Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Paul Davidson on August 09, 2008, 10:33:37 am
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I have never been a fan of upholstery cleaning, the 2 main reasons being that with so many fabics out there it can be easy to damage the material (even for experienced cleaners) and secondly its lots harder work than carpet cleaning!
For the first time on Friday i looked at an Aridex rotary foam upholstery cleaning machine. This system would apear to take a lot of the risk out of upholstery cleaning, as well as the plus side being you can cover the area quicker than with conventional hwe or dry cleaning methods.
Do any of you use the system or something similar? This could be a turning point with regards to my attitude towards upholstery cleaning :D
Your thoughts advice or experience with this system would be appreciated.
regards and thanks
Paul
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Firstly I would get on some training courses.
We use a Drimaster tool made by Hydramaster, extremely effective tool that leaves the upholstery surprisingly dry.
S
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Harvey i have the older version of this von schrader machine which has a rather heavy brush tool but does give good results even if the dirtier areas need a little extra work(arms headrests etc).If i did a lot of upholstery cleaning i would probably invest in a cfr handtool for my powerflite extractor though .I went on a host von schrader course and was told that the only thing you cant clean using this method is shiney chintz.The newer version is easier to operate and should leave the fabric virtually dry so thats a great selling point.Regards Alan(swindon)
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Firstly I would get on some training courses.
We use a Drimaster tool made by Hydramaster, extremely effective tool that leaves the upholstery surprisingly dry.
S
Hi Spencer,
I have just attended the Cleansmart course run by Derek Bolton, which was very helpfull and informative.
It was on the course that i looked at the Aridex system and thought it seemed to cover the area fairly quickly and also take a lot of the risk out of of upholstery cleaning that is associated with water extraction.
The Hydramaster tool looks likes a clever system, i presume that is run in conjunction with the HM T/M??
Alan,
I have a CFR machine and hand tool, which is obviously a very efficient bit upholstery cleaning equipment, but i liked the dry finish of the aridex, the speed of the system/machine, as well as the safe clean side of things (no worries of ruining the suite with browning, colour run etc etc)
cheers
Paul
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Harvey I see from your details you are from the scottish borders.I would be interested to know what you can charge for an average suite up there.The reason i ask is that my cousin in Earlstone doesnt seem to get any leaflets from carpet cleaners.I was up for a funeral some weeks ago and you get to discussing all sorts of stuff when well into the booze.Regards Alan
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Harvey I see from your details you are from the scottish borders.I would be interested to know what you can charge for an average suite up there.The reason i ask is that my cousin in Earlstone doesnt seem to get any leaflets from carpet cleaners.I was up for a funeral some weeks ago and you get to discussing all sorts of stuff when well into the booze.Regards Alan
I am taking over my Dads CC business at the minute but he has been charging from around £80 upwards depending on size how many loose cushions and material etc.
Prices are most likely up tho! :)
How much do you charge way down south??
cheers
Paul
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Harvey I dont do alot of suites but start at £90 for an average 3 piece.Its too hard graft to do for alot less.Regards Alan
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Harvey I dont do alot of suites but start at £90 for an average 3 piece.Its too hard graft to do for alot less.Regards Alan
I agree hence my searching an easier, safer, quicker and more profitable option!
cheers
Paul
Does any use the Aridex system as there main upholstery cleaning system?
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Harvey, I'm curious to know why you view upholstery as so risky and fraught with danger! There's just as much can go wrong with carpets, it's all down to experience and confidence.
Subject to pre-testing (which will gradually become superseded by your experience) you can clean just about ANY modern upholstery fabric with a water-based system. It's pretty resilient stuff, it has to be otherwise furniture wouldn't be covered in it!
Of course there are exceptions, but the problem is that you've maybe been listening too much to the scaremainering marketing tactics of the manufacturers who sell "dry" systems.
The last time I dry-cleaned a suite because I didn't want to get it wet was about 3 years ago, and even then 50% of the reason for doing that was that it wasn't visibly soiled. If it had been dirty I'd have qualified with the client and extracted it.
I think the most common pitfall in upholstery cleaning is overwetting, so if you work with that in mind you've chopped out a huge part of the risk already.
Viscose is still fairly commonly found, although I've noticed recently that polyester is being used to replace the velour textures traditionally achieved with viscose in some fabrics. Marks & sparks suites are a good example of this.
Viscose is normally used to create the textured, pile part of a fabric, typically 20% - 40% of the make-up of the fabric. I don't think I've ever cleaned a 100% viscose suite, only a very old footstool from out of an insurance job which was the first time I learned about the "drowned rat effect" :)
That's one of two two things to watch out for with viscose - the matted down appearance it can be left with when water-cleaned, and also its loss of strength when wet. I've found that modern viscose, when only very short pile (up to a couple of millimetres), suffers no matting down at all after water-based cleaning followed by a brisk drying off with a fan and a gentle towelling off to fluff the pile back up.
