Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Steve B on November 29, 2008, 09:39:01 am
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Hi All,
Now I'm new to this exciting business of Window Cleaning have almost got the kit together and will hopefully start in the next week.
My question is on best place to position the ladder when doing 2nd floor bedroom windows.
Should I position the top of the ladder up under the sill and clean reaching up or position the ladder to one side but extend the ladder higher so comes up half way up the window (if you see what I mean) and clean one side then move ladder to opposite side of window to clean other half.
Sorry if it's a stupid question and may well be a simple answer but there is always a right way and wrong way of doing what appears the simplest task.
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Read the "Working at height" regulations on the health and safety website. Then read the ladder safety section on the health and safety website.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/ladders.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/regulations.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/index.htm
Also check for specific window cleaning items on the HSE website....
http://www.hse.gov.uk/search/googlecoop.htm?q=window+cleaning&cof=FORID%3A11&cx=015848178315289032903%3Akous-jano68#1146
Once you have done that go out and get a WFP system.....
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(http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/images/indexregulations.jpg)
scary aint it seeing the spikes come up to you before you land on them......dont do any ladder work unless properly trained and in my opinion 2nd floor work? forget it mate. 8)
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Forgot this one to.....
Its a leafet from the HSE about window cleaning from ladders....
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf
Regards
MR H
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Get a stand-off, they make it easier to clean the window and safer too.
(http://www.yeomanpressings.com/images/standoff.jpg)
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if you have to go up a ladder then safety 1st...matts right about getting a device such as that, however even if the ladder was bolted to the wall and set in 6 feet foundations it is still inherently unsafe as you the user are mobile on them, the ladder will be ok in a gust of wind, but unless you are superhuman then you are going bye bye's.....and if you are wearing the wrong boots/footwear then you can slip off very easily.....go wfp mate.
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Some good advice but I feel I may have mislead slightly I think I should have said 1st floor windows and not 2nd ie: not ground floor the one above. I would never dare go higher than that.
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Get a stand-off, they make it easier to clean the window and safer too.
(http://www.yeomanpressings.com/images/standoff.jpg)
I like the look of this!
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Buy a set of these if you need to use ladders for w/c (stay safe)
http://www.laddatec.com/
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Its not that bad as everyone makes out to justify their expense on wfp, if you can afford to go wfp then it is wiser but ladders arent the dangerous thing everyone here makes out if you use them sensibly, if you are sensible you will have a life time using them without incident, just take it slow and dont do anything you dont feel safe on.....ever- the customer will not pay you for a broken leg !!
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Hi All,
Now I'm new to this exciting business of Window Cleaning have almost got the kit together and will hopefully start in the next week.
My question is on best place to position the ladder when doing 2nd floor bedroom windows.
Should I position the top of the ladder up under the sill and clean reaching up or position the ladder to one side but extend the ladder higher so comes up half way up the window (if you see what I mean) and clean one side then move ladder to opposite side of window to clean other half.
Sorry if it's a stupid question and may well be a simple answer but there is always a right way and wrong way of doing what appears the simplest task.
I would recommend trying to work with an experienced WC'er for a bit who can show you how to use a ladder properly. personally I think all these contraptions to fit to ladders are unnecessary. Its ALL about experience IMO, working with an experienced guy means he can do the difficult ones whilst you get used to working at height on the easy ones.
But if he have no one to foot the ladder or doesn't have a safety device fitted, then he's breaking H&S guide lines before he starts.
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Its not that bad as everyone makes out to justify their expense on wfp, if you can afford to go wfp then it is wiser but ladders arent the dangerous thing everyone here makes out if you use them sensibly, if you are sensible you will have a life time using them without incident, just take it slow and dont do anything you dont feel safe on.....ever- the customer will not pay you for a broken leg !!
I agree common sense is the key factor.
From my original post all I was trying to get at was those that use ladders when cleaning 1st floor windows do people usually extend the ladder to rest just under the window sill or extend it above the window and move the ladder along as you work across the window.
I didn't mean to turn it into a health and safety issue but was my fault for which I must apologise as I did say in original post 2nd floor windows. Although it has been interesting looking at more of the safety devices available.
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Hi All,
Now I'm new to this exciting business of Window Cleaning have almost got the kit together and will hopefully start in the next week.
My question is on best place to position the ladder when doing 2nd floor bedroom windows.
Should I position the top of the ladder up under the sill and clean reaching up or position the ladder to one side but extend the ladder higher so comes up half way up the window (if you see what I mean) and clean one side then move ladder to opposite side of window to clean other half.
