Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: derek west on October 03, 2008, 12:22:48 am
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thinking of giving my mate a job.
this will include helping me out on big jobs and the rest of the time leafletting which i will also help him with when we're slack.
any thoughts guys, in theory it seems a good idea,
pro's are
i get lots of leaflets delivered week in week out. around 4000 to 6000 depending on if i help out. (and lets face it, its not cheap to have them delivered anyhow)
big jobs will take half the time if not even less time and i can charge the same.
i'm working with someone who i trust and know is a hard worker.
cons are
i have to pay him
i have to do all that paye bowlocks.
your views please gentlemen. good or bad, even both barrells if ya like.
derek
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Tough one as you haven't been going very long.
Big part of me thinks, if you can afford it then give it a go. You know you will get the leaflets out and so he will or should pay for himself and also you get a hand on the jobs.
If it works out it looks like the quickest way to get 2 vans on the road.
Delivering leaflets is boring and hard work, finding someone to do this is hard enough.
As he is your mate why don't you try it for a month or two, if he is presentable and got the confidence then a bit of door knocking as well.
If he is in a well paid job at the moment he would be mad to give it up, but if he has had enough or is not up to much at the moment it could be a good opportunity for both of you.
With this sort of work he could even be paying for himself in a matter of weeks so if you pay him monthly it could work out very well.
On paper I expect the idea looks fantastic, guess you will only find out if you give it a go.
Good Luck
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cheers for that comment gary.
he's just been made redundant. he worked for a maintenance company, i did an extraction job for them at a blockbuster thanks to him.
he's very presentable so with a bit of training to give him confidence he'd probably get the hang of door knocking and possibly pricing a job while he's there, after all its not rocket science.
the more i think about it the more i feel like going for it. ive got the money at the mo so why not.
not sure about 2 tm's though, you can do a hell of a lot of work with 1 tm with a 2 man team, easily £600 a day, he helped me do a big job last month, £300 in 6 hours with a £50 tip and it was his first time so i had to show him the ropes, and that included a problem room which took ages, (cat hairs).
can't sleep thinking about this hence the 3 oclock post. i'm back off to bed to try again. look forward to some other comments tommorrow, (i mean today)
derek
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Doubling your manpower doesn't double your productivity, if anything it just makes your day less tiring. Presume it will knock cleaning times down to no less than 70% of what they are at the moment. Your 6 hour job would probably only have taken you 8 on your own, but you'd have felt twice as knackered afterwards!
Two vans on the road doubles productivity, IF you have enough work to keep them running. You'd be wise to steer clear of that for a good time yet!
Of course pricing a job isn't rocket science, but selling it to the customer is a different matter altogether. Some people are born with the gift, others will struggle till the day they die. If people find it easy to like him then you're on the right track.
Before doing anything else, take him out leafleting and see if he dies from the drudgery of it.
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Easiest thing in the world to take somebody on and then get tied in knots if it goes pear shaped and proper paperwork/contracts are not in place. Insurance and accountancy costs go up as well.
But you have the advantage that your business will continue if you are ill/on holiday as well as Jim saying about getting through the day's work more quickly and being less tired. So look at it as an investment and an improvement in the quality of your life rather than a cost on a balance sheet.
You also need to at least consider what you will do if he lets you down when you are geared up for a big two man job, or of him trying to do foreigners, or even, once trained setting up in competition with you.
THe big downside is you need to pay him even if there is no work although there are contracts you can get (Forum for Private Business can help) where you only pay him for the hours worked. SO if you have no work for him or if he wants to do his own thing one day he get s paid nothing.
Certainly agree with Jim that working together than two vans is a better way forward to start with as your overheads will go up and your standard of living will go down until he starts to pay for himself with more work being achieved. Two vans can also mean it's more difficult to monitor to ensure nobody is dipping their hands into the takings as I assume most cc's get paid (cheques and cash) as they are leaving a job and not invoicing all domestic jobs at a later date. (I've been thinking for some time about this question and wondered how those cc's who do employ staff monitor this.)
Finally do think about how your relationship with your mate may change once you move into employer/employee roles.
