Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: chrismroberts on June 22, 2008, 12:59:36 pm
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I've been thinking, are they really that insecure?
I know this is an emotive subject, but I'm considering leasing a van, and don't want to bolt a great big tank through the chassis.
The thing is, I see low loaders with cars sat on the back.... and they're secured with ratchets, and a car must weigh a tonne at least? And you see big articulated flat beds with pieces of concrete on the back secured with them, so they must be safe?
The thing is, I'm using a 400ltr lay flat tank at the moment, which is secured with ratchets, but I want to upgrade to a 500 litre upright tank.... so really need to know if ratchets will be safe. I reckon they are... but is there any crash data for them?
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Perfectly ok to ratchet it down on a flat tank, providing it's up against the bulkhead.
I reckon it would keep working loose on an upright though.
Wouldn't fancy it myself.
Why would you want upright anyway?
It'll just make the van wallow about.
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Perfectly ok to ratchet it down on a flat tank, providing it's up against the bulkhead.
I reckon it would keep working loose on an upright though.
Wouldn't fancy it myself.
Why would you want upright anyway?
It'll just make the van wallow about.
I guess it leaves more storage space on the van floor, don't like storing my gear on top of the tank, it slides about :-\ However, looking at the 500 liter flat tank on Gardiners, it looks to have a smaller footprint than the 400, but still isn't that tall.
I guess the weak point is the hooks on the ratchets. The load fixings are going to be strong, and the straps themselves, just whether the hooks wouldn't deform in an accident?
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I guess the weak point is the hooks on the ratchets. The load fixings are going to be strong, and the straps themselves, just whether the hooks wouldn't deform in an accident?
That's the least of your worries if you have crash mate.
Everything will deform anyway!
I'd be more concerned with how good the front of the van is in crash tests.
If you're going to worry about that sort of thing you'll be making your kids wear goggles to play conkers and a harness on the roundabout! ;D
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Ratchet straps are completely safe and crash-worthy.......if fitted correctly within the correct breaking strains to approved mounting points.
The Eden Project near us recently had their new 'Seed' delivered which is a carved lump of Cornish Granite about 25ft high and weighs about 700 tons. This was delivered on a low loader and held in place entirely with ratchet straps.
The breaking strain on the metal hooks is usually the weakest point of any ratchet strap, but this can still be very high. I have a Northerntools catalogue here and some of the ratchet straps have a hook strength of 10,000kg.
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This whole mullarkey about tanks of water makes me laugh. ;D If you think about all the loads of stuff that are carried around the country with NO security - lumps of lead flashing, pallets of bricks, bags of sand, bog rolls, newspapers, bedding, etc etc etc., and none of it secured!
Yet people ARE killed by being hit by loose dogs in the back of cars, boxes of chocolates on the parcel shelf, toys in the same place etc etc., and noone say they should be stapped down and subjected to 'Thatcham tests'. I can just see an Alsation agreeing to be strapped in!
Keep your tank against the bulkhead and don't drive like a pr*ck and you'll be ok.
They say that if they took all the traffic lights away from road junctions we'd all be safer drivers as we would be more careful - same applies here - take the straps off, be sensible about how you drive and don't listen to the pople who only want to sell you more straps etc.
Good advice, and I don't charge for it. ;)
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This whole mullarkey about tanks of water makes me laugh. ;D If you think about all the loads of stuff that are carried around the country with NO security - lumps of lead flashing, pallets of bricks, bags of sand, bog rolls, newspapers, bedding, etc etc etc., and none of it secured!
Yet people ARE killed by being hit by loose dogs in the back of cars, boxes of chocolates on the parcel shelf, toys in the same place etc etc., and noone say they should be stapped down and subjected to 'Thatcham tests'. I can just see an Alsation agreeing to be strapped in!
Keep your tank against the bulkhead and don't drive like a pr*ck and you'll be ok.
They say that if they took all the traffic lights away from road junctions we'd all be safer drivers as we would be more careful - same applies here - take the straps off, be sensible about how you drive and don't listen to the pople who only want to sell you more straps etc.
Good advice, and I don't charge for it. ;)
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Ratchet straps are fine, just make sure the hooks are rated to 10 ton and its attaced to the chassis.
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Ratchet straps are fine, just make sure the hooks are rated to 10 ton and its attaced to the chassis.
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If you're going to worry about that sort of thing you'll be making your kids wear goggles to play conkers and a harness on the roundabout! ;D
well put!!
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Ratchet straps are fine, just make sure the hooks are rated to 10 ton and its attaced to the chassis.
Then there is the other side of the coin.........