You should be looking towards building your suite cleaning up to £120 plus for an average suite, as your experience and confidence grows. It's a lot easier to add on protector too, as many are protected originally. One of the first questions I ask when quoting is "Was the suite supplied with a protector on it?". This helps to plant the seed in the customer's mind that protector is important.
I sometimes under-price the protector and over-price the cleaning, so it all adds up to roughly the same but makes buying the protector a no-brainer for them ;)
Lose the Fear 8)
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I often find carpet cleaners who aren't 'fans of upholstery cleaning' charge what you charge and to be truthful if I charged your price I wouldn't be a fan either :-\
its not harder than carpet cleaning, Its just you earn less doing it. Try charging £150 then you'll see how easy it becomes.
Mike
Ps; foam cleaning will never beat HWE, foam doesn't have the capacity to dissolve or flush out the dirt
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Harvey, I'm curious to know why you view upholstery as so risky and fraught with danger! There's just as much can go wrong with carpets, it's all down to experience and confidence.
Subject to pre-testing (which will gradually become superseded by your experience) you can clean just about ANY modern upholstery fabric with a water-based system. It's pretty resilient stuff, it has to be otherwise furniture wouldn't be covered in it!
Of course there are exceptions, but the problem is that you've maybe been listening too much to the scaremainering marketing tactics of the manufacturers who sell "dry" systems.
The last time I dry-cleaned a suite because I didn't want to get it wet was about 3 years ago, and even then 50% of the reason for doing that was that it wasn't visibly soiled. If it had been dirty I'd have qualified with the client and extracted it.
I think the most common pitfall in upholstery cleaning is overwetting, so if you work with that in mind you've chopped out a huge part of the risk already.
Viscose is still fairly commonly found, although I've noticed recently that polyester is being used to replace the velour textures traditionally achieved with viscose in some fabrics. Marks & sparks suites are a good example of this.
Viscose is normally used to create the textured, pile part of a fabric, typically 20% - 40% of the make-up of the fabric. I don't think I've ever cleaned a 100% viscose suite, only a very old footstool from out of an insurance job which was the first time I learned about the "drowned rat effect" :)
That's one of two two things to watch out for with viscose - the matted down appearance it can be left with when water-cleaned, and also its loss of strength when wet. I've found that modern viscose, when only very short pile (up to a couple of millimetres), suffers no matting down at all after water-based cleaning followed by a brisk drying off with a fan and a gentle towelling off to fluff the pile back up.
You should be looking towards building your suite cleaning up to £120 plus for an average suite, as your experience and confidence grows. It's a lot easier to add on protector too, as many are protected originally. One of the first questions I ask when quoting is "Was the suite supplied with a protector on it?". This helps to plant the seed in the customer's mind that protector is important.
I sometimes under-price the protector and over-price the cleaning, so it all adds up to roughly the same but makes buying the protector a no-brainer for them ;)
Lose the Fear 8)
Hi Jim, thanks for the info, and i generally agree with all you have said about fear and a lack of experience and proper drying etc, but have to say that Derek Bolton who was the trainer on the Cleansmart course i attended was very pro wet cleaning, and concentrated the majortity of the day based on wet cleaning.
It was fairly much last thing on the day when we got the opportunity to play around with a few machines that we were shown the Aridex machine which i was very impressed with. It seemed to offer a way of working quickly and efficiently without some of the possible problems that are associated with inexperienced upholstery cleaners, which i am at the moment, only time will change that.
My main reasons for seriously considering this or a similar system is a) its quicker b) generally safer c) a + b = an easier day with more profit 8)
cheers
Paul
PS The Cleansmart training was 100% about training and there was no hard sell what so ever! They obviously made themselves available to sell but the day for the students was about the training not about being sold to!
PPS Derek Bolton did an excelent job!
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I often find carpet cleaners who aren't 'fans of upholstery cleaning' charge what you charge and to be truthful if I charged your price I wouldn't be a fan either :-\
its not harder than carpet cleaning, Its just you earn less doing it. Try charging £150 then you'll see how easy it becomes.
Mike
Ps; foam cleaning will never beat HWE, foam doesn't have the capacity to dissolve or flush out the dirt
I mostly agree with you Mike, although i do think its harder working a hand tool for 2 hours than it is working a floor wand for 2 hours!
But i do plan to to increase the prices we charge, and for sure my general attitude towards and my dislike of upholstery cleaning may change if i felt i had been rewarded properly for my hard work!
cheers
Paul
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I could clean carpets a lot more profitably, I could forget about pre-vacuuming and pre-spraying and just rinse them through with water. But I don't, because I know of a better way than that.
There aren't really any shortcuts other than sacrificing quality.
