Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: *paul_moss on July 03, 2008, 02:31:31 pm
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Any of the guys who have done the wool safe approved trainning course tell me what is the highest ph level a chemical should be for cleaning wool carpets. ( the approved wool safe guide level).
I went to look at a customers white wool carpet that has browning in a number of places, what have you used to try and clean it I ask, out comes a 4 litre container of extraction fluid made by Rug Doctor. It has very little info on it as to the make up of the chemicals or a ph reading, however it has the wool safe approved symbol on it.
I did a ph test on it and it was around 11.5, the customer has used it to the dilution level but it still has caused the browning marks.
I phoned Rug doctor at the customers as the bottle also had a phone number on it, I spoke to a young lady who told me the customer had caused the problem as she had used it as a spotter and not with the rug doctor machine.When I told her that the wool safe logo approves the chemicals prperties and not the machine she then put me onto their onsite chemist ;D He started off very brave until I told him that I have just done a ph test and the level was in my oppinion too high to be wool safe, I asked him if he could tell the chemicals make up and if it had a buffer in it, at this point he refused to comment and passed me back to customer services who have asked for the product to be returned.
Of course I have told the customer to take photos of the carpet and photos of the container labels along with keeping half of the chemical in a sealed ontainer and send ing the other half back to rug doctor.
I await the responce but I am concerned regarding the actual wool safe logo.
Any one expand on this?
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I beleive vanish and 1001 has a Woolsafe logo on it now :P
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Opened a can of worms there Paul. Costs big bucks to have a product "Woolsafe" approved. Quite possibly could be perfectly safe when used in an extraction machine, even a Rug Doctor but diluted and applied to the carpet to remove a stain could have caused over wetting and subsequent browning.
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Paul has she not just over wet the carpet mate, regards terry
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Lots of issues to clear up here!
1. The Rug Doctor Carpet Detergent is, and has been WoolSafe approved for over 10 years. During this period we never detected a pH higher than 9.8 in the concentrate. It was 9.2 at the last annual re-evaluation. What the customer did to her bottle to make it a 100 times this alkaline is a mistery to me.
The product is not buffered, correctly diluted (17ml/l) it should not cause any problems on wool carpets. Very high pH can cause yellowing and in extreme cases fibre degradation on wool carpets. It does not seem to be the case here, the browning most probably comes from the backing which got overwetted during prolonged cleaning.
2. No Vanish products have WoolSafe approval.
3. Some 1001 products are approved, the new TroubleShooter Ultra is NOT.
4. WoolSafe approval does not cost "big bucks". It is the chemical which is approved, not the machine -- if anyone ever tells you their "system" is approved, please tell us so our lawyers can get big bucks off them. We regularly check the chemicals, but cannot monitor how customers are storing or using them.
Dr Agnes Zsednai
The WoolSafe Organisation
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Hi
I have just tested some of their detergent that comes from asda with the hire machine and it has a ph level of over 11ph.
This is really interesting.
Woolsafe, have you seen the damage that 1001 does to carpets, something very strange about approving these products becasue they are leathal in the wrong hands. The wrong hads being the public which they are aimed at and you guys approve it.
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Just looked on rug doctor website. Cant find any mention of woolsafe & msds do not state ph
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Hi Guys
Something is not right here.
Either Paul can't read pH, unlikely.
The customer has changed the product, unlikely.
The product supplied is a different spec to the one tested, possible.
QC failure to detect manufacturing problem, possible.
It would be interesting to see if any random testing is carried out by Woolsafe or if samples supplied are accepted as being representative of product.
Cheers
Doug
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Did not get the impression of over wetting as it was used as a spotter and not soaked in with bucket fulls also the carpet was not hessian backed. I would say by looking at the tinge/stain ( dependant on the wool and dyes used it may look yellow or brown) formulation it was C B from high ph, but that can only be my opinion as cannot be proved either way after the fact.
I like others come across this problem alot with similar products especially the oxidisers,.
