Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: james roffey on November 16, 2008, 06:19:59 pm
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Who has experience of the Scorpion machine, and how does it compare to your previous one. what are the pros and cons.
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Hi James, i have a Recoil, which is the earlier version pf the Scorpion.
It has been upgraded, apart from the pump, mine has the 350 psi version, but find it ample.
Previously had a CFR 500 Perfect heat, which did a reasonable job, but found the reliabillity to be some what lacking.
I kept the CFR handtools.
With the Recoil, i find drying is as good or even better than the CFR, have upgraded my hose and wand to 2" bore,
the vacuum is awesome for a portable, compared to all previous machines owned, Alltech, etc
With 2" hose can run at 100' without any loss, read some of Ken Wainwright posts regarding this.
I fill machine with hot water, but happy also to use cold for rinsing, also have an inline heater when req.
So for me there are only pro's and no cons.
I think the cost is reasonable compared to other 2 vac machines, and the newer model Scorpion will be on my next purchase list.
Andrew
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cheers Andrew, i like the spec on the Scorpion cant help being a little concerned about no heat, but my bigger concern is the distance i would have to travel if it broke and i could not fix it, but i dont want to let this make me buy an inferior machine.
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James don't get hung up on the distance between you and your machine's supplier!
The parts are like a big mechano kit, if one goes pop you just unhitch it and stick a new one in. As long as you or a mate are reasonably proficient with a spanner and screwdriver, you shouldn't have any problem keeping it running.
Heat is an issue to me too, but nothing a heat exchanger couldn't fix. The bonus of that is that you get your heat on-demand closer to where you're working, and obviously the cons are it's an extra expense and another piece of kit to set up.
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James
You can get a machine sorted at most c cleaning janatorials or your nearest supplier ie spare vac motor or pump and these can normally be done within the hour while you wait :)
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Like i said i have an inline heater, but is mostly seen in my garage, and only used on the rare occasion.
As for distance, your a lot nearer than me, all parts are with you next day on the odd time you will need a part.
The pump seems great to me, and if i had a vac motor go down, well you will manage perfectly running on 2 vacs till part comes next day.
Un-do a couple of bolts and a few male/female connectors and your away again.
Go for it, you WILL NOT regret it.
Andrew
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James
I went from a CFR 500 Perfect Heat, and it did produce a lot of heat, to the Scorpion, with a external heater, and I can say that the Scorpion is the tops (althought the CFR was very good).
With the right cleaning solution there are many carpet cleaners who use cold water to rinse or hot water from the customers tap.
but lik someone saud, if you want heat you have a external heater and it can be placed nearer to the wand to get the best heat, rather then in a tank some 50' of more away.
Air flow with the 2" hose is excellant.
Like the others have said, even those not using a Scorpion, dont be worried about repairs. The vac motors are available anywhere and can be fitted by anyone with a reasonable knowledge.
The service from Solutions UK is very good. Next day delivery for goods ordered, and loads of telephone help.
Go for it.
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Joe
How muchtra is it for the heater booster ???
Thanks clinton
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Sorry it was meant to say extra :)
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Hi James,
I have used the Scorpion a few times. It is a pretty good piece of kit & you can get more vac power when using the mighty one spotting machine as a booster. The Scorpion is certainly not the best looking porty in the world but the looks of a machine do not make it perform any better or worse. I would much rather see a on-board heater on it though. I used a in-line heater from Solutions sometime ago but it was useless although its a different 1 that they now supply. The Scorpion is quite load probably due to the amount of vacs it has fitted therefore id rather run it from outside customers houses, the water pump is the loudest ive heard on any portable. The Mighty One spotting machine is a handy piece of kit when using as a vac booster however, i dont rate iot very highly as a spotting machine. I cannot belive how loud it is, also i dont like the water pump on it. It pulses the water out rather than giving a constant flow.
Richie.
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All these ad ons to get a proper job, surely a Prowler is a far better option for not much more if you are considering spending scorpian money? ???
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Hi Guys
Jim
I would seriously look at the Alltec Advance, in my view the heater will more than make up for the one less vac and heat is vital in everyday carpet cleaning.
Alltec is only 100 mins from you and the service is good, it's o.k saying the machines are easy to repair but this does depend on your enginering skills and just as importantly what parts you need.
I used machines from Gateshead(Extracta) for years and allthough the service was very good most of the time there were occaisions when parts didn't arrive next day and caused 3-4days down time.To be able to drive up the M11 early and be back working by 12 noon has been an absolute godsend for me.
