Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: paulscotney on May 25, 2008, 10:01:40 pm
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Picked up a £25 month job last week. The woman said that she needed a reliable window cleaner who was professional etc and was impressed that I was a member of a trade organisation etc. Can't grumble only costs me £1 pm for membership. I have it on all my gear, quotation forms etc. Has done me a lot of good. Picked up other work as well. Had a great week.
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I would join and use the details but putting the logo on van would make my design bad as it needs changing to look professional IMO
Nat thats not a dig at what you are doing as I think it is good, but image is a lot ::)
Ian
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Yes but what about your stationery etc. It adds credibility, professionalism etc IMO and £1 pm isn't a lot. Anyway each to their own.
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If all three (assoc, fed, guild) offer the same main benefit, credibility in the eyes of the customer, and one at £12 per year is very much cheaper than others, then it would seem that one is better.
Or am i mistaken?
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No you have reached the same conclusion as me. Lots of my customers have noticed it on my paperwork and commented. A bargain IMO
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Yes but what about your stationery etc. It adds credibility, professionalism etc IMO and £1 pm isn't a lot. Anyway each to their own.
I would not have that logo on my stationary because it is badly designed IMO (said this before) i would use this as it is cheap credibility (customers know no difference) and I guess it you could mean you are more professional not usre on that but not saying No
I think www.mgwc.org is a very good idea it is cheap and does near on the same as most org at less than 1/4 of the price no frills just working for window cleaners.
Again I say Good on Nat for doing this.
Ian
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Yes Nat seems a real gem.
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Thanks for the positive feedback Paul, much appreciated!
;D ;D ;D ;D
Did I mention that thanks very kind sponsorship by Arthur at www.surecleansystems.com the Guild is holding a draw for all members on 30th June, and the 1st prize is a 24' HXtel hybrid pole???
;D ;D ;D
The Guild crest isn't to everyone's taste,... but I reckon it looks pretty good on my van,... and I've only had positive comments from custies since it was added to my stationary etc!
(http://www.avondhucleaning.com/yabb2.2/public_html/yabbfiles/Attachments/Image006_002.jpg)
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I have noticed that he's one of those guys, like alex, that no one has a pop at.
Another thing i've noticed about the other orgs, politics , personalities and factions play thier part. With fewer people involved you get clearer decisions.
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Just wrote a long post am getting sick and tied of the htt problem and habving to rewrite the lot again. Rant over:
Nat, thanks for not saying anyhting about what I posted.
I think what you are doing is very good, I think logo is not good (IMO and many others)
have you thought of having 2 for download for vans/stationary ect I have designers that I can pay to do this no charge to you and I would be more than willing to help thew guild.
the botton of logo look like it is just stuck there as an add on this could easy be in the overall design.
let me know as I just said I would pay this out of my own pocket.
Ian
email if you dont want to post on this to design@windowwashers.co.u k
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The logo/crest will remain the same for 2008,.. but we would consider a new or even an additional design for 2009.
I'd be more than happy to see any designs.
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The logo/crest will remain the same for 2008,.. but we would consider a new or even an additional design for 2009.
I'd be more than happy to see any designs.
ok, you want 2009 on it ? to me it would be better for all if it did nothave a year on it, or it would meran them changing van signs every years something most will not do.
can you send me a bill to join and what you need, I keep meaning to join but never get to the site.
Ian
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:) I was thinking of joining just because of the cost! 8)
But there doesn't seem to be many members in the British Isles !
You have to be vetted/sponsored in order to join...
This is good, (otherwise any old so and so could join!) however the nearest to me (Kent) is miles away! :'(
Hardly seems worth the time dragging someone miles to vet my one man show! :-[
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If you can join for a quid then that says it all, no credibility ?
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If you can join for a quid then that says it all, no credibility ?
No disrespect to you Dave got I have asked over 20 big clients and none have heard of your either, so £1 £100 really makes no difference. Outsides view that is a little clued up on marketing.
