Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: ftp on October 10, 2008, 05:39:27 pm

Title: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: ftp on October 10, 2008, 05:39:27 pm
Well, got it all together at last and connected up to my Superlight tubes for a trial run. First noticeable thing is the weight of the tubing on the top section along with the clamp to give it the u bend. I only fitted some 38mm hose and not the heavyweight 51mm to start with. The next problem with using modular poles is that they tend to spin. Hoovered out my gutter and found that if you get the pipe flush to the bottom of the gutter it sucks on to it like a lamprey. I only used the open pipe so really i need to make some tools up to fit different gutters. I also want to fit the tools that come with the vac for high inside cleaning. Quite impressed so far, although it's a lot of money for what it is, but still far cheaper than buying the proper kit.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: Kevin R on October 10, 2008, 06:20:44 pm
it's a lot of money for what it is, but still far cheaper than buying the proper kit.

Will it be in the long run? - only time will tell - do keep us informed  ;)
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: ftp on October 10, 2008, 06:27:15 pm
Will do.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: Kevin R on October 10, 2008, 06:28:46 pm
I am very interested in how the SL2 sections perform. Is there any chance you could keep a record and log the hours they work?
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: ftp on October 10, 2008, 06:36:45 pm
I'll try and give a fair review - i am a Gardiner worshipper you know  ;) but even some of their products aren't perfect. Kev, are those rotating cuffs on the end of your u bend? I will need to source a couple so i can fit the normal tools i think.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: Kevin R on October 10, 2008, 06:42:30 pm
I'll try and give a fair review - i am a Gardiner worshipper you know  ;) but even some of their products aren't perfect. Kev, are those rotating cuffs on the end of your u bend? I will need to source a couple so i can fit the normal tools i think.

For the cuffs try  carpet cleaning supplers - try Craftex or someone similar. They are not rotating on mine as I tend to use the tool at a set angle but you can get them. The fixed cuffs are about £12 each.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: jeff1 on October 10, 2008, 06:59:27 pm
Try and put some piccy's up ftp
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: ftp on October 10, 2008, 07:09:22 pm
Will do, but it's the same as Mr H's - it's his idea not mine. Parts sourced by a Cornish supplier. Will post some pics when/if it brings money in.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: matt on October 10, 2008, 07:10:36 pm
I'll try and give a fair review - i am a Gardiner worshipper you know  ;) but even some of their products aren't perfect. Kev, are those rotating cuffs on the end of your u bend? I will need to source a couple so i can fit the normal tools i think.

we will expect a full guide done by you know, you know the friendly bunch over at the DIY WFP site would like it ( <------- E.mail for a link to the DIY site ;))

oh and if you want a fair review, i will do it for you, you know i will judge your ramshackle bodged dustbuster and pipe  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: ftp on October 10, 2008, 07:33:37 pm
The next project might be how to bolt seventy kilos of generator into a trailer. Looks more and more like Ghostbusters every day.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: jeff1 on October 10, 2008, 08:07:40 pm
The next project might be how to bolt seventy kilos of generator into a trailer. Looks more and more like Ghostbusters every day.
Same way as you would bolt a tank into a van.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: Mr H on October 10, 2008, 10:24:49 pm
The next project might be how to bolt seventy kilos of generator into a trailer. Looks more and more like Ghostbusters every day.

Save space and stop exhaust fumes from getting in the van by fitting the generator to the roof rack..!!!! Its just an idea..... lol

