Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: cbcs on May 23, 2008, 08:53:56 pm

Title: Warm water
Post by: cbcs on May 23, 2008, 08:53:56 pm
Right stay with me here while I try and explain this the best way I can.

I was talking to guy today that is involved in pressure washers, car wash parts etc.

I was talking to him about making a warm water system for window cleaning. He suggested that he could tap into the heater system of the van, put a valve in and an element in somehow (Not sure the details as I don't know much about engines etc) and then when I wanted warm water I could turn this valve on and instead of warming the cab up it would run into the element and heat the water. Then when I wanted the cab warm just turn the valve back off.

Does this make sense to anyone?
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: RPCCS on May 23, 2008, 10:34:12 pm
Dunno how that would work as the water in a car engine works of circulation. Water is stored in header tank of radiator, is pumped through the engine, then through heater matrix, out the other side ,back out through the thermostat into the header tank where it is cooled by air blowing through fins on radiator and the fan.
  To tap into the pipe and  branch off into a tank or whatever would need a return pipe or the engine would get too hot.
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: RPCCS on May 23, 2008, 10:36:18 pm
What would be better is a heating element from a water boiler that could be adapted to run off 12v supply,eg tab lighter socket
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: Clive McDonald on May 23, 2008, 10:39:24 pm
This has been done, it's not very good. The lighter socket idea is worse.
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: jewelcleaning on May 23, 2008, 10:59:31 pm
This has been done, it's not very good. The lighter socket idea is worse.

 ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: steve.ternent on May 23, 2008, 11:42:15 pm
Dunno how that would work as the water in a car engine works of circulation. Water is stored in header tank of radiator, is pumped through the engine, then through heater matrix, out the other side ,back out through the thermostat into the header tank where it is cooled by air blowing through fins on radiator and the fan.
  To tap into the pipe and  branch off into a tank or whatever would need a return pipe or the engine would get too hot.

 :)  sorry but this is correct...
My advice is to stay clear of messing with your car heating system  :D

Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: windowwashers on May 23, 2008, 11:49:38 pm
This has been done, it's not very good. The lighter socket idea is worse.
if posting as comment like that at least say why it is worse so evryone else that does not know can learn from it, I am guessing myself (I dont know) but would drain battery very quick leaving a dead water heater and a van that dont move. My reason for saying this I had a working light from cig (tab up north :) ) lighter went to start the van later battery dead a as dodo.


Ian
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: shaun Collier on May 23, 2008, 11:55:34 pm
i worked with a joiner who had an ex bt van, that is exactly how his van was plumbed and they had a sink with hot n cold water, BUT, the storage cylinder was in the engine bay and about 15 liters. probably brill for trad but dont think that there is enough btu output from an engine to heat a tonne of water tho.
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: steve.ternent on May 24, 2008, 09:50:46 am
 ::) I just wanted to add

If you used it to heat continuously flowing water (somehow!)

you would at least have to have your van running!  :( 

This being not only bad for the environment, but fuel being so expensive...

Not very cost effective... Only my opinion!  ::)
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: Nathanael Jones on May 24, 2008, 10:07:22 am
The idea behind this setup would not be to have a HOT system,.. as it simply wouldn't heat fast enough and you'd have to have the engine running all the time.
The idea would be to have a lukewarm main tank (prob only 15 degrees Celsius or so) which would be more than enough to keep frost away from your gear in the winter, and keep your hands slightly warmer too.

It would effectively be FREE (after the installation costs) and very simple heating for your gear.
No more watching the weather forecasts and running out to the van to put greenhouse heaters or electric radiators going after you tuck a quilt round the reel!!!

IMO its a very good idea.
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: shaun Collier on May 24, 2008, 10:16:05 am
if you only after a 15 degree temp...then install an eberspacher cab heater. i have one installed in my landy...mines diesal but they do a petrol version. i am amazed how cheap to run it is. it has a 7 day week timer and stat which goes upto 30 degrees but mine is set on 18. i used it all last winter with no probs. cost me £800 but it really is worth every penny. so if air temp is high then water temp will also rise but will take over night. the kits are cheaper if you fancy installing yourself. only uses a teaspoon of diesal an hour

cheerds
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: Nathanael Jones on May 24, 2008, 01:31:52 pm
£800 for a heater vs £100 or so to use the engine's heat?
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: shaun Collier on May 24, 2008, 01:45:25 pm
yeah but engine doesn't need to be running that the idea. guaranteed for 5 years. can be left on 24/7 cheaper than owt else
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: Nathanael Jones on May 24, 2008, 02:08:37 pm
The engine doesn't need to be running all the time,.. its only to take the chill off the water. An hour a day even in the depths of winter is prob enough to do the trick, and you'd prob be driving that much anyway.
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: cbcs on May 24, 2008, 02:16:10 pm
I'm going with the £100 or so option. Watch this space. Start the van on a morning before work, drive to work and water will be luke warm about 15 degrees or so, enough to take the chill out like Nat says. Once the water is warm in the tank it should stay warm for a couple of hours. (tested this before, 1000l tank filled with warm water kept warm for 4 hours.)
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: Clive McDonald on May 24, 2008, 02:18:28 pm
This has been done, it's not very good. The lighter socket idea is worse.
if posting as comment like that at least say why it is worse so evryone else that does not know can learn from it, I am guessing myself (I dont know) but would drain battery very quick leaving a dead water heater and a van that dont move. My reason for saying this I had a working light from cig (tab up north :) ) lighter went to start the van later battery dead a as dodo.