Ian
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The need for vetting has been dropped for the time being , mainly for the reasons stated by Ideal window Cleaning ( thankfully or I would have had a hard time) and It has become easier to join , mostly to build the membership to a point where vetting will be possible
I think theres about a 50/50 split on the logo, some really likke it and others don't , like most guild matters it was put to a vote on Nats Forum and that recieved the most votes' now that the guild is a going concern,Im guessing most things will be decided by a vote among the membership
I just saw Dave2st ives post as I went to post this, The membership fee was kept low , so that there would be no misconception that anyone was making money off it, and I agree among forum using window cleaners it probably will not add to anyones credibility, but having it on the side of your van can't hurt with customers
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Ian
You have missed the point , it doesnt matter if they have heard of you , just explain in your pitch, i didnt say nothing about the APWC but boy do i milk it in my pitch.
"Whats it all about then" "well you pay your £ then your in", impressive or what ?
Where is the substance ?
Pat
when the day comes when every WC has the badge for a £, where Do you differentiate yourself from the other £s
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Good point Dave, but for right now it is something that most don't have and is akin to wearing a nice uniform or having a well signwritten van, Its just one more thing that differentiates you from other window cleaners.
Somewhere down the road as membership increases, there will be efforts made to use that power of numbers to negotiate better deals for window cleaners, with suppliers and insurance co's etc, I can't say that will happen , but I can tell you that it will be tried
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negotiate better deals for window cleaners, with suppliers and insurance co's etc, I can't say that will happen , but I can tell you that it will be tried
thats it and alot cheaper than other that give not much benifit
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Ian
When i pitch I state my insurance £5 mill , my h@s policy , method statement , risk assessment, tell them we are police checked with id cards , hand them my bwca certs along with my apwc, tell them what its all about , then give them a reference sheet with big names on it (m&S, schools hospitals etc) then give them my price. it is no coincidence i get most of the commercial jobs i quote for.
Just wish i was a member of the fed as well it would give me one more meaningful cert to present
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Ian
When i pitch I state my insurance £5 mill , my h@s policy , method statement , risk assessment, tell them we are police checked with id cards , hand them my bwca certs along with my apwc, tell them what its all about , then give them a reference sheet with big names on it (m&S, schools hospitals etc) then give them my price. it is no coincidence i get most of the commercial jobs i quote for.
Just wish i was a member of the fed as well it would give me one more meaningful cert to present
Where do you get the police checked id cards ? all my guys are police checked and me, I dont have cards though but would be a bonus.
other thing is in the speech the APWC means not alot insurance yes, police checked yes, list of custmers to a degree yes h&s normal method normal.
the post was about Nat's guild he offer about what you do at minimal price, life insurance is cheap before you say that , what else is the difference no other knows of you round Cambridgeshire (large area)
Ian
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I want to preface this statement by saying that I know nothing about the APWC or the Fed, but i would say that they are real associations that have real agendas, and these things are very very time consuming and costly,
The Guild for now is more of a collective of window cleaners and does not have the overheads that an Association has and also because of the existance of the FED and APWC who are trying to fight the big fights, its an easier task to fight the small battles for now( i should add that while I help in a small way with the guild I do not speak for the guild)
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Say what you like but the guild dees seem to be a genuine grass roots move amongst window cleaners to take the business forward. And not a business decision by a group of guys with an agenda.
A lot more people would join one of the groups mentioned if the fees were more reasonable. The main benefit is as has already been stated is credibility in the eyes of the customer, and as most customers haved never heard of any of them, then the guild makes the other two look like a rip off. If the other two had a more sensible joining fee they would probably have ten times the membership.
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Ian
Thats not the point if people have not heard of you.
You have it on your stationary etc, then the customer may check this out to see what its all about.
If they check out the mgwc and see anyone can join for £1.00 then it loses credibility, a bit like a blue peter badge.
There are plenty of associations I have not heard of, but if i were employing a tradesman and he told me he was a member of one i would check it out online.
