Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: stu_thomson on January 26, 2005, 10:36:02 pm
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had a demo today of the cfr machines, would appreciate any feedback on these machines, i cant get my head around the filter sysyem, surely some soiled water would go back into the carpet? also no heat! can you really clean a carpet as well with cold water? seems alot of dollar as well for a 1 vacuum 1 pump machine. having said that i was impressed with it but would appreciate feedback from you guys. cheers stuart
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Stu
Two days ago I cleaned some thirty year old Axminster carpets (never been cleaned before)
Thoroughly pre-vacuumed, misted with One-Step Fineline, agitated and rinsed with CFR Pro-Station 400...stone cold water was used ..not by choice I might add
I was staggered by the result and so easy too...they really did 'look like new' baring in mind their age of course. Colours were bright..... boy was I chuffed (that's a technical term)
Derek
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Stu
Not a machine I would look to buy but I have heard some good things of other cc about them.
No you can't clean carpet as good with cold water as you can with hot.
Have a good shop around first before you buy any machine.
If you can wait until March 1-3 you can shop til you drop in the Cleaningshow
www.cleaningshow.co.uk
Hope this helps
Regards
Gavin
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Gavin
There was a time in my career when I may have agreed with you totally.
I started out with a machine with no heater, have had several machines with heaters (still have two of them) but I can honestly say that these days I can achieve the same results without any heat. I do use warm water whenever possible but in the instance mentioned in my previous post there wasn't any at all or the facilities for obtaining any
Just requires an adjustment of the cleaning pie.
Derek
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I agree with Gavin i find i achieve better results with warm/hot water especially on stubburn areas.
I do find a big difference in the drying times though,if i use hot water the drying times are far quicker than cleaning with cold water.
Paul
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On the face of it, his would not seem to be the machine to buy - cold/warm water, single vac .................
But the machine itself is only part of a complete system comprising of machine, tools, chemicals, heat and operator.
Derek mentioned adjustments to the cleaning pie; it is the correct application and balance of the various elements of the clean that determine the end result, whatever machine is used.
One other factor, with no disrespect to any users of the CFR, I do believe that it is probably the most idiot-proof HWE on the market.
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thanx for replies guys, i have certainly looked at other machines and systems on the market, but my local supplier has just got the contract for these cfr machines so the back up service if there are problems are near and handy which is a big selling point! will have a big think anyway. perhaps if the machine is idiot proof as john says my 6 year old boy could earn a few quid for me as well! does anybody need one of my kidneys by the way so i can finance my purchase! cheers stuart
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Big Brother John
I am truly sorry to have to correct you...some new owners do find difficulty with their new cfr machines and it does take a little time to adjust to the system. So strictly not completely idiot proof although I managed it ;)
You only have to look at the specification..you have already hightlighted some points...
One Vacuum. cleaning with recycled water etc...lets face it seems to contradict all the principles of obtaining a good clean with good drying times.
It took me a while to get my 'old' head around this too and its only by borrowing a machine and trying it out that I was convinced...wouldn't be with out it now though... thinking of buying a second unit as backup
This is no reflection on cfr but I am a 'belt and braces' sort of chap and like the knowledge that 'IF' my cfr machine does break down I have an alternative
Incidentally drying times are at least halved 'in spite' of the one vacuum and a moisture output of 400psi..try getting your head around that one
Cheers
Derek
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Surely if you adjust the cleaning pie, then by incresing heat you can then reduce on the other three elements. Therefore heat must make a difference,
or the cleaning pie is wrong.
Hot water, and the hotter the better (depending on carpet), makes for an easier clean.
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Hi Derek,
Do you use only CFR recommended chemicals? Or can you use others as your ''Solution''? ;) ;) ;D
Regards.
Martin S
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Derek,
I used the term "idiot proof" rather too loosely.
What I should have said is that since the floor wand can virtually be held static without causing a major disaster, having mastered the basic wanding it is far more forgiving than a conventional wand.
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Hot water, and the hotter the better (depending on carpet), makes for an easier clean.