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jim
ive done a few jobs with my mate and we do it more than twice as quick so i'll have to disagree with ya there.
he hoovers the first room straight away while i'm setting up, then he pre sprays while i'm getting up to temp, then i extract while he hoovers and presprays the other rooms, then when hes done that he edges while i finish extracing and then i put away. job done.
the only way we dont get an advantage over a 2 truck set up is travelling.
good point about the pricing though, it is a knack selling it to the custy. fingers crossed he's got it.
he's out leafletting as i type. gonna join him at 2pm and see how many we can do in 2 hours togethher.
derek
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Hi derek
How did you get on with your leaflets how many did you get out ???
Cheers clinton
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I've done the exact same thing I, gave a job to my mate ( Craig) who I intended to help me set up then go out leafleting.
it worked well, we did an hours leafleting at the start of the day and did another hour in any spaces between jobs.
but a couple problems did arise;
1) you no longer have the freedom you had when you were by yourself, I used to do a few odd-jobs during the day or have a lazy lunch but with Craig I found couldn't just stop I had to consider what he would do while i was doing my own stuff, I felt mean saying.... "you go leafleting for 90 mins while I have a nice lunch in this pub"
2) they get resentful when they see how much money you make and only pay them thier normal wage, even worse I started to feel guilty if I had a good day so I would give him bonuses.
but the plus side is you can have a great laugh and even the crappiest jobs are a breeze.
mike
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clinton
2 of us doing standard housing, i.e semi detached with car length drives your looking at 1000 every 2 hours, were going out all day monday and tuesday so we'll get a proper idea as to how many a day, good mixture of houses where were going so it'll give us a good average. hoping to do 6000 monday and tuesday, got 2 calls today from the ones we did today so i'm optemistic.
the plan is 200,000 a year. which is 400 hours delivery work (1 day a week). with royal mail that would cost £10,000 so it makes sense to take my mate on full time paying him 10k a year leafletting and helping me clean. in theory this sounds great as long as i get the work in, the referals will take care of next year as i'm getting a lot all ready.
and also cos were doing the leaflets ourselves we can get them printed in 10k quantities and change them regularly while monitoring the responce of each design. fingers crossed it all pays off.
mike.
never had a lazy lunch in my life, i'm a workaholic and my mates not lazy, (not saying you are but as you said you like a chill out once and a while).plus ive told him straight, the more work we get in the more i'll pay him, if i do well, he will do well. i don't believe in minimum wage, you only get what you pay for and he'd soon get bored an find something else, i want to give him a good wage once were up and running, he's well up for it so hopefully i won't have your problems, agree with your plus sides though, had a good laugh today all though i am a bit worried about the winter months, i'm a workaholic but not a glutton for punishment,
derek
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a sneaky trick you can use with an assistant is really up-sell protector ;)
just get them to say at the end of the job( in front of the customer)
"shall I get the protector out of the van?"
then answer "no we are not protecting it"
they then say "NOT PROTECTING IT!! "
then just carry on packing away and wait for the customer to start asking about protector ;D ;D ;D
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I would never mix business with pleasure, friendships can be and have been ruined through situations like this, can you really be your friends, boss/employer and expect anything but problems.
Mark
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must admit mark, thats my only concern at present.
derek
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Derek why not pay Royal Mail £5k and see how busy you can get?
on the other side, is your guy going to want £10k a year when well actually 39hours at £5.73 =£11620.44 plus NI (you pay some) which is about another £1000 plus insurances comes to nearly £13000 a year.
Shaun
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shaun
must admit i'm not up on ni and poop but 5k with RM would get 100k leaflets out where as 10k plus the bits you just added on will get me 200k leaflets out 1 day a week and 4 days of help on the job. i know its a risk an all, but ive spent 40k setting this business up, might as well go the whole hog,
thanks for the info on ni and insurance, i'll have to nip and chat to my accountant to see what the crack is. my mate would be happy with 10k and if i can get up to your annual takings then i wouldn't mind giving him 15k. had a good chat with him today and he's up for it.
he who dares
derek
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Have a look at the government business link website Derek, there are some very handy things on there, you can even create your own employment contracts and also there are guides to most things you will need, best of all it is free. Well worth joining www.businesslink.gov.uk
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Steer well clear of Royal Mail. Stop any Postie and ask how many leaflets get returned to be shredded ::) They dont get done!
