Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Simon Gerrard on May 07, 2008, 02:41:49 pm
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This is a subject that I find fascinating. Why do some carpet cleaners stick with electric machines and not upgrade at the first opportunity to a Truck Mount?
Before anyone jumps down my throat for asking the question, let me qualify my position.
I started this business over thirty years ago, at first on a part time basis and then professionally with a Prochem Steameasy 400 and a little later a CheyenneIII, twin vac and that along with a rotary scrubber saw me through to my first national contract with Etam Ladies Wear. We used to combination clean shop carpets up and down the country using only portable machines. My first Truck Mount was a Prochem 100A,16 hp Briggs & Stratton engine with a diesel fired burner, costing £7,500 + vat which was an absolute fortune back then.
Obviously everything I had done up to that point had been acceptable to my clientele but with the advent of the Truck Mount my business changed dramatically in almost every department. Quality went up. Drying Times went down. Cleaning times went down and my repeat and referral work shot up, why? Because people began to trust me as a committed professional and I had never had that sort of respect from my customers before. And I found that telling prospective customers about Truck Mount cleaning my conversion rate from quote to job went through the roof. Likewise I found that people told more of their friends about their carpet cleaning experience and the huge machine we’d used and soon I was getting pre-qualified, ready to buy people ringing me wanting to know when I could fit them in.
I am not suggesting that you cannot do a good job with a portable, because obviously you can because I built my business on them, but would my business be where it is today if I’d stayed with portables, absolutely not. By contrast there are people around today who have made very successful businesses with portables, Ken Wainwright is a prime example of that and I am sure that it was as conscious a decision for him to go down that road as was for me to go down mine.
The truth is there are few and far between portable operators who don’t in their heart of hearts aspire to own a TM and I wonder what it is in their minds that stops them from making that leapt when an entry level TM still costs on £7500, in some cases less, which is peanuts in comparison to what there is to gain for the outlay of so little money.
I’m not trying to start the age old TM versus portable argument, or being elitist or deliberately controversial but I just wonder...why?
Simon
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Good post Simon
If someone says Black I often, just to stimulate debate will say White, or at least Grey
The problem on an open forum like this, is, there have been a few T/M owners who found it necessary to insult 40 years younger I and condemn portable owners.
I'm sure many would love to make the leap, but don't think they can afford the outlay and others who have their personal reasons for sticking with their tried and tested method, others still who try to be different.
If I were 40 years younger, I'd certainly consider a t/m.
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Simon, I think that there are a lot of cleaners that just have carpet cleaning as an add on to other business or try it because its a nice little earner or just do it on a part time basis. I bet there are 1000,s of carpet cleaners out there but not that many full time and totally commited to it as a business like the guys that frequent this forum. I see them every year local to me come and go or a general cleaner will have a co at carpets and upholstery and then realise how hard or technical it can be.
As regards for truckmounts I would say once most cleaners can afford one or can get hold of one at a reasonable price ;), then go for it and dont look back. I had a conversaion with another cleaner on this forum the other day regarding this he has been cleaning many years and has a top of the range porty but is concidering moving up to a truck. I just know if he does do it that in 6 months time he will tell me, he would never use a porty again.
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I see the advantages of being able to do so many calls in a day but most of the big jobs, where i would benefit most, will not allow TM due to noise ::)
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For me its just down to the fact that when I am busy I can earn very good money with my portable, and to be honest its not that hard filling and emptying the waste and clean tanks a few times a day is it.
Certainly see the advantages of a Truckmount to generate business because of size and noise but I just dont need it to earn good money.
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Hi Simon
Truckmounts are the best tool in the box. Absolutely no doubt about it.
The person I am now is someone who works to live. In the past I lived to work.
I have no ambition to be the UK's Carpet Cleaning Wizard cleaning every carpet I can put a wand to. I just want to earn enough to maintain my standard of living. Take Holidays, ride my bike, then retire.
I have for many years now been of the view that to purchase a suitable T/M, and a suitable van to go with it, you're looking at a ball park figure of £30k. Bearing in mind that I have no desire to expand the business, or to do more jobs in a day, that sort of figure cannot be justified within my business plan. So it's a no brainer.
But do you know what? My mind is changing ??? As I get older, the body tires more easily. The body can sometimes hurt at the end of the day. So perhaps I can justify a T/M.
The HydraMaster range looks very nice. The Sproutfire 3.2 is a waste of time IMO (too small) The 421 is all the performance I would ever need, but a 427 is water cooled and with oomph to spare 8) But I'd have to borrow money again for that sort of set up.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Simon what is your opinion of the Prowler 15hp is it as good as a entry level Truckmount or better ?
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Chris,
arnt portys noisy when they are inside?
big jobs, porty must be inside !! Yes !!
in reply to simons question, portys earnt me decent money, and I consider I did a good job.......I stood my corner in the t/m porty debates, even though I knew t/ms could earn you more money, leave carpets drier etc etc. Having worked alongside M. halliday I could see all the benifits of a t/m ,so yes simon In the back of my mind I was always thinking along the lines of a t/m.
Pleased i did , only today a regular noted How much faster the set up and completion was. I charged her same price as last year, her comments " I expected it to be a little more " No, I said its only taked me a fraction of the time, to which she replied " thats good I dont have to hang around for so long with it been so fast " ;D
So , The benifits are not only the usual ones put up ,on here but the custy is pleased it doesnt take so long :-\
Now i know what sort of responce I will get to that last comment ;)
Not knocking portys, just giving my veiws.
geoff
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Ken,
Great reply as always.
A second hand TM might be a good option.
As you say, £30k is a lot of money and that sort of sum of money can put people off very quick. But there are some very good second hand units available from time to time, Brian Willis is selling a Maxx 450 Diesel in a Sprinter van for £8k. OK neither van nor machine are new but for £8k on the road with all the benefits that a TM can offer I'm surprised he hasn't been mobbed.
Lee Grundry sold a van and Maxx 470 for £10k recently so there are opportunities for people to make the leap for really very small sums of money when you consider that both machines above will give their owner the ability to take on any job, big or small and be able to clean them in single or dual wand and have the capability to do well over £100,000 of cleaning per year. That's one hell of a lot of benefits for a measly £8 - £10k.
Simon
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Mark,
To be honest I have only ever seen one at an exhibition so I can't comment.
If you're considering moving up to a TM you have to base your buying decision on your business needs and where you want your business to go in the next five years or so. It is in my opinion utter folly to buy a Truck Mount purely on what you think you can afford because that may well mean that the TM you buy won't have the technical capabilities to take you where you want to be.
If you want to do do domestic and commercial work then you have to ensure that the TM you buy can cope with both types of work and I would suggest that the Prowler may come up well short of the mark when it comes to commercials.
I think Steve Gunn has a Prowler, maybe you should ask him. Failing that give Brian Willis a ring as a Maxx 450D will take you anywhere you want to be.
Simon
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the trunk mount runs on fuel sits on 50 to 60 gallons of treated water which sits in a van which then uses more fuel
because of weight.Its not about how good t/m are its always COST.
PS yes i have had two t/m in the passed cub xl /boxxer.but i like using the customers water and elec small overheads clean carpets happy customer
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But Truck Mounts print money!
Yes, sure they cost a grand or two but where else can you set up a small business for under twenty grand and have the earning capacity of the best part of £100k?
Simon
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100k.. :P
Working 48 weeks a year thats £2100 per week..
Say 6 hrs cleaning a day makes £70 per hr over a 5 day week..
Need to raise my prices!
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Portys are noisy but when working in big building, it is easy to localise the noise, not so easy when parked in courtyard with reverberating noise all around........ Parliament is one place i could utilise the capacity of a TM but the noise is a no no and the security issue of having hoses through open doors is a factor (windows with hoses hanging out is also a no go ) ::)
Rarely need to empty or refill my Speedster during most jobs and even on biggest, only one refill needed.......... and i can do with the exercise ;)
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most cleaners earn half that on average,there is still the cost of out lay,which you need to earn back.
running costs
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My Hydramaster is probably one of the best investments we have made for sometime, we did six jobs today, with ease, I wouldn't have got through them all with our Speedsters, although one job had access problems and we had to use a porty.
The quality of job and drying time is unmatched in my opinion, we have owned a Scorpion in the past too.
Regards
S
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Hi Simon,
You are forgetting that the people who work within this industry have very little money and mostly do it alongside a paying job.
There are exceptions though and I know for a fact that some people can make a full time living from Carpet and Upholstery cleaning, maybe not a good living but a living never the less.
As for people paying £15,000 for a truck mount, forget it! The demise of carpeting in this country has lead to many packing up, even as part timers.
Why would people pay £15,000 for a truck mount then enter an uncertain industry that mostly eats money. You could earn £15,000 a month fitting hard wood flooring, contact and domestic.
Peter
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Simon - can I ask, on average, how many occassions have you found that you cant use a truck mount on a job, because of access, parking, trailing hoses or noise issues ?
Steve
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£100k ::) ::)
i know a lot of T/M owners its a very small number that earn anything near that amount.
Peter obviously you live in a different world to me because In my world what you've said bares no relation to reality
'people who work within this industry have very little money and mostly do it alongside a paying job'
'people can make a full time living from Carpet and Upholstery cleaning, maybe not a good living but a living never the less.'
where do you get this load of crap from? , Peter Blackburns big book of bullpoop :D :D
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Steve,
Honestly....never.
There are people though who work in London and other big cities where parking is a huge problem.
Simon
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Mike,
I know a lot of carpet cleaners too and a good number of them claim to be turning over in excess of £100,000 and that includes myself and by quite some margin.
The point I was making is that a twin capable Truck Mount like the Maxx 450 or 470 can very easily do over £100,000 worth of work per year.
Peter,
I couldn't disagree with you more. The vast majority of carpet cleaners in this country are full time professionals and not just people in it for pin money. As Mike has suggested, your contact with reality is somewhat off the mark but good luck to you anyway. The real truth about professional carpet cleaning is that if your not prepared to put your heart and soul into it then you will never make any money.
Simon
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This is an interesting slant on an ongoing debate.
My question Simon is this. How will owning a TM produce opportunities that would be missed by not owning one (not inc. fire & Flood etc), because the way I see it is this, yes a TM is quicker and produces better results (operator/techcnician dependent) but it is not a marketing tool in its own right.
If I were offered a contract that supported such an investment I would simply approach HM or the like and say right, the work is on its way in, lets work out a deal. The financial commitment without the backing of something to pay for it (and of course your Month to Month living costs)
would have to be in place or it would be like a novice violinist who was a long way off performing at the Royal Albert Hall purchasing a Stradvarius (not the best example but you see where I'm coming from.
Interested to hear your comments Simon.
Pete
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Hi Simon,
You are forgetting that the people who work within this industry have very little money and mostly do it alongside a paying job.
Is what Peter says true?
It's not the impression I get from corresponding to cleaners on the various forums.
A good used 2nd hand TM and van is money in bank for anyone who can book two jobs a day, you will simply clean twice as fast, twice as dry, and time is money.
If your business is still growing and you have a job, keep the porty working until you can't possibly schedule all of your work...then you will know it's time...and hopefully have a stash of money to upgrade to good used TM.
As for seasoned cleaners who have decades in the trade and still can't fathom a TM....I don't know what to say? Raise your prices and die debt free? We have 80 yr olds still pushing wand here, a porty isn't even in their consideration, it's always a TM with an elec. hose reel and a few bits from GreenGlides to make each day tolerable.
EDIT:
"but it is not a marketing tool in its own right."
I would say it very much is.., back when I was still on the truck we frequently had phone quotes ask about truck mounted equip...actually I'd go as far as to say it was expected within my local market.
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I have been using a TM for the last 9 years along side my porty. I can not use a TM on all jobs and use the porty instead, and have perfer to use the porty for upholstery cleaning, or though this is changing to the TM as time move on. (me and simon have discuss this on another forum).
Its the leap from porty to TM, or more importantly the money involved that stops most from this move.
