Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Clive McDonald on September 21, 2008, 05:58:10 pm
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As you may know from some of my stumbling posts i'm thinking about expanding.
This may be employing and putting another van out. I've been playing about with the math of how this would work and the key indicators I need to look at.
These might be jobs per day one man can do (me) and the average price of these and daily value. And then the same figures but with two men (me plus helper).
The weekly and yearly figures.The costs( (£8ph) as a basic).
What costs/indicators (business intelligence) do you think are key to planning a successful growth strategy in our business?
My conclusions so far that two men with a target of 72k would be profitable and still under the Vat limit. (I said target, not achieved turnover because losses are inevitable).
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With just 2 you should be easily doing enough to be over the VAT limit unless your working part time almost.
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Is that two men on one van?
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Regardless you will be over the VAT limit,you need a lot of work if they will be WFP you know how much you can do on your own.Unless your keeping under the limit on purpose my view is you will easily go over it as you will be turning over the work.
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am not right in believing the vat threshold is 67k???
I think the best thing iv found about employing is that it takes such a strain of you, it can also free days up if you need to do some estimates or meetings.
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i am at the crossroads of where next to expand ???what i want in either way i go is no stress...
i work on a 4 weekly round, and so i will continue to build untill it takes me 5 weeks, im nearly there :), but i only now take on very well priced work...(not greedy, but well priced)
my biggest overhead is my van, and the biggest problem i can see is finding a good employee!..
so i want to be there to use the 1 van and oversee the work...i would like someone part time and arrange the work for those days... where i can send them off in the same street to get on with it with a trolley or backpack.......its not always about turnover, im more interested in profit, and lower stress levels....i like to expand slow but steady...well priced good quality work...and i believe this is best in the long run
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If you only have 4 weeks worth of work i would say your quiet a way off of taking someone on unless your thinking of taking a back seat,i`ve said before you will need way way more work WFP than you would working trad only.I would have someone work with you for 3 months until they know where there going and then after that period leave them to work alone while you give your time to getting more work,at least a third more to start off with i would say just for starters.
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yes i understand , but after looking at some posts of those of those with employees , i am at the top end acheiving those figures on my own and im home for 2.30...
like i said ...slow steady good quality...i cant put figures on a public forum , but i totally understand your thoughts,,,, my week extra (5th week ) would pay a months salary for an employee....and im nearly there...
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I as well as many on here have looked at this also, I believe. My outcome was that it is more profitable to have someone working alone, as my business model is not based on exreamly tightly nit rounds so each hour I might spend ten minutes moving to the next job.
Never explained that there very well, what I mean is that if you have two people working together they will be capable of doing double the work, but you cant cut your traveling time in half, that will only increase. But then there is the cost of two vans which is also paramount, I do think that a WFP business structure is much more suited to have two men working together, infact one could do the outside WFP, and the other could do the insides trad which could add a good few hundred onto the round you already have, if you are only doing outsides.
The main outcome of my research into this, was that the majority of my investement would have to be on advertising, marketing, canvasers or round biulders. This would insure that I wouldn't take a cut in pay as my work is spread over two people, and instead would see imeadiate improvement in monthly income by having a round ready and capible or providing the employee with a substancial wage imeadiately.
Hope that inputs helpful
gerard :)
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these topics are difficult because we would like to talk figures, but cant talk freely on apublic forum, as this is where we can all learn from eachother....this is where personal messaging would help ::)
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I as well as many on here have looked at this also, I believe. My outcome was that it is more profitable to have someone working alone, as my business model is not based on exreamly tightly nit rounds so each hour I might spend ten minutes moving to the next job.
Never explained that there very well, what I mean is that if you have two people working together they will be capable of doing double the work, but you cant cut your traveling time in half, that will only increase. But then there is the cost of two vans which is also paramount, I do think that a WFP business structure is much more suited to have two men working together, infact one could do the outside WFP, and the other could do the insides trad which could add a good few hundred onto the round you already have, if you are only doing outsides.
The main outcome of my research into this, was that the majority of my investement would have to be on advertising, marketing, canvasers or round biulders. This would insure that I wouldn't take a cut in pay as my work is spread over two people, and instead would see imeadiate improvement in monthly income by having a round ready and capible or providing the employee with a substancial wage imeadiately.