The Alltec machine I had was very reliable, good solid build and I now have one of their truckmounts which illustrates the benefit of heat perfectly, the performance is awesome.You will have to spend a day with me and I'll show you.
Cheers
Doug
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SolutionsUK are excellent at customer service but the repair bit does depend on how good you are as I have always put motors and pumps in my own portis albeit years ago.
Shaun
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Were looing at around 4 grand for the set up and the extra heater and spotter ???
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The machine is that light why have a spotter?
Shaun
PS Credit crunch discount! everyone is wanting your money ask for a discount, can always say no.
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I would say at £2450 it is a reasonable price, compared to other twin vac machines on market,
i think James could be a new starter ,so would need hosesand wand
Andrew
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I wouldn't say the little machine is necessary tbh. I've never used one in all the years I've run a portable, the only thing I've done is to parallel up the vac lines of two ninjas into one wand, for big jobs and long hose runs.
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Jim,
Have you got a 3 vac Ninja? I have one that I have modified to produce significantly better vacuum levels, similiar to the Scorpion. With the modified Ninja I am running 2 inch hose up to 100 foot with no problems at all. It is quieter than the Scorpion and has tremendous heat from the inline heat exchanger. If you are interested I will take some pics of the mod. It would help to avoid the need to hook up 2 ninjas together I think. By the way I have 2 Scorpions as well so I know exactly what that machine can and can't do.
Nigel
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Were looing at around 4 grand for the set up and the extra heater and spotter ???
Base machine is about £2450, plus hoses and wand.
The external heater is about £475 and the one I have has twin chambers seraratley switched. Very good heat.
The booster has a "4th" vac motor and is only neccesary if working long distances say over 150' and is fitted nearer the wand. Gives an extra 100cfm.
A spotter is a spotter and is a solo machine or can have the booster facility built in for not a lot extra.
Prowler is a very good machine IMO but is over 50% more then the Scorpion.
If pocket is deep enough its nice to have a choice.
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Also think if you are running a prowler you will still need a good portie for the jobs you caint get too :)
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I do believe that the prowler can be uded as a portie,
so all in all a far better machine
Geoff
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Nigel lets see pics of mods on Ninja
Mark
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Jim,
Have you got a 3 vac Ninja? I have one that I have modified to produce significantly better vacuum levels, similiar to the Scorpion. With the modified Ninja I am running 2 inch hose up to 100 foot with no problems at all. It is quieter than the Scorpion and has tremendous heat from the inline heat exchanger. If you are interested I will take some pics of the mod. It would help to avoid the need to hook up 2 ninjas together I think. By the way I have 2 Scorpions as well so I know exactly what that machine can and can't do.
Nigel
My Ninjas are both twin-vac configured in the normal series way. When I hook the up together with a Y junction, I'm doubling the airflow but keeping the same lift (in theory, on paper of course)
Are you saying you've modified one machine to run three vac motors, in parallel rather than series?
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Think he runs them parallel but its going to drain a lot of amps from the mains box ???
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That's what I was thinking. My twin-cable machine is already using up most of the permissible current on each cable, so how do you get the extra vac in??? That's one of the reasons why the scorpion doesn't have a heater. The only way I could think of doing 3 vac motors, pump, cooling fan and heater all in one machine with 2 cables is to have one cable to operate either the heater or the extra vac, but not both at the same time.
Anyway, we're just guessing here :D
Hopefully Nigel will get back into the discussion and tell us how he's done it :)
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Hi,
Here is a pic of my modified Ninja.
First of all I am using 3 x cables which I have never found to be a problem. The Ninja is a standard Ninja with 2 x 3 stage vacs in series and an internal heat exchanger. In a standard setup the 3rd vac would also be in series. However this seemed to provide little additional suction or air flow. I decided to experiment by plumbing the 3rd vac directly into the waste tank. The difference in suction and airflow is quite significant. Its vacuum performance is much nearer to the Scorpion now and I am able to run up to 100 foot of 2 inch hose. I think I especially notice it because I am using 2 inch vac hose and a 2 inch wand.
Please note I do not suggest anybody does this mod at the moment. I have spoken to Derek Ashby and at some point soon we are going to redo the mod with proper shut off valves etc to make a more professional job. I was willing to cut holes in my Ninja and experiment at my cost because I knew there was more performance there to be had. If it had gone wrong it could have cost alot of money in damaged vac motors and new waste tank lids. However I have been running it for 4 weeks now and I have not yet experienced any problems.