I had spare money and brought my first tm with that, quietly crapping myself as I did that, Simon mention the contract, but I also feel if you are flat out busy than get a TM, it will save you hours a week, and you will never regret it.
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thing is it doesnt have to be dear truning from porty to t.m. all you need is some help ;D which i didnt get at frist until i got my t.m. then a whole diffent world opened up and ive never looked back, at the time of getting the t.m. we were chargeing 35 pounds a suite and 45 if you did the front room dinner as well ! so we were not earning a lot at the time
i was on the road for 5k ! thats van and a large t.m. there are deals to be had you just need to keep looking and waiting . you will get the right deal if you sit and wait ;)
now after the t.m. as come ive spent a good few quid with new van and a full new install but im still keeping the old t.m. why because there northing wrong with it and its now in some cases earning me 100 % more then the portys and 150 % more aday so its earning it keep
as for cost , the only time i here people saying it too much is buy people thats never had a t.m. so how would they know ? and if your cleaning local the extra will amout to around 12 pounds per day which realy is not that bad
a small van may do 50 miles per gallen and a big van does around 25 ish (give or take) if your you doing 25 miles aday thats 5 pounds extra and maybe 7 pounds worth of red dev to run the t.m. wheres all these extra costs comeing from ?? ive havnt seen them
then people go on about they take alot of maintaining ! do they ?? my t.m. is dogged with hours its the frist max ever in the u.k and as never been looked after in its life until i got it , and it still starts up on the button and the blower pulls like a train its never had anything major done to it unlike some of the portys i have
its not dear going t.m. and we can all talk ourselfs out of going t.m. but one thing i can say ive never looked back people are more then happy to comeout with use for a few days too see what its all about and see what little we charge and still make money ! i cant say fairer then that
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Susan's right, many people going from portie to tm get a second hand machine, and perhaps a van thrown in too (does help if you are handy with a spanner though).
As the money builds up you get a bigger newer machine. Today there are some new entry level machines only 3k more than a high end portie, add in 4 year old transporter and you are up and running for £10-12k
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I upgraded to a prowler in January after using portables full time for 14 years.
Always thought of excuses and reasons not to upgrade water aswhere on a water metre, petrol costs,accessability to certain jobs etc etc.
Luckily i am in a position where i am always busy and the final decision to upgrade came when my youngest brother decided he didn,t want to help any more .
Upgraded at the end of Jan and although the first few days took a bit of getting used to it I would never go back to porties out of choice.
Yes I still have jobs where I use the porties because of access ,health and safety issues with certain companies I do work for and also still bonnet clean a lot of offices but the truckmount is my first choice everytime.
I get through the work quicker and easier than I did with 2 of us full time with a portable .
And I never thought the day would come where I would be saying that.
Happy days :D :D
Andy Locke, Melling Carpet Care
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Pete,
With the utmost respect, you have come up with the fairly typical response to this type of question. I don't need one because xyz.
Of course a Truck Mount is a marketing tool, especially for the developing business. In my experience people are looking for something more than a guy turning up with a mickey mouse machine to clean their carpet. That doesn't mean that all portable machines are Mickey Mouse, nor is it casting aspersions as to the professional qualities or otherwise of its operator, but the fact is people don't trust people with portables anywhere near as much as they do the guy that's willing to invest in state-of-the-art equipment because they see him as a committed professional person. That's not what I say, it's what countless of my customers have said for decades, the very same customers upon which I have built my business.
From a marketing perspective you can go out there and do demos on pub, restaurant, night club carpets, THE DAY AFTER THE PORTY GUY DID IT and make sure that he never gets the business again because of all the crud he left behind.
Truck Mounts give you the edge. Truck Mounts give you the ability to clean anything, big, small, dirty, filthy. In the right hands Truck Mounts practically print money.
Simon
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Andy,
While Pete came out with one the commonest clichéd reasons for not owning a TM, you have just come out with the absolutely typical cliché from someone who has made the leap and not regretted for a second.
Simon
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Have taken a job recently that i improved on TM results with porty and Charly Pads :o
Poor finish meant they were looking for someone new and the fact that it is now done 3 times a year instead of 4, means the residues he was leaving had been noticed ........... even the most powerful car is useless when driven by a fool ;D
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Chris,
Couldn't agree with you more and that's a really nice balance to this whole conversation because at the end of the day if you have the right attitude, the right equipment ( and that equipment doesn't have to be a TM) and the right chemicals you can do, not only a good job, but a fantastic job.
You don't do the House of Lords because you're no good at your job and hats off to you mate for that.
Simon
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Simon
I would be interested to know, in the old an days guys used to turn up and clean Shop Carpets with their Prochems often bring several
Are you telling me they did a bad job.?
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I am not sure that Peter's attitude lends itself to someone that should be in business, work does not drop in your lap, you have to keep moving forward, after twenty three years and going through the last recession makes me realize the importance of the following:
Marketing
Careful financial planning
Keeping overheads to a minimum
Giving your business an MOT each year
Putting up prices
Training
Embracing new technology
Investing back in the business
Taking holidays ;)
Regards
S
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I am with Mr Davies THAT WOULD BE MY TOP TEN, wise!!!!
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Hi Guys
A very intersting discussion.
I have toyed with TM's for some time and having reached my half century yesterday it probably is time to invest.
I think I will try a prowler and then if I get on O.K, new van and big TM in 2 years.
I have managed to make a good living using porty's but it is now or never if I want to bite the bullet, take the dreaded VAT step and go for it.
Cheers
Doug
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First machine Ninja (with the crap solvent cleaning system) 2nd TM as I was subbing out too much work, 3rd LM rotary.
Chris
And you passed me work (met a painter and decorator today in wrotham Kent mainly works in Chelsea tractor area can I give him your number also needs a carpet fitter do you know of any one?)
Ian
Been on jobs where there have been four TM, also other one three porty and sat down for two hours waiting for them to finish after I had.
Doug
Is that a birthday or in the cc game ;D ;D
Len
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I had 2 vans using Banes (van mounted portis) but when the other cleaner got the push and I had the phone ringing off the hook the only way forward and with out employing again was to improve productivity and that's why I got a petrol TM, cleans twice as fast and leaves items drier saving me loads in wages and 2nd van insurance and NI and and and...
Shaun
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Thanks Michael,
That's nine, the other would be,
Don't waste time worrying about the competition ;)
Regards
S
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Buy a truckmount this year and get 100% capital allowance. ;)
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Ian,
Sorry, you've lost me.
I did shop carpets with a Prochem steameasy and a rotary scrubber and I did the best job I could with tools at my disposal, likewise anyone else similarly equipped..
Simon
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Simon
I agree my comments are common but if you read mine and yours literally you will see what I mean. You have mentioned going out and doing demos. Thats not the TM mktg itself, it's you supporting it with a strong belief in what you can achieve and the communiction skills to relay that to the customer. Thats more down to the operator than his equipment.
I use methods that I know many TM operators do not use and would happliy compete (not on time but on finished product). Doug still uses portys and whilst he may be an exception to the rule I would bet that most TM operators could not compete with his knowledge (ie finisehd product) and indeed communication skills which makes him the more viable choice for a customer. I want to reiterate my comments which are that the TM does not mkt itself. You must be good at mktg it.
Spencer, assume you are not referring to me when you think that work should land in your lap? I understand this better than most.
Pete
Pete
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Today I've had two team out:
Team One:
Texatherm to clean 1500ft2 of hotel carpet that was already showing signs of shrinkage from the previous cleaner!
Then Prowler TM to clean two other jobs, both full houses.
Team Two
Out with the Extracta Exel and Scrubba doing a secure area where doors are locked behind us and couldn't use the TM even if they wanted to.
Me:
I've spend the day looking for a new van!! and still not decided which one I like best!
The TM is now always our preferred method, however there are times when other systems are needed.
A portable will be able to access and clean 95% of our jobs
A TM, probably about 85%
Texatherm, could be used on every job if we wanted to, but it wouldn't give the same result of either of the other two.
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Couldnt be bothered to read all the replys but heres an honest comment.
Ive a TM, portable and Texatherm. The latter makes the most money per hour and the cheapest to run.
Tms are costly. £5 hour for petrol (Boxer 421), bigger van, better tools etc. If your only doing a few jobs a day and home for 3pm then stick with the portable because a TM will just be eating into your profits.
If your flat out busy ALL YEAR ROUND, not just a week here and there, and you need to find time to fit more work in then a Tm will do this for you.
If you mainly do domestic and small commercial and esp if you use a bonnet system for the latter do you sums before parting with your cash.
Is a TM the be all and end all no way. Will it bring in more work because you have a super dooper new state of the art machine NO it wont.
Will i sell my TM?
NO WAY cause it makes cleaning easier and for me thats worth the cost.
Mark
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Sorry clinton just seen your post.
The prowler I think weighs approx 350-400lb,John will correct me if i am wrong.
Find it great after the initial getting used to wrestling with 50ft lenghs of 2 inch vac hose after using 25ft lengths 0f 1 and a half inch and the initial noise of the machine outside houses. Was waiting for some one to come over and complian but nobody has batted an eyelid except to come over to ask for a card or a price.
Just me being paranoid about it, the job is usuually completed so much quicker and easier . more heat spray pressure and vaccum .
The only change I would ever make now would be an upgrade but quite happy with the power of this machine .
Regards Andy Locke.
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There are many arguments for and against, I have always used portables because I can do my own servicing on them, but I would not be able to keep a TM serviced as I am not a mechanic and my nearest service depot is well over a hundred miles away. Any breakdowns would be costly and time consuming whereas with a portable you can change a pump or vacuum motor in under an hour .
Having said that I know TMs are faster overall on big jobs but as I try to keep to domestic work mostly, speed is not such a big issue.
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29th year in this business and I learnt early on that people were impressed and felt more confident when you had a professional looking machine. During many years this or me meant having a portable that was the most powerfull and Pro looking. However since going TM the number of jobs I have got from neihbours of clients, just because the noise has grabbed their attention and then seeing the machine, has rocketed. I spent a lot of money on my latest set up, but I am confident that by the end of the first year with it, I will be taking £1,000 per month more, simply a result of its overt marketing capability.
Dave.
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Simon,
GREAT TOPIC,
I see there are still people out there that are TOTALLY against TMs, mainly due to ignorrance i think. TMs will not market themselves however, they WILL help with marketing. I have on COUNTLESS occasions offered a FREE DEMO to potential customers. Many of he customers have there mind made up just by my talking to them and the IMPRESSIVE look of the TM. TMs do attract the attention of people when they are running due to the noise however they are not at a noise level that would cause a problem 99% of the time. As many on this forum know, i used to clean night clubs all over the UK. Many of the clubs that i cleaned on the 1st occasion had previously been cleaned via a portable, most clubs has 2-4 portables in taking 2-3 days. They were amazed when i told them i was there on my own and would be finished within 8-10 hours (BIG CLUBS). EVERY manager that had companies cleaning there carpets with portables told me that the clean was a VAST improvement. Nothing short of amazing in the words of many of them.
I can remember the first time i met Shaun Ashmore whilst i was cleaning a night club in Sheffield that was MINGING beyond belief. Shaun was running Banes at the time & i was running a OLD Prochem Cub XL that had about 8000 hours on it. Shaun told me that he wouldnt have taken the job on with Banes due to how dirty the carpets were.
A Truckmount will earn you more money than a portable regardless of purchase & running costs providing you can sell. You can pick up from time to time a real good TM for under £4000. You can find good running TMs that look tatty for under £2000. You can easily make the tatty looking TM look great for under £100. I know this because ive done it. All you need is a detail sander, spray primmer, spray car paint or hammerite/smootherite. You can get new vac, pressure & temp gauges for under £15 each. Old looking brass fittings look near new when cleaned with a green scotch pad or wire wool.
There are some people in this great industry that just simply refuse to move forward for no real reason. I cant understand the ones that say its because of the purchase price yet they are willing to spend £3000 on a NEW portable when they could spend less than that on a used TM that will OUTPERFORM, give more professional impression and last longer than the NEW portable.