Hope that inputs helpful
gerard :)
i undrestand the comment about your buisness model, aout your round not being compact... im lucky , in that i have been able to build a compact round , but its taken 16yrs :o....also my pricing structure takes into account travelling etc.... so the spread out work...(rural areas) pay a little more...but then they have more money,and dont mind paying a fair price
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I as well as many on here have looked at this also, I believe. My outcome was that it is more profitable to have someone working alone, as my business model is not based on exreamly tightly nit rounds so each hour I might spend ten minutes moving to the next job.
Never explained that there very well, what I mean is that if you have two people working together they will be capable of doing double the work, but you cant cut your traveling time in half, that will only increase. But then there is the cost of two vans which is also paramount, I do think that a WFP business structure is much more suited to have two men working together, infact one could do the outside WFP, and the other could do the insides trad which could add a good few hundred onto the round you already have, if you are only doing outsides.
The main outcome of my research into this, was that the majority of my investement would have to be on advertising, marketing, canvasers or round biulders. This would insure that I wouldn't take a cut in pay as my work is spread over two people, and instead would see imeadiate improvement in monthly income by having a round ready and capible or providing the employee with a substancial wage imeadiately.
Hope that inputs helpful
gerard :)
i undrestand the comment about your buisness model, aout your round not being compact... im lucky , in that i have been able to build a compact round , but its taken 16yrs :o....also my pricing structure takes into account travelling etc.... so the spread out work...(rural areas) pay a little more...but then they have more money,and dont mind paying a fair price
My pricing structure also accounts for this, I know many windows cleaners that do no more than half a dozen street, but I prefered to cover a larger round and take advantage of more of the missed opertunites of other window cleaners, but both models have there advantages and disadvantes. For instance many seem to just work a list, doing them when they can, but I believe will spend more time, traveling back and forward trying to collect payment than me as I give them a booking that suits them, but my disadvantage is that I do more driving due to this, but this might not really be much more than someone working a list if they have to travel back and forth for collections, but I beleive allot in my area allow the outstanding amount to biuld up until they catch them in rather than trying to collect it before, the end of the month.
To stay on point allittle here, I have heard of someone who just had his employees do the work and he went by in the even and collected the money. This is ok if you dont have much faith in your employees honesty, but this in turn doesn't say much to the customer about who you are having working on there premises. Then there is the issue with the quality of work. Due to the window cleaners not having to face the customer when they were finnished they were trying alsorts, like missing windows etc which of course cost him allot of business and most of all his reputation through no fault of his own.
gerard :)
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yes i understand , but after looking at some posts of those of those with employees , i am at the top end acheiving those figures on my own and im home for 2.30...
like i said ...slow steady good quality...i cant put figures on a public forum , but i totally understand your thoughts,,,, my week extra (5th week ) would pay a months salary for an employee....and im nearly there...
IMO that`s exactly where it has to be if your thinking of employing,you want to be earning over and above his months money in the first working week from then on your getting into profit.
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at last! someone whos on my level :D :D its sao hard on this forum to give figures and reasonings before being shot down and told your overexagerating....i often wonder what some do with their time :o
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and when you get there this is when it frees up time to knock knock...canvass etc
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The challenge in expanding any business is that there is a period where investment must come before each stage of the expansion is complete.
When we as window cleaners started out as 1 man operations we made an investment, our time and effort, but now we want to expand we are no longer capable of putting in time as it is already being spent on our existing customers.
We have to make some difficult choices, spend some money on marketing to increase the size of the business or spend some money on staff that allow us to go out and expand the business by marketing.
A reasonable compromise is to find a part timer that can do the work a couple of days whiele you build your round to 7 / 8 man days a week and then take the jump and employ someone fulltime.
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interesting thread
ive been offered a fair bit of comercail work ( its from a mate of a mate who is a mason ) but its work that would be fairly secure etc etc and i was looking at what amount of work ( in money terms ) i would need to get a 2nd guy on full time ( part time is a option i guess )
i came up with a wide range of figures to be honest, as the variable ( the van ) could be a major expense of a really small expense
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You are all underestimating the difficulty in finding and keeping someone who is reliable, thats the hardest part. Not just window cleaning, all businesses have this problem.
