Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Goldfinch PCS on July 30, 2008, 04:15:01 pm
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I have notice Carpet Cleaners working/advertising for work at £0.17 per square foot. Now what bothers me is the fact that they claim to Vacuum, Pre-Spray, Agitate, HWE, remove stain and deodorise.
Some of these cleaners are NCCA members and IICRC members (as advertised on their site). Well why bother gaining a professional status only to work for these prices? I strongly believe that no professional Carpet Cleaning Technician should work for less that £0.25 per sq ft, what's your view guys?
To all the cleaners who care to respond;
Do you feel been a member of NCCA or IICRC have any real benefits?
And finally lets be honest about our pricing structure, because, contrary to believe competition isn't our enemy. If we make competition our enemy we stand a chance of loosing out, simply because customers vary and target marketing is better than price competition. I learnt it years ago when I use to be a sales person for Currys, we made more money when we were next to Comet on the same complex, when Comet move to another complex we were the only electrical goods retailer left on our site and sales fell by almost 50%, I quit cause my commission wasn't worth it.
I set a price starting at £0.38 per sq ft and increases it if the customer requires additional services such as green cleaning, spot/stain removal, protection and/or allergy care. I do my survey as normal and cleaned following standard procedures, I feel a lot better doing things this way than to turn up charge according to the house location or appearance or any of the other methods used in our industry.
Let's not drive our industry in the ground, place a value on yourself and on your work and sell it to the customer, if we all do that then pricing becomes less relevant and customer care becomes priority. The industry will also become less susceptible to "dodgy" or "fall short Cleaners" let the customers as them why they are so cheap and leave them to justify that. We all know what we get for cheap so please guys lets not do CHEAP.
Let have your reactions.
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I generally charge £40/hour, per person on site , and this equates to far less than 17p/foot, for the following.....rake/vac/prespray/deodorize /agitate/bonnet buff/spot/stainremoval/rake.
It is carpet cleaning, not hard to do , and I train people in under a month so I am confident to send them out to tackle any job.
However ,a one man and his van operator NEEDS to charge more than this to make a living. Because he is simply exchanging time for money.
A business running 2 or more cc vehicles can often afford to lower the hourly rate and still turn a healthy profit for the owner.
I do other services such as fire and flood work, and my rates can go as low as £15/hour per man, however there may be 20 people on site , so I figure if I net £5/hour for each of them over a 10 hour day then life is ok.
Going back to carpet cleaning, I do not get hung up about a rate per ft, The carpet cleaning business is about hourly rates and net profit, gaining and retaining customers. Not about an obsession with sq ft pricing, that is simply an american concept a few people over here have latched on to.
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Hi "Dove"
A realistic approach to the value/charge issue.
First, NCCA/IICRC.
I'm a strong believer in the NCCA, and to a lesser degree IICRC, but rarely will the consumer search you out because you are a member, or even be aware of it's existence, BUT it is another tool which you can use successfuly in your presentation (using a leaflet perhaps) to help you SELL your services. The consumer then has another reason to BUY from you and with confidence in your professionalism.
As for pricing, I'm in a priviledged position of being able to focus on my own pricing structure, not that of others. I only offer one standard of work ie the full monty of whichever system I choose to use (the customer doesn't have a choice). For stand alone systems, I cost at from £1.60sqM commercial. For rinse/extract I'm looking at from £4sqM for residential. Combination systems for excessive soiling/problems are costed accordingly, so too for out of area jobs. A site visit to quote carries a 20p premium.
Upholstery from £160 for a 5 seater. Todays was £185.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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how much we charge per sq/ft is meaningless its what we walk out of the house with in a set time, you could call it our hourly rate.
too start we need to realise why we are in the house in the first place, to give a perceived level of cleanliness often this is a visual perception 'the carpet looks clean' we could do what Ken does and do 'the full monty' or we could wizz across it with a bonnet, both could give the same perceived result, the carpet looks clean but ken takes an hour the bonnet takes 30mins. both earn £100
this an extreme example but to use Ken as an example again ;) he charges £4/yd I charge £3/yd ken give the full monty, I only do a 3/4 quarter monty (pre-spray/rinse) both give the same level of clean, but with me I earn more (because I'm quicker) and the customer wins because they pay less....... everyones a winner!!
so we can follow IICRC guidelines and do the full monty but if we don't need too are we doing a misservice to the customer.
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Usually price it at £80 inclusive p/h. I often find measuring is unfair as all jobs are different.
