Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: cherubs cleaning on December 11, 2008, 07:23:05 pm
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got email yesterday
got post card today
times must be hard
jerry
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yeap £1000 cash back card dropped through the door still not enough to make me part with that sort of wedge.
Hope you busy Jerry
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"Cash Back" on a system you are buying? ;D
Now thats a very interesting way of describing a LOAN.
Cash Back - infers you agree to take out a loan (or hire purchase arrangment) and that Ionics 'give you' £1,000 back from that loan.
BUT - you'ver still got to make payments and INTEREST on that loan (and that £1,000 they 'gave' you)
Why not just drop the price by a grand?
....maybe somebody is making money off the finance charges well?
NOT really as 'cash back' as it first appears is it?
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hi ricky
busy but not ionic busy
:o :o
jerry
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"Cash Back" on a system you are buying? ;D
Now thats a very interesting way of describing a LOAN.
Cash Back - infers you agree to take out a loan (or hire purchase arrangment) and that Ionics 'give you' £1,000 back from that loan.
BUT - you'ver still got to make payments and INTEREST on that loan (and that £1,000 they 'gave' you)
Why not just drop the price by a grand?
....maybe somebody is making money off the finance charges well?
NOT really as 'cash back' as it first appears is it?
watch it, the ironics lot will be onto you if you even mention anything bad about ironics
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"Cash Back" on a system you are buying? ;D
Now thats a very interesting way of describing a LOAN.
Cash Back - infers you agree to take out a loan (or hire purchase arrangment) and that Ionics 'give you' £1,000 back from that loan.
BUT - you'ver still got to make payments and INTEREST on that loan (and that £1,000 they 'gave' you)
Why not just drop the price by a grand?
....maybe somebody is making money off the finance charges well?
NOT really as 'cash back' as it first appears is it?
watch it, the ironics lot will be onto you if you even mention anything bad about ironics
Indeed.
I would argue:
This would technically breach the terms of the Hire Purchase Agreement - in as much as you are receiving a benefit from the finance which was not written into the original agreement.
I think you may have heard of such practices on 'new build' flats and houses where the developer was offering 'cash back'....by OVER INFLATING the price of the property.
Such practices have been deemed unlawful and possibly fraudulent by the courts.
All in my humble opinion and posted for discussion purposes only ;)
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David Slater
i agree
but dont worry about the ionic boys they dont come on here any more 8)
jerry
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Binned my leaflet
I've seen the way they reply to threads and members, so my money will go somewhere else in the new year.
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hi ricky
busy but not ionic busy
:o :o
jerry
Lol as much as there systems are the dogs a 650 thermo system at 10k is mad. it companys like them who will struggle in coming years as i feoel wfp market is going to get very competitive over the next 12 months
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hi ricky
busy but not ionic busy
jerry
the money your on ricky i wood of thought you wood have bought 3
jerry
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hi ricky
busy but not ionic busy
jerry
the money your on ricky i wood of thought you wood have bought 3
jerry
Jerry where you hear that you been talking to site managers at Taylor wimpey or something ;D ;D
Listen i never talk pound notes but lets say things are ok, could be worse but could always be better.
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news travel fast on wfp
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
jerry
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must be something in the water :D
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we monsier
jerry
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"Cash Back" on a system you are buying? ;D
Now thats a very interesting way of describing a LOAN.
Cash Back - infers you agree to take out a loan (or hire purchase arrangment) and that Ionics 'give you' £1,000 back from that loan.
BUT - you'ver still got to make payments and INTEREST on that loan (and that £1,000 they 'gave' you)
Why not just drop the price by a grand?
....maybe somebody is making money off the finance charges well?
NOT really as 'cash back' as it first appears is it?
watch it, the ironics lot will be onto you if you even mention anything bad about ironics
Indeed.
I would argue:
This would technically breach the terms of the Hire Purchase Agreement - in as much as you are receiving a benefit from the finance which was not written into the original agreement.
I think you may have heard of such practices on 'new build' flats and houses where the developer was offering 'cash back'....by OVER INFLATING the price of the property.
Such practices have been deemed unlawful and possibly fraudulent by the courts.
All in my humble opinion and posted for discussion purposes only ;)
Having read the Cash Back offer postcard, the offer says nothing about finance. In fact in the small print it says that a deposit needs to be put down by 24th December and the full balance by 31st January 2009. So this is a genuine £1000 off the purchase price and does not apply to lease deals.
