Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: derek west on July 29, 2008, 01:10:17 pm
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i am not a member of the ncca.
however i was trained by the ncca, i have since found out that i am not allowed to say i am trained by the ncca.
i find this very hard to believe that the ncca can take my £300 pound, train me, then say i am not allowed to say they trained me unless i then pay a further £200 quid, i wasn;t told this when handing over my money.
ive got gcse's from hartford high schooland they dont say i cant tell anyone where i got them from.
customer! "where were you trained"
me! "i'm not allowed to tell you"
i am not lying wheni say i was trained by the ncca so what gives them the right to say i cant mention them in my advertising, they took my money.
do they really have the right to stop me advertising i was trained by them, i know i cant use there logo, thats fair enough but saying i'm trained by them, surely that woldn't hold up in court, do i have to put a sticker over there logo when showing potential customers my certificate of training.
has anyone challenged this as i feel hard done by, i was trained by prochem but thought the ncca training certificate would be more beneficial, how wrong was i?
i'm thinking of doing a hard floor course with the ncca but if the above is the case then i may as well go elsewhere.
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Derek
Obviously you are concerned about this as you have posted on another forum.
You probably not going to get a definitive answer on the forums.
Maybe the best thing to do is contact NCCA and ask to speak to the leagal secretary (or whatever title).
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got a reasonablly good responce of the other forum, just thought i'd see what advice this one has to offer before i contact them, pretty sure they cant do anything about it, but if they can then i wont be training with them again and i want my money back. its not like i'm lying but lets see what others have to say on the matter, thats what forums are for joe. epecially for guys like me who know bu@@er all.
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The only thing the ncca can stop you doing is using the logo it has a copy wright on it i think.As for telling customers who trained you and showing them the proof i don't think so.
Tony
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Hi Derek
I'm not a legal expert but logic would suggest you can say you were trained by the ncca, but cannot give the impression that you are a member.
As long as this is clearly stated on any literature I cannot see a problem.
Cheers
Doug
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I am relatively new to carpet cleaning. Just asked a few qs on training with the ncca. Now this post. This has definatley made me rethink and never going to join the ncca!
best of luck
Dapper
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when you attend NCCA course
Do you get a Certificate
So when customer asks what training have you had or as part of your sales Presentation show your Certificates
I do not think they are happy with you putting NCCA trained in Logo.
NCCA has a compliance Officer he will be on their Web Site
phone him up and ask him thats his job.
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will do ian, just getting some feedback first.
my thoughts doug.
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Derek
How do you think you propects will feel about you when they check up to see if you where trained by the NCCA and find that you feel you dont need to invest in an on going training program with the NCCA?
it just like telling them that you dropped out of school.
if you are investing in yourself then use whatever program you are on. it does not make sence to tell you propects a negative about yourself.
Dapper, anyone thats anyone in carpet cleaning is a member, all the company's tat provide us with products feel its a good idea to be linked to the NCCA. that speaks for itself.
respect
Ian Harper
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I would not ask them, I would say I was NCCA trained on my literature and websites. If you phone them they might say no, if you carry on anyway the onus is on them. Really cannot see them taking action even if they wanted to, you are stating a truth after all.
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Derek you have spent daft money setting up your business , You have a very professional set up there mate, is it worth trying to deceive customers for the sake of £ 250 a year I don't get a lot of work off them but I'm sure being a member helps me get work
John
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I am relatively new to carpet cleaning. Just asked a few qs on training with the ncca. Now this post. This has definatley made me rethink and never going to join the ncca!
best of luck
Dapper
Dapper
You are relatively new - Yes.
Best advice I can give at this moment is never dismiss anything.
You might not like something you seen or heared of "today", but "tomorrow" it might be the very thing you need, but if you have closed your mind to it, it may not open to it.
