Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: maclock cleaning on February 08, 2005, 10:56:45 pm
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hi to all
is their anyone out their who could explain to me how to prevent browning? and would i discuss this with the customer before starting work?
thanks
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Dont soak the carpet. ;D ;D ;D
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Hi there
Browning
A Yellow or brownish discolouration of the carpet's face, Usually cassed by impurities in cellulosic fibres such as cotton and jute,
Which wick up to the face fibers on overwetting. Most often caused by: excess aikalinity in the cleaning solution used in the cleaning process;
actived alkaline residue left by the cleaning efforts; overwetting; or a
combination of these. May sometimes appear in shades other that brown or yellow depending on colour of affected carpet.
hope this helps a bit ;)
regards
Gavin
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I don't see any reason to discuss browning with the customer, it very rarely happens, and like the advice so far, don't overwet & use an acid Fibre rinse
Mike
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While the subject has been brought up. Out of interest. If browning has ocurred will another less wet etc clean remove the browning?
Chris
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Mike
Do you use an acid rinse on every clean, even with M/S?
Chris
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No, the only way to get rid of browning is by using a product like DE BROWN from Extracta.
My understanding is that browning normally occurs in light single colour carpets that have a hessian/jute backing and the colour wicks up through the pile to the tips.
Cure is to apply a debrown product agitate pile to remove browning and then get it bone dry asap as this will prevent any further wicking action to occur.
The best prevention is not to overwet and to get the carpet dry to prevent wicking
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hi there,
browning, or wicking will also occur on bitumous backed carpet tiles., ans can be pretty horrific.
an example that i saw was where the carpets had been cleaned on a regular maintenance program, and then on the next clean, they were cleaned on the weekend, fine monday morning, but by monday afternoon, horrific black patches started to appear. the guys sorted it in the end
this is why the low moisture cleaning systems are now extremely popular, as the results are sometimes proving to be better.
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Hi
In the past when I have had to remove browning from carpets that have been flooded etc and I have used Alltec's De-Brown no.1
This is to be used for the removal of cellulosic browning from wicking by Jute backed carpets. It is best to use cold water when using this Product.
Have had great results with it :)
Regards
Gavin
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Hi
Had the cc removed spots or stains with a solvant based remover during the carpet cleaning??
Sounds like!
If so this has melted the bitch on the backing of the carpet tiles :o :o
Anyone new out there be carefull went using solvants
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Hi
Had the cc removed spots or stains with a solvant based remover during the carpet cleaning??
Sounds like!
If so this has melted the bitch on the backing of the carpet tiles :o :o
Anyone new out there be carefull when using solvants
Regards
Gavin
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Cris, i could be wrong here ::) but it is my understanding, that with the PH levels of m/s and the way in wich they work,there is no need for and acid rinse,
dave
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Dave if i am correct M/S no.4 has a ph of around 6.4 ( just below neutral)
therefore an scid still needs to be added to the rinse of around 2.5 to 4.5ph to eliminate the browning.
Buy beware on cleaning fabrics such as cotton suites with browning as it is more difficult to remove and can show up again if the fabric has a stain protector added ( but this usually fades when dry)
Paul
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What causes browning? Too much water, sometimes too hot water. High pH and alkalinity. Any individually or in combination.
If the carpet is too wet, but you dry it very quickly with blowers, this will not prevent the occurance of browning, it will merely show it sooner :'(
By using an acidic rinse, this will not cure browning, but combined with Best Practice techniques will prevent it.
Cures mentioned above usually work, but not always :( Prevention is much better than cure.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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thanks for the replies finding them very interesting......
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Why dont you go on an approved course. This should be the first thing done before launching out as a professional carpet cleaner, then you wouldnt have to ask, your question as you would have learnt all about it. Remember the better the foundation the longer and better your business will last, without one you wont get very far.
Dave.
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Hi Guys
An acid rinse is normally used to bring the fabric'schemical state back to neutral
No 4 is Ph 6.8 there and returns to neatral on drying anyway, there is no need whtso ever to use and additional acid rinse,on it or the standard product or the heavy duty product, as these also dry neutral,
An acid rinse does not literally mean acid, great care should be taken with both high Ph or very low Ph,
I would suggest a good course,NCCA or IICRC, Or Prochem, Extracta
Best regards Nick
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Great response to browning and indead PH.
But I wonder does any body Know what ph stands for ?
Paul
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Nick
When you say no need to acid rinse the HD product are you refering to solution no 2 for synthetic carpet. As luck would have it I used this today for the first time having got some off of you a few months back and it worked absolutly fantastically, I was concerend about it,s ph value as I could,nt find it on the container and so did do a acid post spray and agitate. For future reference is this generally not required.
Thanks Michel
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Hi Paul you asked for it
1) What does the abbreviation pH stand for?
2) How much more acidic is water with pH of 4.5 than water with a PH of 5.5?
See? We don't understand much about pH after all. The answers are "per Hydrion" and "ten times" respectively. Allow me to explain.
Hydrogen in its cation state is known as "hydrion". The pH scale is a logarithmic scale and can also be referred to as a "molar concentration" of hydrion ions. Now you are scratching your head and saying "Huh"? A "mole" in chemical terms is a set quantity of molecules, that quantity being referred to as Avagadro's number. Consider the number 602 with twenty-one zero's trailing it. That's a mole. A "molar concentration" is the number of moles of hydrion ions in a liter of water. Since it works out to be less than one, we can express it as a fraction (groans from the mathematically challenged). When you see a pH value of "X", it really means the molar concentration is 1/10x moles of hydrion for each liter of water. So, if you have a pH of 5.0 that means that for each mole of stuff in the sample you have 1/105, or 0.00001 moles of hydrion. Doesn't sound like a lot, but remember a mole is a really big number. You would think that it contains a lot of hydrion, but it doesn't. One mole or 602,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ions of hydrion works out to weigh only one gram, That means a liter of water at a pH of 5.0 has only ten micrograms or ten millionths of a gram of hydrion ions. A pH of 6.0 indicates a concentration of 0.000001, or one millionth of a gram.
