Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Kevin R on December 02, 2008, 01:07:50 am
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DIY - its it really worth it? Several members of this forum seems to love all things DIY.
From DIY hot water systems - to gutter vacs - to Harris poles the list goes on and on. What do you think?
Personally I have neither the time or the inclination to be bothered. Also because I employ staff I have to provide the correct and safe equipment (fit for purpose) or my insurance is invalid. So DIY is not really an option for me.
I can understand if you wish to stay a sole trader that DIY is a way of saving money, but what if you wish to grow your business especially considering todays environment of personal liability and the current health and safety legislation, is it really a long term viable option?
Discussion appreciated :)
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If you employ people I would say no to DIY.
I employ people and yes you have to consider the H&S aspect all the time.
Pat testing, which I am also qualified to do... How many of you out there PAT Test your equipment either by yourselves or get another company to do that.
There arent many that have that done I bet! And keep a record
DIY is great if you have the time but not for larger companies that employ and even if you have an R&D Department... for those that arent sure what that is... its Reseach & Development and this type of department is for System designers not your standard window cleaning firm no matter how large unless you are distributing the WFP systems and a selling them on.
So yes DIY does have its place, and just to add even if it is DIY you can still comform to the H&S it just a little more tricky if there is an incident.
I voted YES but my systems are not DIY
Dave
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When i first went wfp i talked to every system manufacturer,sent off for every brochure and spent a lot of time to decide whether to build my own system or purchase from a supplier.
The decision by me was to go diy purely on price.
I figured that my round was 95% domestic and therefore i needed just a system that would deliver pure water to a brush that was attached to the top of a pole...(oh yes that is what wfp is all about).
I installed (with the help of a local welding/engineering company) a 400 litre tank...get it bolted down properly....
I then bought all the necessary sundries that were required to complete the task..(Pump,pump controller,85ah leisure battery,battery charger,microbore hose,metal hose reel,various poles and brushes).
I put it all together and hey presto i had a system that does exactly the same as any other cold water wfp system.
Has it lasted,i hear you shout.....well of course i have changed/upgraded the poles and the shurflow controller went a few months ago,but yes it is still going strongafter 4 years.
The only differance with my system and a system from a manufacturer is/was about 50% cost saving.
Granted an Ionics/omnipole/brodex system looks the part...but they do the same thing...pump pure water up a pole.....
:)
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as has already been said diy system uses mainly all the same parts a fitted system from a company has.
I guess you are right that if you have employees and several vans then a fitted system is probably the way to go. I'm a sole trader and so diy is the most cost effective for me also. Another benefit of that for me is my system is tailor made for my needs, very basic and only has what I need. If something fails or needs repairing I can do it myself as I built it and need'nt wait days for delivery of a part as most fittings were bought locally to me.
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Their will be a majority leaning from those using this forum towards DIY. This is because those who take the time to come online and research are usually looking for alternatives to the glossy one stop companies that are in the market place.
The vast majority of WC'ers however are more than happy to buy off the shelf, because they just want to work with the least hassle and thought.
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DIY was a big option in the early days when wfp systems cost £5k minimum, but now with the likes of Andrew Mccaan you can get a fully fitted system for peanuts.
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I went DIY after seeing the huge prices companies like Ionics quoted. Not long after I found out about pure freedom, gardiners, sureclean systems etc, who offer very reasonably priced professionally installed systems. For many, the time wasted trying to diy would more than cover any additional cost of getting a system fitted. I would consider getting my next system professionally installed,.. the only thing holding me back is the distance to any decent suppliers from where I live!
Don't get me wrong,.. I love DIY,.. but the savings aren't as big as they used to be!
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For a one man operation, yes of course! :D
Like most people I assume they bought professional equipment, then after some scrutiny realized, "Self made alternatives" could equal standard but at a cheaper price! :)
Having said as for these large 60ft poles... I think it would be sensible to leave to the professionals! ;)
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Of course DIY is worth it.
Do you do it at home or get a professional in to do your decorating? stick a shelf up? etc..
Of course if you employ, them you need to be within your terms of insurance and employment law, so it may not be ideal. So you would get a professional in to put up a shelf in the office per se, you wouldn't do it yourself, but at home of course you would do it yourself.
But for many of the window cleaners out there that are sole traders, its a cheaper way of doing something that get the job done without breaking the bank.
Personally i like to DIY everything, if it comes to a point where i cant do it, or a feel i need professional help then i'll go and get it. That goes for anything in life not just WC.
The essense of DIY is to save money, personally i cant afford to spash out on pre made systems so i'll try DIY first, if the system works ok and i get business from it, i'd probably by an off the shelf version at a later date, i expect that most would, especially so if you expand and start to employ.