Most big building owners and large contracters have heard of the fed, not so many the apwc although there is an awareness having featured in several national cleaning magazines.
As for the id cards they were supplied by a government recognised trade association.
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Discount
People join trade associations to differentiate themselves from the competition and to show professionalism to a prospective customer.
I dont think £150 is expensive for a window cleaner, even less as you know it is a tax deductable.
most other business pay hell of a lot more to join an association.
Check out all the big window cleaning firms you will find them all a member of an association or 2 or more.
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The fee should either include public liability to give a real benefit, be a full time trade body improving the image of the industry and negotiating a deal with defra and local authorities and trading standards.Or
If it does none of these things, and the top positions are a constant game of musical chairs, then the cheapest option represents the least worse option.
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Discount
People join trade associations to differentiate themselves from the competition and to show professionalism to a prospective customer.
I dont think £150 is expensive for a window cleaner, even less as you know it is a tax deductable.
most other business pay hell of a lot more to join an association.
Check out all the big window cleaning firms you will find them all a member of an association or 2 or more.
:o I think £150 is a lot, even if it is tax deductible!
I still have to earn it ::)
If the argument isn't about cost then surely joining another wouldn't matter,
If anything it would be another feather in the cap... so to speak.
If £150 is nothing, £12 for another "Badge" is less than nothing...
and therefore worth every penny! 8)
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Discount
People join trade associations to differentiate themselves from the competition and to show professionalism to a prospective customer.
I dont think £150 is expensive for a window cleaner, even less as you know it is a tax deductable.
most other business pay hell of a lot more to join an association.
Check out all the big window cleaning firms you will find them all a member of an association or 2 or more.
How can a logo or something most have not heard of make you show professionalism to a prospective customer.
I would say smart uniformI can see it could be a good talking point if you are short of words to say to prospects, I personally talk about my company and what I can do for them and safe ways we work, about 5mil liability insurance ect.
Safe Contractor I would join as it has benifits for my company.
it is all well and good joining every org's but there needs to be a point to pay money out in the first place and benifits to joining and staying joined over the years.
I did get you point about the £1 fee to join the mgwc maybe that should not be on the website for all to see then maybe it shows they are not in it for the money 2 sides to that I guess.
If you can join for a quid then that says it all, no credibility ?
so if it was £200 to join would that make a difference ?
Maybe it says its not being done for money more to help window cleaners
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You can have membership of umpteen trade orgs. but that doesn't mean a thing .For instance membership of the FMB doesn't mean that an individual is a better builder, I speak from experience,had some work done by fmb member and it was trash. However if the tradesmen/women had to turn out work to a certain standard b4 being granted membership,then potential customers would be able to contact the relevant trade org that the canvasser belonged to for reassurance of trustworthyness and standards of workmanship. Then membership would be worth having as it would actually mean something. (This post is not meant to be derogatory to anyone or organisation ,it is just my own opinion)
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Well for £150 i can also include a cert from a "government recognised trade association" in my quotation pack, to me that is money well spent.
I spend over £2000 in advertising each year so an extra £100 or so is small fry.
I am not promoting any particular association, just saying the badge has to have some worth.
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Because there are no strict rules to say how you have to be organised to be classed as a professional window cleaner. A lot just rely on there own opinions.
This has no substance at all, until we all agree to join a recognised trade body and make it work in a positive way for window cleaners.
The cost is only a few pence a day, so there no financial argument.
You can have the best equipment offer the best service been trading for years and are successful but you are only promoting yourself not the window cleaning industry as a whole.
There will always be an argument whether you are professional because how you separate yourself from the cowboy is not recognised.
So you can argue all you like I won’t listen to you nor will the customers. They will smile then agree with you but you will still just be a window cleaner. Not a professional.
So ultimately window cleaners whether you agree or not do need recognition, and you can’t do it by yourself. As much as you may think you can.
