Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Ian Gourlay on January 15, 2005, 07:07:53 am
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There are two if not three new to the UK machines that some of you are mavelling about.
What is the Water Lift on the Eclipse
and Eds Machine The Recoil
If you put in 4 buckets of water how many do you get back.
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The Eclipse with the three vac motors in series will generate far more lift than the recoil 3 which has very high air flow, this is due to running the vacuums in parallel.
Being one of the lucky ones who owns an Eclipse i can vouch for its power which really does produce amazing drying times, yesterday cleaned my stairs and they were dry in under an hour :o
The water lift on the machine is 249" not sure about the recoil but these figures will mean nothing when comparing these machines due to there designs, the only comparison worth while would be a head to head in the flesh plastic :)
Paul
P.S, which is the 3rd machine???
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Hi Chris,
Not sure about that?? I know Nick has used an Eclipse with very long hoses and still achieved quick drying times.
I would imagine the very powerful sucking force of the Eclipse's VO setup is able to quickly drop air pressure over decent lenghts of hose therefore maintaining effective lift at the wand tip.
Regarding leaving the machine in the van I dont see this as a huge advantage but do plan to leave the machine outside when cleaning domestic properties.
Paul
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chris
if you are going to run the unit from a van why not go for a TRUE DEEP CLEANING machine ,fuel truckmount.
you can get a good second hand set up for less than a new portable.
Lee G
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What kind of lift does the average TM produce??
Paul
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paul
the average truckmount is usally set approx 15" of mercury lift,this can be lowerd of set higher if the user wishes,but will affect units warrenty.
Lee G
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Lee,
Here is what Clean Craft state on there web site ;D
"The Eclipse offers models with 3 Vacuum Motors that produce 249" Water-Lift (almost 18" Mercury-Lift)"
Wow thats more than a TM ;D ;D ;D
Paul
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paul
dont get confused,even the chemspec 860 truckmount fitted with a 56 blower is not set at 18" lift,the setting of 15" is approx standard from the prochem blazer through to the chemspec 860,even though the lift is the same the cfm is miles different.the lift is only a part of the true power of the machines.measurments on truckmount are taken from a larger diameter tube than a portable maybe 100% bigger so the measurment you have posted is only a measurment of that unit,A numatic henry can achive the same lift as you have qouted but through a smaller diameter tube.
cfm & lift need to be in balance.
what cfm does the unit produce??????
Lee G
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I know just trying to get you TM boys going ;D ;D
Paul
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Lee,
The open-port cfm of the Eclipse is about the same as that of a machine fitted with a single 3-stage vac unit.
This obviously does not mean that the two would perform identically.
As you have indicated, both airflow and total vacuum potential are important, the balance between the two is the subject of a great deal of unresolved debate.
For those with further interest in this subject see:
http://www.another forum.co.uk/?board=carp_clng;action=display;num=1082290089;start=0#6
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I thought the Ninja produced abput 24O so thats why I asked how many buckets do you get back.
I do realise it will vary per carpet
How do you measure almost dry.
Is there a moisture meter to carry out this test.
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Ian,
I think part of your original question was very interesting but nobody has answered it,i.e what percentage of water is recovered?
Manufactures can argue endlessly about AO vs VO,series vs parallel, etc but what we need to know is how much water is left in the carpet as this must be directly linked to the drying time.
What we need are direct comparisons .
Cheers,
Doug
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Doug,
Recovery rates can be deceptive.
For any given machine the percentage of water recovered will vary dependant on the amount put down.
To exaggerate for the sake of illustration; the most powerful truck mounted extraction cleaner made might produce a recovery rate of only 10% if used with a single-jet wand fitted with a very small jet - though the carpet would feel pretty much dry instantly. A less powerful machine which is severely over-jetted could have a recovery rate of 95% yet leave the carpet soaked.
Another factor is that a high airflow portable tends to have a higher vapour-loss, especially in association with hot water.
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Having done quite a bit research on these machines and petrol truckmounts at the end of the day the numbers more or less are useless its real life performance on the carpet at 150ft is what counts.
