Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: mark_roberts on February 21, 2005, 03:09:22 pm
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Just wondering how we all clean carpets especially as microsplitters are so widely used. Vote your primary method that you use for the bulk of your work.
Assume that spotting is done as and when required.
thanks
Mark
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Thanks for the replys.
For the guys who HWE only is this with a truckmount or portable? And have you tried any other way of cleaning or is this the way you where taught. No criticism intended only curiosity (sp).
thanks
Mark
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theres just too many saints on ths board ;) 65% of you always pre-vac....
yea' I bet you do!!
the amount of carpet cleaners vans I've seen, and not a vacuum cleaner in sight ::)
I carry a kirby in my van but I'd be lying if I said it came out of every job.
Mike
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ya, pre vac my ar_e
what they mean is the customer has already vacuumed for them. same thing but not quite.
i had a look at my oreak the other day. it was in the van but under everything else. the thing was moldy, i wouldn't dare plug it in!!!
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Horses for courses, if you're using MS then of course you will at least pre-spray, agitate and extract thats the nature of the MS beast.
If you do not use MS then most will generally pre-spray the heavily soiled areas with any number of different products and then HWE.
However, if there is little soiling and you have a good quality machine, then there may not be any need to pre-spray as the HWE will generally clean the carpet to a very good standard by itself. Some of you puritans may describe this as "splash 'n' dash", I don't.
Personnally, we use the Extracta Scrubba Delux Power heads which agitate as they extract and give a better finish to the pile than using wands only, pre-spray when its required....thats my honest opinion anyway.
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Ian makes a very valid point.
If using detergent rinse, if untrafficed areas do not appear to have any atmospheric soiling either, then the wand should do all you need. If you are using a freshwater rinse, then an all over pre-spray would be the norm, possibly not agitating the untrafficed areas being a timesaver. Personally, I have always pre-sprayed everywhere, whether M/S or detergent, for years and years and years....My approach to cleaning is that a quick once over with a wand isn't going to remove a years or more soil. It needs softening up and breaking down first.
As for the pre-vac, I must be a saint :D
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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I'm one of the four who HWE only. I use a t/m and very rarely pre spray. When I have to I use blitz and a sebo otherwise just clean with hydradri. Most of what I do is domestic, (private and letts), find that 400psi at 230 0f gets it as clean as its ever going to be.
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I have been cleaning carpets just short of 2 years now and have to say I have never done one with out pre vaccing.
I would not call myself a saint so dont shout at me Mike, but I feel that the first stage of the clean ( removing dry/debris dirt and dust) makes the wet clean alot easier.
There has been occassions when the customer has already vacuumed and weird as it may be I still get the sebo out and do it my self.
Paul
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As professionals I would say that you know the results you are looking for irrelivant of which steps you take, me personally, I use a vac, spray a bit of Zoflora and job done, best £5 I ever did earn :o
Shaun
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Hi Guys,
One of the interesting chats I had after Carpex was how many really prevac .
A well respected member of this forum said 'we all know that most don't pre vac much , but nobody admits to it!'
Cheers,
Doug
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Shaun
Is Zoflora woolsafe ;)
paul
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I must admit that i have begun to see the advantage of vacuuming after Sebo Duo on very well maintained carpets ( regularly hoovered, as they say).
Naughty me :P
Wait till Mr Holman sees this thread......................... :'(
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I always pre vav on all jobs including upholstery.
But then I am a saint ;D
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Hi Guys
Ahh the old Zoflora.
Always carry a couple of bottles for the smelly old carpets that have had there day.
it's amazing how much you can charge for a cap full. Come on we all do it.
Just off to Sainsburys.
Regards Kevin
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Well well well... I must say i am deeply dissapointed, :'( the importance of pre-vaccing is paramount to a professional clean. All these courses we go on allways tell you to pre-vac first!! why would they tell you this if is wasn't important ???