Sorry if it's a stupid question and may well be a simple answer but there is always a right way and wrong way of doing what appears the simplest task.
I would recommend trying to work with an experienced WC'er for a bit who can show you how to use a ladder properly. personally I think all these contraptions to fit to ladders are unnecessary. Its ALL about experience IMO, working with an experienced guy means he can do the difficult ones whilst you get used to working at height on the easy ones.
But if he have no one to foot the ladder or doesn't have a safety device fitted, then he's breaking H&S guide lines before he starts.
Behave, the guidelined say you can use ladders for work of short duration and ladders have been said to not be illegal for wc's....lets not go down the "ladders are illegal route" why are b&q still selling them?
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If you get some ladder mits they will reduce the chances of the ladder slipping on the window sills, were ever possible, put the ladder into the recess of the window frame.
You also need something to level your ladder up on un-even ground, the chances of finding anywhere with level ground is very slim.
Always think of your own safety first, don't take risks for a couple of quide.
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Hi All,
Now I'm new to this exciting business of Window Cleaning have almost got the kit together and will hopefully start in the next week.
My question is on best place to position the ladder when doing 2nd floor bedroom windows.
Should I position the top of the ladder up under the sill and clean reaching up or position the ladder to one side but extend the ladder higher so comes up half way up the window (if you see what I mean) and clean one side then move ladder to opposite side of window to clean other half.
Sorry if it's a stupid question and may well be a simple answer but there is always a right way and wrong way of doing what appears the simplest task.
I would recommend trying to work with an experienced WC'er for a bit who can show you how to use a ladder properly. personally I think all these contraptions to fit to ladders are unnecessary. Its ALL about experience IMO, working with an experienced guy means he can do the difficult ones whilst you get used to working at height on the easy ones.
But if he have no one to foot the ladder or doesn't have a safety device fitted, then he's breaking H&S guide lines before he starts.
Behave, the guidelined say you can use ladders for work of short duration and ladders have been said to not be illegal for wc's....lets not go down the "ladders are illegal route" why are b&q still selling them?
I don't see any quote there, or anyone mentioning the use of ladders to be illegal
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Its not that bad as everyone makes out to justify their expense on wfp, if you can afford to go wfp then it is wiser but ladders arent the dangerous thing everyone here makes out if you use them sensibly, if you are sensible you will have a life time using them without incident, just take it slow and dont do anything you dont feel safe on.....ever- the customer will not pay you for a broken leg !!
I agree common sense is the key factor.
From my original post all I was trying to get at was those that use ladders when cleaning 1st floor windows do people usually extend the ladder to rest just under the window sill or extend it above the window and move the ladder along as you work across the window.
I didn't mean to turn it into a health and safety issue but was my fault for which I must apologise as I did say in original post 2nd floor windows. Although it has been interesting looking at more of the safety devices available.
If the window is flat/flush with wall i would have my ladders in the centre of the area im going to clean so i can reach each way equally, and a few inches above the window sill to give you the highest possible reach, if your ladder is too far under the sill you may struggle to reach the top of the glass/frame, if the window is a bay etc you may need to put the ladder under the sill so it doesnt slip, my first ladder incident caused by inexperience was the ground being uneven and as i went up it rocked to one side into the mortar causing the top to slide of the sill on the bay, so its all common sense mate, just take it slow to not learn the hard way !!
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Its not that bad as everyone makes out to justify their expense on wfp, if you can afford to go wfp then it is wiser but ladders arent the dangerous thing everyone here makes out if you use them sensibly, if you are sensible you will have a life time using them without incident, just take it slow and dont do anything you dont feel safe on.....ever- the customer will not pay you for a broken leg !!
I agree common sense is the key factor.
From my original post all I was trying to get at was those that use ladders when cleaning 1st floor windows do people usually extend the ladder to rest just under the window sill or extend it above the window and move the ladder along as you work across the window.
I didn't mean to turn it into a health and safety issue but was my fault for which I must apologise as I did say in original post 2nd floor windows. Although it has been interesting looking at more of the safety devices available.
If the window is flat/flush with wall i would have my ladders in the centre of the area im going to clean so i can reach each way equally, and a few inches above the window sill to give you the highest possible reach, if your ladder is too far under the sill you may struggle to reach the top of the glass/frame, if the window is a bay etc you may need to put the ladder under the sill so it doesnt slip, my first ladder incident caused by inexperience was the ground being uneven and as i went up it rocked to one side into the mortar causing the top to slide of the sill on the bay, so its all common sense mate, just take it slow to not learn the hard way !!