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john, i have spent daft money setting up this business, but thats how i sell myself, people on here keep saying its a cut throut business so without standing out, you don't really stand a cat in hells chance, theres a lot of guys starting up on here with a £500 quid sec hand machine thrown into the back of a laguna, and i wish them all the luck in the world, but really, deep down all there gonna do is take a few jobs of the other guys, nothing sets them apart. its not the old days anymore. theres less carpets, theres more choice to diy. without my set up i'd be getting a few jobs here and there, the set up ive got is memorable, its in your face, it oozes quality and affordablility. thats my angle, starting out in business, you have to have an angle unless youve been going 20 years. i'm not saying you have to spend loads of money like me, and if i could of thought of a cheap angle, believe me i would of done so, but either way you need an angle that sells yourself.
i'm not decieving my customers in anyway what so ever, i have been trained by the ncca and enjoyed every minute of it, just because i'm not a member doesnt mean i'm decieving my customers, if asked i would tell them "i could be a member but i' wouldn't be so affordable" (tongue in cheek,) and as long as i can promote my business as trained by the ncca then i'd recommend there training course, it was very easy to follow and very enjoyable, so was the prochem, so was the cleansmart and the ltt, if i was worthy of advice for a start up i'd say training was essential and the more you get the more confident you can be to your customers, my other advice would be, make sure your giving your customers something that stands out from your competitors,
ian
the ncca do not vet there members once theyve been trained, theres no ongoing training, other than paid for.you dont have to retrain every so often, you dont have to have health and safety certificates, in fact you could go to the training and fall asleep and pass the test, then show your insurance and bingo your a member for life as long as you cough up. ive toyed with becoming a member and still may do so, but that will be purely to get work from them, allthough from some of the comments ive had from others, i doubt i will, maybe the ncca should spend some of that membership on SEO cos there no where to be seen when you type in carpet cleaners in your area. and theres no excuse for that when city-visitor and zettai can beat them and there nothing to do with carpet cleaning.
bye eck, is that the time.
sorry guys, ive been sleep typing again.
derek
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Try tapping in NCCA on a National search (with no town or area) because that's what the customer will do, it's the National Carpet Cleaners Association after all,not the Birmingham Carpet Cleaners Association or any other town.
Personally, I think the fewer carpet cleaners that join in my area is a good thing, it makes my client conversion rate better!
S
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If you want to set yourself apart The NCCA is just the start.
You could invest in Rug Courses leather courses Take additional exams then there is hard floor in fact there are so many certificates you need to make you a true fully trained member of the cleaning community the mind boggles .
But if you have several it proves your own going commitment.
My personal view is The guy with a good quality secomdhand machine can do just as good a job as anyone with the high end equipment. Its also about who you know.
Its about your Attitude to your Customer. Going the Extra Mile Attention to detail etc that sets you apart .
its about the clothes you wear the way you conduct yourself inside and outside the house.
Indeed the way you behave in your Commumity
Your marketing etc etc
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Come off it Spencer, you know enough about the web that when Joe Public wants their carpets cleaned they do not type NCCA into Google. They type "carpet cleaner london" or wherever, but never ever ever NCCA.
If it was not for this forum I would not know what the NCCA is, let alone anyone outside the cleaning industry.
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spencer, go into town and ask 100 people,"if you needed a carpet cleaner and your only means of getting one was google, what would you type in"
i'm guessing, and this is just an educated guess, out of the 100 that tried it, i'd say about, well rough guess, and remember this is just an estimasated gues, give or take a few, i'm guessing that ABSOLUTELY NONE OF THEM WOULD PUT NCCA.
there is NO seo involved with your search term. if i had a web site called bigbadbuns.com and you typed in bigbadbuns, i'd be in the top 3 gauranteed.
ian,
totally agree with everything youve said but if everyone is doing that, and lets face it, if youve got competition, they must be doing that to, then you must agree with me that you still need and angle, a free cake with every clean, we clean your carpets while naked, or dressed as spiderman, ok, these are just to get my point across, (badly) but you get what i mean, and i think you'll agree that turning up in a laguna, is not the best angle to start
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If they want to find a body like Corgi or similar that relates to carpet cleaning then they will find it that way, some people know about the association and some don't butI always tell people when I am quoting for a job, if the previous or even next carpet cleaner comes along, when replying no, leaves the job with us, more often than not. If you use it to your advantage, its a priceless tool.