To Woolsafe. WHy if you endorse such products not demand that the product should be labeled to state the ph level along with the actual chemical break down ( ingredients).
Also Woolsafe could you answer the question regarding wool safe ph levels both at alkaline state and acidic please.
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I cant believe 1001 is a woolsafe product, the residue left in the carpets with regular use makes cleaning and rinsing out a nightmare.
I will be interested to hear what woolsafe have further to say about this subject.
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True, the times i have tackled a stain where Vanish or 1001 has been used :-X
Good adverts and marketing but thats about it ::)
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Looks like Woolsafe have 'No Comment' ???
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I guess that Woolsafe may work office hours so you won't get an answer until tomorrow, but let's give them a chance to answer without jumping on them.
Unless we (Paul) bring this to Woolsafe's attention then they won't know about it but it definately does need addressing. In the Uk we tend to have largely wool content carpets in the Us mainly man made, perhaps some of the Us products have come over here.
Woolsafe could you tell us how much it is to have a 'product' with a woolsafe logo?
Shaun
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WS Dr it’s got your logo on thought that was worth protecting, assuming that that you done the test today what the life expectancy of the product am sure you tested for that and recommend. :-*
Read somewhere a long time ago temperature plays tricks, so pure clean should be ok on wool ::)
Paul
I take it that you used a ph meter, was it calibrated did you test on say tap water first. Don’t know why I asked that silly question sorry. ;)
Doug
Get you Bunsen burner going ;)
Neil
Golden egg :D
Shaun
If you have to ask you cant afford it :o
Len
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poor Yorkshire lad ;D
Shaun
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Shaun
Is that why you are in my area for two weeks? >:(
Len
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Thanks Shaun, we do work office hours. Also, I said what I could on the basis of the information I had yesterday and wanted to do more investigation before jumping in with another reply.
We do not have an ASDA near us, but I went to Focus last night, which hires out these machines. There were various Rug Doctor chemicals on display. Only the Carpet Detergent had the WoolSafe Mark on. I bought a (1 litre) bottle and in the test this morning it behaved like the sample we got before (pH=9.4, not buffered). So we still do not know what has gone wrong with the bottles you got. Can you send us some with a copy of the label so we can follow it up? How old was it? The top usually has a long number on which starts with the year of manufacture. We have last year’s sample in archive – it did not change. These chemicals should have a shelf life of a few years provided they are not exposed to extreme temperatures.
Generally WoolSafe does not obtain samples from the market (though we have the right to do so in cases of complaint). The manufacturer is obliged under the terms of their licence to supply us with a representative sample from the most recent production, and we believe they do that. It is also in their interest to have the product independently tested to avoid complaints.
Regarding the label: professional products usually have the pH on; but can you expect the average consumer to know what it means? Listing the ingredients is not possible for fear of copying.
Safe pH is not as easy as giving you a number, Paul. We spend a lot of time on this topic at our training course. Basically, wool is not damaged by acids, but a cleaner would not want to handle anything below 2. Alkalis do damage wool on long contact. Above 11 is certainly not a good idea, below that it depends on the buffering, i.e. how easy it is to change. That is why we do a separate test for it. pH 10.5 could be safe if just one drop of acid brings it down. But you can have a product with pH 8 which we reject if buffered, because it can cause colour bleeding.
Neil says "Woolsafe, have you seen the damage that 1001 does to carpets, something very strange about approving these products becasue they are leathal in the wrong hands. The wrong hads being the public which they are aimed at and you guys approve it. "
There are a lot of other things which are lethal in the wrong hands and we cannot stand behind everyone.
Seriously, I do take your point, but we have to draw the line somewhere. There are an awful lot of products out there which would cause damage even in the right hands! 1001 does not have any bleaching or otherwise damaging agents in it and is safe if used correctly. We know about the residue, it is not difficult to rinse out when fresh, but can be a real problem if left – and of course that is when you see it.