As far as inflating the prices, they have not done this because the money is off of their standard system price which I believe has been the same for quite a while now.
hi ricky
busy but not ionic busy
:o :o
jerry
Lol as much as there systems are the dogs a 650 thermo system at 10k is mad. it companys like them who will struggle in coming years as i feoel wfp market is going to get very competitive over the next 12 months
I think that they have more room for manoeuvre that a lot of suppliers as their profits were £400,000 last year. Gives quite a cushion to ride through on.
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"Cash Back" on a system you are buying? ;D
Now thats a very interesting way of describing a LOAN.
Cash Back - infers you agree to take out a loan (or hire purchase arrangment) and that Ionics 'give you' £1,000 back from that loan.
BUT - you'ver still got to make payments and INTEREST on that loan (and that £1,000 they 'gave' you)
Why not just drop the price by a grand?
....maybe somebody is making money off the finance charges well?
NOT really as 'cash back' as it first appears is it?
watch it, the ironics lot will be onto you if you even mention anything bad about ironics
Indeed.
I would argue:
This would technically breach the terms of the Hire Purchase Agreement - in as much as you are receiving a benefit from the finance which was not written into the original agreement.
I think you may have heard of such practices on 'new build' flats and houses where the developer was offering 'cash back'....by OVER INFLATING the price of the property.
Such practices have been deemed unlawful and possibly fraudulent by the courts.
All in my humble opinion and posted for discussion purposes only ;)
Having read the Cash Back offer postcard, the offer says nothing about finance. In fact in the small print it says that a deposit needs to be put down by 24th December and the full balance by 31st January 2009. So this is a genuine £1000 off the purchase price and does not apply to lease deals.
As far as inflating the prices, they have not done this because the money is off of their standard system price which I believe has been the same for quite a while now.
hi ricky
busy but not ionic busy
:o :o
jerry
Lol as much as there systems are the dogs a 650 thermo system at 10k is mad. it companys like them who will struggle in coming years as i feoel wfp market is going to get very competitive over the next 12 months
I think that they have more room for manoeuvre that a lot of suppliers as their profits were £400,000 last year. Gives quite a cushion to ride through on.
£400k profit bet they only sold 50 setups ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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£400k. Thought they would be making more than that. Does this include BWCA and Pure 2o? Mind you, i suppose it depends on how much the bosses are paying themselves.
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"Cash Back" on a system you are buying? ;D
Now thats a very interesting way of describing a LOAN.
Cash Back - infers you agree to take out a loan (or hire purchase arrangment) and that Ionics 'give you' £1,000 back from that loan.
BUT - you'ver still got to make payments and INTEREST on that loan (and that £1,000 they 'gave' you)
Why not just drop the price by a grand?
....maybe somebody is making money off the finance charges well?
NOT really as 'cash back' as it first appears is it?
watch it, the ironics lot will be onto you if you even mention anything bad about ironics
Indeed.
I would argue:
This would technically breach the terms of the Hire Purchase Agreement - in as much as you are receiving a benefit from the finance which was not written into the original agreement.
I think you may have heard of such practices on 'new build' flats and houses where the developer was offering 'cash back'....by OVER INFLATING the price of the property.
Such practices have been deemed unlawful and possibly fraudulent by the courts.
All in my humble opinion and posted for discussion purposes only ;)
Having read the Cash Back offer postcard, the offer says nothing about finance. In fact in the small print it says that a deposit needs to be put down by 24th December and the full balance by 31st January 2009. So this is a genuine £1000 off the purchase price and does not apply to lease deals.
As far as inflating the prices, they have not done this because the money is off of their standard system price which I believe has been the same for quite a while now.
hi ricky
busy but not ionic busy
:o :o
jerry
Lol as much as there systems are the dogs a 650 thermo system at 10k is mad. it companys like them who will struggle in coming years as i feoel wfp market is going to get very competitive over the next 12 months
I think that they have more room for manoeuvre that a lot of suppliers as their profits were £400,000 last year. Gives quite a cushion to ride through on.
Alex,
Are you SURE thats correct?
1. £1,000 cash back (implies finance)
2. £1,000 cash back of your own money?...doesnt really make much sense (grammatically or financially!).
So you send them a cheque cheque for £10,000 and they send you a cheque back for £1,000??? What advantages are there for the customer or dealer?