Susan,
If you now own the very first HM Maxx 450d that came into this country i can assure you that the VERY FIRST OWNER of it looked after that machine very well. It was owned by Tim Halford in South Wales. I was working for him at the time. Whilst i was there we clocked up about 1500hours (ish). A few years after i moved back to England i went to see Tim. The Maxx still looked great.
Richie.
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Pete,
No, Peter Blackburn, his previous comment was really negative.
S
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Pete,
No, Peter Blackburn, his previous comment was really negative.
Sorry, did'nt see that post. there seems to be alot of that about (negativity that is)
Pete
S
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No one has mentioned that for the fraction of truckmount prices their are portables that have much the same power now or getting closer to it. Scorpion Prowler and the new advance 600psi
Portables are moving forward very quickly at the moment with better pumps and Vacs so this may effect the need or want of getting a truckmount.
In the summer I can make £400 a day no problem using my portable if the work is their.
Times are difficult at the moment for lots of people and the expense of paying £20,000 for a new truckmount not knowing what will happen to the economy is a worry.
For new people to the industry like me I am concerned that a good living could very easily go bad without much changing in the way i do business.
So to spend a lot of money on a Truckmount when for a fraction you can now get portables that are closing the gap on power makes more sense to me at the moment.
Anyway must go plane to catch at lunch time
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Hi Neil
The reason no one has mentioned it is because it is not true, you only have to demo the machines to see there is a massive power difference between electric powered from sockets and petrol/diesel powered.
It is quite easy to work out the amount of power available.
Having said that in the 'clean' end of the domestic markeyt which I and probably you inhabit, a porty can do an excellent job.
Have a good holiday.
Cheers
Doug
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Coming home today Doug, so are you saying that the suppliers are telling us porkies then.
I fully understand that in a commercial market i would want a truckmount but in a mainly domestic market that I inhabit much like you do i need 1000psi on my machine, i think not.
So are the suppliers of such portables lieing to us ???
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Neil,
to be frank , the suppliers ,i dont think are telling you lies :-\
simply distorting the truth is more likely ;) or put another way juggling the figures.
I had a discussion with another cc only a few weeks ago, who in his words told me he had purchased a " I wont give the name of machine " supposedly leader in the porty market :-\ and after several minutes it was quite clear to me he had been indoctrinated :) by figures and marketing, with refrences like " will perform as good as any t/m" and "
more powerful than anything else out there"
I nodded my head , and gave up :'( and yet i know another cc who purchased the same machine used it once and never had it out of his garage since :)
make your own mind up!!!
Geoff
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No one has mentioned that for the fraction of truckmount prices their are portables that have much the same power now or getting closer to it. Scorpion Prowler and the new advance 600psi
Neil
The Prowler is a different beast altogether to the high-powered electric machines you mention. It is basically a truckmount which can be removed from the vehicle if necessary - that is the only context in which you can use the word "portable"!
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Simon
You obviously go after a certain type of Client- Commercial & Knowledgable, so yes of course what you say is true.
However for the typical domestic client, they are perfectly happy/ignorant about performance differences. In fact the golden rule with clients is what is paramount to them in the context of having there carpets cleaned? And I'd say good feelings about the cleaner is No1, the machine outside is about no.5
All that said, for MY reasons I would like a TM ASAP.
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Mike,
Forget the market I am now in because I wouldn't be in those markets if I hadn't made the right decisions years ago. The decision to go from portable to Truck Mount transformed my business and provided the platform to build up to what I have now.
There are lots of myths about Truck Mounts and many of them have been aired here, as they always are.
What I would urge any one that is serious about taking their business forward is to go and work with a guy with a Truck Mount for a day, or demos of a range of Truck Mounts and work and act with facts in your mind, not myths.
Neil,
Let me give you one big home truth. Portables will NEVER be as powerful as even the smallest Truck Mount. The most powerful portable that I know of is the Scorpion and I believe to get it going to its full potential requires it to be plugged in to four sockets because you can only gain so much power from a thirteen amp socket and even then you STILL don't have Truck Mount power.
Don't believe the hype these people feed you and go and seek out the truth.
Simon
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Simon,
I don't have a truckmount as I only tend to work 4 days a week doing mainly domestics and I couldn't justify the cost. I would love one, as it would make life easier but the big thing that puts me off is this forum. It seems to me that, depending on your luck with your machine, you may have to do a lot DIY and tinkering with the mechanics, and knowing my luck, I'll be the one to end up with a lemon.
Running a porty is commonsense business practice for me. I do not believe for one moment that if I went out and bought a TM tomorrow that my business would soar...unless I spent time, money and effort on the appropriate marketing...which I can do without a TM in any case.
Although I can see it could open up different avenues of business.
My thoughts are that you can only consider a TM ONCE you have sorted out the marketing and the enquiries are not only coming in but are also REGULAR.
I do however take the power/speed issue. You just need to use the petrol version of a garden tool to see the huge difference.
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I bought a truck mount after 36 monthsof being in this business; Why? because i had had trouble with the extracta portable with the vac motors packing up etc, and back ache lifting it in and out of my car. As i have said on earlier occasions, the benefits of using these machines are many, and on the rare occasions that i have to use the portable machine, you then see the difference.
They have to be tried.
As far as maintebnance goes, i service it myself, very simple to do. And in two and a half years the only problem i have had is the two vac belts snapped which was my own fault for not checking them, and the fuel pump went, again my fault for nor checking the filters enough.
The tm now has a new Ford Mondeo fuel pump on it and the fan belts for the blower were acquired from halfords with no problems. I do not target commercial work to that great an extent, but know i could probaably increase my turnover by 30%. As long as you are happy with what you are earning.
I find marketing the tm on leaflets does work quite well, the reason being their perception of your equipment. A cleaner wants to charge say £60 for a standard sized lounge. He sees the equipment you have and cannot differentiate between your machine or a rental one, albeit the size is bigger. Will they pay you or hire one?
Customer sees the truck mount and realises straight away that here we have a professional set up with a large outlay and will pay because of this. Its all about peoples perceptions. As i have just said, i am happy with domestic customers, but could easily attack the commercial market.
I have been approached to do builders cleans and am still un-decided as yet. I personally cannot see a problem using the tm for dust removal. I thought about making a brush to go onto the pipe to extract it dry, then introduce water further down into the pipe to turn it into a mulch in the tank. Is this possible?
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the old tM v porty debate, always end up with the porty guys knowing all the answers, and never listening to the tmers who once owned a porty or still do, and use it.
Marketing.
nice sign written van locked up and parked outside Mrs. Jones.
nice sign written van, park up with pipes running into Mrs. Jones.
Both doing the same job, carpet cleaning.
the Tm will been attention to itself, by its noise and the pipes, what an exellent way to say we are here and we clean carpets.
The Tm owners are on the increase in the country, even Ashbys have started to stock them, and they must sell more portys than anyone else
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Neil,
I have two Speedsters and have also owned a Scorpion, we are now running a Hydramaster Maxx, the performance difference is huge, I can do a far better job with the Hydramaster, although I wouldn't knock the Scorpion or The Speedster, they are both excellent portables.
I am back at two fifteen today, the same job last year saw us packing up at 5pm.
Regards
S
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Hi Guys
This is remaining a good topic because it is a polite but frank excahange of views.
Neil,
To say suppliers are lying is a bit strong but the science speaks for itself and as i have tried to debunk some of the marketing myths surrounding chemicals, Simon has done the same thing for machines.
In terms of pure performance a truck mount will outperform a porty because it has more power, in the physics sense as well as in common language.
I have been in the postion of being able to afford a TM but have held back for lots of reasons, mainly associated with the type of work I aim for and my web presence, for example today I have had a dry CC job and a green CC job both a good prices .
There are a lot of customers who want this but most just want straightforward carpet cleaning.
Cheers
Doug
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The other thing that we have touched on yet is the RX20.
If you have an engine powered Truck Mount then you have the ability to run an RX20 and an RX20 will rocket your business skywards, if that's where you want to go.
If your a portable owner you just don't have that as an option and that restricts you to the domestic market, perhaps some light commercial work but that's it. That is not only a restriction in your market, but also in your earning capacity. With a Truck Mount and RX20 you can do pub and restaurant work and by lunchtime have a good few hundred quid in your pocket and a customer who will come back to you time and time again because you just did what they thought was almost impossible, or more importantly you just did what the last guy couldn't.
Simon
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Ha ha,
I have got an RX20 that came with my TM, it is sitting in the garage at the moment, I haven't played with it yet!
S
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Spencer,
That should be a criminal offence ;D ;D
Simon
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Simon,
Whilst I totally agree with what you are saying about TM being better, you still seem to think everyone wants to clean or aspire to clean manky pubs and clubs with acres of carpet. This isn't the case and where your arguement is a little but flawed.
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Back to the marketing aspect. A nice sign written van on a drive with the doors open and the TM running Is a stand alone marketing tool. Marketing is the tools that are there to draw attetion and create interest, and the TM does this on its own.
Once the enquiry is made the marketing has done its done its job, and demos or anything else form part of the SELLING.
Having equipment that impresses
the would be client is one of the most cost effective forms of marketing there is.
Dave.
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Mike, excellent comment. I would rather clean one or two rooms instead of any club, pub or similar.
As for an RX 20, I wouldnt pay scrap metal value for one.
For huge yardage of carpet maybe they have a use but certainly not in a domestic situation.
As RX20 and other rotating machines will void most carpet warrenties on commercial and domestic textiles so I cant see much use for them.
Simon uses them to good effect as he had said so many times. Just dont mess the carpet up or it is yours, no insurance companies will insure against damage as we as cleaners know they shouldnt be used. Ignorance and or stupidity isnt covered by insurance. Accidents are of course covered but choosing to use an RX20 or similar isnt an accident, it is a choice.
Best, Dave.
P.S. I wont comment on the truck mount issue, enough has been said and most know my opinion.....
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Simon,
Whilst I totally agree with what you are saying about TM being better, you still seem to think everyone wants to clean or aspire to clean manky pubs and clubs with acres of carpet. This isn't the case and where your arguement is a little but flawed.
simon is diffent then use he as alot of big jobs where we have none ! we use our t.m. for domestic use only and trust me it works !
when the porty sellers are selling there gear i was lead to belive that its not quite right due the only haveing 240volts to play with this holding back the portys power
where a t.m. is not limated in this way hence it as more real power ???? is this ture
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Its a good job Simon has a bit of common sense, or he would ruin loads of carpets, I mean fancy making a machine that ruins carpets, the mind boggles.
Of course it could be that some people have a closed mind and refuse to believe that either a TM, or RX20, could make they business better, and these same people had never used neither, com' on guys open your minds up.
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MY mind is open, I just dont want to spend the money on it, as a sole trader i can service my clients with what i've got and they are always happy.
I know it could speed up cleaning times and make life alot easier by not needing to spend so much time on agitation and the like but its all down to expense for me and the fact I hate commercial work.
On some commercial jobs I wish i had it because I am knackered at the end of the day sometime's but thats it for me. I have never had it so cant miss it but i no it would be great if I had one.
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OK
How about this.
Someone with a portie with a couple of years experience buys a TM. He could sit at home and look at it or in the first three months of ownership he could......
Give us 5 proactive ways he could get business with it that he couldn't with his/her porty.
And we have already had pub demos. ;D
Now if you want to blow off about what kit you have then don't bother, but if you seriously want to convert people to 'seeing the light' surely some answers like this will go a long way to tip people over to the dark side.
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Karl, what Simon does is what would appear to be, run a very succesful cleaning company. I never said the RX20 would ruin a carpet, I just said it would void any warrenty or guarentee the carpet had, huge difference. There is a company which I wont name that says how good their machines are on carpet tiles. Yet the carpet tile company stipulates in writing that the said machines should not be used on carpet tiles. But still the machine is made and is indeed used by many people on here.