Ewan ;
[/quote ]This is exactly the point I'm trying to make Ewan, the industry itself needs to be promoted as a proffesion,rather than just an unskilled job. I read years ago that in Scotland they run NVQ courses in window cleaning for school leavers, if this is correct than IMO that creates a more proffessional image of the trade.
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p.s a couple quotation forms i have had to fill in lately have a box to enter any trade association details, so there is something in it.
The more commercial stuff you pick up you will notice this from time to time.
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I am a member of B.A.G.S
Bristol and Gloucestershire Shiners.
We are an association of likeminded window cleaners in the Bristol and Glos areas who want to show our customers that we are reliable and trustworthy. With our sophisticated "Word for Windows" program and colour inkjet printer we produce the BAGS logo on our headed paper for all our larger quotations.
Appropriately it is a shield with a black background with BAGS written over the top with a squeegie to one side and a wfp to the other.
At our annual general meeting last week we had 100% attendance and we both decided to forge links with two other likeminded associations to add credibility.
The first is the South London and Guildford Shiners (SLAGS) and the other is the South Wales and Gwent group (SWAG).
If all six members of the three associations agree we will call ourselves the:-
SWAG-BAGS SLAGS which I am sure you'll agree will add credibility to all our quotations with this legend emblazoned across the top!
(I did hear that Tosh and Squeaky were going to leave the SWAG and set up JAGS -Japanese and Geordie Shiners - but only Tosh liked the name so that fell through ...)
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dave is right a lot of commercial contracts want to know what organisations you are a member of , they also like to know of any contracts of a similar size that you are already doing, i feel anyone just starting out will find it harder and harder just to get passed the tendering stage and have there tender considered seriously.
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Is there such an org as the Scottish Highland Area Shiners
SHAGS
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??? well what's the final say..
Join..... YES or NO
Simply one word answers please ! :-\
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NO ;)
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Ewans point is only valid if it were true, but it isn't. The recent history is full of factions, in fightiing, lack of direction , poor leadership, WFP slated on tv, missed opportunities, and egos.
Who exactly does Ewan suggest we give our £150-£200 and get behind?
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MGWC, Haven' t this "organization" lost their way already?
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It's interesting that the MGWC is being compared to the Fed and the APWC in this thread.
We're just a few guys with a very small organisation trying to make some relatively small changes,.... The Fed and the APWC are "Trade associations",.... The MGWC is "just a club" as was pointed out to me previously. There is a world of difference between these different associations,.. and I beleive each has its place.
I think the Fed and the APWC do a great job,.. and are well worth joining if your business is in a place where it would truly benefit from being a member.
My own business would not benefit,.. and IMO i'd be throwing £150 down the drain. I've never been asked what trade association I belong to,... nor do I think any of my clients would be interested. The clients I have that have commented on the new logo honestly do not know the difference, and have never heard of the fed, apwc or the guild before in their lives,.. but they are impressed non the less.
Any logo on your stationary will 99 times out of 100 project a more positive & professional image when compared to stationary without. That's all I wanted to do when the Guild was first conceived.
For my business it has definitely been a success so far,... but every business is different. If the Fed or APWC suits you better then don't delay,.. it will help your business grow, so sign up today!
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I am a member of B.A.G.S
Bristol and Gloucestershire Shiners.
We are an association of likeminded window cleaners in the Bristol and Glos areas who want to show our customers that we are reliable and trustworthy. With our sophisticated "Word for Windows" program and colour inkjet printer we produce the BAGS logo on our headed paper for all our larger quotations.
Appropriately it is a shield with a black background with BAGS written over the top with a squeegie to one side and a wfp to the other.
At our annual general meeting last week we had 100% attendance and we both decided to forge links with two other likeminded associations to add credibility.
The first is the South London and Guildford Shiners (SLAGS) and the other is the South Wales and Gwent group (SWAG).
If all six members of the three associations agree we will call ourselves the:-
SWAG-BAGS SLAGS which I am sure you'll agree will add credibility to all our quotations with this legend emblazoned across the top!