Hi Sean,
Thank you very much indeed that is exactly what I wanted to know. I will be taking it slow and steady, I already have factory fitted Supagrip feet attached to the ladder and will also invest in say laddermate or similar.
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Also, to save moving your ladder unnecessarily learn to squeegee with both hands.
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Also, to save moving your ladder unnecessarily learn to squeegee with both hands.
Good point
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Some good advice but I feel I may have mislead slightly I think I should have said 1st floor windows and not 2nd ie: not ground floor the one above. I would never dare go higher than that.
I would suggest WFP. However, if you must go up a ladder, a "must have" is a pair of ladder mitts. It cuts out any sideways slipping and also protects the surface where the top of the ladder is leaning.
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Forget the stand-off some one has posted it’s useless. Invest some money in the Laddatec’s “Ladda Limpet” and Ladderfix make the “Microlite” (as well as ladder mitts) these will help you position your ladders.
Keep you safe and will able you to do work you should turn down if you don’t have these.
I have both, and they comply with working at height regulations, but more importantly they will reduce the chances of an accident.
Good luck ;)
It isnt useless Ewan, you obviously, quite obviously, havent got a clue.
Good God you are an arrogant idiot.
I havent used a ladder limpet so wouldnt want to pass judgement on them but I fail to see how they might make the actual cleaning of a window easier, a stand-off certainly does. For that reason alone theyre worth having.
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If you can't reach the top of a first floor window with the ladder resting on the cill. you can sometimes put the ladder ABOVE the window - even 'jam' it under the eaves so that it feels more 'solid'.
Mike
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When did stand-offs become outdated?
When Ewan woke up I suppose.
Im am sure the devices you suggest are safe Ewan, but that wasnt the original question.
As for your ladder limpets, they do not go anywhere near the top of the ladder, this is what the original question was about, positioning of the top of the ladder. Stand-offs help to position the top of the ladder away from the glass thus giving more room to work, making the whole operation an easier, SAFER and more efficient process.
I fail to see how your outdating rubbish equates in all of this.
But then again I have no idea why trolls exist in the first place either.
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I'm sorry if this post is causing some argument that was never my intention.
I think the use of a stand off could be the ticket in light of my original question. Now I'm on a tight budget at the moment and have found these that I feel will do the job what do you think http://www.midlandladders.com/products/Stand_Off_Bracket-292-25.html I can always invest in better in the near future.
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The thing about stand-offs Steve is that they allow you to work in a more comfortable environment but most notably they improve your safety when they are rested on the window sill. You dont just lean the ladder against the wall of the house but use the sill as an anchoring point.
They are indispensible if you decide you want to take on work clearing out or cleaning off gutters, I think youve made the right decision.
;)
Matt
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What do you know Matt ?
You may have been window cleaning longer than me and others on here, but you are definitely not up to date, that’s clear by what you post. Then you get upset about people who are.
Next time you have to clear out a gutter why don’t you try the two devices I mentioned, then come back on here and still say the stand-off is any good!
Troll ;D
Because I KNOW my method works and I dont doubt yours does, but I just choose NOT to run others methods down like you do.
I at least know not to do that (reference to your first sentence)
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The thing about stand-offs Steve is that they allow you to work in a more comfortable environment but most notably they improve your safety when they are rested on the window sill. You dont just lean the ladder against the wall of the house but use the sill as an anchoring point.
They are indispensible if you decide you want to take on work clearing out or cleaning off gutters, I think youve made the right decision.
;)
Matt
Cheers matt will do!
What do you know Matt ?
You may have been window cleaning longer than me and others on here, but you are definitely not up to date, that’s clear by what you post. Then you get upset about people who are.
Next time you have to clear out a gutter why don’t you try the two devices I mentioned, then come back on here and still say the stand-off is any good!
Troll ;D
Hi Ewan,
My budget is dictating things at the moment but as I gain experience from these type of devices I'm certain to invest in better equipment if I feel it needs improving and will make me more efficient. I have looked at Ladda Limpet previously and was impressed I will get a few jobs under my belt and buy one when I get a few quid in.
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I found where ladders are concerned that positioning them is different for different properties. What is safe on one may not be on another.
Take your time as you get to know what works best for the individual properties on your round and don't assume that the next time you visit a property that it will be as safe to do it the same way. More often than not it will be, but sometimes not.
