Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: simon knight on December 11, 2008, 05:34:22 pm

Title: Trad safety questions
Post by: simon knight on December 11, 2008, 05:34:22 pm

Did a house today and the back had decking...slippery as hell!

I read somewhere on the forum that scrim under the ladder feet helps to reduce backslip. I tried it and I must say the ladder felt pretty stable.

Questions are: Was this a sense of false security? Also my scrim was dry...or is damp/wet better? Lastly would a bit of micro cloth do just as well?

Thanks
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: elite mike on December 11, 2008, 05:42:25 pm
got to be dry simon

used them myself for many years, on ice  :o

some will be shocked at this ;)

but now wfp for me ;D
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: Chris Galloway on December 11, 2008, 05:50:38 pm
I was having problems walking around the street with all the icy patches everywhere, and this was at 1pm! I wouldn;t do it on a ladder now.. wfp all the way.
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: Bryan_Dolby on December 11, 2008, 05:59:03 pm
You need a laddermate

Look at FWC website

Bryan
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: stig on December 11, 2008, 06:01:37 pm
why take chances????  3yrs ago i was stepping off the ladder to get onto flat roof  ,one foot on ladder-one foot on roof,, slid from under me ended up in hospital 2 days -lucky to be walking never mind working...iand i had good rubber suction feet but had abit of ice on one foot ...... so if not sure now it dow get done.. buy urself a trolley setup idid ..cracking set up.  
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: Roy Harding on December 11, 2008, 06:01:43 pm
Buy some patio cleaner from a garden centre, and mix some up in a triger spray. Then spray were you put the ladder feet, this will clean it up for a few years.

Roy

Ps this will also desolve ice.
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: simon knight on December 11, 2008, 06:12:38 pm

Thanks for the input guys, it really is appreciated!

I've looked in ladder mate and good as I'm sure it is I really can't be carrying around yet another piece of gear.

I'm risk adverse to the next guy but in wintertime obviously conditions are not ideal but if I wimped out every time getting at a particular window was a bit dicey then I'd probably end up doing a quarter of the windows on the house...or just be a good weather merchant.

I don't mind a bit of risk as long as it's controlled risk and I'm taking all sensible precautions to minimise it!

I'm trad and therefore I accept that going up ladders with the the risk of a fall comes with the job.
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: stig on December 11, 2008, 06:30:59 pm

Thanks for the input guys, it really is appreciated!

I've looked in ladder mate and good as I'm sure it is I really can't be carrying around yet another piece of gear.

I'm risk adverse to the next guy but in wintertime obviously conditions are not ideal but if I wimped out every time getting at a particular window was a bit dicey then I'd probably end up doing a quarter of the windows on the house...or just be a good weather merchant.

I don't mind a bit of risk as long as it's controlled risk and I'm taking all sensible precautions to minimise it!

I'm trad and therefore I accept that going up ladders with the the risk of a fall comes with the job.
not being funny mate but id rather wimp out and explain to customer than end up like i did again...i know u didnt mean it to sound like that but if u have had a fall u would understand
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: Chris Galloway on December 11, 2008, 06:41:59 pm

Thanks for the input guys, it really is appreciated!

I've looked in ladder mate and good as I'm sure it is I really can't be carrying around yet another piece of gear.

I'm risk adverse to the next guy but in wintertime obviously conditions are not ideal but if I wimped out every time getting at a particular window was a bit dicey then I'd probably end up doing a quarter of the windows on the house...or just be a good weather merchant.

I don't mind a bit of risk as long as it's controlled risk and I'm taking all sensible precautions to minimise it!

I'm trad and therefore I accept that going up ladders with the the risk of a fall comes with the job.
not being funny mate but id rather wimp out and explain to customer than end up like i did again...i know u didnt mean it to sound like that but if u have had a fall u would understand

Lets face it, everyone would rather face the risks until you have the accident.

Lets just hope the accident you may have s is not that bad.

Ive heard many horror stories of WC... and now they only do wfp.
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: stig on December 11, 2008, 06:48:18 pm
im still 90% trad and itll prob stay nthat way its just that ive realised by having another method is far safer than taking a slght chance
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: simon knight on December 11, 2008, 06:54:08 pm

Trouble is working where I do I can only trad...there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of wfp...and if there was I'd go poling tomorrow!

So I have to climb ladders day in day out and so far touch wood I've been OK apart from the odd mishap which led to no harm.

But anyway, back to thread...so it's dry scrim under the feet...

...obviously not ideal but another small measure to keep body in one piece!

Roll on summer!
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: karlosdaze on December 11, 2008, 07:05:33 pm
These are what I use:
www.robinson-solutions.blogspot.com/2008/04/ladders-become-safer.html
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: Niall McAllister on December 11, 2008, 07:08:16 pm
hi all,
even when you know you have done things correctly, and are doing things safely, you can still end up being airlifted to hospital with two skull fractures, a brain bleed, and a broken collar bone.
whatever people say, there is a place for trad, but every step you go up increases the risk. at the end of the day though, you take a risk walking down the street. so, you just have to get on with it.