I would ask all the HWE guys who dont pre vac to do a test next week pre vac every job and then the following week dont, them come on here and tell me theres no point in pre-vaccing ;D
You will be suprised how easier it is to clean a carpet that has been pre vacced and how you vac moters will last 3years without breaking down ;)
All the best
King of pre-vac
Nick Holman
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TOLD YA ;D
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I have always resisted getting into a discussion, and would certainly never argue about the necessity to pre-vac, as everyone has their own opinion, often formulated over a long period of time, and these opinions are difficult to change, assuming anyone would wish to !!
In my early days I vacced everything religously, because I was taught to, but then started to have doubts.
In 20 years I have done many, many comparative tests on both domestic & commercial. I have come to the conclusion that in 90% of domestic scenarios, it makes no significant difference to the end result, or the time taken using HWE to to achieve that result.
Some situations obviously do require the use of a vac, such as Orientals, some upholstery etc: but I believe in the majority of cases it is both a waste of time & effort.
This also applies to commercial to a slightly lesser degree.
I have no doubt that many will be horrified by my apparent lack of professionalism, but as I said we all have our opinions & these are not easily changed.
Bryan
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:o I am horrified :o
Also spelling Brian with a Y ???
Y ???
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Bryan,
Nice , honest answer.
Cheers,
Doug
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I think young Robert maY have something to say about this topic!!
This topic has cropped up a number of times over the last 2 years and Rober wrote an article for the NCCA called 'The Importance of Pre-Vaccumming'
Something like that anyway
Regards
Nick
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Pre Vacuuming will give you better results, plus prolong the life of vac motors. I have seen many horror stories where cleaners vac up glass and cigarettes with their extraction machine and wonder why the vacs go. Please whatever method or machine or chemical you use PRE-VAC!
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NIce one Lee ;D
Us old Prochem boys stick together ;D ;)
Nick Holman Prochem 1990-92 :P
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Nick,
When are we going to see you on t.v.
I always enjoyed darts and used to play the odd England player myself , always lost though.
Cheers,
Doug
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Who did you play?
Got some great players from Essex
Kev painter
Al headman
colin lloyd
wayne Mardel
the last 2 are my generation
done them both on the same day when i played for London
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Nick,
I was never that good , only played in pubs .
Bristow thrashed me once.
Also played Tony Sontag and a couple of others who I can't remember.
Cheers,
Doug
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Tony Sontag a blast from the past he was England
And a magnum lookalike aswell!!
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Nick,
Spot on! or should I say bullseye :D
Cheers,
Doug
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So Pre vaccing is not to get a better result but to prolong the life of your machines vac motors?
I presume this applies to porty users, as t/m users have at least one filter on the waste tank, 2 if they use a hydro filter as most do. like Bryan and I said it makes no difference in the vast majority of cases. Complete waste of time.
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Sorry Dave I don't agree
It makes a great deal of diffirence, removing soil through dry extraction is a vital part of the cleaning process prior to wet extraction.
The amount of times I've come across carpets that have been HWE only either by TM or Portable that are left in poor condition as a result is too many to mention.
You must have seen how low profile carpets look after just HWE cleaning.
I agree if your doing a quick splash & dash,for not much money and the client is not particularly bothered about results then you can get away with it.
Otherwise IMO its a must.
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Nick,
I spell Bryan with a 'Y' not to be different or 'posh' but purely because that is the way it is spelled on my birth certificate. A name or the spelling thereof is meaningless, it does not affect who or what we are, and was of course not of our choosing. :-\
Woodman,
I am sure you are not suggesting that because I rarely vac I am operating as a 'splash & dash' and that neither myself or my clients care about the results. This is far from the truth, & it is unlikely that I would have survived, and moderately prospered where it the case. :'(
Those who pre-vac & those who don't must agree to disagree. all views arrived at over time by personal experience are equally valid. You just need to be happy and confident in the way that you yourself operate. If something happens at some stage to change your views, then you are free to change your modus operandi.