Take greater care for example, if it's wet, as some types of flooring and ledging material become slippery in contact with rubber ladder feet/mitts. Most noteably smooth paving slabs and wooden decking. When new they are fine for the most part but as they age they can become treacherous when wet. Dry lychen and algea become very slippery when wet.
UPVC ledging can also be very slippery when wet or frosty even with mits on the ladders.
Above all, don't let a customer talk you into doing something you feel is unsafe. They usually say something like, "I've done it in the past with no problems" or "My last window cleaner used to do it." I've even had some berate me even calling me a wuss for not getting on a ladder when I don't feel it's safe. As they care little for my safety they usually get dropped.
I've known numerous window cleaners (20+) over the years most of whom have had falls from their ladders at one time or another with injuries that range from a bruised ego to a broken back. All of them would have said they 'thought they were using ladders safely at the time.'
As soon as you can afford to go WFP, do it. I'm sure you won't regret it.
Don't assume anything when it comes to safe use of ladders.
Take great care, and you will enjoy the rewards of window cleaning.
Best Regards.
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I found where ladders are concerned that positioning them is different for different properties. What is safe on one may not be on another.
Take your time as you get to know what works best for the individual properties on your round and don't assume that the next time you visit a property that it will be as safe to do it the same way. More often than not it will be, but sometimes not.
Take greater care for example, if it's wet, as some types of flooring and ledging material become slippery in contact with rubber ladder feet/mitts. Most noteably smooth paving slabs and wooden decking. When new they are fine for the most part but as they age they can become treacherous when wet. Dry lychen and algea become very slippery when wet.
UPVC ledging can also be very slippery when wet or frosty even with mits on the ladders.
Above all, don't let a customer talk you into doing something you feel is unsafe. They usually say something like, "I've done it in the past with no problems" or "My last window cleaner used to do it." I've even had some berate me even calling me a wuss for not getting on a ladder when I don't feel it's safe. As they care little for my safety they usually get dropped.
I've known numerous window cleaners (20+) over the years most of whom have had falls from their ladders at one time or another with injuries that range from a bruised ego to a broken back. All of them would have said they 'thought they were using ladders safely at the time.'
As soon as you can afford to go WFP, do it. I'm sure you won't regret it.
Don't assume anything when it comes to safe use of ladders.
Take great care, and you will enjoy the rewards of window cleaning.
Best Regards.
Hi M & C Cleaning,
Many thanks for the tips and words of wisdom I have taken note.
I would be very keen to go to WFP as soon as finances are available but have to start the Traditional way. I have no objection for either method but if I had my choice it would be WFP but we all have to walk before we can run.
So when I'm back needing help and advice on WFP this forum will be the first to know.
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Steve, don’t undercharge get yourself a couple of guttering jobs that will be enough to pay for the Microlite and Limpet.
That’s what I did, used then the day they arrived and that easily covered the cost of purchase for the Microlite and two set of limpets.
I mostly use them for this type of work its makes the job easier, safer and quicker and it looks and is a lot more professional.
Just a little bit of planning and a few hours work.
Hi Ewan,
Yeah good idea will soon pay for them and have them quite quickly.
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Personally id never use a regular ladder - it needs to be flat against the structure your climbing up to - i prefer A ladders - the rubber block is soft enough not to damage buildings - have pointed out to many a customer where they used normal ladder window cleaners that their sills are damaged or the brickwork/plaster is damaged from the old window cleaner.
With the A frame you can put the ladder at different angles around the window frames brickwork. Or place it in the centre of the frames say on a angled bay window..
Trying to explain how good A frames are for general window cleaning do them no favours, you really have to try them to realise how good they are.
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I seen a post on here a few months back with a guy doing some guttering, he had the stand off at the top and 2 sets of limpets, one set on the floor and the other set resting on a pitched roof.
I tried it and the whole thing was solid as a rock.
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Personally id never use a regular ladder - it needs to be flat against the structure your climbing up to - i prefer A ladders - the rubber block is soft enough not to damage buildings - have pointed out to many a customer where they used normal ladder window cleaners that their sills are damaged or the brickwork/plaster is damaged from the old window cleaner.
With the A frame you can put the ladder at different angles around the window frames brickwork. Or place it in the centre of the frames say on a angled bay window..
Trying to explain how good A frames are for general window cleaning do them no favours, you really have to try them to realise how good they are.
I read all through this thread before I found someone with the right idea.