Presuming this is indeed your own money - is the company not eliminating potential sales from customers who only have £9,000 to spend?
I've heard of cash back deals which involve customers spending money throughout the year and if you hit certain levels, the company will send you a 'reward' or 'cash back' on a percentage of your total annual spend (I believe some credit cards offer this type of promotion).
But this deal is for a one-off purchase so it wouldnt fall into that category.
Unless of course you go out and find your own finance and present the lender with a bill for £10,000 of which you get £1,000 'cash back'......both parties would still be on shaky ground with that 'deal' I would have thought! - collusion?
Has anybody got a link to this promotion card?
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Sounds like you pay the full amount, then you get £1000 back ten days after full and final payment if paid by 31st January.
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Sounds like you pay the full amount, then you get £1000 back ten days after full and final payment if paid by 31st January.
Presuming this is YOUR OWN MONEY -
I still cant see the advantage of paying your own money to a company only to wait 10 to get it back?
You'd lose interest on that money (I presume you'd have it in an interest bearing account).
It could possibly exclude you from the deal if you didnt have £10,000 (if you only had £9,000 perhaps)
Theres no tax breaks involved
Would HMRC consider that £1,000 'income'?
If it doesnt involve finance, why not just discount the sytem by £1,000 for full payment by 31st Jan?...why 'cash back' ?
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this thread is allmost 24 hours old and still nothing from the ironics camp
things must be slipping
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lol give them time they will ;D
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lol give them time they will ;D
I hope they do.
I'd love to hear the advantages to customer (or supplier) of giving them your money only to get it back 10 days later?
Doesn't it strike any of you guys as a rather long winded, circuitous route to a £1,000 discount?
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It's probably a quiet time of year for them and rather than discounting their products they are offering this scheme because they don't want to devalue the brand name which they have invested very heavily in and protect with vigour.
Pretty good marketing in my opinion. Whatever you may think of them they are smart at what they do.
Andrew
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It's probably a quiet time of year for them and rather than discounting their products they are offering this scheme because they don't want to devalue the brand name which they have invested very heavily in and protect with vigour.
Pretty good marketing in my opinion. Whatever you may think of them they are smart at what they do.
Andrew
very smart in fact. to cause this amount of fuss from a promotion is all good business.
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Basically if you pay by credit card or take out a loan it can all go down as business expense and you will then get a gift of £1000 back to spend on yourself. Much better than just a 10% discount. It also looks good on the advert as £1000 has a way of catching attention more so than 10%, 15%. A genuine offer and particularly good if you were just about to invest in one anyway.
Whilst I do not use any of Ionic's products in my own window cleaning firm (I have trialled them though) I do admire the way that they run a professional retail business. Most businesses go under because they do not charge enough for their products. Ionic's have got a sustainable business model and pursue it with great efficiency, hats off to them for their business acumen.
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hats of to them for their business acumen.
and why they are numero uno at what they do!
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It's probably a quiet time of year for them and rather than discounting their products they are offering this scheme because they don't want to devalue the brand name which they have invested very heavily in and protect with vigour.
Pretty good marketing in my opinion. Whatever you may think of them they are smart at what they do.
Andrew
Hmmm...
We are still presuming this has NOTHING to do with finance right?
OK, lets continue from that perspective - its your OWN money.
So you want me to pull my savings out of an account which is generating interest to give it to you and then you give it back to me to put back in my interest bearing account 10 days later?...thus losing me possibly one, two or even a whole years interest (if you are on a fixed rate deposit scheme) ?
WHY?
What if you go in to administration while I'm waiting for my 'cash back'...then what?
NOTE - I am not saying Ionics is (or maybe) going into adminstation, but in these uncertain times do you really want to find out the hard way?
Or how about this -
I pay for the system on my credit card. I take it you will send me cash (as agreed in the promotion) as it states 'cash back' ?
So what if I send the system back within 30 days and do a 'chargeback' on my credit card.....
What do you return to my card - £10,000 or £9,000 ?
I paid £10,000 on my card. YOU must return £10,000 to my card.
Unless of course you return the £1,000 to the card then its not really a 'cash back' offer is it?
Two words spring to mind - LEGAL MINEFIELD
...unless of course it has something to do with finance ;)
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Basically if you pay by credit card or take out a loan it can all go down as business expense and you will then get a gift of £1000 back to spend on yourself. Much better than just a 10% discount. It also looks good on the advert as £1000 has a way of catching attention more so than 10%, 15%. A genuine offer and particularly good if you were just about to invest in one anyway.