What about a pH of 5.1 you ask? Or 5.2, 5.3, etc? Remember this is a logarithmic scale so it kind of curves its way along, with the difference between 5.0 and 5.1 being greater than the difference between 5.1 and 5.2, and so on. Suffice it to say that it is somewhere in between and the closer it gets to6.0, the fewer it has.
At this point you need to introduce a scientific convention. Scientific conventions are things scientists all agree on so they can communicate better (and I' " bet you thought it was a bunch of nerds with lab coats and pocket protectors taking over a hotel). When a Hydrogen atom is in the hydrion state it can be shown as "H+". When it has an extra ion and therefore is negatively charged it is written as "H-" and is called Hydride. The chemical symbol for Calcium is Ca and when it is in ionic form it will be short two electrons. This will cause it to have a double positive charge and will be written as CA++. Nifty huh?
Maybe here it would be a good idea todiscuss "mass solutions.. as opposed to "molar solutions". (and not he ones I sell) While molar solutions are based on the number of molecules of something in one litre of water, a mass solution measures the weight of the substance dissolved in a liter of water. It is expressed as mg/1 (milligrams per liter) or mmg (micrograms per liter). We will need this definition later so stick it into the back of your head for future reference.
Now back to Ph water below a pH of less than 7.0 is "acidic" and above 7.0 is considered ..b,ase". If you were to distill water to an absolute purity and keep it from dissolving anything - even air, it would have a pH of 7.0. Why? Because water is an ionic compound. As such its chemical bond is not as strong as it would appear.
I'll leave it there for now
Best regards Nick
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Forgot to ask what is the Ph of no2 for synthetic carpet
Michel
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Michel
high 10.9-11.1Ph
Best regards Nick
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Nick :)
Far too much info :D
All I was looking for was. :P
PH stands for The Power of Hydrogen. ;)
Paul
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Hi Pual
you mean
per Hydrion
Best regards Nick
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;D ;D
Paul
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Hi Nick,
I always understood pH meant 'percentage Hydrogen', so this is incorrect or does it equate to per Hydrion, or is it just a simplified way of explanation?
Dave.
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Thanks Nick
Does no2HD also return to netural on drying
Michel
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Does it matter what ph stands for My sons the Phd not me ;D ;D
Its late Im going to bed
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Nick,
Where did you get that explanation from ;)
The simplish defintion of pH is potential hydrogen ,i.e the hydrogen ion concentration .
A logarithmic scale means , simply that PH6 is ten times Ph7,and pH 5 is ten times pH6.
In practice this means that a solution of pH 11 is 100 times more alkaline than pH 9 and 10000 times more than pH 7.
Cheers,
Doug
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Michel
Yes it does
Dave, this is the per translation,
Doug, Idecided to give the full version, not the simple one
Best regards Nick
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come on Nick,
you were just being smart arse weren't you ;D
pH = potential/possibility of Hydrogen
99.9% of us are carpet cleaners and not chemists or scientists and only need to understand the basics of pH. well thats my excuse any way ;)
The manufacturers have done all the work for you with regard to dilution rates,dwell times, etc.
So unless you carry a lab around with you in the back of your van, you should not be altering mixing ratios already tried and tested by the manufacturers in your cleaning process.If you do and come unstuck as a result ie browning then its your responsibility.
As for acid rinses, a lot of cleaners carry this out as a matter of course and most times it is simply not required indeed if you do and it's not required you could do what you were trying not to do which is push the carpet out of its safe pH range.
It must be remembered that most carpets are not manufactured at pH neutral 7 but will be around the pH 4 mark for example with the dyes stable up to pH7- 8.If this carpet is then cleaned using a product with a pH of 9 then pH of the carpet will rise from 4 to around 5.5-6 so its still safe.Had the carpet been 7 to start with then the alkaline would rise to 8.5 - 9 and you could now be in trouble as its out of its safe range.Add to that the possibilty that the carpet may have been cleaned in the past and the pH may already be at 8 as the last cleaner had used an alkaline product of 9.He got away with it and left it in its safe range but now you come along and clean again at pH 9.The carpet is now at pH 9-10, your in trouble with out even realising it.
You must also of course make sure you know when using alkaline products if they are buffered or not.
If you have the above information you would then know when to use a sour rinse or not.For example if you don't know if the carpet had been previously cleaned then it might be a good idea to protect yourself and carry it out( if you haven't already carried out a pH test that is which of course we all know we should if no information is to hand ;))
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I don't know, you answer a question and !!!
I wouldn't say smart arse,
Obviously interpretation of this subject is relative to the the individual, and what they need the information for.
I don't carry a lab, but would suggest I now have more than a basic understanding of the subject, I have added to my own knowledge by accessing the internet, reading up on te subject and talking to the likes of JB, and others, now having a large involvment in the production on cleaning chemicals, my general knowledge of the subject increases every day.
My personal opinion, of Ph within carpet cleaning is that it is only a small part of the chemistry knowledge require to be a professional in this industry.
To succesfully clean a carpet correctly adequate knowedge is required.
Best regards Nick