If I want to run it as a standard 2 vac machine I have a cap to close off the port in the waste tank lid.
I prefer this set up to my Scorpion because it is much quieter and I always use it indoors because I have a Blueline Thermalwave as well. I also find the Ninja to be better built and I like having the internal heat exchanger.
Maybe Ashby's will start to make a Ninja with 2 inch ports with this mod as standard. If it lasts the test of time it makes a fantastic versatile portable machine.
Nigel
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Nigel
Looks like a dif set up as i thought it was.
How does that waste tank hold up with that direct extra vac being plumbed in?
Is derek going to bring some sort of proto type out?
Cheers clinton
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Very interesting Nigel!
If I remember right, the Lamb 5.7" motors used in ninjas develop approx 7.5" Hg of lift and move roughly 109 cfm
There's something I can't get my head around about this mod - I can't help thinking it's a little lop-sided set up like this. You have 15" Hg pulling from the 2 in-series motors inside the machine, and 7.5" through the booster unit.
Theoretically, on paper, you've altered your setup from moving 109cfm up to 218cfm. I can't decide whether your vacuum lift would remain at 15" or if it would somehow end up half way between the two, i.e. at 11.25"
What I'm thinking, is the stronger pair of motors trying to steal air from the weaker motor set up all on its lonesome back there?
I certainly see where you're coming from with the mod though (I think Stu Clark up in the north east has done this to his ninja too), it's a much better way of using what's there. 3 vac motors in a line seems pretty pointless to me, all that suck but not much movement (fnar fnar :p)
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Clinton,
The waste tank seems to be holding up fine. It was not one of my concerns. I don't think Ashby's have any immediate plans to do anything. They may change their minds once they feel the performance (assuming mine doesn't fall to pieces ;D)
Jim,
It certainly feels like the cfm's have doubled.
I was concerned about the lopsidedness maybe putting excessive strain on the 3rd vac motor. Derek Ashby didn't seem to think it would be a problem. Only time will tell. My view was that if it proved fatal I would replace the vac motor and replace the waste tank lid and carry on my hunt for the perfect portable.
Nigel
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Nigel
Where did the third vac go to begin with as standard??
Ive a Ninja but was considering upgrading to the Scorpian for the extra vac. I prefer the vacs in parallel from my days with an Alltec machine so this interests me a lot. Also i want to use 2inch hose and my 14inch wand with the portable too.
I thought the Scorpain had a silencer system?? But the Ninja is so quiet i think my Sebo is noiser.
thanks
Mark
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Mark
The Scorpion silencers are an option.
Hoever, as the machine will normally be parked outside the house..... applying the truckmounters theory that noise is good (attracts the neighbours attention) then whats wrong with the Scorpion being noisey?
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Mark,
The third vac is usually attached to the exhaust port of the first two vacs. This is at the rear of the machine. This would mean that all three vacs are pulling through each other. This seems to give plenty of lift but limited airflow. By plumbing the third vac directly into the waste tank the airflow is given a significant boost. No problems using 2 inch hose and wands.
Nigel
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Full marks for ingenuity Mark. I hope it continues to work without problems.
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Joe,
It is different for me as I only use my portables indoors. I have a Thermalwave TM for jobs with parking. I tend to use my portables on apartment jobs where the machine is in the hall or outside the door in common parts. If you have ever heard the noise of a Scorpion on a marble floor you would understand. You tend to attract the sort of attention that you would not want :o
If your work means the Scorpion can stay outside I don't think there is a problem with the noise.
Nigel
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Mark
The Scorpion silencers are an option.
Hoever, as the machine will normally be parked outside the house..... applying the truckmounters theory that noise is good (attracts the neighbours attention) then whats wrong with the Scorpion being noisey?
Don't know about Scorpion Joe but my Recoil is way noisier than any TM Ive heard :(
Looks good Nigel how heavy is the Ninja compared to Scorpion?
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Joe
I use a portable for the likes of nursing homes, offices and apartments where the Tm cant get access and the portable would be inside so noise is an issue.
This weekend Im cleaning only 50sqm 300ft from the TM in a hotel so the Ninja mods that Nigel has done would be great.
I hate using the Ninja as it feels so powerless compared to the TM and only ever use 25ft of hose so more vac power would be great.
I do however have the mitey one booster/portable so could use this too.
Mark
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Hi Joe,
Are you having a senior moment ???