Whilst I do not use any of Ionic's products in my own window cleaning firm (I have trialled them though) I do admire the way that they run a professional retail business. Most businesses go under because they do not charge enough for their products. Ionic's have got a sustainable business model and pursue it with great efficiency, hats off to them for their business acumen.
Alex,
Is the card provider aware of the scheme?
Has the card provider agreed to you getting money back as a 'gift'
'Gifting' money from finance deals is a naughty area of the law. The lender didn't agree to it so somebody is breaking its T&C's
Is that the borrower or supplier?
....or BOTH?
The courts seem to be taking the line that's its BOTH parties that colluded to defraud the lender.
Obviously, this has more to do with property deals, but if customers of these systems start to default (for whatever reason) then I'm sure precedents will be found.
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Basically if you pay by credit card or take out a loan it can all go down as business expense and you will then get a gift of £1000 back to spend on yourself. Much better than just a 10% discount. It also looks good on the advert as £1000 has a way of catching attention more so than 10%, 15%. A genuine offer and particularly good if you were just about to invest in one anyway.
Whilst I do not use any of Ionic's products in my own window cleaning firm (I have trialled them though) I do admire the way that they run a professional retail business. Most businesses go under because they do not charge enough for their products. Ionic's have got a sustainable business model and pursue it with great efficiency, hats off to them for their business acumen.
Alex,
One final point -
I would URGE you to check with HMRC on the 'gift' element and whether you are indeed allowed to 'spend it on yourself' and not declare where that money came from and how it was acquired!!
You may find HMRC suggesting that you are attempting to defraud them of VAT and income on that £1,000 you received as a 'gift' from the supplier....after all, you WOULD be off-setting the full £10,000 against VAT/tax..... wouldnt you?
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Hi David,
You make very good reasoning. I was not planning on doing this or even emulating them. I was just pointing out how it would appear and why it was an attractive/clever way of giving a discount.
I personally agree that it would not work as you would have only spent the lower amount unless some accountant on here knows why you would be able to?
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Hi David,
You make very good reasoning. I was not planning on doing this or even emulating them. I was just pointing out how it would appear and why it was an attractive/clever way of giving a discount.
I personally agree that it would noi work as you would have only spent the lower amount unless some accountant on here knows why you would be able to?
Alex,
Seriously, this discussion isnt a dig at Inonics or yourself...or any other supplier!!!
There are ways of offering discounts and there are ways of landing yourself in VERY hot water...given the current climate.
I do hope Ionnics have 'covered all the bases' with this promotion and if nothing else, I've given them some points to consider.
Lets hope it also gives the guys buying the systems with this discount some points to think about over how they declare (and spend) that £1,000 'gift'.
.....because if you fail to declare that wont be Ionics fault will it ;)
A straight forward offer of - £1,000 discount (if paid in full by 31st Jan 2009) would have been more than adequate wouldnt it?
Ionics is taking a different approach and I do wonder whether all parties concerened are aware of the full implications.
If I was a really nasty person....i could think of at least TWO ways I could make a quick grand on this scheme!!...totally above board and not a single law broken by me ;)
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Alex perhaps you should follow suit and do some sort of cashback scheme ;D ;D
Whens the Jan sales start ;)
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£1,000 Cash Back
Sales promotion, nothing more buy today and save £1,000 or buy tomorrow and pay £1,000 more.
It’s a better deal for the customer and to boost the sales of Ionic.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
So why not - £1,000 discount (if paid in full by 31st Jan 2009)?
Why 'cash back' ? Why should YOU risk putting a grand with somebody who is going to give it back to you in 10 days time anyway?
Ewan, you should probably read a little bit of this topic my friend.
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Its Ionic business not yours, there doing a promotion you’re just reading into this.
If you are so concerned and right about what you say, what if you were for example going to buy one of there systems would you turn down the cash back?
They have there T&C you have yours, something you seem to miss!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
ermmmm no, I wouldnt turn down the 'cash back' I would try and establish why they wanted me to give them a grand which they give me back 10 days later.
So its in the T&C's....that makes it alright then
;D
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Not read the whole thread completely but surely this is a way of boosting sales in the short term without dropping their prices long term. As was said earlier list price stays the same.
Similar to the Chrysler buy one get one free on a £20k car. When times get better list price always has been £20k.