Muck spreaders are used daily, even though they too are stipulated as not to be used on certain types of carpet. Yet still they clean hundreds of yards of carpets. These machines will always be made and while we, miss guided as it is in my opinion continue to buy them and think we clean, then the manufacturers will still make and sell them.
Best, Dave.
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Sometimes Dave when it comes to cheap carpet tile acreage muck spreaders are the best option.
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Dave,
I wasn't suggesting people use an RX20 for domestic jobs.
As RX20 and other rotating machines will void most carpet warrenties on commercial and domestic textiles so I cant see much use for them.
That is complete and utter rubbish designed no doubt to scare monger.
I was the first person to buy an RX20 in this country nearly twenty years ago and in that time I must have cleaned quite literally millions of yards of carpet and guess what, neither Hydramaster who make the RX20, or indeed myself have EVER had a claim from a customer regarding the voiding of carpet warranties, or any damage resulting from cleaning with an RX20.
Do you think Hydramaster are stupid and go ahead and build a machine over two decades that is going to be a liability to both themselves and their customers, I think not. But of course you know better than them.
They say ignorance is bliss, but I think your case, it's astonishing.
Simon
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Dave,
I wasn't suggesting people use an RX20 for domestic jobs.
As RX20 and other rotating machines will void most carpet warrenties on commercial and domestic textiles so I cant see much use for them.
That is complete and utter rubbish designed no doubt to scare monger.
I was the first person to buy an RX20 in this country nearly twenty years ago and in that time I must have cleaned quite literally millions of yards of carpet and guess what, neither Hydramaster who make the RX20, or indeed myself have EVER had a claim from a customer regarding the voiding of carpet warranties, or any damage resulting from cleaning with an RX20.
Do you think Hydramaster are stupid and go ahead and build a machine over two decades that is going to be a liability to both themselves and their customers, I think not. But of course you know better than them.
They say ignorance is bliss, but I think your case, it's astonishing.
Simon
well sorry to say you maybe need to do a iircc corse as then you will find out that the rx20 WILL VOID the warrentie that the mill puts on the carpet weather a rx20 as ruined a carpet or not before !
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Spot
Yes it called a dust-downer! used it on several occasions.
Mike
From the dark side I need to upgrade it’s as simple as that! Now down grading to MS on some jobs. If anyone who is more or less local to me is thinking of going down the TM route e-mail me only got a Blazer but a lot better than my Ninja
Dave
By the time the customer get round to having it cleaned think the warranty/guaranty would have run out, (used your method on a rug a few weeks ago blinding results customer over the moon as for people walking by thankfully there wasn’t any lampposts)
Len
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when i come across a carpet that is trashed there is nothing that cleans it and brings up the pile better than a rx20, when a carpet is that bad, who cares about warranties, i've never used it and had anything but a jaw drop because of the vast improvement.
to get back to the original post the one thing i would say to anyone is that if you can't sell carpet cleaning now, you wont be able to just because you have a truck-mount, it will make you do a better job but it doesn't guarantee work
colin
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Simon, my apologies then if needed. But most on here are domestic cleaners so I wondered why you would suggest to them to have an RX20.
I dont know about Hydramaster but do I think companies make machines and do things that will be a liability? Absolutely. Cem dRy did it for many many years untill they changed their way of cleaning. And in the meantime made millions if not billions in something that didnt work and ruined "some" carpets along the way but hey good luck to them.
At least now they are raising the level in this industry and have changed the way they clean.
With my comments on the RX20, well what do you know, maybe I know more than you think I do.
If I say something I am not just usually right I am right. I know it may upset some people but I do say things as they are. Or I will say it is my opinion which of course is just that.
Maybe you need to find out about what you do and how you do it and its relevance to the industry that you choose to be in.
I do and know that what I do is supported by carpet mills, suppliers down to maintenance "people" who check out what should and shouldnt be used in this industry.
What you do I am sure works well and I am not questioning that at all.
Just you have said I was speaking rubbish when it now appears only one of us doesnt know what they are talking about, oh and it isnt me.
Best, Dave.
P.S. Len, I am pleased for you. No comparison is there?
I understand that the warrenties are long gone, just that we need to know what I have discussed.
I also have never said that an RX20 does or doesnt work. I dont use them for obvious reasons but I know some that swear by them and by the results that they get.
Just for me and what I do I stand by not giving scrap value for them.
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Susan,
I wouldn't believe EVERYTHING you hear on a training course.
If it were true I am quite sure that Hydramaster would be warning their customers of the potential liability they may face when cleaning customers carpets with an RX while the carpet is still in warranty.
Simon
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Have to agree with Simon.
RX20s', use them correctly & you will never have a problem with a carpet.
Not quite sure of Dave's point, " Not saying a RX will ruin a carpet but will void the warranty". He then goes on about a machine for carpet tile cleaning & the concerns the carpet tile manufacturer has with this. Am sure Dave is a good carpet cleaner & understand many like his method of rug cleaning but he always posts here on running threads with " give me a ring & I'll fill you in on the details" or " there is a company which I won,t name which says its machine can be used on carpet tiles ..... but the carpet tile supplier who is also not named doesn't advise this to be used".
Whats all this reluctance to post on this open forum yet have a phobia about giving full details. We live in a free speech society. Spell it out. Libel laws are very much less tough than they were 10 years ago. You should be quite safe
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Well said Paul.
I think there's just a touch of bragging going on in Dave's case and not a lot else judging by the quality of his posts.
Simon
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Simon, before this thread goes pear-shaped, perhaps you could give us some pointers on the best route to go regarding a first-purchase truckmount.
Lets say a porty owner has 10K to spend or maybe even a leasing facility up to that amount.
Do you suggest a prowler with all possible extras - or an entry level new TM or a second hand high spec TM with reasonable hours on the clock ?
I personally wouldn't want to tie up my hard earned on a 5 year old plus machine and possibly inherit someone elses problems. But then I have the same philosophy about vans and cars - they always have to be new if I am going to change one of them.
Steve
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Dave's one of the most genuin guys on here and what he says about this business is normally top information.
Give him a call, he's very open with advice which has worked for me. Top guy with top knowledge.
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Simon,
When you were a little boy did you used to play the game "Simon says". Methinks you are still playing it ;D
I think we all need to accept that despite the fact that we are all carpet cleaners we are a diverse group of individuals with a wide range of clients, types of carpet to clean, standards of work etc. What works for some does not for others and there are many approaches that work. I too have a very succesful carpet cleaning business and it is very tempting to think that what works for me should be apoted by all. However I realise now that this simply isn't true.
For the record I too wouldn't touch any of the carpets I clean with an RX20. I bought one years ago, but it was a mistake for my business and the type of carpets I clean. That said it is a well built piece of kit that I am sure would be invaluable to some carpet cleaning businesses but defintely not all
Nigel
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Well said Paul.
I think there's just a touch of bragging going on in Dave's case and not a lot else judging by the quality of his posts.
Simon
I agree Simon, these people who brag all the time about how big their truckmount is and their accesories ;)
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what do you guys think of my new set up. what shall i put in the spare space? ???
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;D Goron never disappoints
S
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Nigel,
A bit techy aren't we?
I have never sought to persuade you or anyone else of the virtues of how I do things and certainly wouldn't call into question how someone else goes about doing a similar thing, but if you have perceived anything I've said in the topic as that then you have my apologies.
For the record, I too wouldn't use an RX20 on some carpets and wouldn't dream of it on others, but then I wasn't suggesting that anyone should.
Simon
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Ive an rx20 and love to use when I get a chance which is usually only on woven carpets in commercial environments.
Now I wouldnt use it on a wool berber but are there other carpets or reasons Nigel and Dave, where you wouldnt use it?
thanks
Mark
BTW its a pain to use in a residential situation.
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Hi Steve,
I think you've answered your own question in some respects because you don't seem too keen on a second hand unit.
Its is a mistake to buy your first Truck Mount to a sum of money and let that sum of money pick the machine, like the Prowler you just mentioned. The Prowler is a fine machine and may well fit your needs perfectly and if that is the case you would be right to invest in one.
But there's more to it than just that. You must also consider the amount and type of work you have now and the amount and type of work you hope to do when you get your Truck Mount. If you aspire to get into, or more into the commercial market then the Prowler may turn out to be a bad choice because the bigger the jobs, the more powerful the machine you require to do them.
You really need to sit down and have a really good think about where you want your business to be in the next five years and then decide which machine best suits your plan. I say all of this because I've met so many people over the years that failed to consider this aspect of buying a Truck Mount and found that the machine they bought wasn't capable of generating the income to pay for it.
But if you want an off the cuff piece of advice, I'd be looking out for a good mid sized second hand machine in a van that may not be new but will instantly provide you with better quality, quicker cleaning and access to far more lucrative markets and change in your hand from £10K or less.
If you need any further help, please feel free to call me: 07810 522063
Simon
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Mark. In general the carpets which might cause a problem are:
Pure silk
Silk blends
Hand knotted
Paper
Mercerised cotton
Linnen
Leather (obviously)
Velvet weaves
Shag
Cotton
Coir
Entrance matting but not sure??
Karastans
Courtisans
I am sure there are more but these are a few
Best, Dave
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Dave
Following my previous post having a bit of a dig at you, I for one appreciate that you have clarified for those maybe not in the know as to which type of carpets RXs' might not be suitable for
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Yes thanks for that although I knew the RX20 or many other machines for that matter couldnt be used on those fibres/designs you mentioned but I dont come across them that often and more in rugs than carpets.
I was more talking about the 'normal' style tufted and woven wool blend carpets most people have. I assuming from you list you havent a problem RXing these types of carpet if you so desired.
Mark
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Mark, I dont RX anything so cant really answer. Simon must know what you shouldnt RX, perhaps he can advise.
Best, Dave.
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Think I would be still in Stevenage 2004 if I didn’t have the tool to do the job.
Dave
Non-what’s so ever apart from think you may have had more psi from the tap where as I had to use volume took a bit longer. 8)
Len
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The only thing that puts me of truckmounts is the servicing and if they brake down who fixes them.If i bought a truckmount it would be from Hydramaster but they are more than 500 miles away is there places in Scotland that you can take your truckmount to,as i dont no how to change a pump in my porty never mind tackling a truckmount. Darren
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Darren,
On the hole Truck Mounts rarely break down and need very little servicing which can be done by anyone with even the most basic skills.
Hydramaster have an office in Oxford now. But the best place to get repair advice and fault diagnosis is on here where there always seem to either be someone whose had the same problem or someone who knows how to fix it.
Simon
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According to Mr Kelly the Prowler can be fixed at any decent pressure washer servicing place.
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Not much to go wrong with the Prowler that's what it was designed for but the higher you go up the power the more there is to go wrong if you don't do oil changes etc
I was looking at the Prowler but opted for a Boxxer 427, I just like the extra power and I was really impressed with Steve Knight's 427 it had loads more but obviously at a bigger price, all depends on what you want. BTW I do domestic work.
Shaun
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I think pretty much all of the UK Truck Mount suppliers seem to be pretty switched on as far as servicing and parts are concerned. Martin at Hydramaster is a real wizard with the HM range and John Taylor at Prochem is also exceptional.
Simon
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I can't speak for HM but I remember my (fairly recent) days of dealing with John at Prochem and he knows what he's doing and is very likeable too.
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I just want to say that I'm a happy and contented carpet cleaner.
I have a porty, the customers seem pleased with it; I'm happy with the results.
Carpet and upholstery cleaning are the only forms on income I generate but working approximately 9.30 to 4.30 five days a week plus the odd commercial job on a Saturday has given me an income 3 times what I earned as a bank manager and I take about 10 weeks holiday a year. I'm fitter and stronger than I was (present medical conditions not withstanding) and am not stressed
I hope to retire in 5 years and have plans afoot to sell my business at considerable profit. Therefore the return I would need of a TM in extra business (which I am not interested in chasing) means the maths doesn't add up for me in respect of rate of return.
I can appreciate all the arguments from TM owners and in fact I am trying to arrange a day out with a TM owner simply to improve my knowledge but it won't make me buy one.