'A' frame ladders (more properly called 'tree bottomed points') were devised specifically for window cleaning by the ladder manufacturing industry and experienced window cleaners.
They were originally made by a company called Shaftesbury Ladders (unfortuneately long defunct)
The idea is based in simple geometry. Any three points will always lie in the same plane. That means that when you lean a 'pointer' against a wall, both feet and the top will all be in contact with the ground/wall.
That is not true of a parallel (open ender) ladder.
In spite of the H&S's blinkered and ignorant opinion, these are by far the safest ladders to use IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE THEM Unfortuneately the number of people still around who were trained by real window cleaning ladder experts is dwindling rapidly.
Accidents are increasing because untrained people are using inappropriate ladders in unsuitable applications.
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With the A frame you can put the ladder at different angles around the window frames brickwork. Or place it in the centre of the frames say on a angled bay window..
Hi Chris.
With regard to the last sentence -
Are window frames strong enough to place ladders on the centre frames?
Is there any chance that the frame will distort and crack the window?
Can the top of the A frame slip off onto the glass?
I'm just curious - only ever seen one one cleaner with double A frames round here.
Mike
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I'm sorry if this post is causing some argument that was never my intention.
I think the use of a stand off could be the ticket in light of my original question. Now I'm on a tight budget at the moment and have found these that I feel will do the job what do you think http://www.midlandladders.com/products/Stand_Off_Bracket-292-25.html I can always invest in better in the near future.
A stand-off is a very useful tool to have if needed. The only time I've used them is if I was cleaning taller than usual upper floor windows. The ability to have the top of the ladder away from the wall on such windows is a much safer option.
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with regards the the stand off bracket why would you want to use one when cleaning a regular window when you can just rest the ladder with mitts on the window sill?
i have a stand off bracket and use it over porches or some tiles so i dont have to walk on them, i also use it for guttering jobs. its a good peice of kit but pointless on a regular window.
what a traditional window cleaner needs is some ladder mitts, anti slip matt, a stand off bracket and a ladder base stabiliser.
i have all of these and use them very often, the mitts all the time and the ladderbase stabiliser,
got all of mine from www.midlandsladders.com
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With the A frame you can put the ladder at different angles around the window frames brickwork. Or place it in the centre of the frames say on a angled bay window..
Hi Chris.
With regard to the last sentence -
Are window frames strong enough to place ladders on the centre frames?
Is there any chance that the frame will distort and crack the window?
Can the top of the A frame slip off onto the glass?
I'm just curious - only ever seen one one cleaner with double A frames round here.
Mike
No dont place a ladder on the fames which hold the glass. although i have done in some cases - wouldnt recommend it thou.
But on a bay window there is a supporting frames for the structure, this is what you lean it up against the bit between the glass frames. vertically that is..
http://www.kwschoices.co.uk/pictures/security/structural%20integrity.jpg
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with regards the the stand off bracket why would you want to use one when cleaning a regular window when you can just rest the ladder with mitts on the window sill?
Try it and see. All I'll say is it makes work easier, safer, and more lucrative.
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with regards the the stand off bracket why would you want to use one when cleaning a regular window when you can just rest the ladder with mitts on the window sill?
Try it and see. All I'll say is it makes work easier, safer, and more lucrative.
not a chance!
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(http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/images/indexregulations.jpg)
scary aint it seeing the spikes come up to you before you land on them......dont do any ladder work unless properly trained and in my opinion 2nd floor work? forget it mate. 8)
That picture is almost exactly what happened to my father in law a few years back. He fell and impaled himself on some railings,.. the doctor said he was very lucky no vital organs were damaged (The thick layer of fat may have helped cushion the impact!). He fell twice more before finally going WFP,.. each time he was lucky to walk away from it.
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with regards the the stand off bracket why would you want to use one when cleaning a regular window when you can just rest the ladder with mitts on the window sill?
Try it and see. All I'll say is it makes work easier, safer, and more lucrative.
not a chance!
Fair enough.
Nothing worse than an arrogant or closed mind.
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with regards the the stand off bracket why would you want to use one when cleaning a regular window when you can just rest the ladder with mitts on the window sill?
Try it and see. All I'll say is it makes work easier, safer, and more lucrative.
not a chance!
Fair enough.
Nothing worse than an arrogant or closed mind.
whatever you idiot, just because i dont agree with you?
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No not at all, youve taken my comment in completely the wrong context, I wasnt trying to be offensive or anything of that nature.....reflective more like.