Besides not everyone is DIY inclined, you just may not have the mentality or the time to site there and work it out, you might be the type to want to have something ready made for you to plug in and go.
So yes it does have its place, but thats depending on the circumstances you are in, and the type of person that you are.
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Very sensible reply, Chris.
Mike
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I employ and have 3 x DIY Wfp set ups in my vans
Of course if money was no option I would have nice
shiny systems in the vans.
Russ
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If I had the money when I started out I would of gone for a factory fitted one. But just starting out money was tight and I had to go DIY.
My next van will have a factory fitted one
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I had to go diy.......cos nobody is currently selling a Quad Setup!
But I'm an engineer, so it's a little diferent for me, I love the challenge.
Also the domestic side of this business is still in Its infancy: we have parking issues with vans, intense physical labour with trolleys/backpacks. The next ten years, I'm sure, will see a dramatic change in the line up the big boys are selling.
As far as poles go I love the Omnipole alloy stuff. I use 2x12 foots fornearly all of my work. It can be telescopic or modular: for normal domestics, just one pole, for 3 storeys both poles. Whole range of brushes/ accessories and these poles will be in service in 5 years time.
I've voted yes, but use a mixture of both!
Kevin j
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Depends on what is termed diy. If for instance you buy a static tank and ro and set it up in your garage or unit by yourself would that be diy? Would it be dangerous to your staff? Would you pay for a plumber to set it up? Dos your plumber change your filters?
If sourcing ready made components and assembling them is that diy?
Diy really is overcoming problems and making bits to fit by making them yourself.
What i do is only assemble my components as they arrive from the supplier apart from adapting a cctv camera and jetting my own brushes a while back.
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Their will be a majority leaning from those using this forum towards DIY. This is because those who take the time to come online and research are usually looking for alternatives to the glossy one stop companies that are in the market place.
The vast majority of WC'ers however are more than happy to buy off the shelf, because they just want to work with the least hassle and thought.
Do you have any evidence for this assertion?
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This post was put up beacause of the guttervac thread. If you buy a vac from omnipole it will most likely arrive in boxes, you unpack them and assemble the parts. If you source your own parts they also arrive in boxes - you unpack them and assemble the parts............ spot the difference?
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no i think its to do with the diy heated gas systems
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no i think its to do with the diy heated gas systems
its everything, poles, systems, gutter vac and hot water..
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Their will be a majority leaning from those using this forum towards DIY. This is because those who take the time to come online and research are usually looking for alternatives to the glossy one stop companies that are in the market place.
The vast majority of WC'ers however are more than happy to buy off the shelf, because they just want to work with the least hassle and thought.
Do you have any evidence for this assertion?
Why, do you have evidence to the contrary? :)
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alex, think i will buy the gear from you after xmas ;D
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Their will be a majority leaning from those using this forum towards DIY. This is because those who take the time to come online and research are usually looking for alternatives to the glossy one stop companies that are in the market place.
The vast majority of WC'ers however are more than happy to buy off the shelf, because they just want to work with the least hassle and thought.
Do you have any evidence for this assertion?
Why, do you have evidence to the contrary? :)
No, but I'm not making any assertions. You are.
So again. Do you have any evidence for what you say?
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I employ and have 6 x DIY Wfp set ups in my vans
Of course if money was no option I would have nice
shiny systems in the vans.
Russ
i argee whith russ
diy is good for some things but not everyting
jerry
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I think that we need to bear the phrase "fit for purpose" in mind.
A good example of this is the gutter inspection kit that we use. KevR has particular requirements and uses a very expensive and technically advanced camera system.
I work on domestic properties only and i use a motorcycle rear-view mirror on a Harris pole.
Kev's camera wouldn't suit me. My mirror wouldn't suit Kev.
Neither one is intrinsically superior, but they are both suited to a particular requirement.
My own opinion is that DIY is fine for certain things using simple technology, and is superior in many cases where simplicity is a virtue.
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Fitted system but DIY hot water system,i saved over 3k and if i want it will go hotter.
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My DIY system was built according to the needs of my round.I have made modifications along the road, and I believe I have the best trolley system for my requirements, my mini hook on pump box is as compact as it gets with the pump and Varistream in it.
Three years last August and still going strong, one or two 25 litre containers on board, and carries two poles.
I have had people stop to take photo's of it on at least 5 occasions, not bad for a scrap yard challenge, and if something does go wrong, I will know how to fix it.
I love DIY.
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Another point worth bearing in mind is that very many inventions were born in a DIYer's mind and hands.