My work/life balance is fine and I am quite happy so overall I will just stick with what I am good and happy with.
I'm not trying to make a point; I'm just telling you where I am. Everybody else can draw whatever conclusions they like and I'll try and answer any questions you may have.
Live and let live (and thank you everybody for remaining so polite on this post).
Roger
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Andy thanks for that info,i have seen a demo from the ccdo on u tube of the prowler,must say it looks like a nice piece of kit,and you can bring it out of your vehicle. cheers clinton
Whats the link for the you tube demo? cheers.
Martin
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I think the most beneficial reason to owning a truckmount (petrol/diesel driven self contained machine) is time saving.
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what do you guys think of my new set up. what shall i put in the spare space? ???
Goron, spare space? By the time you load the 5 miles of pipes you are going to need in the windy cornish lanes you won't have too much spare space.
Nevil
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Roger makes some valid points,
I think that people can be a little caught up in what everyone else is doing sometimes, owning a truckmount means we are spending less time actually working, which has got to be the best advantage in my mind, but if you are happy with the way you work, why change things.
Regards
S
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This thread had the potential to be a great one however, what i thought was going to happen DID. Portable users that just love to knock a TM at every given opportunity have done so YET AGAIN. Simon started this thread to ask simple questions and said he did not want it to be a TM vs PORTY debate.
At the end of the day some users of a porty are better off with such machine due to their type of work but others would benefit from a TM but just cant see past the end of their noses. Have none of the anti TM porty users ever had a job and wished they had that extra cleaning power? If you answer NO then either you clean just clean - medium dirty carpets or you are telling porkies just to save face.
Richie.
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I think you are wrong Richie.
The posters have all been pretty matter of fact and simply gave their personal reasons for doing what they do with virtually none of the digs that might have been made.
If I have old tools which sit comfortably in my hand, or enable me to achieve better results than " super duper "new, or bigger tools I am unlikely to change.
Ironically, much of what is posted as GOOD reasons to use a T/M are seen by others as GOOD reasons to use portables. C'est la vie !
Cost will always be a factor, for many.................it's frequently posted that you can buy a T/M for around £5 k, but, you need a MUCH BIGGER VEHICLE which could add £12 k to the outlay and much more.
I and a few others have mastered the use of the microvan with the huge benefits available from doing so, eg, access, parking, running costs and about 50% or more saving on set up costs.
I bought a little Suzuki 1300 microvan for just over £5k and it can house a Triple vac / 500 psi portable, 50 feet or more hose, rotary with pads/brushes, upright vacuum, Puzzi and a lot more.
I can go along narrow paths, park in tiny areas, and get around 60 mpg, etc
If I was setting up and had around £40k and 30 years younger I might see things differently.
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This thread had the potential to be a great one however, what i thought was going to happen DID. Portable users that just love to knock a TM at every given opportunity have done so YET AGAIN. Simon started this thread to ask simple questions and said he did not want it to be a TM vs PORTY debate.
At the end of the day some users of a porty are better off with such machine due to their type of work but others would benefit from a TM but just cant see past the end of their noses. Have none of the anti TM porty users ever had a job and wished they had that extra cleaning power? If you answer NO then either you clean just clean - medium dirty carpets or you are telling porkies just to save face.
Richie.
Richie
Exactly where has anyone knocked the TM???
As Rob has said many have given simple reasoning why its not right for them or that the finances simply don't add up at the moment. Your right it is a good thread as long as it stays as a debate and not an accusatory stand off between differing sets of opnions.
I have seen this happen on so many threads. When you get personal it loses its value and I for one switch off (as I believe many others do to).
Pete
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Richie
You say simon didn't want it to be a TM vs Porty debate. Then why start a thread titled 'Why not a Truck Mount?' ::)
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I think the people who benefit from all this, are the dealers rubbing there hands together, you buy one machine you what a bigger one etc etc ( boys and toys).I went the other way from t/m to porty/host etc. Had a t/m for over 13 years do i miss it no because i no longer clean pubs night clubs do i miss cleaning heavy bar tar carpets like hole in the head no.Do i like using portys /host and bonnet system yes makes it fun again!!!!. have my customers ran away NO.
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Carpet Guy
I agree with you almost wholeheartedly, it's all about being happy with your lot and you clearly are and you can't ask for more than that.
Simon
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Mike,
Why Not A Truck Mount?
Surely the question is why don't people have a Truck Mount? It wasn't a provocative question, it was merely framed that way so that people would respond exactly as they have and discuss the pro's and con's in a calm and measured way. Is there something wrong with that, Mike?
Simon
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maybe because they do not what one simon,i can see why you use one or two .any way are you still cleaning the ships!!
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I think because it is a large investment for the small business to make to jump from portable to a TM , and let face it I know of only one person you went from a TM to a portable through their own free will. That speaks volumes.
Certainly didn't view Truck mounts as anything special until I used one on a job I had done with a portable and bought one that day.
Let face it it the same sytems as the portable, just more available vacume and pressure. Which is what most people aspire to as it makes the job easier sometimes.
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Simon
My comment is more aimed at Richie's response who seems to think just because some people aren't agreeing every CC should have a TM that they are knocking TMs.
These threads don't change minds, they just demonstrate peoples belief systems and how entrenched they are.
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Paul,
But surely twenty grand in this day and age to set up a small business with the means to generate sales up to the £50K - £60K a year and well beyond surely that is peanuts in comparison to the set up costs of other small businesses. And then of course there's the profit margin, where else can you get a business that gives you 90% gross profit? Christ, it's almost printing money if you're prepared to go out there and get the work.
Simon
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If you look at it this way
You buy a medium van new £10k, 2 x porti £3k with all of the extras, then you replace 8 x vac motors and 8 pumps over a 4 year period £20k?? just over £100 a week to buy with bank loan.
You buy a medium to large van £13k, TM starter £7k, fuel £6k over a 4 year period £26k?? just over £135 a week with bank loan.
The real reason people don't want to buy is because they are afraid that work will dry up and it's a commitment but so is a morgage and feeding the kids etc (don't forget I've deliberated over these issues)
Shaun
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as many people know my hubbys is the car trade and we stuff like this all the time , we have a local window cleaner that as a old transit . now there northing worng with it apart from its dogged with miles 295k
now he moans like hell about it all the time but wont buy a newer van yet he gets a new car every two years he now as an evo 9
the thing is hes willing to go out and spend 28k on a car he will drive on a weekend if hes lucky but wont go and spend 28k on a set up that allows him to buy a new car every two years ???
madness
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Shaun
You're right, but then I know so many people, Glyn Waterworth being the most notable who was dead set against Truck Mounts for years and years until he bought my Prochem Bruin. Within a year Glyn had bought a Maxx 470 and another van and a year or so after that got a brand new van with a brand new Maxx 470. Glyn will be the first to tell you that not only was he wrong about Truck Mounts and what they can do for your business , but that he never made any money in carpet cleaning UNTIL he bought his Truck Mount.
Simon
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I know of a cleaner in North Yorks that charges £195 plus vat to clean a 3pc and uses a rug doctor pro :o
I don't think a TM will get you loads of work on its own that'll depend on you but it makes enough noise (and the right noise) to get people interested and show that you really mean business (even if you don't!)
Shaun
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Simon,
Youve got it spot on there. In my case, in the business with porty's for 23 years, busy as hell, but just treading water, went on the Fast Track which gave me extra marketing tools and led to an increase in turnover, bujt could not fit any more jobs in. Took the plunge and got a entry level TM - Take Off! Could now easilly do twice the number of jobs I had previously been doing and my turnover doubled in the space of 12 months.
Dave.
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Sought of connected question. You often see 2nd hand TM on here, ebay etc and they may be 3-4k, why aren't they snapped up to make huge ££££ with?
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Mike,
The simple answer to your question is, fear. People are scared to death of parting with what they already have on the promise of something better.
Nobody is suggesting that if you buy a Truck Mount you will make huge £££'s just because you have a Truck Mount, but the ability to make lots of money is there if that is what you want.
Funny thing is, you never hear of someone saying, 'I never really made any money in this business until I sold my Truck Mount and bought a portable.' It's always the other way around, I wonder why?
Simon
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I think people are scared of buying a 'dodo' because they don't know what to look for on second hand machines, a bit like buying your 1st car albeit that because of the lemming mentality everyone will want to go out and buy a used car.
Shaun
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I think you are both spot on there. I think fear holds most of us back even if we don't realise it as such.
There are probably some cracking buys but if you are not experienced with these things you don't know if you are being sold a pup.
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I spent nearly £22000 buying a new tm and newish van two and a half years ago and i think it was a good investment. At the time, a Chem dry franchise was around £24000, so what Simon says about this being a reasonable investment is right.
Every year, another person who is made redundant sets up as a carpet cleaner, charges rediculous prices which effect all the other carpet cleaners. They might not be in business for long, but the customer then questions your price which might be £20 - £30 more than the cheapie carpet cleaner, so you have to try and justify it.
Anybody who has made the outlay for a tm and vehicle, which is obviously no good for any other purpose, is perceived to be professional in the eyes of the customer and they are not then reluctant to part with their money. As my nearby tm,er uses in his advert, more power for your pound.
When i bought mine there was him and me. Now there are 4 working the area. I can see in a few short years, the tm being the norm. The only thing that surprises me is that the porty users have not accused us of harming the planet with our exhaust fumes.
I still consider myself to be new in this business even after 6 years, and find it inspiring to hear of tm users who are hitting big bucks. Can dave please explain a little more about this fast track, or Simon explain more about marketing yourself towards getting commercial work and contracts.
Dave
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Dave
Yes, you are a contributor to killing the planet, shame on you. ;D
I also would like more info on how to use a TM as a marketing tool, without giving too much away obviously. ;)
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please can they make machines that self clean the waste tank t/m and portys and at a press of a button the hoses disappear back into the van or bag.do you think t/m as a advantage in fabric cleaning.i have found it takes the same time with a cfr as it was with my t/m.the only diff was cost in running the machine for 3 hours
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Mike
I think that the majority ot tm users qoute the drying times compared to the portables. I used a portable for the first three years, and i thought it was the muts nuts compared to diy machines, but things started to go wrong which equals money.
I still use my extracta excel on some applications where the tm cant reach.
I did not have the money to buy a top end tm but bought a new entry level Blazer from Prochem. If i am honest, the first job i did with it was a nightmare and i thought that i have made a big mistake. I had no hose reel at the time so was using the boxes that the pipes came in. The power was so great, you could see the carpets lifting.
After a few months, i made a hose reel, figured it out more fully and two months later earned £305 pounds for eight hours work cleaning two small rental property carpets for an estate agent.
After achieving this, i work on probability that if you can do it once, you can do it twice. And think about this, if a tm is serviced it will last a fair few years, so divide it's cost by say Ten years and you have got a good investment, even better if the machine lasts longer.
In short it is my opinion that the customer will part with more money when they see what outlay you have spent, and watch the customers face when they see it in action. They can sell themselves.
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Mike
Mines for sale £12k very well looked after, no expense spared last week new rocker gasket £5 also throw in two contracts free! Don’t do e-bay. Also offset by planting a tree (ok a bonsai)
Dave you mean to tell me CD haven’t been on your case, used to love their letters, I always try to discourage porty boys upgrading in my neck of the wood Parking, HOSE REEL WHY ???
Len
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Len
Knowing you it's very well looked after. This weeks plan however is to get a Transporter for about £4k and a get a new Prowler, but plans change, with the wind.
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No us TMer's re not all poisoning the planet, like myself more and more are switching to enviro friendly LPG, and electric hose reels.
For Fast Track onfo contact Alltec, its changed a bit since I did it 6 years ago.
Dave.
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I am more than happy to explain how a Truck Mount is also a marketing tool.
1. Your Yellow Pages Ads include either a picture of your TM or you explain that a TM is up to ten times more powerful than conventional electric machines and that because of that yours carpets will be dry and ready to use in hours, not days!
Does that get you extra business? You bet it does.