(I did hear that Tosh and Squeaky were going to leave the SWAG and set up JAGS -Japanese and Geordie Shiners - but only Tosh liked the name so that fell through ...)
Ha ha ha !!
You've done it again Malc.
Thanks for making me smile again.
I bet there would be a big influx in the South Hertfordshire branch but we better not go there, eh? ;D
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??? well what's the final say..
Join..... YES or NO
Simply one word answers please ! :-\
Is 2 words OK
WHY NOT?
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So it doesn’t matter how long you have been window cleaning, how much investment you have put into your business and how well you conduct your trade you are not allowed to call yourself a professional, your either a one man band or a small firm with no trade representation.
Ewan :)
Professional - adjective
1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
A profession is simply the above ;)
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Regarding customers searching through the website to find out what the membership fee is: I would think that is very rare and those that do are customers who are probably going to be a pain in the neck anyway and not worth having.
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STD) 10. E−mail address 11. Web Site Address 12. State maximum value of work for which you wish to be considered. £ 13. State minimum value of work for which you wish to be considered. £ 14. What is the largest project undertaken to date. £ 15. Turnover Status for past 3 years Year Turnover 16. Please provide details of any associated companies and branches. 17. Are you CITB registered Yes No If No, are you exempt from the scheme? Yes
No
Reg. No 18. Of which Trade Organisation or Federations are you a member ? Form_K29 340 22/05/2007
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Here is an excert from an online procurement form i am currently filling in for a national company
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Hi Dave, I can understand everything that you say and I respect your opinions, but I think that the MGWC is far more suited to me than the Fed or APWC. Anyway all organisations have to start somewhere. I have looked at the other two and the MGWC is far better value for myself. You say £150pa is cheap, well £12 is even cheaper.
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Read q18 it is not me asking the questions, if i werent a member of any i would have to leave the box blank, might not count for much but the question i there for a reason.
As i said earlier im not promoting no particular organisation.
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Anyway no need to reply but whether you type in Fed, APWC, MGWC or MWCA I can't think that it makes much of a difference. Surely the person who hires you will choose you because of your smart appearance, knowledge of H & S, honesty, level of equipment, references etc and most importantly the VALUE for money that you give. Good luck to you anyway.
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Anyway no need to reply but whether you type in Fed, APWC, MGWC or MWCA I can't think that it makes much of a difference. Surely the person who hires you will choose you because of your smart appearance, knowledge of H & S, honesty, level of equipment, references etc and most importantly the VALUE for money that you give. Good luck to you anyway.
Well said Paul!
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Well, never mind.
I am only telling you what works for me, I have picked up £45k of commercial work in the last 3 months so would like to think i know what i am talking about
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Honestly I am not knocking you. If I was you I would be a member of everything as well but I am not, I have been back cleaning for 6 months after a 7 year break, so I have to choose the best for my present situation and there is a lot of support and knowledge at the MGWC for the asking at a very affordable price. All the best.
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Paul
I am sure you will do well , everyone has to start somewhere, i didnt join the fed until i was cleaning for 3 years.
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I don't earn anywhere near that much, good on you! 8)
I would have thought however, someone with a operation your size would be a member of all of them... as it is all tax deductible! 8)
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IDeal
Thanks
The fed wont let me join, lol
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;D :D ;D
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IDeal
Thanks
The fed wont let me join, lol
I thought they would want you on their books so you could lend them some money ;D
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David
Bit of a porky
Have you filled in the FWC application form?
All window cleaners will join what they want to and nobody can change this
What you really have to look at what your trade body is acheiving for our industry?
Money is a big issue but if you look at previous posts about what you are supposed to be earning join for less than one days work
Bryan
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Money is a big issue but if you look at previous posts about what you are supposed to be earning join for less than one days work
Bryan
One days graft, give the money to the FED and get nothing in return, doesn't seem fair somehow ???