I do agree with Ian, that if you want to be taken seriously, then the NCCA is a good idea.
S
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Derek I'm not knocking you for going out and investing in your business trust me that truckmount is the best bit of marketing you have ever done , I know because I did the same as you about 15 months ago that's how long I have been going I don't even know what a porty is . Trust me that ncca membership does work , tomorrow morning first job , I was the dearest out 3 quotes but I got the job , showed customer equipment I wound be using , then explained to her about the benefits about using a ncca member I finished my little presentation to customer by saying to customer , how can I compete on price with some numtie with 500 quids worth of equipment from B&Q
John
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Sounds to me like the customer was impressed with your truck mount more than your NCCA membership though ???
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I have never had a customer ask me about the NCCA in 8 years so as far as i am concerned the NCCA do not do enough to get recognised
Mark
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Garyj when you know you have got a price shopper it's worth pointing out things like insurance etc Whats happens if someone damages your £1000 tv
explain to customer they should't buy a service on price alone
John
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must admit john, i agree with gary, i show all my customers the truckmount and on carpets to date, ive got 100% hit rate on quotes, the only one i havent got is when i quoted over the phone. so just for the pedantics out there, 99% hit rate.
i do think its wrng that the main body in britain for carpet cleaning hardly ever comes up in search, my betting is theyve never had there site optimised, all though i could be wrong,
but if i'm right then thats not good news for the future of the ncca.
and all though i'm giving the ncca a bit of a ribbing, i'm not ruling them out, i just think maybe they need a wake up call that drags them out of the dark ages.
seo, national press, what about a tv commercial, lets face it, the more exposure they get, the more members they'll get and then the less the so called splash and dash brigade will get work, just my opinion, but what do i know, i'm just a newbie. derek
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Derek
Bit surprised you never done your homework so why beat up on NCCA. ;)
John
You haven’t got a back-up machine. ???
Len
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Len no why do you ask
John
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sorry clinton no portie i cound do with a back up machine , but not got any spare pennies at the moment
john
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The National Carpet Cleaners Association name and the NCCA logo are Registered Trademarks. You need permision to use them. Permission is given to those who have completed the required training, shown proof of Public and Treatment Liability Insurance, paid the membership fee and been accepted as members by the Board of Directors.
When you attend the NCCA Training Course, you will sign a form whereby you agree not to use in any way the Registered Trademarks without permission. But even without this signiture, the law covers the use of Registered Trademarks and successful prosecutions have been made against persistent offenders.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Derek do a search for Carpet Cleaning.
Ncca does a good job considering its run by volunteers with a couple of admin staff.
If you sell the benefit of membership to your custys it works.
I always make a few hundred a year from direct leads.
IMO all carpet cleaners should support the industry's Trade Association.
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Ken , I've got 2 local competitors both claiming to be members of the ncca , is there anything that can be done about it
John
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John
Check if they're on the database on the NCCA website. If not phone the NCCA Office on 0116 271 9550 and report them. You will need evidence such as adverts, flyers etc. If it's a customer who has been decieved, then they will need to make a complaint.
Safe and happy membership :)
Ken
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John
With the up-most respect why do you get rid of your porty? ???
Derek
The is the key just use NATIONAL CAPRET CLEANERS ASSIOSTION NO ABRVEATION ;)
Len
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Hello Ken,
Derek did ask the question could he say he was NCCA trained and not use the logo.
Surely the answer to that has to be yes!
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Len I've never had a portie , I could do with one as a backup plus sometimes I come across jobs with no access , or I have to turn down flat work etc ,
John
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The NCCA logo is a trademark as is the words National Carpet Cleaners Association
He could say trained by the leading carpets cleaning industry's Trade Association in the UK.
He then does not have the mention the NCCA.
