Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Andy Foster on July 01, 2008, 06:54:40 pm
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This seems to be a hot topic for the moment so here's another one.
I have been sent these photos and asked for a price to restore.
It looks to me like straight forward pigmented with either grease or wear causing the blemish.
However, the owner says that the sofa cost them £1500 which would seem a lot for this type of sofa.
Am I missing something here or were they paying over the odds for their suite?
Cheers
Andy
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Andy that's definately pigmented it's a bread and butter one IMO.
Shaun
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Thanks Shaun, thought so but wanted to check.
It looks like grease on it to me but they assure me it is wear, also, just had another email and the custy tried to 'fix' the discolouration by rubbing in shoe polish!
Will I need to strip this out first before recolouring and protecting?
I would go and visit to establish problems first hand but it is in London and would cost a fortune for the extra trip.
Cheers
Andy
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Be careful, those pictures are hard to tell completly, have you any others?
It looks a little like it could be a bicast, if it is you can cleaning ok, but I see scratchs in it . Bicast does not repair/ colour the same as leather.
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The stitching is the same on those bicast chairs Paul. Do the always use that type (and if so is there a reason) or is it just coincidence.
Pete
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Paul may be right but I recently cleaned and colour repaired something very simular but like Paul says check first.
Shaun
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Paul may be right but I recently cleaned and colour repaired something very similar but like Paul says check first.
Shaun
The voice of inexperience ;D ;)
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I thought you was going on holiday!
Shaun
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Not before giving you some stick :P
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Paul may be right but I recently cleaned and colour repaired something very simular but like Paul says check first.
Shaun
Pete that was one of the give aways ( your starting to learn) also the shine and the lay of the leather makes it look bicast, but pictures ar hard and could just be a straight pigmented sofa.
You would not pay 1500 for a bicast sofa unless you have been stuffed. I would expect that sort of cash for a sofa only would be a designer one or a good aniline/nubuck sofa.
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I take your points thank you and I am asking for confirmation of the type of leather before I set foot out of the house to go and repair it.
I would certainly hope that it is not bicast because they were ripped off big time if it is.
They seem the sort who would get designer stuff so hopefully it is a designer pigmented... woudl make my life easier.
Thanks again for the advice.
Andy
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Paul if it is pigmented looks as though the finish is going what do you think is the quickest way of getting rid of that before restoring?
Shaun
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As funny as it sounds, I went into a furniture shop last year and the sales people were selling Bicast leather suites as there top quality furniture, but if I wanted they could get me an Italian leather one if I wanted the cheaper version. Red faces all round when I told them what bicast actually was ;D
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Salesmen are just that, they'd sell deck chairs as top quality as that is how they get their wages.
Shaun
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Derek its very suprising the bull sh it they come out with, especially in terms of cleaning and after care. I have not met one yet who fully understands what he is selling to a customer yet tel them how to look after it.
Shaun, im still waiting for Judy to come on and identify it as a aniline micro pigment :)
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Perhaps her new £10 micro scope can't focus on it ;D
Shaun
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Could'nt resist when Angie showed me this...................looks like bicast, look at the scratches, I don't think you will get scratches like this on pigmented, but I ain't no expert
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I think you can, the photo doesn't tell the full story but if it's a high shine finish then the reflection doesn't give you the 'feel' for the truth.
I have cleaned and repaired a suite like this and my parents have something simular, when the finish breaks down through excessive wear the dye/colour seems to flake off.
The one I did had to be gently sanded to make smooth again before applying colour and coat.
Shaun
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Andy
This certainly has the appearance of a bicast or coated leather. They have a certain look and they are usually styled in very box like designs as the 'leather' cannot be gathered or pleated. Often have the contrast stitching as shown.
If it does prove to be bicast rather than a pigment then unfortunately the damage will be unfixable. Body oils and head grease can break down the finish on bicast very quickly if not protected and once the finish has gone it is impossible to replace it. A bicast is a split leather with a sheet of polyurethane bonded to it. This sort of damage is one of the common problems along with delamination.