In other words you sell your prospective customer the benefits of Truck Mounted Cleaning, you cannot do the same with a portable because the public are to some extent or other wary of portable operators because at some time in the past either they, or a friend of their had their carets cleaned by a guy that arrived on a BUS carry a portable machine that left their carpets wet for days and when it finally dried it looked no better than before and they don't want that, they want it done properly this time. These aren't my words, they are countless customers words. Now before anyone jumps on my back accusing me of suggesting that all portable operators are crap, I don't think that, for I know perfectly well that there are some guy's like Ken Wainwright and many others that have made very successful business using portable machines but we're talking here about customers perceptions of carpet cleaners and sadly portable operators seem to be all tarred with the same brush and a Truck Mount gets you away from all of that.
2. You turn up at a job or to do a quote and open the side door of your van and you get the 'WOW' and suddenly you are taken seriously.
That's marketing, because marketing is about turning your prospective customers in your direction.
3. You can use a TM as a demonstration vehicle. Show - Don't tell is a fantastic way of getting business. And the best way of all is to invite a pub, or better still a brewery chain to turn up at a job where the carpet was cleaned YESTERDAY by their existing portable operators. Then quarter fill your recovery tank with water and empty it in front of them so they know there are no tricks being played. Then clean a small section of carpet and empty the tank again.
End result? New customer. That's marketing. You cannot do the reverse with a portable.
4. You've just finished a job and you get this comment, 'My god, it's never looked that clean before.' Not only is your customer chuffed to death with the end result, she wants to tell the entire world about what you just did.
People are impressed when they see a Truck Mount in action and they instantly change their perception of you as a professional and seem only too willing to spread the news to anyone who will listen and what better way of marketing your business than have other people do it for you.
Again. let me stress, I am NOT casting aspersions on the portable community, I'm merely reporting what I hear on a daily basis.
Simon
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Been following this very interesting thread over the days, not looked at todays post but will do soon.
Reason why I have not seen todays post is because I have been busy having a truckmount fitted to my van.
Yep you read right, I GOT A TRUCK MOUNT
I bought a CFR500 2 years ago and the quality of my service to the client improved over what I di dbefore.
Last Aug I bought a 2nd hand Scorpion and again the quality of my service improved.
and in both instances I felt less tired at the end of the jobs.
I respect the truck mounted carpet cleaners that contribute to this and other forums and I have listened to what they say.
Always looking at improving my service and with less fatigueso earlier this week started looking keenly at a 2nd hand unit - remember in a early post Paul Moss referred to a discussion he had with a cc who has a top end porty? Well that was me.
I spoke to Paul and a few TMs as well as entering discussion with a seller.
Today been down to south Midlands to pick it up.
How much did it cost me ???
£2050 and that included about 40' of suction and solution hose.
I have put a photo on for you to see it in my van.
Not permanantly fitted yet.
I want to have a frame made to lift the unit up and have clean water tank underneath.
All bolted together and to the floor for safety.
Looking forward to my first job with it.
and look what sort of "spare" machine I have - a top end porty - a Scorpion!
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Well done Joe, guarentee you wont look back ;)
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-Good luck Joe :) I will be interested to know how it compares with the Scorpion when your up and running.
Mark
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Well done Joe, join the club, I think our Hydramaster is excellent.
Regards
S
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Joe,
Well done. Keep us up to date with how you get on with it.
Simon
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Sorry photo didnt come up.
Tells me the image is too big - VGA 640x480 thought ot would be ok.
Cant find my bit of software to reduce it - somewhere on my computer cause I had to reduce my photo when we all started doing that a few weeks ago.
Any way - if you want to see it, it was for sale on this forum!!!!
Go to the buy/sell section and go down to May 5th - truck mount for sale.
Some of you will know the seller - Dave Atkins.... nice guy, and his wife who fed me, and his brother in law who had the fork lift truck. Thanks you guys.
The Chemspec Avenger 450.
Been stored for about 6 weeks now but started first turn of the key (glad about that as I didnt want to do a push start :D)
Works fine.
Now on my shopping list
a glide
water tank (John Kellys phone will be ringing next week)
a 12v pump (ideas please)
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Well done Joe,
Yes let us know how it changes things for you over the next few weeks.
Mike
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Keep you informed how I adapt to the change
Clinton, I bought Steve Gunns Citroen Relay in March.
Bigger van then I needed, but got it for the advertising space - cant see why some dont sign their van.
OK may cost a few hundred but its mobile advertising and parked outside a customers house for an hour or few. Perfect.
If you remember Gunnys van had his photo on :D
Slowly I started to remove the signs but one of the last things I removed was the Steves photo.
What spurred me on to remove it was when a customer said "thats a good idea putting YOUR photo on the van" :(
That was it - photo off! Sorry Steve ;D
Of course, now I had a van with a lot of space inside..... and it seemed logical to utilise it the best way - a truckmount.
So to keep the thread running - why not a truckmount?
Suddenly though, what was a large space gets filled up.
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Yes, well done Joe. Not sure about Mike asking you to let us know how it changes things for you over 'the next few weeks'. Would assume getting into truckmounts is more of a long term commitment
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Can I ask what methods of agitation most of you TM guys use? And how often do you use it, if at all.
Pete
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Joe you got a really good bargain I hope you're pleased, John will advise you on tank, fitting and the demand pump and if you snuggle up to him and go up to Newcastle he'll probablt fit it all in and get teh demand pump working properly.
After that it's a matter of getting the work in, doing the work you'll become fat and lazy like Steve Gunn ;D
Shaun
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Hey Clinton - your not far away from me - Warrington.
Give us 2-3 weeks to get sorted proper and if you want to come over and have a peep you can.
email on my profile or tel. no on website
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Joe get a fabricator to make you some framed racking, tomorrow I'll take a pic of mine so you can have an idea of what I mean.
Shaun
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Pete
In terms of agitation I don't think a tm is so much different than a portable. It really all depends on what pre-spray you are using & the quality/quantity of the crap in the carpet. Only use CRB's' myself if required as anything else to much sweat.
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Shaun
Fabricator ??? ???. Is that another word for a welder?
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Hi Joe just come in and seen your post .good to see you have made the transition from portie to truckmount.
It was me who was on the leather course with you and paul last year,didnt realise it was you until I seen your photo the other week.
Youve made some posts in just a year am sure I told you about these forums last may.
Ive not long swapped myself from the ninjas to the prowler ,you will probably hate it for the first day or two but just persavere and you will never look back.
As shaun said John Kelly top bloke will be able to supply the water tank and the demand pump and at afraction of the cost of what some other companies whant .
Happy truckmounting , Andy Locke ;)
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You sure got a bargain on that TM Joe. Good luck with the future, you wont be sorry you made the leap.
Richie.
PS
Although this has not tuned out to be a full blown slanging match regarding TM / Porty i do feel the odd post has had a dig at TMs. Simon worded this thread start carefully so that it was not aimed at been a VS thread.
MR Gayton.......Gone are the days of Steaming Sam then ;D
Richie.
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Great post Simon!
Dont think I've ever seen such interest and detailed debate on this issue. Normally turns into a porty vs t/m dabate.
Nice one Joe for your upgrade, you wont regret it :D
At the end of the day every carpet/upholstery cleaner knows a t/m is the ultimate tool. The answer to buying one depends on the individuals workloads and commitment to their business and achieving the best results and company profile as possible.
Anyone can sit on the fence and achieve good results and earn good money using a portable.
If anyone wants to take their cleaning speed, quality, drying times and earnings upto another level a t/m is the only way to go!
Forget the expence and running costs, they will dissapear quickly after neigbours and friends of who you've cleaned for are ringing for your services....
A t/m is an excellent marketing tool. The best you can get infact!
Not only does it show you're commited to your business it shows your serious about providing the best equipment and service available.
I took the leap last summer and remortgaged to upgrade, best thing I ever did.
Work now rolls in, from past customers and new referrals all keen to see how good my super duper machine performs. Not only domestic but commercial as well.
If you're busy or looking to be, buy one ;D
All the best,
Jason.
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OK - I know its 5.30am and here I am posting .... but just caught up with yesterdays posts.
Must agree that Simon really set off a great debate with Why Not a Truck Mount?
I have not seen a thread before that has generated so much response in such a short time (Wednesday evening start I think).
Glad its not turned into the usual porty v TM stuff, and altough their was a danger at one point of it getting too personal overall the debate has been very civilised ........ must be something in the water :)
One of the points mentioned late yesterday afternoon was a fear of taking the step and buying a 2nd hand unit. The fear you might buy a bad un.
Definately i can say I have been there.... recently! ;)
I bought my unit off Dave Atkins. Now I didnt know Dave Atkins and I dont think he posts on here very much but what I did was this.
On Monday evening I rang him and talked for about an hour or so about the unit he had for sale - Chemspec Avenger 450 (which is the same as Prochem Blazer Plus).
Now Dave is a very soft spoken guy and seemed very nice. Although I dont know much about truckmounts I have some mechanical knowledge ie apprenticeship, used to repair my own motor bikes/cars ( in the days before they got computerised), used to do motorcycle grass track racing and stripped my own engines etc..
So I used my knowledge to ask questions to Dave and see what came back. I got a feeling he knew somewhat what he was talking about.
Onto the internet to find out a s much as I can about Avenger 450/Balazer Plus and that included using the search on here and Clean Talk. This went on until Thursday evening.
Tuesday I spoke to Paul Moss on the phone for a good 30-40 minutes.
Wednesday I had a chat with Simon Gerrard on the phone, another 40 minutes or so.
(Funny, but it was after this chat that Simon started this thread)
Thursday I spoke to Prochem servicing dept, Shaun Ashmore, Len Gribble, and Steve Gunn. All experianced truck mounters, some with direct experiance of the Avenger/Blazer - in fact Len still has his after many many years. (thanks all you guys for the time you gave me).
and finally Thursday evening at about 10pm I spoke to Dave Atkins again.
Went thro some of the points again but also threw in some more questions relating to points from discussions with the others.
That was 11.00pm Thursday evening finished talking to Dave Atkins after agreeing a price, 9.30am Friday morning I was robbing a bank in Warrington :o, 12noon I arrived at Worcester (lovely countryside).
Moral of the story.... yes I was afraid of taking the wrong step and buying a pig in a poke BUT I asked questions of the guys in the know .... and as you would expect got a lot of help. Most knew Dave Atkins to a greater or lesser degree and said nice things about him all of which gave me confidence to go for this unit.
Getting down to Worcester we then went a few more miles to Malvern (the countryside gets better) to his brother in laws industrial unit.
Dave has a new Hydramaster Maxx in his Sprinter and since taking out the Avenger it had been stored about 40' up in the air on racking.
Down it came, various bits attached like fuel tank, dirty tank, and finally battery (that been in storage too). So nothing had been touched for about 5-6 weeks.
First turn of the key and it started. That gave me confidence.
OK - Dave pushed in the choke a bit too soon and it stalled (to be expected), but once started again and up to temperature I got going on a loose piece of carpet with a 12" wide 1.5"dia 4 jet Westpak with a greenie glide, engine sounded good etc - so a working demo.
Got the unit loaded into my van, most of it connected up again, parted with my money :'( and started the journey home at 4.45pm.
Took a call on my mobile (handsfree bluetooth through my Parrot Steve Gunn left in the van when he sold it) which gives me a quote to do today...... so the day was a good un overall.
Only downside was I was watching a portable in line spray unit on ebay which was due to finish at approx 8pm Fri evening. Got in at 7.45pm, said hello to the wife and onto the computer.... only to find the seller had ended early (made a deal with the top bidder at a silly low price).
So if anyone has one for sale - Im interested.!!
So yes there may be pigs in a poke out there but doing some homework prior to doing a deal will contribute to you maybe not ending up with one.