I always said I would refuse to allow myself to be drawn into this type of discussion. I am annoyed with myself for being sucked in. Must have too much time on my hands >:(
Bryan
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Pre vaccing with a good quality, well maintained twin motor vacuum cleaner will not only remove dry particulate soil, but also open and lift the pile, making penetration of the pre-spray and extraction of the soil easier. It is accepted that the more dry soil removed, the less water and chemicals required. This has an effect on the quality of the job and also environmental consequences too.
I have a classic personal experience of the advantages of pre-vaccing. In a previous life :-\ I didn't pre-vac :o A 4 bedroom house I clean regularly would be an 08.30 start and a 16.00 finish. When I started to pre-vac, it took until 10.30 (including strategical placing of furniture) before I turned on the HWE. 2 hours lost? No way. This 4 bedroom house was now finished by 15.30 and the carpets dry much quicker. Why? because I use less water the carpets dry quicker. Because I use less water I don't spend as much time at the kitchen sink. Because I use less water, I dump in the loo less.
Water + dry soil = MUD
MUD is heavy and more difficult to remove.
I'll repeat what's been said by me and others in the past. Madam thought I'd already cleaned the carpet when all I'd done is pre-vacced it properly. Won't need much chemical/wet cleaning then will it :)
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Calm down BRYAN ::)
Its just my opinion ;)
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Going back a few entries to Nick and Doug, I saw a notice last night in our local whilst watching the Newcastle match, Eric Bristow is coming to our local for an exhibition against local team players!! Living on his past legend do you think!! I'm sure they could have got someone a bit more current than him for a quick throw from the ockey!
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No Bryan
I wasn't suggesting you are a Splash & Dash operator ::) what I was saying is if all that is required is a quick splash round by the client for what ever reason then the pre-vac could be left out, I have done this myself for a couple of clients in the past who just wanted a flash over with the wand to tart things up before aunt or nan arrives and aren't much bothered about a full clean.
So I think that makes me a splash and dash doesn't it ;D
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I removed 1/4 of a bag of heavy gritty soil from a large HSL this morning after I raked it with a groom. It was a 80/20 in a communal area of a rental property, so was bascially neglected.
I do prevac most carpets and charge extra if its neglected. I use package pricing and most will pick the vacuum option. However theres times when the filter on the Sebo shows very very little dry soil removed and so in these cases IMO prevaccing is a waste of time esp on polypropolene carpets.
If using Texatherm its essential but again some low profile carpets dont give up much soil.
Have never done a side by side test but it makes sence and its another marketing tool.
Mark
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"Because I use less water, I dump in the loo less. "
Ken......That is way too much detail :o
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whenever anyone talks about not pre-vaccing I know someone is going to come up with the old wifes tale that water + dry soil= mud ::)
mud is what my son gets on his football boots on a saturday morning, to say if you don't pre-vac you will create mud in the carpet is nonsense.
go into the garden, dig up your flowerbeds and empty it all over the carpet then you might create mud, but the amount of dust & dry soil in a carpet won't.
Mike
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I disagree Mike, but see where you're coming from. So I'll re-phrase. Without pre-vaccing, you'll need to use more water because your soil will be muddier ;)
Safe and happy mud-pieing :)
Ken
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D i r t
You may be wondering what household dirt is composed of.
You really don’t wanna know, but since you asked:
First, it’s about 75-80 percent dead human skin cells. We mortals slough off millions of skin cells daily and this shedded material makes up the disproportionate portion of “vacuum cleaner” dirt. The rest of it is hair, animal dander, dust mites (another whole scary thing to think about); and the smallest portions being pollen, dirt, sand and earth tracked or blown in from outdoors. Bet you thought it was the other way around...
Shaun
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First bit of kit out of the van, come commercial or domestic is me Sebo - always
That's the way I was taught and as previous comments, I want my HWE machine to last.
In the last couple of weeks I have had comments from custies about the amount of equipment needed for carpet cleaning. Obviously making a good impression then ;D
Chris
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I always pre -vac for 3 reasons
1) It does remove a lot of dry soil 85%,
I,m sure half the house,s i go to don,t vac.