If the customer has been sold this as leather there may be a case to be answered by the retailer as it should have been sold as Bicast Leather or Coated Leather (depending on the thickness of the finish that has been bonded to it).
If it is a pigmented leather then you would need to degrease before you tackled any recolouring or refinishing as I think it is grease and body oils rather than simple wear that would have caused this break down of finish, Shoe polish will not have helped!!!!!!!!
Hope this helps
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Don't trust photos for identity. My " guess" is from a sample and discussion on bicast, plus the headboard and chair in my daughter's room.
But, as Shaun says, it might be something else.
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I keep looking at it and the more I do the more I think it could be bicast, it's hard to tell 100%.
I have posted a couple of pics on here on another thread but you can't truely say what leather it is until you go and do your tests.
Shaun
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Thanks so very much to everyone for the advice, I think I am going to ask for the offending cushions to be posted to me before commiting to attempt to repair them, if they are detatchable.
It would be a damn site cheaper than going down there and I could do them and post them back too if indeed they are repairable.
If not, then they have spent as little as possible on trying to get them done.
I consider myself very lucky to be able to draw on you guys's experience, thanks again for everything.
Andy
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I think Roger Koh was making inroads into bicast repairs.
Roger if your reading this any updates?
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Paul,
Here are the relevant products for bicast:
Common to bicast is the easily scuff surface and d’Scuff94™ is the answer.
Routine maintenance is leatherScent’D™, this will reduce general scuff and give a rub resistance to reduce scuffing
Restoration care includes waxEffect95™ that gives the surface a deep tone and eliminate scuff effectively.
Hairline cracks are common in these leathers and leatherBond9D™ is for this purpose.
Repairs which are common on heavy used areas need leatherBond3D™reinforcement with nylon mesh, aluminum mesh or skin4™
The below list are all relevant products for other specific purpose.
Roger Koh
13. Bicast System:
Bonding Aid (1)
leatherBond7A™ is a soft nitrocellulose lacquer emulsion bonding aid to level and remove excess leather bond from
leather surface safely.
Structure Bond (1)
leatherBond3D™ is a medium soft aqueous polyurethane leather bond with good filling for leather structure
bonding repair.
Surface Bond (1)
leatherBond9D™ is a very soft aqueous polyurethane leather bond for flaps, peels, abrasion or scratch.
Stucco (1)
leatherFill90™ is an aqueous high concentrated proprietary compact resin blend stucco for leather filling repairs.
Sub-Patch (1)
skin4™ is 0.4mm thick vegetable tanned lambskin used as a sub patch or as a surface skin repair.
Pigment Color Coat (15)
pigColor64™ is a compact resin blend high performance aqueous color basecoat.
Pigment Top Coat - Gloss (1)
pigTop62G™ is a gloss multi purpose polyurethane aqueous topcoat that is lightfast and non-yellowing.
Pigment Top Coat - Matte (1)
pigTop62M™ is a matte multi purpose polyurethane aqueous topcoat that is lightfast and non-yellowing.
Aniline Dye (9)
anilineDye21™ is an environmentally friendly low VOC aqueous transparent dye that provides more lively and brilliant color.
Adhesion Coat (1)
adhesion73™ is an aqueous compact resin adhesion promoter to improve adhesion for further finishing.
Cross-Linking Agent (1)
crossLinker25™ is a high solid, polyaziridine crosslinker, without the VOC (volatile organic compound) for extra tough topcoat.
Rheology Modifier (1)
thickener48™ is an aqueous carboxylated acrylic co-polymer thickening agent for controlling flows.
Degreasing (1)
d’Grease4.9™ pH value 4.9 is an aqueous leather safe degreaser for all leathers.
Cleaning (1)
clean3.8™ pH value 3.8 is a leather safe aqueous general purpose cleaner for all leathers.