Not if you have a CFR blasting 400psi across the carpet. I have only noticed heat making a difference on the "black stuff". The cleaning pie is made of many different factors, and changes with each separate carpet and the machine you are using. On 95% of carpets, for me heat makes no difference, this system has to be seen, even now like Derek I am amazed at the results sometimes. So the pie is not wrong it just changes with this machine because of the higher psi and the unique tooling. If anything I would reduce heat and increase on the other elements on a normal machine, I believe Ken has been trying this with success.
Martin I think most CFR users use micro splitters as this does not produce foam and gets great results.
Mark
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Hi
Mark is correct the 400psi output can also be considered as a form of jet agitation thereby increasing that particular section of the cleaning pie.
The cleaning pie, like the many carpet cleaning methods can be adapted to suit the job on hand...horses for courses.
Derek
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Hi Everyone
Just a Thought, The Cfr system as i understand it uses a unique wand, atomising the water, never seen it so stand to be corrected. Is this the real key to the improved results people experience and if so could the wand be attached to any port or tm system and improved results been obtained by anyone using the wand.
regards
Eddie
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Eddie,
You can use the wand or hand tools with the CFR conversion hose. This will allow you to use it on any machine, and give great results no doubt. But remember at 400psi the wand uses 1.25 gallons (4.7 litres) per minute so the tank water aint gonna last that long unless you recycle it. Also I am not sure of the minimum amount of psi required to make the wand atomise so it would be worth speaking to Steve Carpenter or Amtec. I would think 150psi or more.
Mark
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Martin
I believe if memory serves me correctly, one should only use cfr agents due to their properties some thing about the filter configuration, then again could be wrong!
Eddie
Sorry no experience of the wand, but the hand tools the bee’s knees
Len
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Martin
I believe if memory serves me correctly, one should only use cfr agents due to their properties some thing about the filter configuration, then again could be wrong!
Len you crack me up ;D ;D ;D
http://www.another forum.co.uk/?board=cc_issues;action=display;num=1097436040;start=15
Mark
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im having a one to one demo hopefully next week if i again like the machine will go for it, question for derek, roller wand or glide? at 500 quid a piece i dont want to get the wrong one, also 3 inch or 5 inch hand tool? cheers stu
karl did you see the demo at hugh crane??
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Mark
Something just clicks; just like last week customer phoned do you remember me? Brain not that I have one goes into over load your Rabbi XXX.
Key words/phrases set me off!
Len
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Stu,
Roller wand, no question. The glide one feels like your not doing anything! If you can afford it get the 3" and 5". If not start with the 3" and get saving.
Len, just buy one, you know you want it...! Did you enjoy the Amtec day out?
Mark
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Mark
Yes I did and to be honest if I did buy one I would only use their agents as they are meant for this machine.
Len
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Stu
I tried the glide wand and couldn't get on with it so swopped for a roller wand.
The roller wand is harder work but certainly does the job well, the glide wand performs better on smoother carpet surfaces.
Incidentally I will let you into a secret...There is going to be the launch of a new cfr wand at the Cleaning Show which combines both elements... don't tell anyone just yet ;)
The NCCA will be organising a carpet cleaners trail at the Show and there are some great prizes on offer... including one of these new wands.
Some superb prizes have also been kindly donated by Solutions UK, Prochem and other NCCA Associate member companies.. yet another good reason to go to the show
Derek
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I like the sound of this machine but I am easily sold and my Cheque Book keeps me under control.
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mark, as part of the package machine comes with 7.5 inch stair tool and either 3 or 5 inch tool, but could have those 2 upholstery tools instead of stairtool, suppose i could use 5 inch tool for stairs with no probs. cheers stu
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No stu, missed the demo at Hugh Crane, well it totally slipped my mind, shame that cos having read a lot about this machine, I would like to see it prove itself. I believe in heat, and the hotter the better, so this would go 'againist the grain', so must see a demo.
Was going to send a pm, but don't know how? help
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Stu, I use the 5" for stairs with no problem.