Ray
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just typed 'carpet cleaning' into google, the NCCA was at the top of the page, the first free listing.
anything can be used as an advantage when doing quotes, if you know how to sell it.
the best one is being a Limited Company ;) ;)
tell the customer , nowadays when cowboy companies can change there name every week its reassuring to know there are some reputable companys that can be trusted, as a Limited Company , all our company details are logged with companies house and can be checked on the official government website'
this (I think) sound better than saying I'm in the NCCA, most people have heard of companies house
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So for a tenner I can see how much you make ;D
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why pay a tenner, just ask me ;) ;)
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I'm doing the NCCA course next week as I intend to become a member.
I'm a firm believer in supporting your own trade organisations, I do it with the NICF.
If you're not a member and you have no desire to be a member then what is there to complain about ?
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I just Googled NCCA as well, and there are other organisations using "NCCA" as an abbreviation. That tells me it is NOT registered or if it is then no body gives a hoot.
I bet no one will come out and say Derek cannot say he was NCCA trained in his literature or website and if he did what could they do anyway?
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How much do you make then Mike :'(
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I'm joining the NCCA
National Christian Counselors Association :D :D
I've always wanted to be a counselor, bet it pay better than being a carpet cleaner ;)
Gary are you talking gross or profit? but HH & Son Ltd made 48k and 17k
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sorry ive been away, just got back from liverpool, there was a flood in blockbuster video, the maintenance company rang me and asked if i could extract, said yes, they said how soon, i said im on my way, they didnt even ask if i was insured (which i am)never mind ncca, ive listened to all thats said, im sure i can say im ncca trained as long as i dont use the logo, i will ring to confirm this with them, if they say no i cant, then i wont but i will not be going on the hard floor course or the spotting course which i planned to go on soon with them, its there call. thanks again for everyones input, it was very interesting and valid arguements were put by both sides, top banter if u ask me. cheers guys
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If you attend an NCCA training course and sign to say you will not use the name or logo without being a member, it means just that.
For the reasons pointed out above about the acronym ncca, that isn't registered by The National Carpet Cleaners Association, just the name and the logo.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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ken.
take a look at my website.
www.affordablecleaners.co.uk
am i breaking any rules?
derek
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Hi Derek
Best thing to do is contact the NCCA Office on 0116 271 9550. You'll find them very friendly and helpful, and they'll be able to check as to what you signed to agree to.
I would be sceptical about the certified aspect, but not being involved at board level these days, I don't know whether you receive a qulaifiaction certificate or an attendance certificate.
Give Katie or Lewis a ring.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Oh well I mention the NCCA in one of my topics and well isn't there a heated debate?
Well you can say that you are NCCA trained however the reason for them been a bit uptight is because if you use them to sell your products and then mess up the custy can call them and request information about your company and claim to training and skills, because they are a trade association. Now if you aren't a member then they can't advise the custy or yourself. Plus custy's have a way of reacting to bad results, the next cleaner they use will be a true NCCA member however they wont want him because of their experience with you.
Now these two stories are true and it happened to the same Technician, I met a guy at a cleaning course at Alltec he use to have a SafeClean franchise but he quit that. He cleaned a pub carpet and it shrunk, he had no professional body behind him and he didn't know who to call, however, someone told him to call Paul Pearce which he did and the problem was resolved over a pint.. Now that isn't the entire story but it's that experience made the Technician a) did a professional cleaning course and b) joined a professional body.
Now this said Technician cleaned a customers sofa prior to the pub incident and had the customer on the phone the next day complaining about a spot or stain where the Technician cleaned (he had a spot job on the sofa) when the Technician went to the customer he cleaned red lipstick and ended up with blue stain or colour run, however it was blue. He was not a member of any association then and so he replace the furnishing on his insurance (with a 250 excess). I had the honour of trying to remove the stain or colour run at Alltec hands on school and we tried everything even none Alltec chemicals and it didn't move. I was convince at first sight that the stain was cause by someone sitting on the damp sofa with blue denim and the sofa had a high cotton fibre build so the dying was permanent and nothing could be done.