Regards
Mr H

Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: ftp on October 11, 2008, 04:47:18 pm
Knocked up some nozzles this morning from a length of 38mm tubing from B&Q - £2.50
Easy to heat and squash for narrow gaps. Popped round my mums for a trial (her gutters haven't been done for twenty years. Within five minutes a guy over the road wants his done. Easy job, had no problems they were well impressed with the cctv and monitor pictures. Trouble was i was picking up work that belongs to windowcleaners known to me so didn't look for more work. The system seems easy enough to use i just rested my pole against the gutter and worked my way along so no lifting either. Need to cover the top section with something to stop it rubbing on the gutter edge but so far so good. Extension cable heats up a fair bit and i need to uprate the fuse probably. I think everything will get battered and scratched pretty rapidly with use.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: jeff1 on October 11, 2008, 04:52:31 pm
Knocked up some nozzles this morning from a length of 38mm tubing from B&Q - £2.50
Easy to heat and squash for narrow gaps. Popped round my mums for a trial (her gutters haven't been done for twenty years. Within five minutes a guy over the road wants his done. Easy job, had no problems they were well impressed with the cctv and monitor pictures. Trouble was i was picking up work that belongs to windowcleaners known to me so didn't look for more work. The system seems easy enough to use i just rested my pole against the gutter and worked my way along so no lifting either. Need to cover the top section with something to stop it rubbing on the gutter edge but so far so good. Exstension cable heats up a fair bit and i need to uprate the fuse probably. I think everything will get battered and scratched pretty rapidly with use.
Get those pictures on. ;)
You can't uprate a fuse or if the cable gets to hot it will just burst into flames,you can uprate the cable.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: Chris Galloway on October 11, 2008, 04:56:07 pm
Knocked up some nozzles this morning from a length of 38mm tubing from B&Q - £2.50
Easy to heat and squash for narrow gaps. Popped round my mums for a trial (her gutters haven't been done for twenty years. Within five minutes a guy over the road wants his done. Easy job, had no problems they were well impressed with the cctv and monitor pictures. Trouble was i was picking up work that belongs to windowcleaners known to me so didn't look for more work. The system seems easy enough to use i just rested my pole against the gutter and worked my way along so no lifting either. Need to cover the top section with something to stop it rubbing on the gutter edge but so far so good. Exstension cable heats up a fair bit and i need to uprate the fuse probably. I think everything will get battered and scratched pretty rapidly with use.
Get those pictures on. ;)
You can't uprate a fuse or if the cable gets to hot it will just burst into flames,you can uprate the cable.

weve been thru this b4, you need the artic cable with the 16amp plugs and the rcd :P But as you said it was a trial run - dont do it on custys houses without running the correct cables, you will be fu**ed if anything happens!
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: ftp on October 11, 2008, 04:59:57 pm
Artic cable with rcd plug on the end but it's a 13amp one.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: ftp on October 11, 2008, 05:08:10 pm
Forgot to say you know when your sucking up moisture because the pole gets cold.
I also thought that gutter cleaning is wide open for taking the pee out of customers. They ask for a clean but obviously haven't been up a ladder to take a look. I knew the gutter was pretty clear by the feel and sound of the vacuum. If they were out i would have finished one side in about four minutes i had to faff around pretending to suck the rubbish out because they were downstairs watching. Luckily a bit around the garage was clogged so i could show them the contents of the vac. You could of course start the job with a partially filled vac.
Same applies for ladder cleaners too of course.
I think i could make more money faster doing this than windowcleaning provided the demand is there.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: dmlservices on October 11, 2008, 05:16:19 pm
i charge a min price for gutter work, even if clear you still have to inspect gutter either with camera, or of a ladder, the min price covers this ,then add on for extra work involved.


daz
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: jeff1 on October 11, 2008, 05:17:18 pm
What rateing is your RCD?
Just as a guide:- 2.5 mm-20 amps Up to 4800 Watts so your cable provided its 2.5 is fine.

Electrical cables are intended to become warm in operation; heat is generated whenever a current flows in anything, and this is perfectly normal. However, the level of heat generated by electrical cables is only safe when it is kept within reasonable limits. Standard PVC-insulated cables are designed to run at temperatures up to 70 degrees Celsius; beyond this there is a risk of damage.

In practice, over-currents can be grouped into two types.


Overload
An overload occurs when a current flows that is somewhat too high (usually 50% to 100% too high) for the system. Overloads don't normally cause immediate, catastrophic damage. Instead, the likelihood of damage increases gradually as the duration of the overload increases. If the fault is not resolved, cables will overheat and melt, exposing bare conductors. The heat generated may be sufficient to cause a fire.
In a domestic setting, overloads usually result from using too many appliances at the same time, or plugging a heavy-duty appliance into a supply that isn't strong enough for it. An example of the latter is connecting an electric shower to a standard 13-amp plug, and plugging it into a socket
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: ftp on October 11, 2008, 05:26:20 pm
Glad you,re here Jeff,  :o The rcd is the kind B&Q sell and supply on their extension cables (obviously not 2.5mm like the Artic cable). It has a 13A fuse. Do i need something beefier?
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: jeff1 on October 11, 2008, 05:40:27 pm
If it was mine I would bin the B&Q cable and make one up using your artic cable, if you add your own socket then it must be waterproof(IP56)
What is the rateing of the RCD?

Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: jeff1 on October 11, 2008, 05:54:52 pm
Sorry forgot to add it should be rated at 16amp minimum.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: ftp on October 11, 2008, 06:00:14 pm
Right i have Actic extension cable from vac with those round blue connectors culminating in an rcd plug 30ma with 13a fuse. Is there another kind of rcd plug i should be using?
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: jeff1 on October 11, 2008, 06:14:10 pm
It will do but not ideal, to be very honest with you, all the suppliers on here should get a grip of the vacs they should give everyone who buys one the correct advice and shouldn't be selling 240v for external work, I notice a few of them do sell 110v and these are the ones that should be purchased for external work using a 110v transfomer.

Its expensive to cover yourself correctly using 240v here is a link to the type of protection you should be using if your using 240v. Like I say its not cheap.

www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CS56C313slash2slash4EL.html?source=adwords&kw=rcd%2013a%20socket&gclid=CLPKrtnUn5YCFQyvQwodTAc57Q
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: Glyn H on October 11, 2008, 06:30:35 pm
Quote
all the suppliers on here should get a grip of the vacs they should give everyone who buys one the correct advice and shouldn't be selling 240v for external work

Perhaps manufacturers of  the  litrally millions of 240 volt pressure washers  in the UK (Eg. Karcher, Alto etc.etc) shouldnt be selling them either !
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: jeff1 on October 11, 2008, 06:33:54 pm
Here we go again Glyn
I'm talking for professional use not domestic use. ::)
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: Glyn H on October 11, 2008, 08:39:39 pm
Jeff
You make wide sweeping statements without  considering the facts.

Do you not consider the following small example of a much larger list to be professional ?
Large motor repair garages,fleet transport depots, commercial vehicle test centres, car dealers,mobile car valeters,  professional hand car wash,skip hire companies, plant hire companies, reclaimation companies etc at all these establishments  you will see both large electrical powered steam cleaners, cold pressure washers and vacumm cleaners being used in the open air.

As you havent actually seen our guttervac you will not have the benifit of noting that the units switches are protected by sealed waterproof housings.
 


Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: jeff1 on October 11, 2008, 09:38:12 pm
Jeff
You make wide sweeping statements without  considering the facts.

Do you not consider the following small example of a much larger list to be professional ?
Large motor repair garages,fleet transport depots, commercial vehicle test centres, car dealers,mobile car valeters,  professional hand car wash,skip hire companies, plant hire companies, reclaimation companies etc at all these establishments  you will see both large electrical powered steam cleaners, cold pressure washers and vacumm cleaners being used in the open air.

As you havent actually seen our guttervac you will not have the benifit of noting that the units switches are protected by sealed waterproof housings.
 



There is no law to state that 240v can't be used outside, not even H&S have the power to force anyone to use 110v equipment.

Firstly I would like to point out that 110v center tapped or below voltage power tools are not a legal requirement even on construction sites; The use of 110v center tapped and below equipment is an ACoP and best practice. The HSE will frown upon higher voltage powered tools being used, but cannot dictate the use of 110v due to EU directives.(if the UK HSE enforce the use of 110v they are in direct breach of those directives and the philosophy of an open market within Europe).

The HSE expects support from industry on the best practice of using 110v and below powered tools as they have been proven not to kill anyone who use them, this requirement (the use of 110v center tapped or below powered tools) should be identified within your company H&S policy and the Construction Phase HSE Plan,

240v and greater electrical v power and tools can be used on site, however strict control measures are required; the use of armoured cabling, shortest lead lengths as possible, RCB's/RCD's within the line, earthing, weather proofing, stringent inspections and useage, etc.. must be in place prior to use (ACoPs are available from the HSE).

110v center tapped power tools are more sturdier and have been designed and manufactured for construction, furthermore the use of these power tools will reduce loss or theft of their 240v counterparts, due to the fact you cannot use 110v at home.

Furthermore an electrical appliance register must be formed and developed to enter the electrical equipment/tools details and records of inspections on the site, all appliances must be tagged and Portable Appliance Tested (PAT) every 3 months unless specified as low risk; such as fax machines, kettles, photo copiers, etc.

Some electrical powered tools that are greater than 110v being generally used on construction sites; electrical hoists, Sky climbers, overhead gantry's, electrical welding equipment, specialist core drilling,radiography, etc.....

Going onto a site with 240v and then being thrown off by the site agent is not because its H&S Policy but in direct support of the directive and them being responsible companies.

As with most UK legislation they are Risk Assessment based.

Apart from your switches being sealed waterproof housings I am also aware that omnivac 240v systems are double insulated for safety and that omnivac take safety very seriously, I don't own an omnivac but I do my homework, maybe one day I will get the chance to see one?