Rinsing (1)
rinse3.0™ pH value 3.0 is a leather safe aqueous mild acidifier rinse for all leathers.
Surface Conditioning (1)
leatherScent’D™ is a non film-forming, non-stick tactile feel conditioner to enhance a draggy feel with a classic leather scent.
Scuff Rectifying (1)
d’Scuff94™ is a pH 6.8 aqueous emulsion aniline scuff rectifier.
Reviving (1)
waxEffect95™ is a hydrocarbon based wax emulsion to revive wax pull-up leathers.
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Surface scratches on Bicast and minir scuffs can be easily fixed using Satin Gloss finish and very minor repairs can be done with BRIT if you have the knowledge to do them. Most products, glues, fillers etc will work on bicast but the results never look brilliant as you are repairing a flat piece of vinyl.
Damage of the extent shown in the photo (if it does prove to be bicast) are unrepairable other than by replacing the panel which would be the only option here as the finish has been completely broken down.
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Bicast has that typical peculiar deep heavy sheen smooth appearance.
Unlike a very shallow opaque look that most pigmented has.
One glance could tell you the difference and only comes in dark colors.
Popular is black, dark brown or red brown, etc.
They are serviceable and repairable why not?
Just because…
They arrive from China (truly a communist country that does world wide trades that outshines the free world?)
It’s Amazing; it comes in container loads pouring into countries all over the world.
Because fundamentally it is a man-made product UK and New Zealand are smart enough to have jurisdiction rule
that it cannot be marketed as “leather”.
All the world is fooled except you smart people!
As I said, UK is one country that has leather institutions that most country looks up to, including myself!
How is it that we are not doing justice to our countryman by not providing the best leather cleaning and restoration services we now know available?
I am still wondering!
Roger Koh
Leather Doctor® System.
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We do Roger!! ;D
Bicast comes in all sorts of colours over here including white.
Repair techniques are tricky and only for the experienced technician as failure could mean you own the suite (somethin to be avoided)
There are several 'tricks' that can be done with Bicast including using a heat gun to help with burnishing scuffs and scratches from the surface coating but once a large area has been worn away by grease and oils as in the photo then this cannot be replaced satisfactorily and it is far better to replace the panel.
There are many 'Bicast' repair kits on the market and most of these are simply a marketing ploy as they are the normal leather repair kits but relabelled for bicast.
As bicast is generally cheap over here customers simply would not pay the cost for the time to do any major restoration work.
The problem really stems right back from the manufacturers/retailers etc who have no real idea: a) about what they are producing/selling and: b) about simple care processes that can done to keep leather and bicast in good condition from day 1 (Obviously the shops have no interest in this as they want to sell more furniture - and it is simply a numbers game to them).
Andy has been asked to speak to the SLTC Conference on this subject later this year.
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Well, looking forward to Andy’s contributions to the world of leather.
An expert like Andy should knows whether the above products list play “tricks that fools”.
Or really they are developed to service the world of “cheap bicast” that common folks still treasure!
Surprising, not a word of pH values comes from him, neither have I heard about fatliquor conditioning.
Leather cleaning and conditioning without the need to understand “pH value” or “structure fatliquor conditioning” is not cleaning genuine leathers but “plastic” coatings, like these cheap “plastic leathers”.
Like to learn from him about the foolishness of pH value and fatliquor conditioning which is so vital to “genuine leathers”.
Is the importance of “pH value and fatliquoring technology” not an extension of the tannery industry that every service technician should know?
Roger Koh
Leather Doctor® System
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Article written by Andy last year in response to leather cleaning and pH values
This is a response to several articles on leather cleaning recently posted on various forums. It has taken some time to compile as we wanted to check all our facts and needed to discuss various points with a tannery, leather technologists and our product research specialists. The views expressed below have been formed over 20 years of leather cleaning and restoration experience and with constant reference to the sources mentioned above.