Shaun: First approval of 1 product is about £1000, annual cost from second year around £600. With multiple products the “per product” rate goes down. It is not a lot for a healthy company. I can send you all the info if you wish, just drop me a line (agnes@woolsafe.org).
Have a good weekend everyone!
Ágnes
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As a trained carpet inspector, I have learnt that you cannot make a diagnosis from afar. You really don't know until your investigations have been completed, so it is important not to pre-judge.
Having said that, my first thought was as brought up by Len, has the pH meter been recalibrated recently, both for neutral and acid or alkali? Has the pH of the carpet been tested? Is the brown appearance due to the product(s), primary or secondary backing or adhesives? My gut feeling is that the problem is more likely to be due to inappropriate technique/overwetting rather than being product related, but there I go pre-judging again :(
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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There are a lot of other things which are lethal in the wrong hands and we cannot stand behind everyone.
Seriously, I do take your point, but we have to draw the line somewhere. There are an awful lot of products out there which would cause damage even in the right hands! 1001 does not have any bleaching or otherwise damaging agents in it and is safe if used correctly. We know about the residue, it is not difficult to rinse out when fresh, but can be a real problem if left – and of course that is when you see it.
Ágnes
Right did i just read that correctly they "no about the residue" !!!!! Is it not the RESIDUE thats causs US the problem and the customer cos a BIG black stain on the carpet that FOAMS UP as soon as wee touch it makes the carpet dirtier in the first place. sorry but 1001 is a carpet cleaners nitemare..... ita all about big brother and big corporations making money out of joe bloggs....sorry but the product is carp (1001)
Woolsafe......you make us laugh...
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To remove the residue should all Joe public have a extraction machine, because without one it is impossible to remove the residue in total.
This stuff is leathal and you guys support it, That is very odd in my mind.
Any thanks for coming back to us about it, many comapnies would just hide away.
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Hi Guys
Woolsafe obviously work with a fairly narrow set of criteria concerning suitability of cleaning chemicals for wool and it is unlikely that a stricter set could be enforced.
Agnes was making the point about alkalinity being more important than pH, this is something we discussed a couple of years ago.
I did question whether Paul got the wrong result but thought this unlikely with his experience.
First thing is to cross check the cleaning solution's pH.
Cheers
Doug
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As a trained carpet inspector, I have learnt that you cannot make a diagnosis from afar. You really don't know until your investigations have been completed, so it is important not to pre-judge.
Having said that, my first thought was as brought up by Len, has the pH meter been recalibrated recently, both for neutral and acid or alkali? Has the pH of the carpet been tested? Is the brown appearance due to the product(s), primary or secondary backing or adhesives? My gut feeling is that the problem is more likely to be due to inappropriate technique/overwetting rather than being product related, but there I go pre-judging again :(
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
Ken I have never seen any carpet inspector training courses in this country.
How do you qualify to be Inspector Wainwright
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Doug I di the test with a divining rod so it should not be far out ;D.
I am waiting for the answer back from Rug doctor ( i think its a batch that has slipped through), shall keep you informed.
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Ian
I did my Carpet Inspectors training with Woolsafe. The tutor was Dr Eric Brown.
After I qualified there were no local areas available to me, the closest being south of Oxford. So I decided to be independent and offer my services to local contacts only.
If you visit woolsafe.org you'll see a little about the Woolsafe Carpet Inspectors programme. Even if you don't do inspection work, the course is beneficial to us as cleaners. I don't know if the training courses are still running, if not, why not approach Eric directly and see if he's running any more in the future. Maybe if there was enough interest from other CCer's..............
James123
Whilst I agree that over application of many retail products cause us problems, these retail products tend to have a lightening effect on the surrounding carpet and very rarely blackening. However, other home products such as washing up liquid and other stickily residual household formulations can promote resoiling and leave the soiling you mention.