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Derek you may be able to get a government grant on wages for a small amount of time but I have employed 4 staff and it's a clerical nightmare, you gate Heath and safety issues etc etc personally I wasn't in a position to take someone on for years but you know your business.
IMO you need to be at a position where you are turning work away or booked up solid week after week to employ also if you are that full then I would put my prices up(supply and demand) , carpet cleaning is profitable for yourself but not to employ staff they will drain your finances, the real question are
1. are you solidly booked up week in week out?
2. do you charge more than most of your competitors?
Shaun
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derek, before committing yourself see how many jobs you get from the leaflets, you might be surprised how few you get unless you really go for it as mike does,
colin
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Royal Mail charge far more than any other deliverer, try someone else first.
Shaun
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your all right with your comments, i shouldn't be running before i can walk but ive always been a risk taker, and if it all goes tits up, one of you porty guys have got a fantastic set up at a bargain price in a years time.
thanks for the advice with busines link, NI and insurance. i'm guessing elf and safety is a ball ache but i'll look into everything before i go for it, were doing a months trial to see what amount of work comes in, the leaflets will coincide with a few add mags i'm going in at the end of the month, hopefully should be fully booked in november december.
wish me luck guys, i'm going in.
derek
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Be good to let us know how you get on with the del of the leaflets derek :)
Looks like 250 per hour then per man hours,just i have not got round to doing the leaflet drop yet as have work in.
You can only try derek with your mate.
Did you ever think of him putting money into your set up and have a sort of partnership so he gets an incentive ???
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I used to have 10 guys working for me a few years ago on another buisness, you don't make enough money with one guy to make it pay, you need several to warrant all the extra cost and time. Now i don't employ anybody and i never would again, its a nightmare, not turning up for work, turning up late, being resentful of what your earning, employment rules, holiday pay etc etc. My advice would be put your prices up so you do less jobs for more money.
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Hi
Be very careful that you don't train your competition.
When taking on anyone you must be sure that they are bring something to the table. as then they will be needed and your view about them will be different.
Respect and good luck
Ian Harper
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cheers ian.
a lot of comments saying don't do it.
its strange to me that i want to spend 10k a year on a helper which in my view will double my productivity and make me busier through leaflet distribution, and all but a few say don't do it, then on another thread theres a lot of guys willing to spend 10k plus on premises which won't make much difference other than stopping the wife nagging.
am i missing something.
derek
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Yes, you are new, hungry, determined and optimistic. We are old jaded sour old f4rts. On the whole I think carpet cleaners are a solitary bunch and are used to working on there own.
I think if you have the money and the stamina hit it now, coming up to Xmas is the busiest time anyway.
So many carpet cleaners are worried to death about someone taking there work not realising that 9 out of 10 people have not got it in them to start there own company anyway.
It would not be worth the paper it is written on but but a competition clause in the employment contract saying they will not set up in your area for 12 months. If they still go against that after signing it at least you will know that person was not worth having around anyway and it is something you can point out to any customers that you might lose that he is an untrustworthy scum bag.
By the looks of your set up, training, website and marketing so far you are already in it for a penny or two so why not go the whole hog.
I am envious of the drive you have at the moment, in a couple of years you will either be very rich or bankrupt, and what I have gleaned about you so far my money is on you making it.
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I totally agree with Sherco, we had 5 staff at one point and it was an absolute nightmare. People not turning up having to arrange cover, apologise to customers on behalf of staff.
It's better to charge more & do the work yourself which is what my husband and myself do. We are really at the stage we could do with an extra pair of hands now and again but do not want to hassle that goes with employing people. Someone with a business said to me when we had staff working for us 'Oh be careful you don't want to get too big' I thought at the time that's not very ambitious, but 6 months on I totally agree with her.