Does drilling the chassis to bolt the tank down weaken the chassis?
Have a bad crash and the insurance assessors find you been drilling holes in and weakening the chassis,.... will they pay up?
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This whole mullarkey about tanks of water makes me laugh. ;D If you think about all the loads of stuff that are carried around the country with NO security - lumps of lead flashing, pallets of bricks, bags of sand, bog rolls, newspapers, bedding, etc etc etc., and none of it secured!
Yet people ARE killed by being hit by loose dogs in the back of cars, boxes of chocolates on the parcel shelf, toys in the same place etc etc., and noone say they should be stapped down and subjected to 'Thatcham tests'. I can just see an Alsation agreeing to be strapped in!
Keep your tank against the bulkhead and don't drive like a pr*ck and you'll be ok.
They say that if they took all the traffic lights away from road junctions we'd all be safer drivers as we would be more careful - same applies here - take the straps off, be sensible about how you drive and don't listen to the pople who only want to sell you more straps etc.
Good advice, and I don't charge for it. ;)
Well said. Spot on.
It's ridiculous what people worry about these days.
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Ratchet straps are fine, just make sure the hooks are rated to 10 ton and its attaced to the chassis.
Then there is the other side of the coin.........
Does drilling the chassis to bolt the tank down weaken the chassis?
Have a bad crash and the insurance assessors find you been drilling holes in and weakening the chassis,.... will they pay up?
Ha ha! You may be right!
I wouldn't fancy doing it. :o
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I have just contacted a local garage about fixing a 650 ltr tank into my van and they said the ratchet straps are more than enough as they use them for straping cars down and they never move made me realise that sometimes we scaremainer ourselves
Dean
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i use ratchet straps on my 650litre in a primstar,
solid and doesnt move at all.
seems good enough :)
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Great, plenty of realistic people for once.
Now can we lock and hide this thread before the girly "professional"people turn up...? ;D
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Hi
I had my system installed by Cleantech. I have 3x400litre upright tanks ratchet strapped together and bolted to the floor with really beefy equal angle "L" bracketts. I have had the system for almost 2 years now and the tanks are still rock solid as ever. They used 4 ratchett straps. I think they are 5 tonne breaking capacity each which gives me 20 tonnes. (Hope I have got the technical babble right). My van doesn't wallow from side to side. I have them fitted the width of two omnipole 50 litre trollies away from the bulkhead. The reason why I opted for the upright tanks is to save on floor space for the trollies. I hope this helps.
Bal
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the ratchet strapping it self has a proof test rating of 6-1 so if ratchets have
a safe working load of 5 tonne the test to break is six times this.people
are correct on here about the delta links or claw hooks are the weak points
and have a proof test rating of 2-1.
periodic checks of wear to the strapping and any deformity in the claws
especially straightening you should replace immediately even the material is designed to stretch once it has gone beyond its elastic limit or 8% wear if
memory serves me correctly its less than useless.
when i use to be on site inspection ratchet straps were generally replaced every 6 months due to wear and tear
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What about chain straps??
Most of the lorry drivers i use to deal with in my old job had chain straps...
Bazz...
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There is an old saying - a chain is as strong as its weakest link.
There are TWO weakest links in this story:
The weakest link 1 - is the tie-down points on the floor of the vehicle.
The weakest link 2 - is the guy behind the steering wheel.
Sure, strap the tank down - you don't want it to be sliding around when you're driving normally.
Just don't expect the straps to save your life of you have a 20+ mph head-on crash with a half-full tank. They won't. The tank will come away from its mooring and crush you to death in a fraction of a second. You won't last long enough to say, "Oh, sh...." And please don't think that putting the tank against the bulkhead will make a scrap of difference. It won't.
So ...
Obey the 2-second rule and you will never have a crash that's your fault. If someone crashes into you head-on, you're going to die, straps or no straps. Just hope that s/he's insured to look after your family after you're gone.
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the ratchet strapping it self has a proof test rating of 6-1 so if ratchets have
a safe working load of 5 tonne the test to break is six times this.people
are correct on here about the delta links or claw hooks are the weak points
and have a proof test rating of 2-1.
periodic checks of wear to the strapping and any deformity in the claws
especially straightening you should replace immediately even the material is designed to stretch once it has gone beyond its elastic limit or 8% wear if
memory serves me correctly its less than useless.
when i use to be on site inspection ratchet straps were generally replaced every 6 months due to wear and tear
Well said, rachet straps should be checked at point B after leaving point A, in window cleanining terms that could be 20 times a day. if you can't be arsed" on your head be it"so to say
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Just don't expect the straps to save your life of you have a 20+ mph head-on crash with a half-full tank. They won't. The tank will come away from its mooring and crush you to death in a fraction of a second. You won't last long enough to say, "Oh, sh...." And please don't think that putting the tank against the bulkhead will make a scrap of difference. It won't.