Focusing on having an easier day with more profit is a very self-centred approach that doesn't really give any consideration to what your customers want! There are plenty of customers out there who are prepared to pay a decent amount of money to have someone spend some quality time with their furniture and give them a good service.
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I could clean carpets a lot more profitably, I could forget about pre-vacuuming and pre-spraying and just rinse them through with water. But I don't, because I know of a better way than that.
There aren't really any shortcuts other than sacrificing quality.
Focusing on having an easier day with more profit is a very self-centred approach that doesn't really give any consideration to what your customers want! There are plenty of customers out there who are prepared to pay a decent amount of money to have someone spend some quality time with their furniture and give them a good service.
Jim, you seem to enjoy talking people down with your suposedly superior knowledge, if i am wrong about this then i am sorry but that is the way you come over, not just with this post but in lots of others too.
You are obviously a very experienced and knowledgable carpet cleaner but please dont imply that i am a slacker or not prepared to work hard, by saying i am self centred in looking for an easier day without any consideration for my customers.
Doing research to see if i can find a more efficient and profitable way of doing something is good business practise.
I want to give my customers a quality job with them being happy with a clean 3 piece suite! If an Aridex does this to a high / satifactory standard then i will seriously consider it. If it does not leave upholstery clean then i am not interested in it!
At the moment that is what i am trying to find out, its called doing your homework!
So in future if you have anthing informative to add to any posts a may make then please do as i genuinely appreciate the knowledge of others including your self but, if you just want to talk me down then please keep your superior knowledge to yourself Thankyou!
Regards and thanks
Paul
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This is the problem with forums, it's just words typed on a screen. People read things and perceive them to be "said" in a certain way when that might not be the case.
Maybe if I put more smileys in it, I don't know :) :D ;D
I'm giving you my honest opinion, that's all. If there was a way to get really good results in half the time of HWE don't you think that we'd all be doing it?
The reason I question your motivation is because we are in a service industry - you find out what your customer wants and then provide the service to meet those needs. Wanting to make life easier for yourself can very often clash with what's best for your customers. Mike has made a very good point in his post above.
I really don't care if people think I'm being "superior" or talking down to them. To be honest, I read some really questionable stuff on here which nobody ever challenges and I think more of the experienced professionals should do their duty to the industry and steer people in the right direction, rather than ignoring such things.
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Jim
I've had the same problem for years ! That is, the years I've been posting on forums. It's very difficult to be the same person you are in a face to face discussion.
A few do it very well, but not the majority. You have to take the overall post and consider what the poster attempting to get accross.
robert m
My wife has posted occasionally over the past couple of years and set up this current I D she got quickly put off by a particular member who assumed her to be me. Hasn't even looked in since.
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I like doing upholstery just as much as carpets, there is a lot of carpet cleaners im my area that wont touch suites and will only clean carpets, god knows why not!
Mark
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Paul,
The truth of the matter is the foam system is completely useless on dirty upholstery, i wouldn't bother going there if i was you,
To do a professional job with a proper deep clean you need to go hwe, you certainly wont have an easy day if you cant get a decent result from your method of cleaning.
I tried the system at the last cleaning show and it was a joke, it didnt even clean the demo chair they had there, ::)
I would only use this if you were def only going to do clean suites, but in the real world we know that doesnt happen
steve
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Years ago when I cleaned with a foaming brush machine called a Holloway swift we used to get wick back problems even after a HWE rinse, to HWE after was a bit of a joke because the injection of water couldn't get into the fabric as it was full of foaming cleaner and would repel it.
Foaming cleaner was great a brightening cotton prints up that's all.
Shaun
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Is this being sold as NEW................I'm sure this has been around almost as long as I've been cleaning suites, 24 years.
Anyone who attended a SAFECLEAN presentation about 15 - 20 years ago will have seen such a machine, which generated foam, although it was using natural sponges at that time, rather than a power brush.
robert m
I still have an old Holloway, complete with wooden box and two brushes.
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Thanks guys, it sounds like not many of you have much time for the rotary foam cleaning system.
Thats why i asked the question and appreciate all your comments drawn from actual experience.
Thanks
paul
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Paul
I have used every system / method / chemicals around and can offer a positive on using a chrystalising foam. My success will be doubted, in fact condemned, by some, but, I get and have been getting good results for a number of years on suites which I see twicw yearly.
Originally used HWE on them, but decided to use c/f around the sides and back, was amazed at the results and extended the use to entire suites with excellent results.
Like everything else, you need to find products you can work with, to get results. I've had excellent results from several products over the years, but dumped some for reasons of cost, or availability, or concerns.
The Von Schrader foam is good, but I have found the Chemblend product to give excellent results on suites and at a higher volume, on carpets.
I use bonnet mitts.
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Interesting to see the different perspectives about the cleaning.