Had this Technician been a member of the NCCA or IICRC he could call for an expert and get help and advise that could would cost him less than the insurance claim.
Listen JOIN the NCCA or IICRC and consider joining the FSB. I am saying this from experience the FSB is good. Now you don't have to join anything and there are CCs out there doing there job for a number of years and nothing has ever happened but it's the risk you take and you seem as though you are trying to portray and deliver professionalism. I am with all three of them, should a customer try and pull a fast one then they are in for a shock. London is not a city to play with not sure about your location and what people are like.
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I know of a carpet cleaner in west yorks who advertises using the NCCA logo, i know he is registered because i have looked on the NCCA website. However he has 2 or 3 guys who clean for him and they are not NCCA.
I have been at this game years and no customer has ever asked me anything regarding the NCCA.
I can prove if requested by a customer that i am fully trained and insured, why pay hundreds of £'s to NCCA to do that for me???
Mark
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it seems to me that everyone who is in the ncca says its good, that it gives you a selling point, but i believe that if you have to explain the ncca to your customers then its not really valid, someone mentioned corgi registered, if your corgi registered you say so and thats it, you dont have to spend the next 5 mins explaining who corgi are, its up to the ncca to get to the point where members can just say there members and the ncca speaks for itself. my truckmount is my selling point, i open the van door and it speaks for itself. customers are gobsmacked and basically say, when can you start. hey but thats just my experience,
i think the ncca is a good thing that just needs pushing to be a better thing.
oh and i was wrong about the ncca's SEO so maybe i'm wrong about everthing else.
my apoplogies, i should of done my homework?
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John
You’re the third person I know of, who jumped in at the deep end, but as you say it can be limited, Porty is useful for pre-spaying when using a LM system. 8)
Dove
It’s funny how the sweat glands work customer totally oblivious, black socks on a white carpet is an other one think it called TV feet :)
I would in some respects join IICRC mainly NCCA if they tested me on my ability :P, but that will never happen as I cross boarders. ;)
Derek
You griped you done the course but cant use their name, as it cost extra. :D
Your Tm would not do some of my jobs and yes-nice bit of equipment but limited 8)
Len
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The NCCA have already missed the boat, and they have had years to catch up and still have not.
I expect I am not the only on here to know that many other people think the same, and a rival is/was on the cards. The same old arguments regarding the NCCA will continue until someone has the money and back up to start something new and better. I have met Ken a couple of times now and he is in no doubt a genuine, honest and expert c/c, he belongs to a generation that did things for love and not money. Not many around anymore. Today it is about money and marketing.
Someone brought up earlier about CORGI, that was a bbrilliant comparison. I know if something happens to my boiler the guy who fixes it has to be Corgi registered, I also know before I make the call it is going to cost me a fortune. Same now with your electricity.
I know carpet cleaning is not a matter of life and death, but it certainly could have been marketed in a way that would show the customer that you really do need an honest trained carpet cleaner in your house and not any Tom, Dick or Harry. An organisation that would have promoted how important it is to your health to have your furnishings regularly cleaned, how it improves their lifespan etc.
I would actually like to belong to an association that was well known, even if that cost me mega bucks per year. As individuals we spend thousands a year on advertising, someone should have tapped into that a long time ago and been the main point of contact.
My guess is the NCCA just never had the money and the industry has become more fragmented than ever.
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Chaps you all seem to strong articulate opinions on the Ncca why don't you join and try to change it from the inside.
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That is a good point Mark, simple answer is I have the benefit of hindsight, and also it is much easier to sprout an opinion sat here on my arse rather than go and actually do something ;)
Most troubling thing for me is, even as professional carpet cleaners we cannot agree on training. In a separate topic it asks "Where do I get training" and there must be 5 different answers and two different organisations to train through.
To my knowledge there is only one Woolsafe, only one Corgi, only one recognised H&S organisation etc. This is a very small industry in comparison and we have at least 2.