It works fine on paper but when you try and put it into practice thats when the trouble starts. What happens when you have a full days commercial work booked and they phone in sick with a feeble excuse? Or they spend the whole day talking on their phone and not working?
No employee is going to be as committed as you are
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I'd be happy about paying for the van. A big expense to me would be time and effort to train the guy for two months and then him leaving.
The second man helping does not have to match my earning figures, my calculations are that he must contribute about £15ph over and above what I achieve, and doing this make my daily life easier, and be able to catch up after holidays.
A second van would have to be £30ph target, but there would be a figure for labour and the van that was a fixed weekly cost say £300-£400 labour, and £100 for the van. On that basis anything over £500 would be profit
Spotted vw camper in new tv kipling cake ad by the way.
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Another way would be to find a reliable window cleaner locally that needs more work and sub-contract out section of work to him. This way you can pay him/her a higher rate and have none of the overheads of employing. If needed you can split this up between 3 or 4 'subbies' and maintain maximum flexibility and coverage.
This tends to work best on commercial work as there is no need for money to be collected etc. If doing this on domestic work it is better to have switched them all to paying by Standing Order. This means that all the 'subbie' has to do is to leave a windows cleaned slip through the door.
I use the above methods and have done so for years. I personally would not want to employ someone and have found this alternative to be stress free and profitable. Probably not quite as profitable as employing someone in the short term, but in the long term I wonder.
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For most of us employing someone is a big step, maybe for you the equivilent step would be employing a manager.As a second generation business who has branched into e commerce and supply, and now with orignal sourcing your own products and supalite brand lines your position is a bit different to ours.It could be said that you stay within your window cleaning comfort zone because you have bigger fish to fry, not because it's the best solution.
I was most interested in what sums are the actual ones that define our businesses.Airlines have things like profit per passenger air mile.Another poster said it is very difficult to do in practice, and might be okay on paper.... well it's the okay on paper bit i'm interested in. If it can work on paper then it must be possible and failure is down to us as poor managers.
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For most of us employing someone is a big step, maybe for you the equivilent step would be employing a manager.As a second generation business who has branched into e commerce and supply, and now with orignal sourcing your own products and supalite brand lines your position is a bit different to ours.It could be said that you stay within your window cleaning comfort zone because you have bigger fish to fry, not because it's the best solution.
I was most interested in what sums are the actual ones that define our businesses.Airlines have things like profit per passenger air mile.Another poster said it is very difficult to do in practice, and might be okay on paper.... well it's the okay on paper bit i'm interested in. If it can work on paper then it must be possible and failure is down to us as poor managers.
I think its possible to do sums that represent real life but you will 99% of the time have to put a lot of effort in to make it happen, i have got a business plan that will hopefully culminate in me having an employee full time in the next year, and the sums are there, and are quite conservative really i think after researching it as much as possible and basing it on my own experience of the industry, and im definite i can achieve it, but there will be difficulties such as finding a good employee, keeping the work coming in, etc, so i think you need a plan, and if you find as you work hard at it that it might be a bit too wishful, then give yourself a bit more time, or lower your goal a bit, otherwise you will just get downhearted, but you do need something to work too otherwise your standing still- or going backwards!
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i have just taken someone on , i use the van mount and he has a trolley , and i need loads more work , you can storm through the work in no time , at this moment in time my earnings are way down because i,m paying 2 canvassers and an employee , but the future looks good regards alan
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these figuers are made up but say for example you worked out your outgoings were £111 day with paying a wage and that two of you can earn £400 then you know that there is 290 left profil b4 tax.
you ask youe self what can i earn on my own?? say its 200 a day well your making an extra 90 a day you will prob find you dont have to work has hard you enjoy your day more, if you get the right person he can work on is own when needed too and lets be honist if you want to expand you have to employ all though one employee is not going to make you a millionaire if you have 6 all making you around 90 a day then well the future is bright 8)
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I know Alex's reply went down like a lead balloon but for simplicity and flexibility it's a very good idea particularly if you have some newish start ups in your area hungry for work or maybe someone prepared for a little overtime on a weekend. You can then subby out as and when your workload fluctuates.
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It wasn't fair of Alex to offer his own example because he's special; obviously very capable, but he took over a family business and has been doing it a long time.
We are people mostly who have been going for two years or less. Even the standing order thing is not legal for most of us.