There has been reference to the IICRC S300 Leather Cleaning Method as a safe and effective guide line. This is an extremely limited over view on cleaning leather and makes no reference to problems that can be created by incorrect assessment of leather condition prior to beginning the cleaning process. There is some good advice there, but too many gaps for it to be a safe guide line with the range of finishes currently on the market. E.g. The S300 mentions the possible use of dry solvents to remove certain soils and stains. I would strongly advise against this unless you are experienced in restoration. Dry solvents (acetones etc.) will almost certainly damage finishes applied to leather surfaces which will then need repairing. To suggest that ‘application of leather conditioners to replenish natural oils’ when you are faced with a dissolved coating is very poor advice and very misleading and dangerous for inexperienced cleaners of leather.
On some forums recently there has been much reference to the pH levels. I find this very confusing and unnecessary. In 20 years of successful cleaning and restoring leather I have never once referred to or been influenced by pH values. My advice would be to use specific leather products that have been tried and tested by your supplier who should also be willing to support you through any problems. The constant reference to pH may lead some cleaning operatives to think that pH is more important than product formulation and can therefore use any cleaner of the correct pH. Leather is NOT a fabric and cleans in a different way for which specific products have been formulated. These would have the correct pH values for the job they are designed for, you and I do not need to worry about them even if we do know them. Strong acids and strong alkalines and dry solvents all have the potential to damage leather finishes, don’t use them for cleaning, your cleaners if correctly supplied will not be of that nature.
Spotting and problem solving in the cleaning process should be done using the same specified cleaning products but with reference to CHAT (TACT) Chemical, Heat, Agitation, Time (see separate article – to follow).
As a general rule and particularly with pigment coated leathers you will only be cleaning the surface or finish so your cleaning process will never come into contact with the actual leather (think wiping down a painted wooden surface) so why is the pH of the leather so important. Things that cannot be resolved in this way are more likely not cleaning problems. Ink, colour loss, fading, finish cracking, permanent staining, surface abrasion, most paints, nail varnish, dye transfer, excessive soil due to body oils, inappropriate use of products etc. are damage not dirt and excessive cleaning without fully understanding the problems, the causes and the solutions is more likely to cause further damage.
Learn what is cleaning and what is restoration and do not let the first develop into the second unless you are prepared to deal with it. It can be expensive if you can’t.
Then we return to the ‘feeding’ ‘conditioning’, ‘nourishing’ topic.
It is incredibly difficult to remove the ‘natural’ oils from leather especially using detergent cleaners so replacing them is totally unnecessary and possibly detrimental on both finished and unfinished leathers. Modern C/T (Chrome Tanned) upholstery leather is a very sophisticated product and has been for decades. The notion that it is something straight from nature that has to be fed and nourished is totally incorrect (unless you are dealing with conservation and restoration in the museum and antique sense). The oils and fats in C/T leather are introduced after the C/T processes have reduced the skin to pure collagen fibre (there maybe a tiny amount of fat left but it is of no significance). The fat liquoring process carefully introduces fats/oils of a specific type back into the leather to coat the fibres, These are balanced to produce the desired end product and are very stable and very difficult to remove. Trying to add more fat/oil etc is totally unnecessary and is of no benefit. On an absorbent leather products used for ‘conditioning’ and ‘feeding’ will soak into the leather upsetting the balance and over time change it to the detriment of the leather. If the leather is non absorbent then these products have no where to go so will sit on the surface, getting slightly sticky and attracting more dirt. If they do manage to ‘get in through the cracks’ the results will be the same as absorbent leathers with the added problem of adversely affecting the bond between surface coatings and the leather. I thought the object was to clean it!!!!!
©LTTLtd 2007
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We do Roger!! ;D
Andy has been asked to speak to the SLTC Conference on this subject later this year.
Please elaborate the "We do Roger!!"
By the way, what is SLTC, date and place of conference please!
Private or public conference!
Who attend this conference.