I have stated this before, it's worth repeating and I know there'll be a barage of abuse, but the reality is the truth. I have on many occasions been requested by the UK carpet manufacturing industry to demonstrate on their behalf at consumer shows how best to care for carpets. I demonstrate correct vacuuming and correct spot removal techniques. I ALWAYS use generally available branded spotters, typically 1001 Trouble Shooter (Woolsafe Approved) and I've NEVER had any problems. I treat spilt tea and coffee on a woolblend beige twist. My tools are a terry towel, paper towel, a teaspoon, 1001 and a bottle of water. The problem is NOT the product, but always the user, typically applying far too much product and rubbing/scrubbing too hard. Basically, they panic :'(
SAFE and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Ken you are an expert but in the hands of a consumer this stuff is dangerous to carpets, so meaning it should not be wool safe approved.
For me this is about money and not about a product that is any good at stain removal. I feel woolsafe are looking at the money and not the products ability in the hands of the consumer. Its good in our hands but its not made for us.
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Looked at a lounge carpet today, blue colour, wool. Customer said kids had spilled drink on it, she had tried to clean it but it had gone brown. I asked what she had used. It was a combination of vanish then 1001. closer inspection when I pulled a loose fibre from the stained area the dye was totally stripped from the fibre
Verdict - no point in trying to clean it
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Neil
It's flattering that you regard me as an expert, but yes, I know what you mean.
My point is that these products work. They have instructions on the bottle which, incidentally, I feel could be improved. Many choose to ignore them. So, my point again is that the products work within the limitations of a GP spotter, it's the execution that's at fault.
And this problem of not reading the labels isn't restricted to Joe and Josephine Bloggs. How many so called professional carpet cleaners use the Glug Glug method of dilution? How many of us buy a new electronic gadget or B&Q Flatpack and don't read the use and assembly instructions ::) It's a human failing that the manufacturers and others have little or no control over.
Safe and happy spotting :)
Ken
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Thats right Ken.
When all else fails, read the instructions. ;D
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Warning
'Do not look down truckmount hose while in operation' :o- ;)- 8)
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Ha Ha Ha, Nice one Mike.
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Ágnes
UK manufactures normally give a use by date for example made today 04-07-08 this would translate to be 04-07-09 depending on life expediency so a few that more than two should be on it.
For once I’m on your side I know you can’t police the sheds (trade name for the d.i.y outlets) ;D
Come out with me for the day ;)
Ken
I read all instructing some I understand some I don’t Japanese via German then English :P
Mike
Trip hazarded mines in yellow. ;D
Len
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As always Len, your posts project a clarity that can only be compared to the response of a politician having been asked a difficult question.
You around on Tuesday as I have to go to Ashbys around lunchime. Air movers etc
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When we used to do a lot of insurance stain work you only got pennies if you couldn't remove the stain. It got to the point that on our initial contact with the customer we asked if they had tried to remove the stain and if they had, what with. Answer was always Vanish or 1001. We therefore did not travel to the job and took details of the carpet etc (where practical) for replacement.
Trouble was a lot of them denied trying and when you got there, sometimes a 40 mile drive you were confronted with a bleached area. Could have strangled half of them and was very hard to be polite.
Point is nearly every job we seen where this rubbish had been used the carpet was damaged beyond repair. If something is obviously not going to be used as per instructions it shouldn't be on the market.
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Pete
Only stating the obvious perhaps he was looking at the machine, hate to see a man cry. As it happens wife is taking me to the shed tomorrow, normally I shear away but I’m up for it. ;) ;D
Not sure about Tuesday waiting a phone call probably get it tomorrow when I’m at church ;) don’t you just love commercial give me a call before stetting out.
John
Though were the days. >:(
Len
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To James123:
I am sorry I was not specific about “the residue” of 1001 TroubleShooter. It is not what you describe as “the big black stain foaming up as soon as you touch it” – if it was, it certainly would not have our approval!
You are right we would not be doing our job properly if any of the WoolSafe approved products had that kind of a sticky residue overloaded with surfactants. We test for that and none of the 1001 products (Shampoo, 3-in-1 cleaner or the carpet fresheners) leave that kind of residue. The only complaint we ever had is with TroubleShooter, which has a polymer component, which if left in the carpet can dry to a hard residue.