One thing I would suggest is to buy some CFR de-foam, because the machine recycles, foam can be a problem. One capfull of this stuff in the tank is all you need, it really is the best ive seen. As you have to buy this stuff in a case of 4 ask if you can have 3 defoam and 1 Deo-Reo 40 Odour Neutralizer which will leave a smelly carpet with a nice mango fragrance.
Mark
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Hi Stuart,
We all clean with soiled water.
But with cfr you remove more than most other systems.
Commercial use hot pre-spray on black top.
Domestic not an issue,as Derek said cold water will do.
Also very good cleaning and drying times.
Impressive piece of kit.
From 1 of those cfr idiots,but a happy one.
Colin
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Is it true that the more psi the more hose lengths you can have without wetting the carpet through?
I read in an earlier thread that 400psi will handle 100 feet of pipe, what about 800psi will that handle 200 feet?
Shaun
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Hi Stu,
MYTHS ABOUT RECYCLING
Some manufacturers of conventional carpet extraction systems say that recycling the cleaning solution is bad because it puts dirty water back into the carpet. This gives you a picture of dumping the contents of an extractor’s recovery tank back into the carpet… but, this is a false picture for two reasons:
1. CFR’s patented filtration system removes virtually all of the suspended solids from the solution before it is reapplied. In fact, once the soil saturation level within the solution reaches the point where it loses its cleaning effectiveness; the CFR Work Station automatically shuts down, telling you that it is time to change to new solution.
2. With the CFR system, solution is always “in transit” while the solution from conventional extractors takes a “one way trip” into the carpet and up to 40% of it never makes it back to the machine due to gravitational pull. With CFR however, the solution is passed through the carpet fibres at such high speeds that gravity has no effect on the solution. Less than 10% of CFR solution is left in the carpet as a result of surface tension… and this evaporates almost immediately.
The filtration system engineered by CFR effectively filters “and cleans” the recovered solution back into the solution tank for continuous use. The filtration system, not unlike water filtration systems passes the solution through an extensive set of filters which are designed to remove soil from the solution allowing it to be used again. The system filters with 99% plus effectiveness and reuses the cleaning solution up to 7 times without the need to empty and refill.
For example, the CFR Pro 400 Station with a tank capacity of 28 litres and its recycling ability actually offers the operator up to 196 litres of useable cleaning solution in real terms. The larger Paramount Series offers 662-1060 litre working capacity depending on the particular model.
The CFR Work Stations offers much higher productivity without the need to continually empty and refill. For example, it is possible to clean 200+ metres of heavily soiled carpet with one tank full. In the domestic environment however, a three piece suite and the carpets in a 3-4 bedroom house can be cleaned without emptying the tank.
With CFR you can clean faster and leave textiles cleaner and also drier than conventional extraction equipment.
If you have any questions about the CFR system then please do not hesitate to give me a call on 07786 264 648
Regards
Steve
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Steve
What happens to urine, say when cleaning elderly or nursing/rest homes.
How does the machine seperate this ?
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conventional extractors takes a “one way trip” into the carpet and up to 40% of it never makes it back to the machine due to gravitational pull.
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Come on!!!!!!!!
Best regards Nick
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Hi Glynn,
The solids present in urine are effectively filtered and cross contamination controlled by the use of CFR’s Deo Reo 30 or Deo Reo 40 in-tank deodorizers. These are pH neutral additives that kill bacteria, neutralise odours and re-odorise at the same time.
I clean and maintain carpets and upholstery in this environment and leave carpets clean and odour free.
Alternatively, Ozone assisted machines from CFR are available which can be used in this environment as well as hospitals, day care centres, schools, food and beverage processing plants or facilities with bio-contaminant issues etc.
Regards
Steve
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So whats the least amount of solution in the tank to make it work. I'm thinking of transporting the machine with solution in the tank instead of filling for every job?
With one vac motor, what lenght of hose can be used with out major vacuum sacrifice?
How many cords are needed for the vacuum and large pump?
Whats happens to all the dust and grit if I happen to forget to prevac?