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I think for commercial cleaning (offices/open space) Jason your price is ok, I feel you could even get away with more depending on your location. The thing is you have employees working at an hourly rate as oppose to most carpet cleaners on the domestic front which consist of one man and a van or one man and one worker. But you have just given me some food for thought, maybe I should employ someone to do the cleaning and I do the marketing and selling - cheers Jason.
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Pricing is a personal issue.
If your starting as a newby and charging cheap rates to get the work....you'r digging a hole in the ground because the custy database that you'r building will be the lower end of the market.
Once your established and your charging 25 to 50p per sq ft etc, you may loose many of you'r past customers based on price.
Many custy are not so price conscious and just want a good job doing at a fair price.
If you'v invested a lot of money, and most of us have, we need to get paid a fair price.
If someone is charging .17 a sq ft, they may as well be working for someone else and not have the hastle of being self employed.
John
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Mike I really would like to hear Ken's view on your approach, is 3/4 monty the same result as full monty?
What about the cleaning science? Surely you are leaving a bit more behind than Ken, so Ken's customer pay for the full monty which is more than the 3/4 monty which is fare enough, but surely Ken's customer also get a better service and a cleaner carpet. Also Ken needs to do less jobs than you in order to make a decent days pay, if both of you had the same itinerary everyday no matter how fast you were Ken would be better off.
I accept that perception plays a part and what the customer sees is a carpet looking clean but is it a clean carpet that you are leaving the customer with or just a perception? I don't support that approach at all the customer pays for carpet cleaning not perceptions. The perception should reflect the reality, the truly cleaned carpet.
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I also do not aim at a particular demographic, I will do work in any house from rough social housing to the largest country estates , and all points in between, I have a smart logoed image, clean uniformed staff, tidy equipment and procedures for every function written for staff and customers alike.
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John my sentiments exactly, it doesn't make sense but I see adds like that everywhere on the net. I was just thinking there must be a secret I don't know.
Cheap don't work John, look at gas prices remember a couple months back everyone was on the telly telling us shop around and find cheaper suppliers, EDF was one of the cheapest and they were the first to become the most expensive as the cheap stance almost killed the company. Then today British Gas 37% rise after they tried to go cheap not long ago. NO CHEAP AINT WORTH IT
The rising cost of living and transportation doesn't justify cheap and cheerful. I like a professional job, done properly with pride. I guess I will just have to carry on and hope my other Technician colleagues realise that cheap perceptions isn't the way forward.
Thanks guys for your feedback
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Guys
This a great way to show how you can play the price shoppers game and bet the splash and dash. if you use "plan" or in other words differant specs you will give the prospect two or three differant prices that they can fit to their budget and in the same breath tech them not to compare price with other carpet cleaners as everyone provide differant types of service.
prospects think that all carpet cleaners are the same the only way to teach them other wise is by plan selling.
I with you all on the hourly rate we must know what we need to earn each hour to make a profit. this helps use set marketing budgets etc. but as has been said that our business. two side to every coin.
A good eample in a quote we did today for a prospect with cat sick. she been quoted £50 for the job. we explaned that she needed to know what she was getting for that money. as it sounded like it was just going to be a top pile clean.
we know because we asked that the sick was down to the underlay. we explaned what needed to be done and what our charge was. if she had used the cheap guy and the odour was still there after does not look good on us aas carpet cleaners.
my point is that people need to know what they are getting for their money then they can tell if it gives them value. which is what all customers are looking for. they think they are looking for cheap, but value is what they really want.
respect
ian harper
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Well good luck gentlemen. Wonder if you will still be preaching the same gospel while people like Ken and Mike drive past your van sitting in your driveway.
John
Tell me one employer, apart possibly from deep sea diving, who will pay you over, or anywhere near £50 per hour. What a stupid comment.
robert m
Dove'
An equally stupid analogy.
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i wont get in my car for less than £50
doesnt matter if its a doormat to clean or a single room the cost is still £50
dont charge by the meter or foot........i work it how long it will take me.......average 30/50 per room
i like to earn £50 ph and very often achieve this..........if you cant earn £50 ph cleaning carpets the you must be doing something wrong.........
p.s would like to add that i clean carpets part time....but so far this year with my PROFITS i have had holiday to australia, bought a brand new car, new top of the range lap top.......and i still have 5 months left to earn
not bad for a partimer ;D ;D
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We all have different commitments and overheads, the guys that charge £50 for a suite are probably semi retired no mortgage, van paid for, machine paid for, minimal advertising as dont need loads of work. So out of that £50.00, £45.00 ends up in the back pocket. Another guy charges £120.00 for the same job, by the time hes paid all his outgoings he is left with £45.00.