Not digging in anyway but family businesses are notoriously badly run and very often when they go public professional managers have to come in.
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10 years for me, one thing i can say is, it doesnt happen overnight.
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Agree with Dave Morris. It's a big riddle every day with matching work to staff, weather problems, vehicle problems, equipment repair and replacement, it goes on and on. Stick at it and you will win out, but it takes longer than most think. If you are not prepared for the long haul keep it simple, one man one van and under VAT. Window cleaning is great if you like cleaning windows, being independent , feeling free and outdoors. To take it to the next levels is tons of stress and beware of lack of cash flow that can kill you.
The systems builders will tell you it's easy - just like those that show those figures for network marketing and the like. Looks good on paper, but put vehicles and human beings in the formulas and it will take far more time and effort to achieve your goals.
Chris
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I was thinking about putting a second wfp on my van and employing a part timer to start off with , next step after going with a full timer someone to work the hoses, in theory then i could work with 3 maybe 4 people off 1 van and fly round my customers i would also be able to keep an eye on the quality of the work and even canvas around the area i'm working . my biggest concern would be the winter months ie icy days when i would have to pay staff when theres no money coming in . forecast for this winter is bleedin freezing.
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Agree with Dave Morris. It's a big riddle every day with matching work to staff, weather problems, vehicle problems, equipment repair and replacement, it goes on and on. Stick at it and you will win out, but it takes longer than most think. If you are not prepared for the long haul keep it simple, one man one van and under VAT. Window cleaning is great if you like cleaning windows, being independent , feeling free and outdoors. To take it to the next levels is tons of stress and beware of lack of cash flow that can kill you.
The systems builders will tell you it's easy - just like those that show those figures for network marketing and the like. Looks good on paper, but put vehicles and human beings in the formulas and it will take far more time and effort to achieve your goals.
Chris
i agree with all that but i only take on work where i get paid quickly.... i even ask about terms of payment! and if its too long i aint interested.....
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If your a solely domestic W/C then its all pie in the sky. It's almost unheard of too make employing work, UNLESS you work side by side with people your employing - but even then it's doubtful you'll keep a long term employee of any merit.
The problem with those talking about business plans, etc is that they have slight ego issues - they want to build an empire while others do the work. Domestic window cleaning is not the trade to do this, its more for those who want to earn a good living, minimal stress, and flexible working hours. To be an entrepreneur you need to pick a different industry.
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Thanks Ambient, not what I wanted to hear, but i think what you say makes sence. This doesn't mean that I wont do it, but it's given me a more realistic view.
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Thanks Ambient, not what I wanted to hear, but i think what you say makes sence. This doesn't mean that I wont do it, but it's given me a more realistic view.
and he is also wrong! its down to people and management skills. there are a lot of ego's flying about. make your employees feel appreciated then they will respect you! get on an ego trip and take the mick out of them then don't expect them to stick around.
Its all in the handling
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I am very interested in this thread as I have been contemplating taking on staff for some time now. I was speaking to a taxi driver friend the other day, he now has 4 taxis, he drives one himself and the others are driven by people who work for him on a self employed basis, he provides the car and the customers, they have to pay for the petrol out of the takings, and what is left is split 50/50. Would this type of arrangement work for window cleaning? I don't see why not. I think I am going to test the water to start with by taking on a couple of part timers, who help me out a couple of days a week.
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I am very interested in this thread as I have been contemplating taking on staff for some time now. I was speaking to a taxi driver friend the other day, he now has 4 taxis, he drives one himself and the others are driven by people who work for him on a self employed basis, he provides the car and the customers, they have to pay for the petrol out of the takings, and what is left is split 50/50. Would this type of arrangement work for window cleaning? I don't see why not. I think I am going to test the water to start with by taking on a couple of part timers, who help me out a couple of days a week.
Best way to do it IMO.
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Have you tried it mate? :)
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No i havn`t but i`ve tried every other way,if your supplying the van and system etc you can justify your expense and he`s less likely to get green eyed on you.If he was taking the van home 40% would still seem fair,it all depends on what money your doing per day-week.
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I think if you can get the right person, this could be the way to go, I would be very interested to know if anyone has tried this and how well it works? :)
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If your a solely domestic W/C then its all pie in the sky. It's almost unheard of too make employing work, UNLESS you work side by side with people your employing - but even then it's doubtful you'll keep a long term employee of any merit.