Mark
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Hi Mark,
For the machine to operate at optimum vacuum capacity the tank should to be filled to ½” below the vac shut off float. For spotting fill the machine so that the back flush assembly is covered.
As the CFR system is a single tank machine combining solution and waste, never transport with water present in the tank. Vehicle motion would allow water to gain access to the vacuum motor.
The current Pro Station 400 operates at 77ft without loss of performance. The Altra and new Paramount series operate at up to 100ft without loss of performance.
Current models operate with one power lead (including the 1000psi unit) with the exception of models fitted with heat exchangers, which use two power leads.
Dust and grit will be filtered as normal but as a professional Mark you wouldn’t forget to vacuum first.
Regards
Steve
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Hi Stu,
MYTHS ABOUT RECYCLING
Some manufacturers of conventional carpet extraction systems say that recycling the cleaning solution is bad because it puts dirty water back into the carpet. This gives you a picture of dumping the contents of an extractor’s recovery tank back into the carpet… but, this is a false picture for two reasons:
1. CFR’s patented filtration system removes virtually all of the suspended solids from the solution before it is reapplied. In fact, once the soil saturation level within the solution reaches the point where it loses its cleaning effectiveness; the CFR Work Station automatically shuts down, telling you that it is time to change to new solution.
2. With the CFR system, solution is always “in transit” while the solution from conventional extractors takes a “one way trip” into the carpet and up to 40% of it never makes it back to the machine due to gravitational pull. With CFR however, the solution is passed through the carpet fibres at such high speeds that gravity has no effect on the solution. Less than 10% of CFR solution is left in the carpet as a result of surface tension… and this evaporates almost immediately.
The filtration system engineered by CFR effectively filters “and cleans” the recovered solution back into the solution tank for continuous use. The filtration system, not unlike water filtration systems passes the solution through an extensive set of filters which are designed to remove soil from the solution allowing it to be used again. The system filters with 99% plus effectiveness and reuses the cleaning solution up to 7 times without the need to empty and refill.
For example, the CFR Pro 400 Station with a tank capacity of 28 litres and its recycling ability actually offers the operator up to 196 litres of useable cleaning solution in real terms. The larger Paramount Series offers 662-1060 litre working capacity depending on the particular model.
The CFR Work Stations offers much higher productivity without the need to continually empty and refill. For example, it is possible to clean 200+ metres of heavily soiled carpet with one tank full. In the domestic environment however, a three piece suite and the carpets in a 3-4 bedroom house can be cleaned without emptying the tank.
With CFR you can clean faster and leave textiles cleaner and also drier than conventional extraction equipment.
If you have any questions about the CFR system then please do not hesitate to give me a call on 07786 264 648
Regards
Steve
Off course you will have independant research to confirm all this or have we just got to take cfrs word for these claims ???
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Ladeeeez and Gentlemen. And now, for the main event of the evening, introducing to you, in the right hand corner................................................... ;D
Deja vous :)
Regards.
Martin S
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Hi Stu,
MYTHS ABOUT RECYCLING
Some manufacturers of conventional carpet extraction systems say that recycling the cleaning solution is bad because it puts dirty water back into the carpet. This gives you a picture of dumping the contents of an extractor’s recovery tank back into the carpet… but, this is a false picture for two reasons:
1. CFR’s patented filtration system removes virtually all of the suspended solids from the solution before it is reapplied. In fact, once the soil saturation level within the solution reaches the point where it loses its cleaning effectiveness; the CFR Work Station automatically shuts down, telling you that it is time to change to new solution.
2. With the CFR system, solution is always “in transit” while the solution from conventional extractors takes a “one way trip” into the carpet and up to 40% of it never makes it back to the machine due to gravitational pull. With CFR however, the solution is passed through the carpet fibres at such high speeds that gravity has no effect on the solution. Less than 10% of CFR solution is left in the carpet as a result of surface tension… and this evaporates almost immediately.
The filtration system engineered by CFR effectively filters “and cleans” the recovered solution back into the solution tank for continuous use. The filtration system, not unlike water filtration systems passes the solution through an extensive set of filters which are designed to remove soil from the solution allowing it to be used again. The system filters with 99% plus effectiveness and reuses the cleaning solution up to 7 times without the need to empty and refill.