Does this mean that the first guy didnt do just as good a job?
ITS NOT WHAT YOU EARN, ITS WHAT YOU ARE LEFT WITH AT THE END OF THE WEEK THAT COUNTS!!!!!
Mark
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i'd have too agree with you mark
i have very little or no over heads so more of the money is mine!!!
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Carlton
Not a stupid analogy at all, I would never as a self employed person price myself as an employed person. Companies don't pay £50 an hour they charge that and more then they pay £6.50 an hour to an employee. They like me and you and all other self employed have to think about their costs. take a look at markpowell simplified breakdown, then think of all the other costs involved and then tell me £50 an hour is too high, compared to some guys I know that is low.
Just think of the cost of driving that van around and think how much of your profit it's eating then think of the retirement pension you are trying to build up and then think how long before you can retire ;D
You know how many machines are at one of my local repairer uncollected after been brought in for repairs. I will ask him if I can mention his name on the forums because he has loads of stuff that can be used as backup or first time buy. Some good quality machines Ashbys and Prochems included. So where are these cleaners, retired? I don't think so, they didn't get their pricing plans and business plan right.
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If you are on min wage then regular cleaning all day long for £150 a day sounds good, even if it costs you £75 a day to run the other £75 a day is still better than the £45 a day you would have got.
Shaun
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Dovie mate, the point I'm making i I can do an equal clean as ken ( although he might not agree ;) ) without doing the 7-8 cleaning process ken will use.
so I can earn more over the same amount of time. I could do one job and earn £350 or 2 jobs @ £175 it might sound better doing just one job but is it fair for that one customer to pay £350 just because I can't be bothered to travel to another job
its getting a bit deep but hopefully you get the point.
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Mr Halliday has a knack of cutting the crap out and just stating the facts, so I have cancelled my long winded comments and will just say. I agree with Mike.
robert m
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Look at the statistics, how many domestic jobs do you do at £350?
It's easier to find 2 jobs at £175, Ken obviously has marketed himself well over the years but if he were a younger man with a bills to pay I wonder if he would do the 1/2 day or 1/2 week method he uses now? (I have this beef with Ken evry 12 months or so, but it's not personal Ken ;D)
Selling carpet cleaning can be more of an art than doing it, there are fantastic cleaners out there that are struggling because they cannot find work and/or just can't get the price their work deserves.
Shaun
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We all keep mentioning Ken, he'll start to get paranoid :D :D
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A lot of our pricing problems come from the "splash & dash" brigade. I had a leaflet in my letterbox today "standard lounge from £9.00" then the extras were listed stain removal £2.00 per stain etc etc. My minimum charge is usually £55.00 and I do not charge extra for stains. Commercial starts from £2.50
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Jasonl
How many staff would you say youd need to make the same profit as a £80k + turnover sole trader. Cleaning staff and admin staff.
I like your concept although £40 is very low but as you say you need more for a sole trader.
For the rest of you all theres no right or wrong only what you can get the customer to pay.
Mark
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Shaun
I'm not a typical business model as I have lower personal and business overheads than most, so I know where your'e coming from. I don't see your comments as being personal, but just highlighting my position so that others don't follow without consideration.
As for Mike's routine of 3/4 monty, with his system and equipment I would expect us both to achieve similar standards of clean. But whether he offers the same level of eco-friendliness as me and a quaranteed Woolsafe Approved service as me I don't know.
I think that what this thread highlights is that we all have different needs, costs, marketplaces and ambitions. That's healthy. We have many different ways of costing our work. We have different ways of adding value to our work. Our business' are at different stages of development. But most importantly, some of us have higher levels of confidence not only in our ability as tradesmen, but also as businessmen. By educating the new(er) starts of what's achievable as a business is a positive way of helping our industry to not only thrive but also flourish and grow. That has to be a positive thing to do.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Ken
Are you saying some people have bigger heads than others ;D ;D
But you are right it does depends on Confidence.
Problem that a lot must overcome is telephone qoutes as It is very hard to convince of your supperior cleaning powers without people seeing you in action.
hence i suppose the famous Free Room offer.
For instance today the customers were amazed about how good helpful and what a miricle worker I was, but if i had not closed her and allowed her to phone someone else she would never had known and I would not now have the potentential to sign up three Football Teams
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Ian
Three football teams? Are we talking fantasy league? Well anyway I have sign up with the daily mirror fantasy football manager they changed the name this season. Lets hope I win some bucks I need to retire early.