Manufactureres will hype their figures. Example the recoil is sold with 300cfm while the Blazer is sold with 250cfm. Whats that mean exactly I dont know as none of the manufacturers have a 'code' for measuring performance.
If your planning on buying a high performance portable to be truckmounted I would try before you buy as you may not like the performance or 4 leads lying about the place. On the otherhand you may love it.
I love using texatherm and recommend it but is has a cfm of 0 and its lift is heavy.
Mark
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John,
When I say a direct comparison I mean 10 litres ,say to clean a 15 square metre carpet and record how much is recovered.
Cheers,
Doug
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Doug,
When I first built an AO machine, one of the first jobs I used it on was a large, filthy nightclub (Mr B's, Southend).
After the first 30 gallons I checked the bucket boys tally sheet and thought he had miss-recorded, because the percentage recovered had dropped below what I had expected. after the second 30 gallons the recovery ration was the same as the first batch.
Other sections of the club were being cleaned with a VO machine and its' recovery ratios were 'normal' and higher than the AO machine.
Those sections of carpet that had been cleaned with the AO machine dried slightly faster than the rest. (This all within the same building).
Over the years my experience has been along similar lines - in fact I no longer closely record recovery ratios - just monitor dryness. as long as I can walk on every carpet wearing white cotton socks before I leave, I deem that to be good enough ;)
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No problems with the recoil with extreem cold weather I cant use a truck mount in the winter or live in the truck very long must bring inside. I do get better dry times in the winter because of the lower moisture content in the air.
i too never watch recovery just dry times
IVAR ;D
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How do you measure dry times or are carpets dry before you left.
Some manufactures claim dry times of less than hour using HWE.
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Ian,
There are so many factors affecting drying times that less than an hour is easily possible if everything is in your favour.
10 hours is also possible if factors are against.
I still prefer the logical approach of the less water you leave in a carpet , the quicker it will dry given all other factors equal.
I know it is not completely straighforward and where the water is in the carpet will affect its drying,i.e if most of the residual water is on or near the surface of the carpet , then it will dry quicker , than if a lot of residual water is at the base due to the greater airflow.
When appying several coats of sealant /polish to a dance floor last week, it was evident that areas quite close to each other dried at very different rates, much more so that I would have expected.This is obviously down to airflow as the temperature would have been almost constant.
Cheers,
Doug
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can anyone tell us the capital cost of the eclipse and its state of origin
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Ian,
I do not use the term dry when refering to a carpet as it is an absolute term meaning having NO water present.
Very few (especially wool) carpets are ever in this state due to ambient humidity.
I favour "sit-on dry" and "sock dry".
Every carpet I clean, I walk in wearing white cotton socks. If the soles of the socks are not visably wet, then the carpet is deemed "sock dry". Similarly if upholstery is dry enough to sit on, it qualifies for the other term, despite the fact that my moisture detector will indicate dampness.
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Hi Guys,
When I worked in the paper/glass fibre industries I seem to remember that a typical moisture content of a about 7 % was found in dry paper/tissue , so no carpet would ever be completely dry.
Most people would consider if it feels dry it is dry!
It would be interesting on Woodman's day out to compare drying times of different methods.
Cheers,
Doug
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Wish I could go into depth on this issue, but will surfice to say:
Gentlemen;
Both systems will a certain job, I'm sure. And, some systems are better than others. Compare all spec's carefully.
It seems to me that we dry carpets by using "AIR" flow (movement) --perhaps in terms of using box fans, etc...to help get carpet clean and dry.
Furthermore, if a system is capable of going the distance, that may tell one something as to the total over-all performance.
Finally, I believe that Mark Roberts will experience the need for greater Air-Flow on his system based on the fact that he has purchased a unit to help provide that. (BTW, it is not our system, Gentlemen)
Hope my comments did not sound like a sales thread because they were not meant to be.
Good Fortune to all;
Ed Valentine
(Company name held by request!)
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Ed
Not sure I understand your last paragraph.
Please explain.
MArk Roberts
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I cant comment on anything other than the comparison between my now back up machine which is a twin vacuum (VO) unit and the Eclipse.