Yawn, told you some H&S fairy would appear spouting scare stories. ::)
Folks, ratchets straps won't fly apart at 20-odd mph, causing your half full tank to burst through a steel wall it's up against, jump 2 feet in the air and crush you to death. ::) ;D
I give up with the nonsense on here, I really do.
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The other problem we have is there are to many cheapjacks who not only don't care about there safety they don't give 2 hoots about anybody else :o
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squeeky no offence intended but I have my docorate in engineering and I can conclusively tell you that the bulkhead will make very little difference.
loading eyes in vans aren't made for strapping down 500ltr tanks either.
the one thing everyone other than squeeky ahs overlooked is the frontal protection in an accident.
400kg @ 30mph translates to roughly 30ton of force - so adding an extra 500kg or so to your van will have a considerable effect on how the crumple zones and passenger cabin perform in accident, a lot more force exerted on the vehicle body.
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Just don't expect the straps to save your life of you have a 20+ mph head-on crash with a half-full tank. They won't. The tank will come away from its mooring and crush you to death in a fraction of a second. You won't last long enough to say, "Oh, sh...." And please don't think that putting the tank against the bulkhead will make a scrap of difference. It won't.
Yawn, told you some H&S fairy would appear spouting scare stories. ::)
Folks, ratchets straps won't fly apart at 20-odd mph, causing your half full tank to burst through a steel wall it's up against, jump 2 feet in the air and crush you to death. ::) ;D
I give up with the nonsense on here, I really do.
Squeaks.... come on mate, you hear about this every day on the news,
" Water tank jumps through bulkhead and kills window cleaner"
Where have you been ::) ;D ;D ;D
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yeah and I suppose it'll be just as funny when it does happen, eh John?
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yeah and I suppose it'll be just as funny when it does happen, eh John?
I'm not saying it won't happen.
I'm saying the likelyhood of it happening is very very small.
If you want to take every precaution imaginable in your day to day existance then you aint gonna get any work done.
Builders dont strap anything in the back of their vans, cement mixers, bags of sand/cement, bricks, hammers trowels, the list goes on and on they just get thrown in . How many do you know get killed?
We at least try to secure our loads, but as always there are those that want to H&S to excess.
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i got hit head on 6 months ago wasnt at massive speed but still smashed up my front end i got whiplash but my 400ltr upright tank hadnt budged a inch it was held down by three 5 ton ratchet straps.i imagine if i was driving at 70mph it would be a different story tank or no tank.
if they are fitted correctly and strong enough straps will do there job,also
driving at sensible speed helps,i drive round birmingham every day lucky if i
ever get above 30mph
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personally i think the straps themselves are definately strong enough, after all they hold cars on the backs of lorries etc..
BUT what do you secure them to? There's the problem I think.
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Wow.... have just come back to this thread and its grown! :P
Thanks for all the advice guys... some of the replies have been a breath of fresh air ;D ;D
personally i think the straps themselves are definately strong enough, after all they hold cars on the backs of lorries etc..
BUT what do you secure them to? There's the problem I think.
I agree with this... and the comment about the Eden project delivery... I see cars on the back of low loaders all the time, and if it was so insecure, then I'm sure the Police would be on to it.
I think the best place to secure them would be the manufacturers load points.... they haven't been added in after, and I assume they're secured to the chassis. If a commercial vehicle payload is rated at 500kg, or 1000kg, or whatever, then I can imagine, in our H+S mad society, the manufacturer would be required to provide a safe means of lashing down the entire payload?
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It's about the perceived/real risk...
We wear seat belts in cars, some coaches I think, and we strap down loads in lorries.
But we don't wear belts on trains - presumably becasue the risk of a train coming to a sudden stop is small.
I say watch your driving - that'll go a long way to helping you stay alive. Of course, should anyone decided to drive into you head-first, you might have a backache to deal with.
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I think the fuel or financial crash may well come before a head on crash in your van.
You may be worrying about the wrong issue
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as for wagons just have a look at the corner of boby wher thay fasen most staps to not so thick as most dont fasten to shasy
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???
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???
I've run it thru' the translator Squeaks and it comes out as:
As for wagons, just look at the (points at the) corner of (the) body where they fasten most straps to. (Those points are) not so thick as (and) most (operators) don't fasten to the chassis.
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I would have thought that the plastic tank would rupture when/if it hits the bulkhead and jumps 2 feet in the air.