For example, the CFR Pro 400 Station with a tank capacity of 28 litres and its recycling ability actually offers the operator up to 196 litres of useable cleaning solution in real terms. The larger Paramount Series offers 662-1060 litre working capacity depending on the particular model.
The CFR Work Stations offers much higher productivity without the need to continually empty and refill. For example, it is possible to clean 200+ metres of heavily soiled carpet with one tank full. In the domestic environment however, a three piece suite and the carpets in a 3-4 bedroom house can be cleaned without emptying the tank.
With CFR you can clean faster and leave textiles cleaner and also drier than conventional extraction equipment.
If you have any questions about the CFR system then please do not hesitate to give me a call on 07786 264 648
Regards
Steve
Off course you will have independant research to confirm all this or have we just got to take cfrs word for these claims ???
CFR commissioned independent assessments to confirm there claims both here in the UK and in the states. Cleaning Research International carried out the testing in the UK.
Dr. Eric Brown and Paul Bakker wrote the report.
A copy will be available to inspect at our stand at the NEC Cleaning Show.
Case studies are also available from the CFR website www.cfrcorp.com
Regards
Steve
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No offence to CFR sales or users intended but I simply dont believe recycling is possible when cleaning heavily soiled and greasy commercial carpets, black top, etc.
Unless of course results are sacrificed.
Paul
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Hi Stu,
MYTHS ABOUT RECYCLING
Some manufacturers of conventional carpet extraction systems say that recycling the cleaning solution is bad because it puts dirty water back into the carpet. This gives you a picture of dumping the contents of an extractor’s recovery tank back into the carpet… but, this is a false picture for two reasons:
1. CFR’s patented filtration system removes virtually all of the suspended solids from the solution before it is reapplied. In fact, once the soil saturation level within the solution reaches the point where it loses its cleaning effectiveness; the CFR Work Station automatically shuts down, telling you that it is time to change to new solution.
2. With the CFR system, solution is always “in transit” while the solution from conventional extractors takes a “one way trip” into the carpet and up to 40% of it never makes it back to the machine due to gravitational pull. With CFR however, the solution is passed through the carpet fibres at such high speeds that gravity has no effect on the solution. Less than 10% of CFR solution is left in the carpet as a result of surface tension… and this evaporates almost immediately.
The filtration system engineered by CFR effectively filters “and cleans” the recovered solution back into the solution tank for continuous use. The filtration system, not unlike water filtration systems passes the solution through an extensive set of filters which are designed to remove soil from the solution allowing it to be used again. The system filters with 99% plus effectiveness and reuses the cleaning solution up to 7 times without the need to empty and refill.
For example, the CFR Pro 400 Station with a tank capacity of 28 litres and its recycling ability actually offers the operator up to 196 litres of useable cleaning solution in real terms. The larger Paramount Series offers 662-1060 litre working capacity depending on the particular model.
The CFR Work Stations offers much higher productivity without the need to continually empty and refill. For example, it is possible to clean 200+ metres of heavily soiled carpet with one tank full. In the domestic environment however, a three piece suite and the carpets in a 3-4 bedroom house can be cleaned without emptying the tank.
With CFR you can clean faster and leave textiles cleaner and also drier than conventional extraction equipment.
If you have any questions about the CFR system then please do not hesitate to give me a call on 07786 264 648
Regards
Steve
Off course you will have independant research to confirm all this or have we just got to take cfrs word for these claims ???
CFR commissioned independent assessments to confirm there claims both here in the UK and in the states. Cleaning Research International carried out the testing in the UK.
Dr. Eric Brown and Paul Bakker wrote the report.
A copy will be available to inspect at our stand at the NEC Cleaning Show.