Michael Faraday was a DIY scientist in his early life. Charles Darwin was a DIY scientist for his entire life as far as I can see. Isaac Newton made many of his own telescopes.
DIY has a long and noble history.
Who put the very first wfp kit together?
Who made the first trolley system?
Who converted the first Bentley brush or Salmon brush?
Who was the first to use IPA as an additive to pure water?
I don't know the answers to any of these questions - but I'm pretty sure that at least a couple of them were DIYers.
The mocking voices are missing a rather important point.
Newton extended the work of many great scientists and said: If I have seen farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants.
If you are now enjoying the benefits of ready-made kit, it is because you are benefitting from the labours of those who put a great deal of passionate thought, time and skill into developing the kit in the first place.
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To someone who knows nothing about WFP it looks a nightmare i would think although building a straight forward cold setup is easy even if you have very basic knowledge when it comes to DIY,it looks far more complicated than it is to build.
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Their will be a majority leaning from those using this forum towards DIY. This is because those who take the time to come online and research are usually looking for alternatives to the glossy one stop companies that are in the market place.
The vast majority of WC'ers however are more than happy to buy off the shelf, because they just want to work with the least hassle and thought.
Do you have any evidence for this assertion?
Why, do you have evidence to the contrary? :)
No, but I'm not making any assertions. You are.
So again. Do you have any evidence for what you say?
Hi Wally
First of all I am not knocking DIYers as I myself am one (including all my poles, brushes, etc).
Regarding my earlier post, I have no 'evidence' as such - scientists haven't done many studies on this subject! It's just my observation of our sales based on the percentage of forum users and what they buy compared to the much larger percentage of non-forum users and what they buy.
Apologies if you thought my comments were in any way didactic, mis-leading or presumptuous.
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You’re of the point Wally; DIY is fine up to a point but ultimately good business practice dictates that it doesn’t become financially viable.
In most cases I can see that it would be better to just be a little patient and go and earn the money to buy the item and add something to your business.
The time it would take me to source the parts and make a gutter scoop, I could earn several hundred pounds cleaning gutters, and that’s a simple tool.
There will always be a certain amount of other work that doesn’t involve cleaning windows and making money.
BUT
sometimes a "tool" isnt available off the shelf, for example the Zen-flex Fishing pole, if your after a VERY light pole ( and can spare 10 mins of your time ) then you have the Zen-flex ( i know some1 will point me towards the SL2 ( i think thats the modular pole ) which i guess its in the same weight class, but to save your self X amount of money for 10 mins of your time, i cannot see the issue
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Trust me Kevin when i tell you that what you think is tennis elbow probobly isn`t,i suffered for over a year and it wasn`t tennis elbow it was back related and not due to poles etc.If you need to talk let me know,the magician of a woman fixed it in about 5 visits.
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I suffer from tennis elbow in both arms. It comes from using large heavy poles on repetitive commercial jobs. I now have a SL2. Thanks to Alex and his R & D my tennis elbow hardly ever happens anymore. Now if it wasn't for Alex and his DIY in the beginning I would not have the benefit of the pole.
so for your tennis elbow you buy the SL2
for my neck pain, i use the RT Zen-flex
both have the same effect, your tennis elbow goes, my neck pain goes
yet last night you called me a idiot because i DIY'ed
seems foolishly hypocritical to me
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The SL2 will stand up to the job but these other converted fishing poles are just not strong enough day in day out i`ve used them and snapped sections with no effort and not by using brut force either,i know there the cheap option for some but i wouldn`t dare use them near members of the public due to them being unpridictable and so weak.In most situations a tele pole is far easier and safer under 30ft or so.
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when i first ever looked at this site some long time back, the thoughts a lot of you had to the original super lite maver pole amazed me but now quite a few of you now use the sl2 and this is down to Alex and Jeff doing there diy, now not to many of you know me on here but some will know me from around other forums as smithy, Ive done a lot of diy over some years myself and there is a lot to be learnt from it, and the stuff learnt can be passed on to yourselves and to the likes of Alex etc, the industry would not be where it was if someone some where didn't do some diy and come up with the first system or poles they just didn't appear ,
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Who made the first trolley system?
Omnipole in 1999
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You’re going into the realm of research and development and invention.
You have to keep your focus, if you are intending to run a window cleaning business.
The best thing for about DIY is the educational aspect it can give you, I don’t think the saving money part is great, helpful yes but if you can wait you will be able to get the money anyway.
Manufactures are getting more competitive with there prices, so being more business minded will be more useful than being able to build your own system.