"oh that,s a lot better" I,ve only hoovered love ::)
2) I like to give pepole value for money, or feel that they have had value, not a quick going over
3) when vac,ing I tend to notice stain,s or marks that I haven,t seen on the audit . I can then bring these to the attention of the customer.
.also begin a porty user it gives me somthing to do while the water is heating up
Neil
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I do many country properties and I get half a field sometimes. So much so that after prevaccing etc. when I start rinsing I get a line at the edge of the water run where the mud runs to the edge. This then rinses out on the next pass. Quite often the dump water is brown rather than black.
Trevor
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The thee reasons I prevac as follows:
1. To remove dry soil. I am dubious that this process removes 85% of soil but still feel that the carpet looks cleaner after this process.
2. Pre vaccing lifts the pile enabling penetration of the pre spray (as previously mentioned by Ken).
3. It gives you the opportunity to inspect the carpet thoroughly to identify all the stains or damage before getting it wet.
I have been cleaning carpets for 2 years and for the first 18 months didn't bother with the pre vac. 6 months ago I started to do it and definately find it works for me.
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I forgot to mention, as Neil 47 quite rightly mentioned, that the pre-vac is the best and last opportunity to visually inspect EVERY sq. inch of carpet prior to commiting to a chemical process. An invaluable part of the audit/inspection.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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i always pre vac with animal hairs and when doing h/s/l and entrances. otherwise it depends on the costing of the job. i never usually pre vac commercials(offices) as they are vacced most evenings. other wise its a judgement call. i find if my vac motors last 3 years they need replacing or the machine is underperforming anyway. recently had 2 vacs replaced with alternative manufacturers at half price of original parts mwith staggering results. i should probably pre groom every job and set the pile after not to mention agitation!!!! instead i dont follow set routines i use JUDGEMENT. to properly clean a carpet following all the reccomended steps every time would not be necessary.
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With all due respect jc... What you are saying is that you don't work to a standard, but work to a price.
I am 110% certain that the office environment you've mentioned will not be vacuumed well by the cleaning contractor. What will have happened is that they will have done a good job of removing surface litter, that is totally different to the standards promoted within our industry. May I suggest that, if you haven't done it yet, to invest in some of our industries quality training courses such as NCCA, IICRC or Prochem. And practice what they preach.
If we believe what the media tells us, your judgement approach, although it may appear to be satisfactory on a day to day basis, has led to the catastrophy that the NHS now finds itself in re cleaning and hygene. By working to the highest possible standards we can on carpets, they not only look good/better for it, but have an extended service life too. And what does it cost to vac a carpet properly? From my experiences, a 25000sq ft office cost me about £30. That's not much is it?
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Well said Ken ;D
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it's a judgement thing with me too, and judgement always tells me, pre-vac.
maybe I'm one of those saints.
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I think this must have been a wind up thread.
There is only one poss answer every time PRE VAC
END OF STORY.
Paul
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think there is few people telling porkys on this subject ::) more like 85% just hwe 8)
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I did write a bit of an essay for this but when I previewed it I lost it so here's the shortened version..
IMO, its all down to personal pride, being consistant in your methods of cleaning will help ensure you do a good job, gives the customer value for money and the chances of repeat business is greatly improved.
There is room in our industry for all types from splash n dash to top end, we may not like it but then some people won't pay more than £30 to have a carpet cleaned. We cannot state that we are splash n dash or infact carers of carpets and fine upholstery, only our customer base tells us this, If you are doing more £30 jobs than £300 jobs then you know where you sit in the scheme of things.
I personally take pride in my work and pre-vac every job, regardless of size.
Again, MO
Chris
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absolutely
the point is i am a business man not a fanatical cleaner. i have both high end and low end jobs and to make low end jobs that are not obviously dirty more economical i skip this stage. i feel you fanatical pre vaccers if you can get 85% of the soil out with a vacuum are spending too much money on hwe machines and too little money on vacuums. i also feel that the assumption that most daily cleaners dont have the equipment or the skill to vac properly is totally incorrect. many on this forum vac with a dyson. 9 out of 10 customers already do this anyway. many customers also look after their little used machines better than many carpet cleaners who use theirs many times a day. sebos probably release more dust into the air than they extract. buy yourself a rainbow and give your lungs a break.