Case studies are also available from the CFR website www.cfrcorp.com
Regards
Steve
I stand corrected but you have to doubt some of the claims being made
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If anyone is thinking of starting up or upgrading to a 'like truckmount' you could buy a paramount and put it into the back of your van, you would have more than ample water supply for the day and it would be lighter than a TM and cheaper, but the down side would be you can only run 100ft of hose and that would mean you could miss out on a few jobs, but you could always take it out of the van and pull it nearer but don't ask me to help you lift it out with all of that water in it!
Steve what flow rate is the pump?
Shaun
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No offence to CFR sales or users intended but I simply dont believe recycling is possible when cleaning heavily soiled and greasy commercial carpets, black top, etc.
Unless of course results are sacrificed.
Cfr cleans with recycled water. It is important to understand that soil removal is the only measurement of cleaning effectiveness. If you cleaned an area and only removed 65% of the soil present you wouldnt class that as quality cleaning?
Recycling is a consideration only after soil removal efficiency. Then the consideration is only, how effectively are the soils filtered from the fluids prior to recycling. Cfr filters 99% out of the solids so you are left with-
Colourants or pigments.
Turbidity
Fugitive dyes
When I have done pubs in the past I normally refill after 150-200m2 depending on soiling, with out any problems. Like Derek says an open mind is needed.
"It is evident that skepticism, while it makes no actual change in man, always makes him feel better."
Ambrose Bierce
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Hi Nick. Who was your comments aimed at - Steve Carpenter?
The recovery of rate of the CFR must be good - when used with the CFR wand - else the water tank would empty pretty quick on 1000 psi unit which must circulate the water at a fair pace.
Or have I missed something?
Steve
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"Cfr filters 99% out of the solids so you are left with-
Colourants or pigments."
Colourants and pigments are not things I want to be cleaning with :P
But your right I'm sceptical ;)
Paul
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Paul, I understand where you are coming from but think of it this way, when you spray clean water on a dirty carpet what do you have? Dirty water. We all clean with dirty water, like it or not. As soon as a jet of water hits a carpet it becomes dirty, what you do with the water after that is what makes Cfr difficult to understand. Would I eat food from a carpet cleaned with a CFR or any machine...No . Although it appears clean its not, we all leave bacteria which is even worse when wet, only a post treatment with an anti-bacterial treatment will cure this. So cleaning with colourants and pigments is the least of worry.
Controversial Flow Recycling ;D
Mark
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Good point, I'll have to take a look at the show :)
Paul
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I can see the benefit when doing large areas as theres not the need to fill and dump every so often but for a single lounge does it not take longer due to the fact you have to fill the machine to the top and then empty? I usually have about 25 litres in my portable all the time so if the next job a small one I dont even need to use the customers water or wait for it to heat.
How much water does the machine need so it can be used?
Can the wand be used with a 'normal' HWE machine and how does the water useage and recovery compare?
thanks
Mark
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So recycling aside, the cfr seems to achieve results and decent drying times using a uniquely designed tool? which requires at least 400psi to function, and all with only 1 vac motor??
Is the flow rate higher than with a normal extraction wand hence the requirement for the recycling system?
Paul
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Sreve
Dr. Eric Brown and Paul Bakker wrote the report.
A copy will be available to inspect at our stand at the NEC Cleaning Show
Any chance of a copy at the show or before? Do a lot of bedtime reading, as it the only time I’m not a prima Donna, as I like to sleep on things and very often wake up with a different perspective!
Len
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Hi Mark,
Instead of filling the machine with buckets, you can just leave the hose under the tap and allow the Cfr to fill its self. When full it will shut down, allowing you to hoover the carpet while its doing this.
Paul, at 400psi the wand uses 1.25 gallons (4.7 litres) per minute with the Cfr 3 jet wand. I don't know how this compares to your wand? There are so many different wands some with 2/4 jet and all with different nozzle sizes.
Mark
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What sort of hose connection do you use for square taps as Ive got several but none are effective at staying on.
Mark
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Hi Mark,
If you use the Cfr with normal 1 1/5 hose this will fit uder most taps. I somtimes use elastic bands to hold the hose while it is filling. Dont forget the Cfr has the trigger built into the end of the hose so you can use this to hold the hose to the tap.
Mark