Ian
I'm hardly likely to say it's been done when it hasn't am i? what's more you took part in this post. Wayne did it, heres his comment, he has since bought an omni retro.
I have fitted a 75 litre twin coil calorifier tank into the back of my van. I  have it connected to the hot water outlet on my radiator so that the heat that would normally be dispersed through the radiator is instead passed through my calorifier tank and returned to the cold circulation side of the radiator hose where it is recirculated back through the engine block.
Inside my calorifier tank are two coils with a lot of fins which disperse the heat into the stored water encased in the calorifier which surrounds these two coils. The water that comes from the radiator is filled with a percentage of antifreeze/summer coolant to stop the engine block from freezing or overheating which then pass through the coils inside the calorifier tank. The water surrounding the coils I circulate around my WFP tank via a 12volt, 75psi shureflow pump.
On a long journey the water stored in the calorifier tank gets very hot. I can either leave this hot water to remain stored in the calorifier tank for 24 hours where it would remain hotter than if I circulated it through my very insulated WFP tank or I can transfer it to my WFP tank to use for the day. I have tried using the water straight from my calorifier tank straight to my WF pole but I find it tends to be too hot and the pressure builds up to quick and is likely to blow at the pressure relief valve which I fitted onto my calorifier tank. So for simplicity I use the heat from my calorifier tank by circulating it around my WFP tank instead.
To confuse you even further, in my calorifier tank I have a 2kw immersion heater element which I can connect to an electricity supply for heating the stored water in the calorifier, although it takes much longer to heat using the electric, then it would to have the engine running.
Using the immersion heater with electric cost money. Using the twin coil heat input from the engine costs me nothing if I'm travelling to and from work.
Hope this helps the DIY want to use hot water users 
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: WayneThomas on May 25, 2008, 12:04:45 am
Just to add to the above post. I still circulate the hot water from my calorifier tank as it costs me nothing to heat it into my van tank. My retro heater hardly gets used unless I want hot water on demand for new cleans, con roofs, salty windows or just to wash my hands, lol.
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: Clive McDonald on May 25, 2008, 07:54:20 am
Even I have to agree thats pretty smart,As a hybrid hot system it must be almost unique and save a great deal on running costs.

I have made a few negative comments about drawbacks I could see with the calorifier, and even at the begining oi this thread I dismissed it as a non starter. But I think this is a good example of where an idea starts in one place and then goes somewhere totally unexpected.

I couldn't have forseen this , nor could few other people.As such I suspect with rising fuel costs and a push for greeness this could be an idea worth nicking foir the big boys ,
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: cbcs on May 25, 2008, 07:56:20 am
 ;)
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: Nathanael Jones on May 25, 2008, 09:52:51 am
Even I have to agree thats pretty smart,As a hybrid hot system it must be almost unique and save a great deal on running costs.

I have made a few negative comments about drawbacks I could see with the calorifier, and even at the begining oi this thread I dismissed it as a non starter. But I think this is a good example of where an idea starts in one place and then goes somewhere totally unexpected.

I couldn't have forseen this , nor could few other people.As such I suspect with rising fuel costs and a push for greeness this could be an idea worth nicking foir the big boys ,

You could market it as a "green" system and prob win more custies that way too!
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: WayneThomas on May 25, 2008, 03:53:04 pm
I  don't need to market it as my window cleaning results speaks volumes in new referals.
I have never advertised, although I have been given free publicity in a local parish magazine for excellent results on some very challenging buildings that other window cleaners have been unable to touch.
I wish to expand into larger contracts this year so for the first time since starting window cleaning I will be advertising in the hope of picking up more lucrative work.
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: Jeff Brimble on May 25, 2008, 04:05:03 pm
Hi Wayne  :)
How come you have started again as a newbie
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: WayneThomas on May 25, 2008, 04:06:46 pm
My house got struck by lightning in the recent thunderstorms. I lost a lot of electrical equipment. I'm borrowing a friends computer at the moment.
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: Jeff Brimble on May 25, 2008, 04:08:59 pm
Hope its not one of those times when the insurance company points to the small print disclaimer or not a new for old policy. May be worth getting your own assesor if so.
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: WayneThomas on May 25, 2008, 04:14:18 pm
I was up a ladder several years ago and lightning struck the tree right behind me (about 5ft away). I nearly **** myself. I stopped window cleaning immediately, slid down the ladder in a split second, left the ladder standing against the window and put a note through the customers door to say I'll pick my ladder up in the morning, lol

My insurance is paying out next week so I've been looking for new boys toys in the shops this week as my insurance is new for old, yipee.
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: Jeff Brimble on May 25, 2008, 04:20:51 pm
How many reciepts do you want printing  ?  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: paulscotney on May 25, 2008, 04:42:46 pm
You can get secondhand Eperspachers (from old buses) for about £150. Perfectly serviceable. I stuck one in a boat about 6 years ago. Cost me £100.
Title: Re: Warm water
Post by: Nathanael Jones on May 25, 2008, 11:18:56 pm
You can get secondhand Eperspachers (from old buses) for about £150. Perfectly serviceable. I stuck one in a boat about 6 years ago. Cost me £100.

Look on the german ebay site,.. there's loads of them!

For WFP purposes, the heat output is lower, the running costs are higher, it draws a lot of power from your battery, and the wiring required to make it an "on demand" heater is a bit more complex when compared to a gas powered unit,... but it does mean you'll have no gas cylinder in the van,..... an advantage that I can certainly appreciate!