Niall

oh, don't know if scrim works, but if it's to slippy i tell them it's not happening
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: pjulk on December 11, 2008, 07:09:33 pm
Just don't use ladders on decking its lethal stuff.
Its bad enough just walking on some of them when its wet.

Use a standard pole and your traditional tools.
If the customer don't like it tough ask them to go up a ladder on wet decking.
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: dmlservices on December 11, 2008, 07:12:05 pm
These are what I use:
www.robinson-solutions.blogspot.com/2008/04/ladders-become-safer.html

on that page , there is a pic of you wfp'ing,

the window below is open.  ;D

daz
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: karlosdaze on December 11, 2008, 07:13:17 pm
And - your point is?
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: dmlservices on December 11, 2008, 07:19:41 pm
surley water would por inside ?

daz
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: Feen on December 11, 2008, 07:19:41 pm
Laddermate is excellent. I'm mainly wfp, but keep this in the van. It really is a good piece of kit and remember you earn diddly squat lying in the hospital ;D
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: karlosdaze on December 11, 2008, 07:23:56 pm
Laddermate is excellent. I'm mainly wfp, but keep this in the van. It really is a good piece of kit and remember you earn diddly squat lying in the hospital ;D

I always put them on when using ladders now - they are the only product out there I feel comfortable with. 5 seconds on & off.

Daz - No it doesn't, the building was built using a spirit level.
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: dmlservices on December 11, 2008, 07:28:19 pm
Laddermate is excellent. I'm mainly wfp, but keep this in the van. It really is a good piece of kit and remember you earn diddly squat lying in the hospital ;D

I always put them on when using ladders now - they are the only product out there I feel comfortable with. 5 seconds on & off.

Daz - No it doesn't, the building was built using a spirit level.

 ???


daz
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: simon knight on December 11, 2008, 07:29:16 pm
Thanks for the advise guys, although this wasn't meant to be a trad versus wfp thread ::)

Anyway from your replies I've learnt:

1) If it's slippery don't do it...or if you must then trad with pole as best as possible (Thanks Vince).

2) Get a ladder mate....thanks but I can't be bothered with more gear.

3) Patio cleaner from local garden centre...again good advise but still don't want to carrying more gear.

4) Use dry scrim under feet as it reduces risk of slip! This is what I wanted to hear...many thanks Elite Mike ;D

Right, off to buy some more scrim... ;D ;D
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: Feen on December 11, 2008, 07:34:40 pm
Good luck Simon, but I can't help but say I think scrims are not the answer ;) I'm sure they help, but....
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: karlosdaze on December 11, 2008, 07:43:15 pm

4) Use dry scrim under feet as it reduces risk of slip! This is what I wanted to hear...many thanks Elite Mike ;D

Right, off to buy some more scrim... ;D ;D

Reduce slip is not as good as won't slip.
Oh well.......... it's your neck. If you live - do you really think your window cleaning round will still be there when you get back after your broken ankle/neck/hip? Either get the proper tools or a wfp - please!
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: Chris Galloway on December 11, 2008, 07:46:56 pm

4) Use dry scrim under feet as it reduces risk of slip! This is what I wanted to hear...many thanks Elite Mike ;D

Right, off to buy some more scrim... ;D ;D

Reduce slip is not as good as won't slip.
Oh well.......... it's your neck. If you live - do you really think your window cleaning round will still be there when you get back after your broken ankle/neck/hip? Either get the proper tools or a wfp - please!

Let people make their own mistakes. You cant force things, if people cant be bothered for their own safety or for the good of their "professional" business or even their families then thats their problem, not mine or yours.

Still if they do have an accident, then there is more work out there for the rest of us :P
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: David Slater on December 11, 2008, 07:49:08 pm

Did a house today and the back had decking...slippery as hell!

I read somewhere on the forum that scrim under the ladder feet helps to reduce backslip. I tried it and I must say the ladder felt pretty stable.

Questions are: Was this a sense of false security? Also my scrim was dry...or is damp/wet better? Lastly would a bit of micro cloth do just as well?

Thanks

The answer has to be - dont do it!!!

You have correctly indentified the hazard (the slippy decking).

Putting things under the feet of the ladders couldnt really be classed as controlling or removing the hazard.

Lets presume you continue up the ladders anyway and you fall:

The householder would not doubt put in a defence of -  volenti non fit injuria (The risk was willingly accepted) as would your insurance company.

No doubt your insurance company would refuse to pay your loss of earnings or any damage you caused.

The householder would not be held liable for any injury you sustained. You may still be prosecuted by the HSE/LEHO if you affected 'others by your actions'

You could be sued for Negligence;

Negligence is   - ‘ the lack of reasonable care or conduct which results in the injury (or financial loss) of or to another’

‘You must take reasonable care to avoid acts or omissions which you reasonably foresee would be likely to injure your neighbour’ (Lord Aitkin 1932)

Not only could YOU be injured....YOU could be held responsible for any damage you cause while falling and your insurance company would tell you to 'eff off' and pay for the damage yourself!!

Offer to clean the decking and tell them WHY ;D
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: Andrew McCann on December 11, 2008, 08:18:05 pm
Sorry but I can't stay quiet on this one.