Nigel "the ingenious one" ;D
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Mark,
It is slightly heavier - but I lift it on and off the back of my transit. If you have a van with a low rear floor it would be easy. Mine did come with some wheels attached to the handle for loading it on and off the van. I took them off because my transit floor is too high and I have a great big rear step. ::)
Nigel
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Mark
The Scorpion silencers are an option.
Hoever, as the machine will normally be parked outside the house..... applying the truckmounters theory that noise is good (attracts the neighbours attention) then whats wrong with the Scorpion being noisey?
Don't know about Scorpion Joe but my Recoil is way noisier than any TM Ive heard :(
Looks good Nigel how heavy is the Ninja compared to Scorpion?
The Scorpion is quieter then the Recoil I am led to believe.
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Hi Guys
Joe, I thought you had bought Truckmount.
Cheers
Doug
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I have Doug, and use it majority of the time.
but most TMers will have a portable for those jobs difficult access, or need to work behind closed doors ie nursing homes etc, and for times the TM machine is not working waiting a part.
What better machine to have as a backup then the Scorpion. :)
Hope yours is going well Doug, are you getting used to it now?
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Hi Joe
Yes awesome power, the combination of heat, vacuum and water pressure puts it in a different league to any porty but then so does the price!
I have never liked portys without heaters as I believe heat is more important than vacuum or pressure.
I know some people like to say that hot water doesn't make any difference but my chemistry background and experience lead me firmly to the opposite conclusion.
We all know that a porty can only receive so much power which must be split between the Vacs, pump and heater, I jist prefer mine to use some of that power to heat the water !
Cheers
Doug
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Doug what about the new washing machine detergent that cleans at 15 degrees?
Oh and im sure my washing machine rinses cold!
Cheers Goron
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Doug what about the new washing machine detergent that cleans at 15 degrees?
Oh and im sure my washing machine rinses cold!
Cheers Goron
It's an undeniabl fact that.
Chemical reactions happen quicker with heat. ( precisely twice as quick with every 10 degree rise in temperature. )
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same old debate about to start here :)
Goron, I would have thought you should know that hot is better!!!
Now I wonder why they manufacture washing machines with heat :P just think of all the electric the consumer would be saving,......... oh and we could all save the planet in the process ;)
So come on Hotpoint, Zanussi, phillips Bosch and all the others lets have a cold only machine, I wont hold my breath, they would soon stop selling.
geoff
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same old debate about to start here :)
geoff
;D
I'm going for my tea.
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joe
sure you dont want to make more room in your vehicle and pass on your scorpion ;)
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take the carpets up stick them in a machine totally submerse them in cleaning solution, and let them rubble around for 25mins, then you will have a comparison with a washing machine, OK washing machines can clean @ 15degrees but we are not sticking a carpet in a washing machine so this comparison is ridiculous ::)
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I borrowed a cold water TM last Xmas from Mike, jobs did take longer and I had to use heavier prespray applications.
Shaun
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I built myself a copy of this,
www.steam-brite.com/store/universal-vacuum-booster-p-4832.html
The idea was if i require a lot more air movement, then i can put my version on
in about 30 Sec's, also if i lose a motor, then i can use this to save any down time.
Also if i wish i can have 2 x 3 Stage, as either series or parallel, and the vacuum
does not rise, so the tanks on any machine are actually under less stress.
With this running my wonderwand frequently locks on the carpet, and the drying
is incredible.
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It's an undeniabl fact that.
Chemical reactions happen quicker with heat. ( precisely twice as quick with every 10 degree rise in temperature. )
So put hot water in your sprayer, by the time most of are rinsing the chemical reaction will be over!
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I think i shall have to get a thermometer,
I always try and mix my pre spray with hot water from my machine , problem is some chems dont allow the mixture at too higher a temp,
geoff
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Nevil
Yes you are absolutely right so put the heat where it is needed in the prespray, what are you trying to increase the chemical reactivity of by heating your rinse water unless of course you are running your detergent through your machine!
Geoff
I have to use heat i have no choice, I have removed the first of my three heat exchangers though. You may remember some time ago when the scorpion first came out i used it to clean my local brewers fayre, i didn't use cold water but did only use warm water from the tap as running both taps fills buckets faster! The results were as good as i could get with the tm.
Nobody has said that you can't use these products with heat they have just said you don't have too. If you have heat use it!