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As far as I am aware if you are a member of a trade association you can use thier logo on your correspondence, advertising and vehicles. I am am corporate member of BICSc and am entitled to do that. I believe that legal action has been taken against those who claim to be members of an association or are using a system which is not actually the system they are using. I believe this has happened also in the window cleaning where some have claimed to be using "reach & wash" when they were actually using another system.
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len you said this
You griped you done the course but cant use their name, as it cost extra.
i didnt gripe about using there name. i griped i couldnt say i was trained by them, why should i have to pay extra. effin liberty.
and as for the tm being ltd.
ive not turned a job down yet, and that includes a belgium wilton.
only thing i cant do is the top of a high rise block of flats and your quite welcome to them. happy lugging.
isnt a porty ltd when the waters off or the electrics off
swings and roundabouts len but the trucky wins on points.
derek
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Just to clarify a couple of points. IICRC is NOT a trade association. It is a training and certification body. Corgi also is not a trade association, I suppose it is closer in concept to IICRC. The main difference is that to work with gas, CORGI registration is a legal requirement.
I would ask everyone to consider this. If you were to ask any consumer to name any trade associations for any industry, would they struggle after ABTA ??? I know for sure that I'd struggle to name ANY association not related in someway to our industry. So, is the NCCA unique in this aspect? I think not.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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It's interesting to find so much interest from people who clearly " want to belong " and most seem to want to belong to something that gives them / their business, credibility and recognition within the consumer world.
I've posted before about the industry ( that's YOU ) needing to come up with an acceptable set of standards, eg, novice / trained / technician and getting a training package together and accepted by a regulating authority.
The resulting package would then be available through colleges, nationwide. BICS have been doing this for 40 years.
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Derek
Did you pass the exam? I’m going to start telling my customers I was trained by Mr Ron Tilley of Prochem fame 8)
Valid point (waters off or the electrics off) but I would check first and if it hasn’t got a lift I don’t do it. Fifteen all ;D
Mark
At one time belong to a political party paid my dues the top dog mr TH 85% of members wanted it this way reply it’s my conscience. :o
Ken
Who gave them certification here in the UK ;)
Carlton
Am a bit surprised they haven’t linked up with BICs, I have a family member who makes bog rolls he’s got to do a NVQ. :o
Len
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len
yes i did pass the exam, with certificate,
and how the fork is that 15 all. cojunt arguments only please.
next you'll be telling me a porty can do just as good a job as a trucky.
actually scrap that last bit, don't want the hassle. i know its the operator not his equipment, blah blah blah.
face it lenny babes, if you could you would.
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Derek
Len's got a truckmount - you just haven't learnt how to decipher the languauge on his posts yet - it takes a while ;D
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so he's a tos, oops i mean lovely wind up merchant then.
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Derek
There are porties now that can compete with or match the truckies (entry level not the big dual operators). Ashbys and Alltec make them ass custom built auto fill, auto empty, 400+ psi, 70 - 110 degrees constant, and extra built on vacuum power. Range in excess of 125ft and trust me they work I used one from Ashbys but getting an Alltec simply because they can mould the plactic in my colour, the finish is better than the ninja(smooth and shine) and I can have my company liver on it. HAPPY DAYS!
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dove
so mine mustnt be entry level then,
1000psi
400 ft
240 faren
350 cfm
take a beast of a porti to match that,
derek
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No I'm afraid a porti can't match all of that only some of it but it also requires a skilled operator at the 'stick thing'.
Shaun
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Steve
Thanks now I have to type another reply he me beats by 150ft and possible with a bigger vac hoses ;)
Derek
Good for you but they have ground rules. Not that I have taken much notice of rules :D
Thought we were playing pin pong and most definitely would but still limited, would you turn a job down worth over £6k because of your limitations ;), so some systems are superior it can reach those parts others cant 8), but I’ve spent all that money buying the best. :'( 8)
Dove
auto fill, auto empty is a must on these machines, subject to logistic, ;) last job preferred my 135psi
Len
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Dove
Did I read you also do blinds?
So do I .