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jc... The difference between you and people like me. You're a business man who removes some soil from a carpet and achieves satisfactory results for most of your customers. Good business practice as #1 (jc..) comes first. Absolutely nothing wrong with that as we do live in a real world.
People like me tend to be tradesmen first and businessmen second. We aim to remove the maximum amount of soil possible from a carpet and work to the highest standards we can. We would call ourselves passionate about our skills. Some may call us fanatical ;) But of one thing there is absolutely no doubt. If you follow Best Practice Procedures as taught by the likes of the NCCA, IICRC, Prochem, Woolsafe et al, the carpet will be cleaner, stay cleaner longer and have a greater serviceable life expectancy.
With your reference to the office carpet scenario to which I referred in my earlier post, because of the real world time and cost restraints imposed on office cleaning contractors, no matter how good the intent, no matter how good the typical tub type vacuum cleaner, the amount of dry particulate soil removed will never be of an acceptable level to an experienced quality seeking carpet cleaner. THE MOST EFFECTIVE TOOL FOR HIGH PERCENTAGE DRY SOIL REMOVAL ON TYPICAL OFFICE CARPET IS A TWIN MOTOR UPRIGHT VACUUM CLEANER. Tub types have no agitation, an essential element for dry particulate soil removal.
Being the passionate tradesman I am, I go out of my way to teach my residential customers how to vacuum their carpet properly. Why? Because they don't know how to do it. I have NEVER had a new customer who knew how to vac a carpet. When I do it, they are amazed at the difference, frequently thinking that that was all their carpet needed (sometimes they're right too :D ) So, I would never allow a customer to do the vaccing for me,'cos they're not good enough.
I respect the commercial decision that you have made re the way you clean some of your carpets. I don't agree with it, but I respect it. But of one thing I am certain. No matter who, no matter where. Miss out the pre vac and the results will always be wanting.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Hi Jc
Im 100% with Ken on this one! well said Ken ;)
I all so think your crazy ??? if you think 9 out of 10 carpet cleaners on this board use a Dyson and to prove that to you I have done a poll post on
"what vac you use" take a look at the results in a day or two and then tell me that 9 out of 10 cc use a dyson. I will bet you not even half use one.
Would I be right in saying you a £20.00 a room man ? :D
Also what training do you have in this industry?
Regards Gavin
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i have read your post and the reason many people dont use a dyson is because their customers already own one and they like to have something more unusual to give the customer the impression that they are paying for something different. i charge £20+vat for a 2m*5m room (there or thereabouts. i also find the implication that carpet cleaning is a highly skilled job as laughable. i spent 4 years learning a real trade and another six years learning on the job. a few days on a ncca/manufacturers promotion hardly gives you credibility. face it carpet cleaning is a money making exercise. it is an ideal and very lucrative low investment business. with few caveats carpet cleaning is straightforward. i have been cleaning carpets for four years using many systems. the prochem manual explains 90 per cent of the ins and outs>hardly rocket science>
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HI JC
I have proved you to be the fool you are :( with my poll ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Your sort are not welcome on this forum!!
HOW DID I KNOW YOU WERE A £20.00 A ROOM MAN :(
GO BACK UNDER THE ROCK YOU CRAWLED OUT OF IDIOT >:( >:( >:( >:(
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He can't be much of an idiot, he charges £20 PLUS VAT which meens he earns over 58k
If he is an idiot, he's a rich one ;) ;)
Mike
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Gavin,
A little strong I feel.
If you had done a poll on whether the earth was round or flat 400 years ago , then you know who would have won that one!
JC is putting an alternative point of view which although many would not agree with is neverless valid.
All I would say is why do it for £20 when you can do it for £40?
Cheers,
Doug
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i do pre vac all of my carpets but apart from that i agree with all that you say Jc.
doug that would work out at £4/m a little steep?