Cheers Goron
Ps. Geoff like i said my washing machine uses heat when it will make a difference and the rinse is cold. It is made by one of the largest american manufacturers
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heat is'nt necessary to clean effectively, i find most portable can't deliver the heat to the carpet anyhow. Given the choice I would chose agitation over heat.
but......... prepare yourselves! I going to use a naughty word.......... SPEED!!!
if you've got all the time in the world and you want to vac-prespray-dwell -scrub- extract you can get a great result but you will take sometimes 3 times as long to get that great result.
you want to work effectively ( quickly) then heat can sometimes bypass the prespray/dwell/scrub element you can get a great result with just high flow & heat direct to the carpet
I can just extract a carpet with my high heat T/M and get an amazing result but in less than half the time needed to get the same result with a portable ( which needs all the pie to clean)
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Hi all,
I have a Scorpion which I'm very happy with but if I need heat there is drop hoses from the solution tank that I put into the solution tank of my Aqua 40 with a 3kw heater built into it.
This way I don't lose the power of the Scorpion but have heat when needed. The Aqua 40 is my back-up machine.
I spoke to Chris at Alltec a few weeks back and as a special order which has been tested,you can have an Advance machine with 3 x3stage 5.7vacs in parallel, 600psi pump,and 3kw internal heater, 2" port for about £2600 with the vat. This is machine only.
Regards Rob
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What about the amps drawn from the box ???
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Plug in at Kitchen most are on 30amp ring.
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Hi Guys
It's not really a debate about hot being better than cold, it's scientific fact.
Mike is right of course with his speed comparison, if you want to put lots of energy into a carpet by a lot of agiatation, then the rinsing process will be easier and the water temp less critical, but if you just want to get on and clean the carpet , use heat.
Cheers
Doug
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I appear to have opened a "can of worms" here, everyone saying something different, BUT if i was washing my dirty hands i think warm water would be more affective at rinsing them off, surely thats simple logic! but i am not ruling the Scorpion out because a lot of people swear by it.
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Nick at solution kindly gave me a demo of the Scorpian a while ago. It's a good machine for sure. If I was in the market for a porty it's what I'd go for every time. Lots of suck and a good pump. The large capacity of the tanks is another important feature. You don't want to be filling /emptying anymore than you need to. I personally would want to use it with a heater. But I'm not knocking folks who don't do so.
As has been said already, superb results can be acheived with cold water rinsing. But if you choose this route you will not be able to skip the aggitation step of the cleaning process. So your rate of work will not be as fast as it could be. Also you will need a good quality aggitation device.
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Nevil
Yes you are absolutely right so put the heat where it is needed in the prespray, what are you trying to increase the chemical reactivity of by heating your rinse water unless of course you are running your detergent through your machine!
Geoff
I have to use heat i have no choice, I have removed the first of my three heat exchangers though. You may remember some time ago when the scorpion first came out i used it to clean my local brewers fayre, i didn't use cold water but did only use warm water from the tap as running both taps fills buckets faster! The results were as good as i could get with the tm.
Nobody has said that you can't use these products with heat they have just said you don't have too. If you have heat use it!
Cheers Goron
Ps. Geoff like i said my washing machine uses heat when it will make a difference and the rinse is cold. It is made by one of the largest american manufacturers
Hot water in prespray doesn't do it for me. Particles of atomized liquid are bound to be cold when hitting the carpet. You could always pour it on. :o( might need to modify this proceedure for BWs )
I agree that much of the reaction takes place during dwell time. But some of it must also take place during flushing. It simply must. How else can the differance in performance be explained.
Removed heat X. Guess that explains why the big hotels down your way are calling me now. ;D
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AJB you mentioned you built a version of the steam-brite in your opinion is it worth me getting one from them and placing it on top of my powerflite as your picture show or is it too much suction that would hinder rather than help sometimes.Regards Alan Turner(swindon)The extra power should help when doing alot of these new 3 storey new builds
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The suction actually drops slightly, but the CFM doubles.
On town houses it makes a big difference, or large areas
where 2 or 3 hoses can be used, without losing any performance.
I've found not using my Hide a Hoses can make a big difference too.
I'm toying with the idea of a 2 x 3 stage booster, to keep the high
vacuum and also double cfm's.
Having said all this i very rarely use my booster.
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Thanks for that i will give it some serious consideration and discuss it with the guy that supplied it to me about 2 years ago.Regards Alan
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Hi
Bit of an old post but. Just wondering if Nigel or anyone else is still using this modification to the ninja and how is it working?
Rob