I have been using an old Von Schrader series !! foam machine for well over twelve - fifteen years.
I have also been using hwe for a lot longer than that.
Back then, I purchased my VS much because of the perceived drying times and safety on different fibres.
I was sadly disappointed with the end result most times I used it.
Especially on severely soiled upholstery.
Consequently I went back to hwe, using an Australian made tool with three interchangeable heads.
When the Drimaster came on the market I got (I think) one of the first in the country.
I loved it & would clean most anything with it and still do.
Now we don't get some of the great products that you people have in the U.K., but when Releasit Encapsulation solution came on the market in Australia, the old Von Schrader came out of moth balls once more.
The results were simply astounding.
The main draw back was the size and weight of the machine and the tool.
Because of the weight & size issue, I have since gone to using a Makita variable speed polisher for upholstery that I intend the Encapsulate.
This I can use with pads or bonnets, even a bonnet with an agitation stripe in it.
Be it Encapsulating with the Makita, or doing a complete flush with hwe, these tools are only that, a tool to help us get the best possible result for both ourselves and our customers.
It is up to the operator to choose the best method for this purpose.
I love upholstery cleaning, it pays me better than carpet cleaning, especially when most carpet cleaners will not spend some money to get proper training in identification of upholstery fibres and how to clean them safely.
I am not trying to put a slur on anyone here by that statement, I just think that if we are going to do a job, it should be done to the best of our ability and to get that, we should be trained by a competent instructor.
Hope this helps and does not confuse the issue.
Ooroo ::)
Oops :-[ orry,
Shorty ;)
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its not harder than carpet cleaning, Its just you earn less doing it. Try charging £150 then you'll see how easy it becomes
fantastic reply mike, still tittering,
colin ;D
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I do not see how the foam machine would properly clean the suite. We tried using aerosol foam on a customers car a couple of years ago as they didn't want the seats to be damp but to be honest it was rubbish. I'm sure the brushes and the foam get the surface dirt off but it has to be more effective using extraction surely?
Anway reading this topic has been extremely helpful to me as I have leaned that I am seriously under pricing upholstery cleaning we were only charging £40-£50 pounds per suite! lol!
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Kelly
We're not really talking about using aerosols. You can generate foam through a machine, like the V S, or the quick and easy way, using a bucket of hot water
The post from ooroo! was interesting, as it's from someone who's been around a while and experimented.
The Makita idea is not as crazy as it might seem there's a similar product sold in the U S and I'm sure it does an excellent job on heavy soiling.
robert m
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Harvey
I agree, upholstery cleaning isnt as easy as carpet cleaning, I dont care what anyone says.
Have a look at the Minitex machine, you can use it to agitate the prespray. They are made by Texatherm and cost about £300. It should save a bit of elbow grease.
Kevin
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I actually like upholstery cleaning ;D
M/S with a drop af f/f in the tank and I'm away for most jobs
It gets a bit mundane when you have loads and loads to do but I charge £25 per seat so the more the better ;D.
I want a drimaster hand tool, but at present just have a bog standard upholstery tool, I just keep the p.s.i. low
Ahhhh the drimaster....... one day ;D
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andy, someone will shoot me down in flames for this but dream about owning the cfr upholstery tool, in MY opinion, much better. i'll get me coat now.
colin
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andy, someone will shoot me down in flames for this but dream about owning the cfr upholstery tool, in MY opinion, much better. i'll get me coat now.
colin
Second that Colin
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what makes it so much better? I've not experienced the cfr hand tool. Is it a shorter version of my wonderwand ;D
The drimaster is very very good
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Colin will you pass me my coat also? I like the CFR tool aswell, wouldn't mind trying out the new drimaster tool but apparently they can't make them in China fast enough because they've got their sports day on at the moment ;D
Shaun
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i can't get my head around a tool that has to have the water running through it all the time that the machine is running thereby using water even when it is not being used, the cfr uses the same principle, ie water rinses through one slot and is picked up almost instantly by the vac slot allowing quicker drying, but you pull the trigger to pass the rinse water through the tool, blimey, if pulling a trigger is difficult forget using a wand then!!! i find that the cfr uses a tiny amount of water to clean a 3-piece, i often clean a suite and then most of the carpets in the house as well before needing to fill the rinse tank, (truck-mount). the cfr is made of smooth stainless steel and doesn't 'snag' material, you can change the jet sizes easily, (which i never find the need to do) and if you have the 3" and the 5" head, you can change those in a few seconds. what's not to like?
colin
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The Drimaster has a flow control valve Colin, you can completely shut off the flow for doing dry passes or if you put the tool down to do something else.
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well yes jim i agree, but you don't turn that switch on and off when your cleaning so it stays on, you might turn it off if your going to lay the tool down for a while but that's all so it uses more water,
colin