What I am trying to ask suppliers is? If they could just let any buyer of 240v equipment aware of what they need to safely run your system outside, your vac is safe but is the extensions and trips (Rcd's) the end user adds (if at all) are safe.

Just imagine this sinario
A window cleaner or one of his customers are electrocuted while using your equipment, news papers aren't going to say that the vac was safe it was his extension lead that was faulty, they want the full glory and a picture of your vac would make good capturing headlines, and of course H&S will want to investigate.

If you were to make all your customers aware of the dangers of using under rated cables, plugs and sockets to extend your equipment, then you as a responsible supplier in my mind would deserve a big pat on the back.

You don't need to be aware of electrical regs to give this info but good advice for there safety is excellent advice and of course it doesn't add any extra costs to your product, but you could add the correct product as extra's for them to purchase.

Like I've said to you before, I have never and never will run your systems down because they are good products, well made, and well manufactured.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: Glyn H on October 11, 2008, 09:55:05 pm
Hi Jeff
We both seem to jump to the wrong conclusions when we post to one another!
I will consider my replies to your posts more carfully in future and try to take the spirit of what you are saying on board.

We do tell prospective purchasers the pros and cons of 110 and 240 volt systems and in most cases advise the choice of a  110 volt system.
However some of the smaller businesses do not choose this option because added expense is required in the form of a powerfull generator.
 
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: jeff1 on October 11, 2008, 10:17:53 pm
Hi Glyn  ;D
I never try to knock a good product or a good company and your company and products in my mind are both well engineered for robustness and reliability and Yes I can tell even though I don't own a product of yours, this is not only from comments on the forums about them but I do take time to read specs that are posted on your web-site.

Its good to see you advise on the pro's and cons of both systems but either system will require a good generator? But again good advice is priceless, it brings your customers back.

For years I had the opportunity to use both 240v and 110v tools and from my own experience 110v tools or systems are build more robust than 240v systems, a good selling point.
A 110v transformer is rated at around 3Kv so well within the specs of your systems.
Again if a customer of yours was to use a 110v vac or a 240v vac and plugged into a customers mains, they would still need some good sound professional advice, in the form of correct extensions plugs and sockets, this in the form of a little leaflet or booklet would be very helpful from your company.

Thanks for listening. ;)
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: ftp on October 12, 2008, 08:30:14 am
Thanks for your advice Jeff, you've helped me out several times.  ;)
I think Glyn is very intent on protecting his product and i don't blame him, so tends to get a bit fired up now and again. The problem of course is that the Omnivac although a great idea can so easily be copied with readily available products that are nearly identical. I would think some pole suppliers must have been a bit worried when Harris poles were discovered, when people made their own Bentley brushes etc. The whole trade is so basic that nearly everything has been adapted from other areas - even ro units were around before wfp.
 Of course all the diy products although good are unlikely to match the proper ones for performance or looks but they are never far behind.
Title: Re: DIY Vac first trial today
Post by: jeff1 on October 12, 2008, 12:32:50 pm
Your more than welcome, that's what were all here for.

If I was glyn I would probably do the same about protecting my products, an awful lot of money has been spent by his company to produce good products (and they are good Glyn )

I know this myself as many years ago an idea and design of my own that was published in an electronics magazine, can now be freely purchased at Halfords. (I was young and Stupid, now I'm old and stupid )

Some guy's fail to realise that the vast amount of time spent on one idea, can actually run into years, ok so that's lost money, but when it comes to putting an idea into design and production, tooling up etc, then the costs can mount into many thousands of pounds.

Take Alex gardiner for instance, he's getting the same treatment over the price of his gutter scoop? But the guy's on here who know good quality when they see it, have paid good money for a good product,The time he spent getting the design sorted with the fabricators and of course its not just time he spent but lots of money along the way, so that money has to be recouped, its good quality and good materials, just the same as glyn's products, so the cost will reflect this.

Were the first lot to come on and smash a supplier down for supplying us with crap or an inadequate product, I've seen it so many times on here.

Both Glyn and Alex have good names on all the forums, neither one of them, are here for the fast buck, there here for the long haul, they see us moaning about jobs we do, saying I wish a supplier would take this on board and produce so and so for us?

Now if you wanted to, I could go in my workshop and knock you one up in no time at half the price but its what we call in the trade as a bodge up, so god knows how long it will last, if you want it to last, then buy your product from Glyn or Alex but it will cost you more because they have the time and money to invest and they go to professionals to have it produced for us.

Sorry to go on but that's that's my twopence worth.