The problem with this is that it soils less then the surrounding area, so after a while it can show up like a lighter spot. I cannot get into a debate with you about caret cleaning and how to correct what the public spoilt, as you are the one doing it day in day out. That is why we recommend professional cleaning to anyone asking for our advice. But not everyone is prepared to do that, so there is a demand for DIY products. Your very remark about the nightmares you meet justifies the work we do in testing and certifying products that are safe if used correctly. We know that our work encourages manufacturers to improve their products and aim to produce ones anybody can use without creating problems.
Ágnes
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I spoke to Agnes to day about this very same thing. Must say she is a very professional and positive lady with a passion for the industry very similar to ours. ( Agnes thanks for your time today)
The biggest thing here is customer intervention when it comes to stain removal and time and time again the customer either pannics when a spillage/accident occurs or just blatently glugs lots of concentrate into the carpet and hopes for a miracle.
The only thing we can do as Professionals is continue to educate our customers again and again, but it would be nice if the chemical companies did not market the easy stain removal approach so much on tv and alike so customers think it is a magic liquid, also they should label and explian stain removal far better on the product label.
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I agree,
Went to that wine stain today and actually got most of the wine but the state of the carpet from the vanish they had chucked at it was shocking. They have chucked the vanish away and I have left them with a safer alternative and with the right instructions.
Pete
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I agree,
Went to that wine stain today and actually got most of the wine but the state of the carpet from the vanish they had chucked at it was shocking. They have chucked the vanish away and I have left them with a safer alternative and with the right instructions.
Pete
A stanley knife and a pot of glue ;D
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Why does everyone talk about Vanish and 1001 together all the time, as if they were the same?!?
They are separate brands made by different manufacturers in different countries and they have very different properties. It is incorrect to create an association between them. Vanish itself has many varieties, none of the present formulations are WoolSafe approved. Some are far too strongly alkaline, some have other problems. (Also, there are a countless number of Vanish laundry products, any of them could have been used by the customer reaching for the “magic” pink bottle!)
Most of the 1001 range is WoolSafe approved, which means they are safe if used correctly.
This is the message you should give the customer (apart from the obvious: the safest of all is YOU, the professional). Anything else is not helpful and if you tell them they cannot use anything, they will not listen. The message is telling them to look for the WoolSafe Mark on the bottle and/or to look at our website for the most up to date list. There they will find some other products they can try, like Carpet Power, Host, Envirodri…
Ágnes
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Hi Agnes
We appreciate your contribution.
Those of us who link Vanish and 1001 really mean all these types of products , which are no doubt effective and relatively safe when used under lab/test conditions but in practice cause all manner of problems.
Vanish primarily bleaching/lightening and 1001 rapid resoiling.
I always advise customers to use the minimum amount of any of these chemicals and to try and remove as much as possible of the residual cleaner.
Cheers
Doug
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If these companies can come out with all their TV advertising horse manure, then I don't see why when I'm standing next to the customer I can't give her some of mine.
I always infer my stuff is safe, but wouldn't risk anything from the supermarkets, true or not, I'm taking my opportunity.
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A few of the points brought up by recent contributors need some clarification, I feel:
1. When we first started working with carpet cleaning chemical suppliers in the late-1980s there were a number of popular DIY products (1001 Carpet Cleaner, now long discontinued, being one example) that cleaned very well but had a number of seriously bad side effects. Sticky residues causing rapid re-soiling being the main problem. In effect they were little better than dishwashing liquids. As soon as we showed the suppliers what grief their products caused they started reformulating them. Today, most DIY carpet cleaning chemicals produced in this country are OK. Look for the WOOLSAFE Mark! As are those produced in Germany and Australia, and those in the US from the big suppliers. WOOLSAFE certification (which started in 1991) contributed to this improvement in a significant way. However, there are many small (mainly US) suppliers over which no-one has any control.