Oh, Hello Affordable Clean - that guy is a Liverpool fan. I support the GUNNERS so there it is conflict of interest. How did the IICRC leather result go? I passed and then completed Alan's LTT, good stuff son. Anyway good luck this season.
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dove
90 % average pass, 100 % on ID, let meself down on history but i'll live with that, gonna do the rest with ltt in september if there not all ready booked. sorry about your early exit from the champs league last season, better luck this year me old gooner, or young gooner, whatever the case maybe.
get a tenner on el nino for top scorer this coming season, its a cert.
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just a tenner on el nino :o............with robbie keane feeding him clever balls i'd expect him to score 35+ this season ;D ;D
btw
is anyone thinking of doing the fantasy football league on here as last year ???
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after giving a price of £300 the other day, the lady asked how long it would take to clean
i said about 2.5 to 3.5 hours
OOOOOOOOOOhhh thats sound expensive then she said
Tradesmen around here can only charge £150 per day
says she stood in her bloody great farmhouse
???
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Sounds about right Colin. But that's for labour only. Materials and consumables are extra. They probably only have a bagfull of hand tools and a van. A CC is not only supplying labour, but supplies too. Thers's about £20k of van and kit investment for a typical porty owner, and perhaps £30k plus for a T/M. These are expensive to run and maintain, they depreciate and need replacing. serious reinvestment in the business is ongoing. You can't always compare one trade with another.
Now you'll have an answer the next time this objection pops up ;)
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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colin, what have you quoted her for, job wise?
derek
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6 dining chairs :D
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I started by aiming for a daily amount first it was £50 per day then 70 then 90 now I try and do at least 150 per day. ( i have very few overheads) Ive recently started EOT cleans too so I get 400 some days. I dont bother with per hour prices to be honest.
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I start at £3.45/sqM and add on according to soiling, furniture moving etc. With protector £5-£6/ sqM easily attainable.
Suites vary from £125 upwards depending on amount of loose cushions , soiling etc.
Twice this week customers have said (after seeing the results)i should charge more!
Having said that i do get the ones that expect a room done for £20 or suite for £35....these are NOT my customers but someone elses.........
Went to quote for a smallish bungalow last week only 25 SqM of carpet they had had someone to do them just a month ago - charged £15! All the stains had re-appeared.
The same people are quoting £40 for a 3 bedroom house. Their main business is car valeting. Anyway i got the job at my rates.
My advice - don't go cheap guys!
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after giving a price of £300 the other day, the lady asked how long it would take to clean
i said about 2.5 to 3.5 hours
OOOOOOOOOOhhh thats sound expensive then she said
Tradesmen around here can only charge £150 per day
says she stood in her bloody great farmhouse
???
The more they got, the less they want to spend
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pricing is a matter of whatever works for you, but if your never get knocked back on price your charging to little!
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Ken
Are you saying some people have bigger heads than others ;D ;D
But you are right it does depends on Confidence.
Problem that a lot must overcome is telephone qoutes as It is very hard to convince of your supperior cleaning powers without people seeing you in action.
hence i suppose the famous Free Room offer.
I like the free room idea :)
For instance today the customers were amazed about how good helpful and what a miricle worker I was, but if i had not closed her and allowed her to phone someone else she would never had known and I would not now have the potentential to sign up three Football Teams
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Nobody has considered the regional differences in price.
In the north people will not or can not afford to pay the same as in the south as incomes vastly differ.
Saying this i do appreciate that the cost of living in the south is higher.
As for what you charge it is a very personal thing as 1 guy may work smarter than another or as many have stated have lower overheads.
Having been cleaning carpets for 17 years now i am of the opinion that some carpet cleaners out there string the job out in order to inflate the price.
John
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I start at £3.45/sqM and add on according to soiling, furniture moving etc. With protector £5-£6/ sqM easily attainable.
Suites vary from £125 upwards depending on amount of loose cushions , soiling etc.
Twice this week customers have said (after seeing the results)i should charge more!
Having said that i do get the ones that expect a room done for £20 or suite for £35....these are NOT my customers but someone elses.........
Went to quote for a smallish bungalow last week only 25 SqM of carpet they had had someone to do them just a month ago - charged £15! All the stains had re-appeared.
The same people are quoting £40 for a 3 bedroom house. Their main business is car valeting. Anyway i got the job at my rates.
My advice - don't go cheap guys!
Sorry to pick Jacko. but from what I have seen, most instances of stains coming back are caused by the offending substance penetrating the pile perhaps even the backing and underlay. unless you can lift the carpet and flush out everyting it can happen to anyone regardless of price.