Granted some of the tie down points in vans are not that strong, but I would rather ratchet down than have a tank full inside a steel frame as the tank has no chance to rupture.
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I would have thought that the plastic tank would rupture when/if it hits the bulkhead and jumps 2 feet in the air.
Granted some of the tie down points in vans are not that strong, but I would rather ratchet down than have a tank full inside a steel frame as the tank has no chance to rupture.
that post if logically think makes little sence.
if water hit a bulk head it would be a mass and would force the whole lot forward like hitting someone with a brick with a 2ft steel plate attached to the front.
A strap would snap (most of the time) we are not talking a little force when in motion.
A steel frame would split tank just as much if not more so than a strap if moving it will still hurt be maynot be as deadly.
I have seen some many people with diy tanks in van straped across the tank just to make it not move sideways when moving which is asking for trouble.
if going the strap route at least strap across the tank and also along the tank, I wonder how many people that read this think I have not done this. unsecured you are liable for others and it can kill. all I can say is think and make it safe and dont go for cheap just to make do.
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i left my van to have my tank fitted by a garage who spend a lot of time working on rally cars , i shown them the mag with the ionics crash test in and said i want my tank safe . guess what they used rachet straps and went through the floor with new anchor points , do i feel safe at 70 too right i do . ;D
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i left my van to have my tank fitted by a garage who spend a lot of time working on rally cars , i shown them the mag with the ionics crash test in and said i want my tank safe . guess what they used rachet straps and went through the floor with new anchor points , do i feel safe at 70 too right i do . ;D
No-one's safe at 70 (mph) - all you can do is be aware of the risk.
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I would have thought that the plastic tank would rupture when/if it hits the bulkhead and jumps 2 feet in the air.
Granted some of the tie down points in vans are not that strong, but I would rather ratchet down than have a tank full inside a steel frame as the tank has no chance to rupture.
that post if logically think makes little sence.
if water hit a bulk head it would be a mass and would force the whole lot forward like hitting someone with a brick with a 2ft steel plate attached to the front.
A strap would snap (most of the time) we are not talking a little force when in motion.
A steel frame would split tank just as much if not more so than a strap if moving it will still hurt be maynot be as deadly.
I have seen some many people with diy tanks in van straped across the tank just to make it not move sideways when moving which is asking for trouble.
if going the strap route at least strap across the tank and also along the tank, I wonder how many people that read this think I have not done this. unsecured you are liable for others and it can kill. all I can say is think and make it safe and dont go for cheap just to make do.
Could someone translate please, this post me think not logical ::)
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I would have thought that the plastic tank would rupture when/if it hits the bulkhead and jumps 2 feet in the air.
Granted some of the tie down points in vans are not that strong, but I would rather ratchet down than have a tank full inside a steel frame as the tank has no chance to rupture.
that post if logically think makes little sence.
if water hit a bulk head it would be a mass and would force the whole lot forward like hitting someone with a brick with a 2ft steel plate attached to the front.
A strap would snap (most of the time) we are not talking a little force when in motion.
A steel frame would split tank just as much if not more so than a strap if moving it will still hurt be maynot be as deadly.
I have seen some many people with diy tanks in van straped across the tank just to make it not move sideways when moving which is asking for trouble.
if going the strap route at least strap across the tank and also along the tank, I wonder how many people that read this think I have not done this. unsecured you are liable for others and it can kill. all I can say is think and make it safe and dont go for cheap just to make do.
Could someone translate please, this post me think not logical ::)
I am guessing your tired,
so will put in plain english, water at the weights we talk about can kill you.
A strap is not safer than a secure tank fitting.
A strap may snap.
A tank cage would burst the tank a strap might not it would be a chance.
if using straps on tank make sure at less they are in both across and along this sort of shape being you tired and need a little help I will try and show what I mean ------> ++
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I would have thought that the plastic tank would rupture when/if it hits the bulkhead and jumps 2 feet in the air.
Granted some of the tie down points in vans are not that strong, but I would rather ratchet down than have a tank full inside a steel frame as the tank has no chance to rupture.
that post if logically think makes little sence.
if water hit a bulk head it would be a mass and would force the whole lot forward like hitting someone with a brick with a 2ft steel plate attached to the front.
A strap would snap (most of the time) we are not talking a little force when in motion.
A steel frame would split tank just as much if not more so than a strap if moving it will still hurt be maynot be as deadly.
I have seen some many people with diy tanks in van straped across the tank just to make it not move sideways when moving which is asking for trouble.
if going the strap route at least strap across the tank and also along the tank, I wonder how many people that read this think I have not done this. unsecured you are liable for others and it can kill. all I can say is think and make it safe and dont go for cheap just to make do.