There were also problems with chemicals imported into this country being too aggressive on wool (blend) carpets, mainly caused by high alkalinity. This problem affected professional carpet cleaners more than householders. Here again, WOOLSAFE testing and certification helped by highlighting those products that should really not be used on delicate fibres. Wool and advanced generation nylon, which are dyed with the same dyestuffs, are both safeguarded by the WOOLSAFE programme.
2. WOOLSAFE was started by specialists from the carpet industry, not the chemical industry. We work closely with carpet suppliers and the chemical companies for the best possible maintenance, thus ensuring happy carpet owners, repeat business for carpet suppliers and as few problems as possible for the cleaners.
3. Believe me: money is not the issue here. If you compare what we charge the chemical manufacturers for the service we supply with what they would have to fork out if they launched a poor product, they get a real bargain from us!
4. The WOOLSAFE criteria for approving or rejecting chemicals were set by carpet experts. They were primarily designed to safeguard carpets and their owners, but as it happens they also protect the chemical suppliers. They are endorsed by leading carpet mills. Some, like Mohawk and Shaw, the two largest carpet mills in the world even have their own WOOLSAFE Approved products to sell to their customers!
All WOOLSAFE tests are based on internationally recognised test methods and standards, and they are both wide-ranging and strict. We don’t want any complaints either!
Something else to think about:
- we work with more than 50 of the world’s leading carpet cleaning chemical manufacturers, many of which have been WOOLSAFE licensees for over 10 years;
- we have tested more than 700 of their maintenance products over the past 17 years;
- there are more than 250 WOOLSAFE approved products on the market worldwide;
- all certified products are checked at least once a year for continued compliance with the WOOLSAFE standards (more frequently in case of a re-formulation).
Check these facts on our website – www.woolsafe.org.
5. Instructions for Use: we look at these too before we approve a product. We try to ensure they are clear, complete and promote safety in use. But at the end of the day it’s up to the user to read them and follow the advice given.
If you want to debate, dispute, confirm or question any of the points made above, I’d be happy to talk to you!
Paul Bakker
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Paul, nice post and well clarified.
When is the next wool safe course?
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Hi Paul
Thanks for your contribution.
Would I be right in saying that your tests have shown that it is alkalinity, i.e amount of buffering which is more important than pH ?
What pH level would you say is the max for an unbuffered solution on wool?
Cheers
Doug
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Doug, sorry it took this long to respond, but I was not watching the site for a while.
Safe pH for wool should be below about 10.5. Please see also Reply #16 on: July 04, back on page 1.
The next WoolSafe training coursewill be on 17th September in Bradford, West Yorkshire.
We are planning to have another one at the National Flood School in Surrey early autumn, and one in Buckinghamshire, subject to demand. So the best for anybody interested is to send us an e-mail with their preferred time and location and we will organise one accordingly.
Paul Bakker
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Why does everyone talk about Vanish and 1001 together all the time, as if they were the same?!?
They are separate brands made by different manufacturers in different countries and they have very different properties. It is incorrect to create an association between them. Vanish itself has many varieties, none of the present formulations are WoolSafe approved. Some are far too strongly alkaline, some have other problems. (Also, there are a countless number of Vanish laundry products, any of them could have been used by the customer reaching for the “magic” pink bottle!)
Most of the 1001 range is WoolSafe approved, which means they are safe if used correctly.
This is the message you should give the customer (apart from the obvious: the safest of all is YOU, the professional). Anything else is not helpful and if you tell them they cannot use anything, they will not listen. The message is telling them to look for the WoolSafe Mark on the bottle and/or to look at our website for the most up to date list. There they will find some other products they can try, like Carpet Power, Host, Envirodri…
Ágnes
Because these are the two products most readily available to joe public,customer will try one does not work next week while doing shopping get the other then that fails they ring us.
The biggest problem with these products is they don't follow the instructions on the bottle either,whether in blind panic or just laziness.