more reliable as several of his customers have come across to us saying they are not happy with him. However many others have stayed with him because of the price difference of coming across to us, we are charging £10 against his £3.00.
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Seeing as the FWC is the largest assignation to do with window cleaning, what is their take on the possibility of licensing?
It would need an organisation as large as this to get clout behind any perspective license to lobby parliament. In essence its what they (the FWC) are there for - to represent window cleaners.
I'm not generally in favour of licensing but could be persuaded ONLY if there were certain safeguards. I feel that the safeguards I would want would be unlikely to ever be implemented. However, with government's increasing need to control and the possibility of recession turning into depression, licensing may become inevitable - especially when you bear in mind that Scotland has sometimes been used as a testing ground for UK wide legislation on other matters.
Something that has never been suggested is the free licence. I pay my share of taxation so why not? <tongue-in-cheek mode> They can do it for cars that are over 25 so why not W/Cs that are over 25 </tongue-in-cheek mode> .
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What happens in the event that you're an established w/c with a good customer base (many of which you've done for years) and you declare your earnings and pay your tax...in other words you're totally legit!
Then one fine and sunny day licencing comes to England....you being legit naturally apply....and for whatever reason you're refused! :o...perhaps because only a certain number of licences are issued in a given area?
Does one then just hang up ones ladders for the last time (and not put food on the table)? Or carry on with ones livelyhood secure in the knowledge that "policing" window cleaners is not remotely cost effective for either the incumbent council or the police and thus could never be realistically enforced?
I know what I'll do!!!
Furthermore what gives you pro-licence people the right to make sweeping generalisations that every w/c with a set of B&Q ladders on the roof of the family car and a rag hanging out of his back pocket is a "cowboy"?
Fair enough if you see one of them coming out of the benefits office clutching his giro...yeah then grass him up big-time. But away from that give people the benefit of the doubt and carry on with your business happy in the knowledge that you're sooo good that the cowboys can't impact you anyway.
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I would love there to be some kind of licence but like a few on here don't really think it would stop the cowboys. Besides it would take 100's of man hours just to enforce it.
One way of stopping some of the cowboys would be to firstly try and get a story published in your local paper highlighting the amount of cowboy tradesmen including wcs in your area. To ask would be custies to always ask for id and insurance details and possibly proof that they are paying their stamp. I'm sure that if someone is not legit then they won't be able to produce the latter.
I always put on my flyers/leaflets/adverts that I'm fully insured. I also point out in my brochure the importance of not employing tradesmen/wcs that aren't insured.
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There are a lot of tv and radio programmes about that target the "Cowboys and Benefit Cheats", I have yet to see one were the "star" is a Window Cleaner.
All the other trades which also have "cowboys and benefits cheats" DO NOT have a licence scheme, and no one in them industries are shouting for one.
Why are some window cleaners crying out for a licence, is it possible that they want to general public to look at them in a different light, do they want to be seen as a legitimate trade, like the "plumbers and electricians" instead of "your just a window cleaner and anyone can do that".
Well we are a legitimate trade, and yes anyone can do it, but only those with the experence and skill can do it right.
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It won’t stop all cowboy window cleaner, but it should reduce them.
And the customers will get to know there is a definite difference between the two types of window cleaner.
Having a police force doesn’t stop crime happening.
I'm secure enough in my round/customers that a few (supposedly) cowboys don't fuss me...hopefully the same applies to you Sir!
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It won’t stop all cowboy window cleaner, but it should reduce them.
And the customers will get to know there is a definite difference between the two types of window cleaner.
Having a police force doesn’t stop crime happening.
I'm secure enough in my round/customers that a few (supposedly) cowboys don't fuss me...hopefully the same applies to you Sir!
Good for you, but that is a bit selfish
No not at all selfish! I'm perfectly happy with competition as long as the playing field is level. What the pro-licence people are doing is wanting to starve out the newcomers with red tape as they may become a threat. But this is counter-productive to there businesses:
The unlicenced people are at an advantage to the licenced! Because:
1. Not having to justify, form fill and pay for their licence(s) they can undercut freely.
2. And away from form filling/justifing have time to do it.
3. By default send hitherto legit w/c's into the black economy, saving them 30% tax and allow them even more undercutting scope.
4. Still blag their Giro (which impacts all (us) tax payers).
Licences play into the hands of the "Cowboys"!!!
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Are you a cowboy?
Wanna see my tax bill? :(
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Ewan, to me it's like this:
If you're Waitrose you're always gonna be undercut by the Asda's of this world.
If you're a Waitrose kind of shopper (because you like their attention to detail) that's where you will shop and gladly pay the 30% premium to Asda.
However; if suddenly HM Gov says that Waitrose have to pay £50k per branch in tax and the store passes this onto it's customers and suddenly the difference is 40%...well then suddenly Asda looks much more attractive.
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If you want a level playing field, don’t pay tax and all the other expenses associated with being a window cleaner.
Is that what you do?
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Yes, it is, but he offsets his tax bill against his higher child-care costs nowadays ;D
Anyway Ewan what happened to you answering my 2 questions in other posts about what works vehicle you drive?
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Youre so reluctant to let us see your setup arent you Ewan, anyway where did you dream up this DIY stuff about me Ewan, youre obviously confused.
So Ewan, for the fourth time of asking what do you use as a works vehicle?
I drive a Vauxhall Combo, its not DIY, can you DIY a car?? I wasnt aware of that.
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Ewan, to me it's like this:
If you're Waitrose you're always gonna be undercut by the Asda's of this world.
If you're a Waitrose kind of shopper (because you like their attention to detail) that's where you will shop and gladly pay the 30% premium to Asda.
However; if suddenly HM Gov says that Waitrose have to pay £50k per branch in tax and the store passes this onto it's customers and suddenly the difference is 40%...well then suddenly Asda looks much more attractive.
You forgot about M&S. ::)
If that’s your understanding fine, But until your put up a good reason I will stick with the view a licence even for only a few years will be a good thing.
Er...I thought I had...several in fact... I'm more than happy to debate them and am big enough to be shown the faults in my reasoning at which point I'll say "Yes, you're right and I'm wrong."
Either way mon ami I'm not seriously fussed.