The problem with those talking about business plans, etc is that they have slight ego issues - they want to build an empire while others do the work. Domestic window cleaning is not the trade to do this, its more for those who want to earn a good living, minimal stress, and flexible working hours. To be an entrepreneur you need to pick a different industry.
Got to say that I disagree, Ambient, the only limits are those set by your abilities or vision.
With regard to employing if anyone thinks it is about getting the right employee then they are mistaken because what is required is a series of reasonably decent employees because in most cases they will be good for a while and then get bored, lazy, take you for granted, rob you etc. and then you will have to replace them same as any other business.
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If your a solely domestic W/C then its all pie in the sky. It's almost unheard of too make employing work, UNLESS you work side by side with people your employing - but even then it's doubtful you'll keep a long term employee of any merit.
The problem with those talking about business plans, etc is that they have slight ego issues - they want to build an empire while others do the work. Domestic window cleaning is not the trade to do this, its more for those who want to earn a good living, minimal stress, and flexible working hours. To be an entrepreneur you need to pick a different industry.
Got to say that I disagree, Ambient, the only limits are those set by your abilities or vision.
With regard to employing if anyone thinks it is about getting the right employee then they are mistaken because what is required is a series of reasonably decent employees because in most cases they will be good for a while and then get bored, lazy, take you for granted, rob you etc. and then you will have to replace them same as any other business.
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I am not in the habit of repeating myself ;D
sorry about that
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You all have the right idea in the wrong way
Forget about good bad employees, forget about employees as people
if you can't manage that you will never succeed as an employer
If you can be friends with the people who work for you that's great but they don't come to work for the friendship ,they come for the money
the secret of employing is systems. You already have as a sole trader your own system of how to clean windows
now you have to employ other people to clean windows your way
take away their personality, their strengths/weakness' and make them follow YOUR system
don't let them say " but i thought if i did this" or " i think" NO just follow the system
Systems systems systems. if your employee can't or won't follow your system get rid.
Best example is McDonalds. They make the same chip fried in the same oil for the same length of time no matter who makes it as long as they follow the tried and tested system
some of you will disagree and that is your right but you will still be wrong
the successful business' of this world are the system based one's the other's just come and go
last bit of my own opinion is if you have to ask if you should employ DON'T. As the old saying goes if there is a doubt there is no doubt.
cheers
Gordon
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Good post Gordon, but I don't think that the question being asked is 'should I employ' but 'How should I employ' I know myself that I really need to start employing to progress my business to the next stage, I am just unsure of the best way to do this. ???
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I have 4 lads working for me permanently window cleaning and 14 staff now in total, I took my first window cleaner on 6 months after starting the business.
How do we work it? my window cleaners and carpet cleaners and any others where they are not having to go in for a fixed time scale (office and domestic cleaners), are paid piece work, ie they get paid for the work they do.
If our window cleaners go out and earn £200 a day for the business, then we pay them a percentage of that. As a result they often earn more than £100 / day on good rounds with no overheads or hassle.
However if they don't go out, or the weather is really bad, then they either don't get paid, or get very little. It's swings and roundabouts.
Some people like the idea, others don't, I employ the people who like the idea because they are the ones who aren't scared of work and won't just sit on their arses if it starts drizzling on or take a wage for doing the minimum they can get away with.
We now have in excess of 1500 domestic and commercial properties that get cleaned on a monthly basis and even with the weather we've had lately, they are bang up to date with the rota.
I only go out to clean windows now when I have someone on holiday or is on the sick, however, I can't remember when the last person was on the sick.
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i too am in a similar situation at the moment i have a friend working for me full time but is set up as self employed. hadn't thought anything of it until the other day thinking about taking on another as picking up work all the time. up until now i have been paying him a lump every week directly into his account from mine but am wondering if i should be doing this or if it would be better to withdraw the cash and then give to him?? if i was to do it this way would i still be able to class this as expenditure on my returns as there would then be no proof of me putting it anywhere?or is it ok to be paying into his account as he is self employed? any help would be gratefull!