Could someone translate please, this post me think not logical ::)
I am guessing your tired,
so will put in plain english, water at the weights we talk about can kill you.
A strap is not safer than a secure tank fitting.
A strap may snap.
A tank cage would burst the tank a strap might not it would be a chance.
if using straps on tank make sure at less they are in both across and along this sort of shape being you tired and need a little help I will try and show what I mean ------> ++
Me think me not only one tired ;D
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I would have thought that the plastic tank would rupture when/if it hits the bulkhead and jumps 2 feet in the air.
Granted some of the tie down points in vans are not that strong, but I would rather ratchet down than have a tank full inside a steel frame as the tank has no chance to rupture.
that post if logically think makes little sence.
if water hit a bulk head it would be a mass and would force the whole lot forward like hitting someone with a brick with a 2ft steel plate attached to the front.
A strap would snap (most of the time) we are not talking a little force when in motion.
A steel frame would split tank just as much if not more so than a strap if moving it will still hurt be maynot be as deadly.
I have seen some many people with diy tanks in van straped across the tank just to make it not move sideways when moving which is asking for trouble.
if going the strap route at least strap across the tank and also along the tank, I wonder how many people that read this think I have not done this. unsecured you are liable for others and it can kill. all I can say is think and make it safe and dont go for cheap just to make do.
Could someone translate please, this post me think not logical ::)
I am guessing your tired,
so will put in plain english, water at the weights we talk about can kill you.
A strap is not safer than a secure tank fitting.
A strap may snap.
A tank cage would burst the tank a strap might not it would be a chance.
if using straps on tank make sure at less they are in both across and along this sort of shape being you tired and need a little help I will try and show what I mean ------> ++
Me think me not only one tired ;D
I im am crap at grammer, I dont get tired m8 :D
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I im am crap at grammer...
Grammar. ;D
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I im am crap at grammer...
Grammar. ;D
Was meant to say Spelling then again I aint the one in a black dress :P
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iv seen uni graduates as thick as a short planks as thers normaly two . but never mind il not slag em off as it wood be bulleying . so now wev eshtablishd that not every body has the same srenths , & i hate bulleys . & when push cums to shuv % bulleys have ther own short cuming, & not to understoneand wot ian one must wonder the interlect of sum
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I im am crap at grammer...
Grammar. ;D
Was meant to say Spelling then again I aint the one in a black dress :P
;D ;D ;D I thought he was competing with Tosh! ;D
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Ratchet straps are fine, just make sure the hooks are rated to 10 ton and its attaced to the chassis.
Then there is the other side of the coin.........
Does drilling the chassis to bolt the tank down weaken the chassis?
Have a bad crash and the insurance assessors find you been drilling holes in and weakening the chassis,.... will they pay up?
What size hole are you planning on drilling? we are talking about anchoring 1/2 a ton or maybe a ton not the queen mary!
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Ratchet straps are fine, just make sure the hooks are rated to 10 ton and its attaced to the chassis.
Then there is the other side of the coin.........
Does drilling the chassis to bolt the tank down weaken the chassis?
Have a bad crash and the insurance assessors find you been drilling holes in and weakening the chassis,.... will they pay up?
What size hole are you planning on drilling? we are talking about anchoring 1/2 a ton or maybe a ton not the queen mary!
I'm not planning on drilling any holes, I'm giving an alternate example to whats been offered previously.
People seem to be getting paranoid about H&S...... best if they just stay at home in a cotton wool box ::)
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I have first hand experience of coming to an immediate stop from 80mph.
8 years ago I was driving to see my mate, who lives 15 miles away and driving at 80mph. I misjudged a bend, clipped the kerb and oversteered onto the right hand side of the road.
Did not really have a great deal of time to think about too much but I did see the speedo - it was a t 80 mph and then there was a lot of rushing noise, a very loud bang and then silence.
I hit a very big tree stump and stopped immediately.
I weigh 20 stone. I had my seat belt on but when I got out it had sheered from its mounting and was loose around my shoulder.
I did not shoot through the windscreen with momentum - the seat belt broke but it held me in place at the critical point.
I concluded that with my weight being at the top end of the scale - there aren't many 20 stone people - although this is becoming more common, it would put a greater stress on the mounting than someone who was average weight and the mounting probably would not snap.
I do not have the engineering and physics background to work out the stress factors involved but I do understand ratio and my experience tells me that momentum is not always continued if something is strapped in properly.
I may be wrong but this is my experience
Rob ;D