The difference in power is instantly noticably and i would say there is also an increase on air flow but the actual lift (sucking power) is what puts the Eclipse in another league to the twin vac machine.
Without using a High air flow machine with a parrallel vacuum setup I cant say which works the best at reducing drying times, although i can see the principle behind the AO machine and how it may be superior.
What i can vouch for are the results i've achieved using the Eclipse which have been outstanding with drying times up to half of that from the twin vacuum machine.
I'm sure we can all agree Three vacuums whether running parrallel or in series beats having only two.
Paul
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Mark;
I was refering to your past comments in other threads (??) where I thought you mentioned that you were waiting for a certain product you had ordered from the states to help increase your air-flow (and vacuum).
If I am wrong, please accept my apologies.
Good Fortune to all;
Ed Valentine
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Hi
Been contemplating moving into Carpet Cleaning for some time and I'm glad I found this website before I got the business going! Not heard anything about these machines prior to here.
Looking to start up in the summer, so I'm in the market so to speak! Looks like these machines are definitely worth considering.
Cheers
Dave
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There are two if not three new to the UK machines that some of you are mavelling about.
What is the Water Lift on the Eclipse
and Eds Machine The Recoil
If you put in 4 buckets of water how many do you get back.
Ian,
Just to please you I put four buckets (12 gallons) in the Recoil today.
The carpets were deep, dense velvet-tufted nylon. The carpets were averagely soiled in general but had a large number of 'Kiddy stains' including drinks, crayons and @Girls World' makeup. When I arrived all the windows were open and the indoor RH was 67%.
By the time I had finished the job, most of the carpets were 'sock-dry', the first two rooms were described by the customer as "completely dry".
I measured the dirty water plus the remaining clean and I had failed to recover 3 pints - 96.875% recovery rate. Clearly one carpet type does not represent a representative sample, but does indicate what can be achieved.
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Ed, you posted
Finally, I believe that Mark Roberts will experience the need for greater Air-Flow on his system based on the fact that he has purchased a unit to help provide that. (BTW, it is not our system, Gentlemen)
This sounds to me that your saying I need more airflow even tho I've bought a inline booster???????
Is this what your saying?
Mark
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Chris,
I use bigger buckets. Somewhat less than the 54.5 ltrs. were used to clean a room about 28' x 12' plus stairs and upper landing.
I always expect after fully draining the machine (except on very large jobs) to get the same number of buckets that I put in. The last bucket will not be full, so the shortfall indicates the amount of water either not recovered or lost due to evaporation within the system.
It is a long time since I used a twin-vac machine, but even then I expected 9+ buckets out for every 10 put in.
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Thank you John I can understand buckets.
Now your recovery rate is obviously down to your skill plus your machine.
As stated you achieved a high recovery rate with a twin Vac.
My recovery rate is similar to Chris R.
So is this down to you wand technique.
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Ian,
Today I had an even higher recovery rate - four rooms of grubby Belgian Wilton.
Last night I upgraded the Recoil, replacing the internal two-stage booster with a three-stage. This has improved both airflow and (to a greater extent) water lift.
I do not have the instrumentation to quantify the gain, but the 'real world' difference is most apparent and the electrical load is well within bounds.
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I am not one for great technical details, just never had the head for that type of thing, all I can say about the Recoil is I am very impressed with it's performance overall. Drying times- well carpets are usually dry to touch by the time I leave the job, .
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Simon Gerrard cleans P&O cruise ships on a regular basis and has done for a number of years using his prochem bearcat performer which has a 4 blower on it, he uses over a thousand feet of hoses and also duals with two RX20's at about 400ft each and achives dry times of a couple of hours, the carpets are wool.
They wouldn't use any other method.
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Glyn
Seen picture (sorry cant find it) of Simon machine very impressive believe was based in a Bedford rascal. ;D ;D
Len
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Len
The bedford rascal housed the bruin 2 which I bought off him im almost sure.
The bearcats in a transit though.
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Glynn
I stand corrected still look the part!
Len