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i too am in a similar situation at the moment i have a friend working for me full time but is set up as self employed. hadn't thought anything of it until the other day thinking about taking on another as picking up work all the time. up until now i have been paying him a lump every week directly into his account from mine but am wondering if i should be doing this or if it would be better to withdraw the cash and then give to him?? if i was to do it this way would i still be able to class this as expenditure on my returns as there would then be no proof of me putting it anywhere?or is it ok to be paying into his account as he is self employed? any help would be gratefull!
theres question answer online form on hmrc website as to what the actual status of a worker is ie employed/self employed, so if they say he is employed, you might be better paying cash :) or doing paye!
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IF ANYONE IS LOOKING TO EXPAND THEIR WINDOW CLEANING BUSINESS AND ADVICE ON THE BUSINESS SIDE CALL THE CANVASSING KINGS 07591 250 517 OR LOOK AT EBAY UNDER 'Window Cleaning Rounds For Sale'. Very good at pricing and can build up rounds very quickly!!
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I have 4 lads working for me permanently window cleaning and 14 staff now in total, I took my first window cleaner on 6 months after starting the business.
How do we work it? my window cleaners and carpet cleaners and any others where they are not having to go in for a fixed time scale (office and domestic cleaners), are paid piece work, ie they get paid for the work they do.
If our window cleaners go out and earn £200 a day for the business, then we pay them a percentage of that. As a result they often earn more than £100 / day on good rounds with no overheads or hassle.
However if they don't go out, or the weather is really bad, then they either don't get paid, or get very little. It's swings and roundabouts.
Some people like the idea, others don't, I employ the people who like the idea because they are the ones who aren't scared of work and won't just sit on their arses if it starts drizzling on or take a wage for doing the minimum they can get away with.
We now have in excess of 1500 domestic and commercial properties that get cleaned on a monthly basis and even with the weather we've had lately, they are bang up to date with the rota.
I only go out to clean windows now when I have someone on holiday or is on the sick, however, I can't remember when the last person was on the sick.
This is very iinteresting, thankyou for this post! can you tell me are the four window cleaners employed by you, or are they self employed? Also do you supply the vans and equipment ect, and do they collect the money for you as well? Thanks for the help! :)
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There are a good mix of skills on this site, lionheart, gordon,ww, and m clean, seem to me very good leaders.They don't bother too much with the thinking it's more about the doing.
My skill sets are more on the thinking than the doing side.Most of us are already successfull or we wouldn't be here but it's using our strenghts and papering over the cracks where we are a bit week that's the hard part.
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well ive now been offered 19 K of comercail work PA and its 100 %
its mostly close to the M25, surrey, some in essex aswell
i woul dneed to equip a van, pay a % to the group who have got me the work and take some1 on to do it
im not sure 19 K is quite enough
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I've always respected your abilities too, but you seem to have this working man thing that stops you wanting to be a boss.
My critisisms of you;
1. A slacker. (withdrawn because you obviously work quite hard now)
2. Lack of ambition (also withdrawn)
3. Not seeing owning a van as important (withdrawn)
4.Not taking from here what others have found successful.(stuck in the rut of your own ideas)
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On the specifics it sounds good, and I beleive this is how these things work, and you are obviously trusted, so in all probabiltiy more will follow on the same terms.
You might have to work five or six days a week with long hours, but this wouldn't be forever. After two years things would get easier.
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I've always respected your abilities too, but you seem to have this working man thing that stops you wanting to be a boss.
My critisisms of you;
1. A slacker. (withdrawn because you obviously work quite hard now)
2. Lack of ambition (also withdrawn)
3. Not seeing owning a van as important (withdrawn)
4.Not taking from here what others have found successful.(stuck in the rut of your own ideas)
point 4 is very true, im of the opinion that if its working now, then why change it, i guess its because im happy with my lot at the moment ( i have a nice life )
the cost of equiping a 2nd van with a 650 L van mount is nothing,
im seriously considering this work though, i have even done some sketch's of a inside of a van ( its a VW LT 35 ) 650 L tank under a false floor, with sleeping / living arragment above, that way the guy can work the hours he likes, sleep in the van and when the job is done return home
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They are all on the books, 24 days holiday, we supply all the equipment, vehicles, uniforms. They collect the money if people are in, otherwise they leave a slip and it's paid either by cheque or online within 7 days. They are also able to price up new work if required.
We don't go out collecting anymore. Also we use George software and find it on the whole to be excellent, would like to see it able to do a couple of extra reports