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great post joe i too got a secondhand t.m. that was very high on the hours it came in an old transit that had seen better days :( after a long talk with hubby we wriped it out of that van and put it to my transit which is still old (w reg) but mint
it run for a month of so befour we took it all thew way to h.m. just for a heath check where it passed apart from a few manor things
ive have just gone out and spend a large amount of cash on a new l.d.v. maxus van which is fully loaded with goodies like air.con and alloys ect ect and spend a few quid on a new install but ive kepted that old max due to it again being sent to h.m. for a full heath check where i told then to be truthful and if its not worth keeping ill buy a new t.m. too go in the van
martin give it the all clear and said its good for years yet !! so its stopping with us
i gt the full set up for the right money (cheap) and never looked back ;D
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Joe and Susan excellent posts, I guess the help is there if you ask and it's worth taking that 'leap of faith'.
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I got myself an old dog of machine. Spitfire 4.0. The deal was too good to be true.
1k for machine wastetank 100ft of both pipes and wand.
Even got a manual with it. I had to fit my kohler engine to it as the B&S was very tired. I havn't really noticed a big differance in work volume but speed and quality has gone through the roof.
I reckon a lot are put off by the fear of something going wrong.
Lets face a Tm is a potential money pit unless you can afford a new one. Not everyone can fit a new engine or weld up an exhaust manifold. Or figure out why it's not doing what it's supposed to. If I couldn't do these things an old machine wouldn't be an option. In most cases it's finances that dictate if you can afford a new one.
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Hi Richie, the steaming sam days ended 1997 as you know,then it was the genie. i am still doing well gone back to a one van buss ,more happy that way.Why i like using other machines it got a bit boring doing it the same way when i got my first prochem cub t/m 1992 most companys had poryts like prochem metal box thing not vary good,so we market that we used trunk mounts,got ridge of the last one the boxxer found it too big for what i needed but i no longer clean for bass tav or any night clubs evan with the t/m they are hard work (pub cleans etc), I love domestic work and office cleans with encap, the end of the year may look at a spitfire because its small ,but i like cleaning fabric with my CFR 400 not stopping to fill up using the custom: elec etc etc .
what t/m have you got ring me some time mick
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This has got to be the best topic I have read on this forum - interesting, enlightening and I've got to say inspiring.
When work and money allows I think I will be seriously looking at a truckmount, especially when my next porty could cost upwards of £2500 with all the extras.
In the meantime I will have to struggle on with my old Prochem :P
Steve
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Hi Mick,
Its a HM Crossfire 4.2. Ive sent you an emial.
Richie.
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I think it is great that Joe has taken the leap and I am sure it will be interesting for all the other 'interested but wary' ones to see how he gets on with it.
One of the great advantages of forums is that we have all made contact with other carpet cleaners and become exposed to lot of knowledge, experience and differing views across a whole range of issues and I think that is a wonderful development for our industry.
It also makes possible what I am about to suggest. Clearly the vast majority would, if they could upgrade to a Truck Mount at some point in time. Everyone knows that it makes sense, everyone knows that you will end up reaping far more benefits than problems, but none-the-less there's still that sticking point, the 'Ah yes but...'
The 'Yes but' usually revolves around money, 'I can't afford one.' And from there the whole issue gets dropped simply because you cannot see a way of affording one.
So here's a slightly different approach that lets you see the benefits for real, the quality, the speed, the customer satisfaction and at the same time have all your questions answered in one short day.
On this forum you are surrounded by fellow members, most situated well out of your area who have Truck Mounts, so why not make contact with them and arrange to go out with them for a day and see them at work on a real jobs and ask all the questions you like. Do that and I'll practically guarantee that you'll go home buzzing with enthusiasm and you know what? Having seen all of those benefits you'll suddenly find a way to afford one, because suddenly it's no longer a matter of 'Oh, I'd like to own one, but I can't afford it,' it's now a matter of, 'My Business needs one!' And when you need something as opposed to just wanting it, suddenly things you once thought were impossible become possible.
Try it, if I'm wrong, what have you lost?
Simon
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bang on simon i am more then willing to take somebody out for the day as ive said in anthor post what have people got to lose but a bit on diesle money ????
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Joe
Wait till you get the tank then take a lot of measurements for the fabricators also ask for the lightest for the purpose (mines Angle iron) don’t get it paint sprayed take it to a powder coater (shame you are not local I make a few bob recommending customer have there rads done)
It seems/looks like I’m more frugal than Shaun but you have to understand very expensive wife new wiper blades today £55 ouch the list is end less.
Mike
Mine dose not come with Van so a barging 8)
Dave
Thought the Eu was looking at patio heaters gases. ;)
Len
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Len
Your posts always remind me of that Stanley Unwin geezer. ;D
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;D ;D
len
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Did a job yesterday morning and on the coffee table was a piece of paper with the names and numbers of the two carpet cleaners they'd rung for a quote, us and another local Truck Mount operator.
Ominous or what?
Simon
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As joe uses cold water cant see why he need a truckmount just fill Scorpian with customers hose and away you go.
;D ;D ;D
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I think we are starting to get a bit carried away here with truckmounts ive been cleaning carpets for 3 years and only once have i been asked if i used a truckmount and the customer was american.I would say 99% of customers dont no what a truckmount is and to be honest dont realy care.The amount of customers that say thats some machine that when they see my raptor i dont realy think it would make much difference to them if you just came in with a wand and hoses and told them you have a truckmount in the van.I no truckmounts are a lot better faster and quicker drying times and i will be getting one in a couple of years but fot the moment iam more than happy with using portys and so are my customers.
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Darren,
You're saying all of the things that portable guy's always say, when you do finally move up, you'll be saying all of the things that ex-portable guy's always say, I WISHED I'D DONE IT YEARS AGO!.
But hey, f you're happy with your lot then you can't ask for more than that, can you?
Simon
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Simon
Old people say they should have bought their caravan earlier too. You have to be at the right point in your life.
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I would love to have a truckmount just now but cant afford it at the moment as i just bought a new van on dec2006 and we also do window cleaning and have a wfp system in the van at the moment but it works well with the portys.I would have to put 2 vans on the road so i will just wait a year or 2 and build up the carpet cleaning side.Also would a nissan primaster lwb be big enough for a truckmount.
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Darren
Are you aware there is a portable wfp system (have to say nice bit of kit) it also uses customer water and electricity. Both would fit in my Vito.
Mike
Caravan some of my best holidays, camping Nautic Almata Spain highly recommend it. ;D
Len
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I rest my case ;D
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Mike
But I was a lot younger then 85 I believe, that’s 1985 doesn’t time fly. ;D
Len
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As joe uses cold water cant see why he need a truckmount just fill Scorpian with customers hose and away you go.
;D ;D ;D
Seems to me a story has got round that all Scorpion users have been indoctinated to use only cold water and it aint true at all.
It isnt written in a clause that when you by a Scorpion you must only clean carpets with cold water.
I have stated on here that I have cleaned carpets with cold water, recently in a pub I do every 6 months but on the latest occassion there was no hot water in the taps. Didnt worry me - just cracked on a did it with cold and the result was good.
I do prefer to use customers hot water tap though.
Rarely do I take the in line heater with me, but when I do and use it I get really hot water from it So I have all options covered. Thats pretty good business practice to my mind.
Today Doug has done a article regarding using non detergents and he mentions hot cool and even cold water can be used as long as you substitute less heat with more agitation and time.
I have not fallen out with the Scorpion at all, if I had I would be selling it and I am not. I now have a really good stand by machine, and, all other things being equal, when the time comes to pack up I will have a good package to sell.
I know the truck mount produces lots of heat, and if I really wanted to I could probably by pass the heat exchanger and use cold water all the time. ;D
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Manufacturers will often change the words to suit the product, the Scorpion has 2 cords to power it but to add an heater would be 3 and realistically 1 too many so they sell Eco cold water cleaning to match the machine.
I think the arguement comes of the statements that cold water cleans as well as hot but whether you believe it or not I believe that hot water cleans quicker and puts a profit on the table.
And there's no politics with me!
Shaun
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Hi Joe just come in and seen your post .good to see you have made the transition from portie to truckmount.
It was me who was on the leather course with you and paul last year,didnt realise it was you until I seen your photo the other week.
Youve made some posts in just a year am sure I told you about these forums last may.
Ive not long swapped myself from the ninjas to the prowler ,you will probably hate it for the first day or two but just persavere and you will never look back.
As shaun said John Kelly top bloke will be able to supply the water tank and the demand pump and at afraction of the cost of what some other companies whant .
Happy truckmounting , Andy Locke ;)
Hi Andy, Good to here from you.
Nice one - getting the Prowler - if I had the money one would be in my van I am sure.
Ordered the freh water tank from JK, and the water pump. Greenie glide coming from Solutions tomorrow.
Took JK's adice and mounting the water tank on the floor between wheel arches. Spreads the weight. I will put a false floor on top. Only lifts the floor 13".
Had the machine up and running this morning (Monday), and did a job for a lady, hall and stairs, but she would'nt pay me :(
Always have this problem with the wife ;D
Hope to meet up with you again sometime.
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Shaun i can assure you that the eco slant and cold water cleaning had nothing to do with promoting the scorpion! Trust me I know!
Cheers Goron
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Nice one Joe ;) ;D
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Since starting this topic I have done 15 domestic jobs. 6 were repeats, 4 were recommends and 5 were new customers that got us from our various ads. Of those 5, four of them had previously used another carpet cleaner using a portable, the other couldn't remember what the previuos CC used.
All five went WOW when the job was done and all five said, 'It's never looked so clean!' or variations on the same theme. All five will stick with us or other Truck Mount companies in the future simply because they didn't know that carpet cleaning could be so good and now that they've found out cleaning really is that good, why would they go back to what they had?
This isn't a criticism of portable operators, far from it, it is just the reality of modern day cleaning where there are more and more Truck Mounts offering vastly superior results, faster drying times and better value for money. Slowly but surely the Truck Mount is pushing the portable operator out of the market and unless you have a well established business with a loyal customer base and many of you do, then slowly but surely your phone will ring less and less often and when it does it will just be people looking for the cheap and cheerful clean.
I have never competed with my competitors on price, I compete on quality and so if my competitors want to take my customers from me they have to do a better job than me and if they are a portable guy then they haven't got a hope in hell of doing that.
I make this point, not be be controversial or argumentative, but many people have stated that they can't afford a Truck Mount. These are the same people that readily admit that TM's do a better job, get better drying times and look far more professional, some even stating openly that TM's are the 'ultimate.'
The point is the relentless march of the Truck Mount is slowly but surely putting those same people out of business, or a least diminishing their business and if that is the case how can anyone not afford a Truck Mount?
Simon
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The stats you have can be distorted as the customer previously may have had a porti cleaner who was very cheap and decided to spend a bit more or may have been over sold the cleaning (sometimes CD do this) sometimes as you have previously stated the 'occassion' of having a TM the customer thinks they are getting a better clean even if the results were simular.
IMO if you have sold the clean well, it's gone well, they are happy in general, the advert in the YP's was to their liking and you answered the phone well and they weren't left hanging on etc etc etc there are too many ifs and buts to get a really accurate picture.
The thing is if they are that happy then they will recommend you in general but the TM itself is a freat marketing tool.
Shaun
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I went to a job last week, my employees were cleaning the bedrooms upstairs, and the customer answered the door and said the stairs had cleaned up well........ all they had done was walk up them with the equipment. Customers often say a job is good to be polite .
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Jason are your guys using those new extraction wand shoes now? :D
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They showed you how to make them on Blue Peter last week......double sided sticky tape. ;D
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Jason,
Nice website.
Simon
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I've had the opposite experience. A couple of customers said my job was much better than the previous clean 'who had a big truck outside'. They said they didn't vacuum and just went straight in with wand and they couldn't see any difference. My sister has a small hotel up in Scotland and she had the same experience with a TM'er.
So I don't think you can make such generalisms. It goes back to who is behind the machine and how much they care about doing a decent job.
Simon, are you on a secret mission from MI5 or something to put porty-owners out of business?
;)
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It's a one man crusade to make the world a cleaner place.... and sell a second hand truckmount. ;D
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I think Simon has just found out how to use a keyboard
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Turney,
Of course, you are quite right, there are good and bad in both TM and portable.