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£4M2 isn't steep. A little higher than my charges, but I'll soon be there.
jc... makes some very valid points as a businessman and any success he has achieved are well earned.
Carpet cleaning a highly skilled trade? I'd agree that it's perhaps a little over the top. But skilled? Certainly. As with many trades, apptitude is just as important as skill. If it were to be an unskilled trade, we would all be working to the lowest common denominator and leaving (unvacced ;) ) soaking wet carpets that take a week to dry.
I'd say that carpet cleaning is a skilled trade which requires continuing education in order to develop and hone existing as well as new techniques and knowledge. An appreciation of physics, chemistry and biology is advantageous too. And obviously maths and english from the business side.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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i dont mean to be controversial or annoy anyone (gr) just wanted to be honest with my thoughts. for me one of the advantages of cleaning carpets/upholstery is the relatively low stress factor. i.e. not always having to work at the edge of your skill. although physical endurance is a different thing. working within your skill/knowledge base. this coupled with the financial benefits makes it spot on. job satisfaction is also present in bundles and i can only think this is why my thoughts made gr angry. physically for me cc is v physically demanding.(one reason i would usually choose a steempro for a porty) anything to make my job easier is good whilst still working to a standard.
on a slightly different point my feeling is in the midlands/ north west carpet cleaning hasnowwhere near reached saturation. about 25-35% of my clients have never had their carpetsetc cleaned b4. is this similar for others. esp in the rest of the country.
a reasonable 80/20 twist pile carpet can be brought for £9-10 m2(poss less)over against £4 for a clean??!!! give me a new carpet anyday. i chage £22-28 a seat on upholstery for this reason, most sofas are over £1000 and can stand this charge.(plus can be much much trickier to clean)
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I was looking for the actual poll to reply to, we don't pre-vac most jobs, and always Pre-spray even if it's light, chemical and dwell is our friend. and find with the teflon glide on the titanium wand, that an extra pass is all that is needed to make up for lack of vacuuming, and it's really easy because of the the teflon we are sliding on.. In actuality to properly vac an entire job, I could do twice as many passes witht eh wand in teh same time, so I have to weigh that.
We generally only vacuum when there are visible chunks, and do find most homeowners do a fair job of vacuuming in our area.
Cali Yank
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I pre vac every single job bar none!!! A majority of carpet soiling is dry particulate so why turn it to mud?? Most domestic clients vacuum prior to my turning up but I still manage to remove enough to make it worth while.
Never one to cut corners ;D
Paul
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The only one I don’t pre vac is the ones with black top and a few of them, then I just sweep! So I had to vote in the second category 13.7%
Len
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I started cleaning via HOST, as i stumbled into the trade from window cleaning. Then I discovered Bonnet and OP cleaning, then a Portable, so I am all too familiar with giving the clients the "mud' spiel.
I have done many comparisons myself, and to be completely honest I didn't notice a big enough difference to pre-vac every job when using a TM and a good wand.
Like I said above, and extra flushing pass does a lot.
Cali Yank
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Good point Len :)
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The mud thing doesn't really stick with me, ha ha but if you get a mud patch from a grassed area and were to spray extract it for long enough it would go away, wouldn't it?
I think Robert Olifent called vacuuming good housekeeping and I think it is, but the only thing is that there is no scientific way of testing to see if a pre vacuumed and then hwe carpet is any cleaner or stay cleaner than a just hwe carpet the tests are not accurate enough.
Shaun
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If In doubt pre vac anyway! It cant do any harm and only takes a few minutes :)
Paul
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I think it takes more than a few mins...LOL
When I do vacuum, it's like 5-7 mins. more per room, and sometimes twice that on a bad one.
We schedule 3-4 domestic jobs a day, and are working flat out to get them done as it is. travel can be a fair bit.
pre-vacuuming "for good measure" is not realistic.
Cali Yank 8)
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I'm stuck in my ways ;D
Paul
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Aren't we all, Paul?
Green Yank
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I always pre-vac first my 12volt car vacuum cleaner is brilliant ::)