Roger Koh
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I'd say bicast.
You can tell by the shine and very subtle grain pattern - very flat.
The finish breaking up as shown in the photo is also a very common problem with bicast leathers.
Solution.
1. Wipe with alcohol cleaner
2. Sand smooth
3. Spray on black colourant
4. Spray on high gloss PU finish
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If we accept the above 4 steps as the solution for restoring it,
then we started it as an original bicast and end it as…
A pariah or what?
We will still make this lowly bicast out of its own class!
What a tragic!
It will loose its characteristic as a low quality performer in wear and tear, and its high appearance imitation of the ever classical wax pull-up.
No matter what we do, a third party must still be able to recognize it as what originally it was… a bicast!
Then truly we are a restorer!
Agree or disagree?
Roger Koh
Leather Doctor® System
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www.sltc.org
Shaun
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As I said, you have great institution one like this the SLTC.
I suggest you people invite some of these third party experts to verify what we have discussed here in this forum so far.
What will they think of the level of intelligence here!
Maybe that’s why they are not even here!
And if Andy would be talking substance, why is he hiding the science of leather cleaning here?
I am wondering, double standard?
May someone email the above article to their attention!
Requesting for above article technical verification!
Roger Koh
Leather Doctor® System
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I found the site but there's nothing of real value on it, may be at the meetings but not on the site.
Shaun
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I think we need to get Mr Gribble to decifer Rogers posts. ;D
I like your prose Roger but not when it gets in the way of communication.
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Mike,
Communication is a two way traffic!
The light is green, now’s your turn for I talk too much.
Roger Koh
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Sorry to sound dumb, but what is bicast? ???
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Hi
Bicast is not a technical term it is a descriptive term corrupted from Bayercast (Bayer being the people that invented the product) and used to describe coated or laminated leather.
It is generally constructed by taking a bottom split piece of leather (when leather is produced it is very thick and is usually split into 2 or 3 'splits' - the top piece is where the strength and integrity is) and then a piece of polyurethane (vinyl) is bonded to it. The thickness of this coating determines whether or not it can be called leather.
So bicast is a form of vinyl where a leather split has been used as the backing.
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Roger
The SLTC has a sister organisation in the USA called the ALCA (American Leather Chemists Association) which has a forum that you have appeared on a couple of times.
When asked about re fatliquoring part of their response was
'.........the fatliquors in the leather are covering all the leather fibres making it soft and will remain there for all the useful life of the goods'
and in response to a question about 'conditioning' this was the response
'First there is an issue with jargon here. Conditioning to a tanner normally means moisture control, which can be very critical to fit with leather since moisture tends to expand leather, thus too much moisture and then the piece may dry too small after sewn in place, or conversely a dry piece sewn into place may turn out to be loose and wrinkled when it absorbs moisture from the air.
The use of "conditioners" is a whole empty and useless topic just as you note. Especially with upholstery with a tough finish coat. That is why plastic conditioner is the same as leather conditioner in many of the marketing games. Even though oils and a small amount of moisture are good for leather over time, it can not be delivered in any real sense through these finishes.
Also, as you have noted, this junk is mostly water and little active, useful ingredient. ..............(they have) been found to be nearly all water and little else, but very successfully marketed.
Generally leather loses moisture and lubrication over long periods of time and heavy use, so the treatment would be of value only to replenish lost fatliquor and moisture from baking and rubbing over long periods. Consequently, new leather, stored and handled properly, would only be over treated with conditioner resulting in staining, over sizing, even removal or dilution of fungicides, etc. with treatment......'
and they also pointed out that
'......as we can see from those who have something to sell, they can be very persuasive, using facts to make a great case while completely ignoring meaningful points such as the fact that it does nothing.....'
and in response to your own post about your products they stated
'Roger, I am impressed with your presentation and enthusiasm though I certainly have clearly stated opposing positions....'
Our opinions will be presented to the SLTC conference this year