I think employing a friend is a very dodgie business, if he's done something wrong that your not happy about will you speak to him or just leave it as he's your friend. It's a tough one
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It's very sad, but true, that we live in a time when it's very difficult to find anyone interested in working, part of the problem is the crazy government policies which make many worse off if they work !!!!!!!!!
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I am far more geared into commercial cleaning, the same as Suffolk Clean and have had as many as 50 staff at one time. It is very difficult to get half decent staff as it is not a career but a stop gap.
this is different because carpet cleaning IS a career AND a full time job and pays far more. A commercial cleaner will be charged out at around £12-£14 per hour and they will receive around half of that as wages, more than likely for around 10-15 hours a week, that sort of money is not buying commitment or loyalty.
Given my time again I would not have started a commercial cleaning company but gone straight into carpet cleaning in the way Derek has.
With all due respect to Suffolk Clean I don't think you can compare commercial or domestic cleaning staff with a carpet cleaning operative. Looks to me like Derek is building a business or even a small empire rather than creating a job for himself.
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gary
cheers for the comments gary, i put this thread on so i could digest all the negative comments i would get, i knew i'd get them, and before you all have a go, i welcomed them all, once digested i could make up my own mind (if i hadn't all ready) if it was a wise move,
it was really refreshing to get your comments and as youve probably all ready guessed, he starts monday, fingers crossed.
clinton
me and my staff ;D have a small job monday and a big one tuesday so i wont be getting as many leaflets out as i estimated, still going though so i'll let ya know how many per hour with 2 doing it.
suffolkclean
i'm no expert on employing people. but i'm very logical .if you employ someone with the sole view to increasing your own wages, then you'll be forever replacing that person with new staff, if however you employ someone to give them a good income and a decent life style, then they'll bend over backwards to keep there job, they'll also enjoy there work more. and the extra money they generate from enthusiasm will and should benefit both the employer and the worker. i could be wrong on this but if my theory works out then not only will i make a good living but i'll be giving a good friend a good living too. i may even cut him in on the business if he does well and wants too.
he is my friend and a good one, one i wouldn't want to lose, but he understands me and what his job is, and thats to work hard so i can pay him good money. if i thought he wasn't a grafter then i wouldn't even consider him but i know he is so no worries there. oh and if he did something wrong i'd tell him, and he knows i would.
anyway some fantastic comments for me to mull over and chase up, especially the NI, ins and elf an safety.
cheers guys,
top banter
derek
ps.. gary, cant you sell the contract cleaning company and start again doing domestic, must admit, i couldn't see a boss of an office smiling from ear to ear and wanting to hug me like some of my domestic customers do. now thats job satisfaction.
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ps.. , cant you sell the contract cleaning company and start again doing domestic
;) ;D
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Hi Derek
I would think twice about setting on a friend, your decisions as an employer will get clouded.
Theres always a chance he will set up on his own in 12 months time and steal all your custys when he sees the potential and like Mike said the resentment factor sets in especially if your good friends, in this current uncertain climate it may be a good idea to wait a few months.
With all the good intention in the world, delivering flyers for 6 hours plus a day, especially now the cold spells on its way is, mind numbing, hard, boring work, give the guy a few weeks and he'll be looking for a job at Tescos.
A better option might be to employ someone (cash in hand) for say 10 hours a week just on the flyers side and ride out this uncertain period. Taking someone on is a big commitment.
Paul
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The leaflets that are delivered now will be bringing Derek results now, in 6 months and even a years time, we all know that.
Seems to me that most carpet cleaners are scared of the employee becoming a competitor whereas the reality is that is far more likely to happen in the contract cleaning sector where the employee is in daily contact with the company, but it very very rarely happens.
Best person to give advice here must be Paul King, he is the ONLY carpet cleaner I can think of that actually employs other people to do the work and I bet he is also the richest person on here.
Of course it is a risk taking someone on, but it is an educated risk the same as it was an educated gamble to become self employed in the first place.
Ever heard the expression if you try to keep hold of something too tightly you will lose it? I know nothing about running a carpet cleaning company with more than one person but it is the only way to grow, you have to take a chance and it looks like this chap has the bottle to give it a go.