I think you'll find the savings can be very big to anyone starting out. New Van and system could cost as much as £25000 a second hand van and diy could be a third or less. A diy pole could be £60 for lightweight carbon modular or about £400 for something better. A guttervac could be £1000 less if you diy. Heater systems too are far less .Pretty big savings for anyone starting out if you ask me.
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You have to keep your focus, if you are intending to run a window cleaning business.
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I'm not absolutely sure of this, but wasn't Andrew McCann a window cleaner? I think he has focus.
And what about Alex Gardiner? He's a window cleaner, isn't he? And doesn't he have focus?
Focus is fine, and very valuable, Ewan. But it isn't sufficient by itself. You also need to have a zoom lens.
Sometimes you need to zoom in and look at the very fine detail. At other times you need to zoom out and look at the bigger picture to see how all the elements fit together.
Most people are naturally inclined to think either zoom out or zoom in - big picture or fine detail.
The very smartest people have trained themselves to zoom in and out all the time. They look at the big picture and then decide where it can be improved. They then zoom in and work on that specific detail, all the time zooming in and out to check that things are still fitting together. That's how systems are created - as systems are made up of interlinking parts.
It strikes me, Ewan, that your focus is on the detail. Try zooming out and seeing the bigger picture.
(Academics are very often mocked for their specialisations and lack of ability to zoom out. The joke is that they learn more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing.)
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Pat testing, which I am also qualified to do... How many of you out there PAT Test your equipment either by yourselves or get another company to do that.
Pat testing what exactly? If you have pat certs for your poles then you must not be qualified. Being serious I cant see much apart from maybe a battery charger that is pat testable so what are you on about? Now if it was my other business we were talking about (entertainments agency Mobile discos, bands etc) then that would be a different story Not having a go just wondered! ;)
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Yes and no.
Where things don't exist like a hot on demand system, electric reel, and remote ground operated gutter tools I have invented them.
I pretty much use only the very best components though- such as a rinnai heater and not a made in hong cong gone wrong toy.Many of the pro set ups use stinky diesel and are very inefficent. My system is miles better.
Ditto for the electric reel, i've heard there is one for £850, but i've not heard of anyone who's got one and so knowing some of the issues i don't believe it would work anyway. My electric reel does work and unlike the hot system I can't see any problems with employees using one (i've got two).In fact it would increase productivity on repeat domestics to an incredible degree.
However, where something already exists- like george or an xtel pole i don't kid myself that I could better these because so many' brains' have already cracked the problems. But even here paul (george) seems to respond well to being nagged and has intro'd a cash in hand figure, and the unger is better than the xtel (go on ask me why? and while we are on the subject how good would the slx be if they got hold of that? ;D)
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Discount what heater do you use,i rang up about 1 like yours and it was about £219 does that sound like the 1 you have with a push button ignition.
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rinnai 54 eu(from memory) i paid a bit more. Yes push button ignition pilot light.Over a year and no problems. I do use car radiator hose on the hot out. I do have a bypass back to the tank controlled by a tap.(the bypass is especially usefull on these cold nights- i can take the pressure out of the reel by turning the tap and i can get the heater going by running straight into the tank. Last year a couple of mornings the hose and pole were frozen (think nights of minus ten) I ran the hot for a few minutes then put it into the hose. I had to do this several times but after about ten or fifteen minutes everthing worked. Compare this with guys who had to wait for mid day for things to thaw or didn't work at all.
The flow rate is quite high admittedly but I work fast and this helps.This is one of my disagreements with Nathaneal, i would never tamper with internal factory preset safety features.
As things get colder use the bypass to release the pressure, diconnect the two hoselocks and take the drain screw out so that it doesn't freeze up and break.This heater is a bomb proof tank and will never give you any problems, mostly you will use it on the minimum settings.
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The flow rate is quite high admittedly but I work fast and this helps.This is one of my disagreements with Nathaneal, i would never tamper with internal factory preset safety features.
I agree,.. I'd prefer not to if at all possible. I've been discussing the issues with John at GES (The L5 suppliers) and am hoping that a factory modified unit with a real 1 litre a minute flow rate (It is quoted as 1lpm on the specs, but seems to require more as standard), no 17 minute auto cut out, and a CE mark will be available very shortly,...
Watch another space,.. because when it is available, I'm sure I won't be allowed to mention it here!!!
::)
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that does pretty much answer all of my crits, well done nathaneal. As you say this modified version would be very specific to us and would sell well.
However, i don't believe it because if the ce was that easy it would already be gotten. This is what makes it legal to sell in eu or to be more specific UK. i think the guys spinning you a line, but I look forward to being proven wrong.(it won't be the first time).
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i dont do all that diy lark. i just pay a decorator to do it. easier that way. whats diy got to do with window cleaning anyway????