Almost every working day I speak to at least one window cleaner who has had a bad accident as a result of a fall from a ladder. Most for want of better words "get away" with smashed ankles, heels etc but there are a lot worse than that.

I don't believe that the statistics show even a small percentage of serious injuries from ladder accidents. This thread shows why in my opinion. Putting scrim on wet decking for example. The "Can't be bothered" attitude to carrying a small potentially life saving piece of kit like the laddermate again shows why these accidents happen.

If it isn't safe to do it then DON'T DO IT!!! or if it can be made safe by using safety aids USE THEM!!

Don't get me wrong.. this isn't a dig at ladders. They are safe when USED PROPERLY!!   


Andrew
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: Andrew McCann on December 11, 2008, 08:22:43 pm
Errrr is this thread a wind up???  :o   :o
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: KLEEN-ZONE on December 11, 2008, 10:13:45 pm
HSE are going to be well impressed ( not) when they visit after a fall and you say, I had a bit of scrim under the ladder. Hardly a safety device!  :o

I also use trad methods and don't go without my ladder mate whether wet or dry ground.

Two minutes to get another bit of kit from van or six weeks in hospital .
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: Steve B on December 12, 2008, 10:24:37 am
I too had similar to this and was given advice about ladder safety. Ladder Limpet by laddatec.com was advised and is the best bit of kit you can have. If I go up a ladder, ladder Limpet is always attached to the ladder. I feel safer and more confident about ladder work now.

I am very grateful for the sound advice I received from experienced members here on this forum and by doing so I now have some experience that I can now pass on to others.

I think we all suffer at times from the "it won't happen to me" attitude but this is a serious mistake, never ever compromise on safety.

If you don't wish to take your own safety seriously just spare a thought for how upset your children will be sitting at your hospital bed or worse at your graveside.

It's not always about you but the people that depend upon you.
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: simon knight on December 12, 2008, 01:51:56 pm

OK Guys, you are all reading off the same page so it's fairly obvious that I'm being a nincompoop (not for the 1st time ;D) so I'll take your advice. No scrim under the feet!!!

If it's slippery I'll trad pole as best I can...or not do it at all and knock a bit off the price.

My God you guys moan but I get the impression that you really do care...so thanks :)

Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: elite mike on December 12, 2008, 02:59:20 pm

OK Guys, you are all reading off the same page so it's fairly obvious that I'm being a nincompoop (not for the 1st time ;D) so I'll take your advice. No scrim under the feet!!!

If it's slippery I'll trad pole as best I can...or not do it at all and knock a bit off the price.

My God you guys moan but I get the impression that you really do care...so thanks :)



hi simon

i knew that would get them going ;D ;D ;D

but i have used scrim on many occasions over the years, just lucky i suppose ;D

i should of added, that i used poles, if i thought it to dodgey

stay lucky ;D

mike

Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: simon knight on December 12, 2008, 03:57:41 pm

OK Guys, you are all reading off the same page so it's fairly obvious that I'm being a nincompoop (not for the 1st time ;D) so I'll take your advice. No scrim under the feet!!!

If it's slippery I'll trad pole as best I can...or not do it at all and knock a bit off the price.

My God you guys moan but I get the impression that you really do care...so thanks :)



hi simon

i knew that would get them going ;D ;D ;D

but i have used scrim on many occasions over the years, just lucky i suppose ;D

i should of added, that i used poles, if i thought it to dodgey

stay lucky ;D

mike



I tell you Mike some of these guys are worse than my mum ;D...But their hearts are in the right place ...which is worth diamonds in my book!

Just 8 working days before my 2 weeks off (away from risking my scraggy neck up ladders)...can't wait as haven't had any time off since summer and feeling stale and weary :(

Have a good weekend Guv'

Simon
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: trevor perry on December 12, 2008, 11:34:12 pm
i hate to put a spanner in the works but on a lot of surfaces a damp scrim works better than a lot of the so called anti slip devices i  know because i have tried them but as said the health and safety officers wont see it that way if you have a fall.
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: trevor perry on December 12, 2008, 11:47:17 pm
Not question it works 99% of the time, but should you do it?
probably not but as said it works better than a lot of the anti slip devices so  maybe these shouldnt be used either.
Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: Peter Fogwill on December 13, 2008, 12:09:04 am

Did a house today and the back had decking...slippery as hell!

I read somewhere on the forum that scrim under the ladder feet helps to reduce backslip. I tried it and I must say the ladder felt pretty stable.

Questions are: Was this a sense of false security? Also my scrim was dry...or is damp/wet better? Lastly would a bit of micro cloth do just as well?

Thanks

Simon If you couldn't use, or didn't want to use a water fed pole, you could have always done the dangerous windows with a pole set up with a squeegee and applicator on it.

Peter

Title: Re: Trad safety questions
Post by: Feen on December 13, 2008, 08:52:24 pm
i hate to put a spanner in the works but on a lot of surfaces a damp scrim works better than a lot of the so called anti slip devices i  know because i have tried them
What you tried them to the point where they slip :o I don't think so. Maybe you mean you've tried the scrim and not fallen off ??? Different bucketful of scrims entirely.