The point I was trying to make as uncontroversially as I could is that those five customers I've just gained were once someone else's customers, in this case portable guy's customers and that is just in the space of just a few weeks, so how many will they lose in the course of a year. And that is just people that have responded to our advertising, how many do we and others get from ex-portable customers telling all of their friends about this fantastic machine and how clean and dry her carpets were, which results in the phone calls that start, 'Are you the company with the big machine outside?'
If portable guy's are quite then I think they may have to look at themselves as much as at market conditions because if they have any switched on and motivated Truck Mount companies in their area then they are steadily taking your customers off them and they are doing that because they won't invest in the only thing that can compete with a Truck Mount and that is a Truck Mount.
Having said all of that, 'Hats Off' to all you portable chaps that have carved out a successful businesses for yourselves...respect!
Simon
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Simon
Got a day off today because my tm is in having work done!
I don't think you have taken the slight bit of notice of what is being said!
Obviously you do a good job else you wouldn't be getting these recommendations but what if you didn't do as good a job! The truckmount would then work against you, for example:
"don't have that bloke with the big machine in his van he's rubbish!".
Whether you have a portable or a tm it will always come down to quality of workmanship, end of story!
I don't have a portable i have a tm but i don't accredit the success of my business to the fact that i have a tm just to the fact that my custies like me and i do a good job!
Cheers Goron
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Goron,
Can't argue with that.
Like you, I bend over backwards to produce the very best results for my customers and that is made a lot easier because of my Truck Mount. As you quite rightly point out it's the workmanship that counts, but isn't it also the quality of the tools he's using?
Simon
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i agree with Goron,
most customers are not remotely interested in the machine you have, just whether you do a good job at a decent price and are a nice person, and thats within any ones grasp!
You seriously dont need a t/m to run a good carpet cleaning business unless you do alot of commercial work, a porty will do the job, unless you are a perfectionist who wants to get every tiny grain of dirt out ::)
We ran our business for 12 years using porties and kept our customers happy over that time, those same customers either get the t/m or a porty depending on the workload, and i've never had anyone notice the difference.
If you want to do the job in half the time however then thats where the value is ,but if you haven't got the workload to go along with that then whats the point?
If your prices are right then you are prob only doing 2 to 3 jobs a day, easily possible with a porty,
We run two t/m's now but really only because we do work for the local council, that needs doing in a short space of time and covering a huge area !
Would i give up my t/m now, not likely, but its a luxury you get used to ;D
steve
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Well done that man for an honest comment..............I KNOW I would never lose and never have lost a customer to a T/M machine, partly because I'm good and partly because nobody cares.
No point in saying..............Ah, but once they experience a T /M you'll never see them again..............99% will never see a T/M, so it really doesn't matter.
Even if they got one calling, it's STILL DOWN TO THE PERSON / THE CHEMICALS / THE ABILITY TO DO A GOOD JOB.
Best analogy that comes to mind, is a story about the golfing legend Sam Snead, who played a round of golf, using just one club and won. He even won another golf bet using gardening tools.
Did the one club thing myself as a youngster and beat the club champ.
Just to illustrate the point. It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it ;D ;D
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Ive got a big TM and Im fed up of custys that say "your machine does a great job" I keep having to stop myself saying "the operator doesnt do a bad one either!" Truth is although WE know its down to the operator. Custys ARE greatly impressed by Professional looking equipment, and even if the job is only as good as the last CC, if your equipment is more impressive by a mile, chances are they will be even more enthused to tell their friends about you, and use you again.
Dave
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Are you seriously suggesting that machines don't look " professional " because they can be taken to the client's door. Rather than left in the van.
I've never felt the need to excuse my machine, other than to apologise for the noise, although in most cases it would be outside.
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Not heard any TM operators claim that porty users are or look 'unprofessional' ............ bear in mind that many of them carry porty machines as back up ::)
If i wanted to do more than 1 or 2 jobs a day, work past lunchtime, take on jobs where outside noise was not an issue, where leaving the customer's door ajar and leaving van open .......... then i would buy one tomorrow :P
Seriously considering Prowler as a 'middle ground' option though ;D
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Hi carpet guy !
I run three portables, one of them is a Scorpion, i have been in the carpet cleaning business for just over fifteen years, and I get a very good price for the work we do, I employe two people and run two vans, there are three carpet cleaning companies in my area with petrol or diesel truck mounts, yet they dont get anyway near the prices i get, Its certainly not about the power of the machines but rather the service that you give the right type of customer! any fool can go about cleaning three piece suites for £25 and full house carpets for £50, its not that there customers are loyal to them, its just that they are the cheapest and that type of customer will only stay with them as long as no one else goes lower in price
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My Sprinter is in being sign written at the moment, although we have only used the TM for a couple of weeks I will be glad to get it back. As as other posts, we ran our business for 24 years using the best portables we could get, I always had positive comments from customers regarding quality of work.
The truckmount does take the quality of my work to the next level, without doubt, along with excellent drying times, although top end portables do a great job, they simply do not match up to the TM in my opinion.
Regards
S
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I use a portable and a truckmount and a bonnet system, for a nice easy day i prefer the portable, however with the truckmount i can half the price of other cleaners and still take a grand in a day. There is no doubt that having the truckmount has doubled my business in the last few years enableing me to carry out work i couldn't possibly have taken on before. the end result is far more income.
However for a portable guy to say they're happy with the porty is rubbish or they wouldn't be purchasing 'dry-fusion', 'texatherm', or the 'host' systems,each diversification opens up new opportunities and a whole new range of income. Portable machines are cabable of cleaning 200 to 500 yrds of carpet in a day yet truckmounts are capable of cleaning 200 to 4000 yrds of carpeting in a day , so i think that all that simon is trying to say is that a TM will give you an opportunity to earn more money it doesn't take a genius to work out that he's right!
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I think what Simon needs to do is tell how he gets 500 yards of carpet to clean a day
Im sure everyone would have a truckmount but to justify it you need the volume of work and that is the answer why not a truckmount
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Why would you need 500 yards a day to justify owning a tm.?
I bought my TM in 1997 from Prochem. At the time it cost me @£20,000 with all the bits. There has been a small amount of maintenance each year - much less than I was spending replacing pumps and vac motors on portables. The petrol costs are more than paid for by efficiency savings. So far after 11 years I have effectively paid less than £2000 per year to own a truck mount. i expect it to last a few more years too.
Maybe you meant 500 yards per year?
The other question though is what comes first - The TM or the work. In my case I already had the work and the TM made it more efficient. If you are new to the business or very quiet it is easy to see that the size of investment required would be offputting. However most serious carpet cleaners reach a point after a 10 years where they have a quality customer database providing a volume of repeat business. It is at this point where there is the biggest advantage to be gained by upgrading to a TM. It would help most businesses to kick on to the next level of income with earnings in excess of £100k and beyond. Some don;t want to work that hard, not financially motivated or don't want to be VAT registered etc. But for those that are ambitious I think it is a no brainer.
Nigel
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Chris you will still get a door ajar and a van door open and the noise if you get a prowler, after all it's a TM!
Gregg Bloss president of Steamway said once that a TM will clean 1 pass for every 2 of a porti, I'd agree.
Shaun
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Since simon started this post my jobs where very similar to his in the same week.
I did 9 repeats , 4 recommends and 5 by way of advertising, yell pages local magazines etc, no leaflets never liked them .
However I only got my prowler at the end of January and only one of the repeats is from when I bought that,the rest are all regular customers from my portie days.
The point I am trying to make is that although I am thrilled with my new machine ,most the advantages are for our benefit not the customers ie speed of set up and cleaning times.
My regular customers use me because of the quality of job not the quality of equipment and I think mrs Jones just wants a nice clean carpet I just think this is easier to achieve by ourselves the higher quality of equipment we buy.
A concientious carpet cleaner will always strive to do a good job with whatever is at there disposal whether this be truckmount ,portie or rotary.
Regards Andy Locke.
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Shaun,
To a degree ....... but van can be locked and Prowler brought behind gates or into rear garden etc ......slightly more secure, in my mind ::)
Got ideal job for it in few weeks ......... open door access to communal HSL's but could run Prowler from underground car park but TM would not fit ;)
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Chris did you ever see Dave Ingrams Depatch? he had a TM in there with allsorts of other things, needed a shoe horn but it all fit, you could just drive into the carpark and set up is done, the Prowler weighs about 185lbs and at your age it may take some lifting back onto the van :o
I once demounted my Bane even with the ramp it was fun putting it back on the van or perhaps with the money you lot are getting down south you could just leave it behind after the job!
Shaun
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Shaun the prowler weighs nearly twice that 375lb approx.
How many ready breck have you been eating :o :o
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Chris
Before you buy the Prowler try taking in out of the van by yourself and then putting it back it. From looking at it on the CCDO I dont think this is a daily or even unfrequent option for one man.
It also is very noisy compared to a Boxer and you still need to leave the house door open which is a blessing at the minute with the weather. So be careful with your criteria on which TM to buy.
Mark
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Your right I think it's the Woodbridge machines that are very light, but they have their problems with reliability and customer service is said to be a bit iffy.
Shaun
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HAHAHAHA OMG :-X
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Funnily enough just got a flyertoday off woodbridge vat free truckmounts starting at £6250.00 and they are quite light the lightest 15 hp weighing in at 159 kg.
Andy Locke.
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Would you though Andy?
Truckmounts go wrong, you need the back up HM have an excellent customer service that's why they can outsell machines that are nearly half the price.
Shaun
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Mark, the prowler at the CCDO was the new 15hp. I ran it out the van so people could get a good look at the component parts. It is obviously going to be noisy in an open situation as compared to when it is in the vehicle where a lot of the noise is absorbed by the surrounding material.
Can you send me your email address, can't find it and I need to send that template over.
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I agree, purchasing a Hydramaster over any other machine was the service- back up factor, I wouldn't touch a Woodbridge with a barge pole, we had a twelve day wait for a part for our Speedster, in the end Matt from cleansmart had the part made up....actions speak louder than words.
On another note..come on the Whites, going to Wembley ;D
S
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Spencer you're not a Leeds fan are you?
Shaun
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John
mk.roberts@ntlworld.com
thanks
Mark
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Yep, me and the kids are off to the finals ;D
Would prefer Southend out of the two.
S
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I am too, cant believe it after all the bad years we are actually in danger of winning something (hopefully).
Cant go to Wembley.
Got a Christening same day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Nowhere near Wembley)
Hey ho!
Murky
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jOHN HOW MUCH DOES THE 13HP WEIGH
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Marching on together....... 8)
S
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Been to a customer's house today who has her carpets cleaned every year by a "guy with a big machine in his van".
He was not able to do the job when she wanted it done so she came to me.
I have a CFR Pro400, no heater, normal CFR wand, sebo vacuum cleaner, using M-Power and a pile brush to agitate.
Did the normal job, no hot water and no turbo dryiers (its lovely and sunny here).
She came home and said that it was the best the 19 year old carpets had looked in years.
They were nearly dry when I left she said she will not go anywhere else now... and I got a tenner tip.
£160 for 3 hours work.
Tell me again why I need a truckmount!!!???!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D
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£160 for one hours work. Best, Dave.
If it wasnt me, someone else would have said it.
Andy, you obvioulsy have the talent whuch isnt in question. Just if you had a machine that was quicker if on the same par of quality, then simply you would be able to do more jobs or more importantly have more time off. Either way is a good thing.
£160 for the 3 hours has been discussed so many times, isnt 80 or 160 much better. I appreciate that it probably couldnt be done in an hour but you get my point.
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You can put a monkey in a suit.......but he is still a monkey
Owning any piece of equipment won't produce good results if the operator has poor training and/or attitude, whether he is using a TM, portable,DF, vax even.
S
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Hi All,
I did a job last saturday for a builder who had made a mess on a beige hsl carpet while replacing an old lathe and plaster ceiling, I didn't realise until I got there that I was the 4th cleaner to attempt the job, He called me because an industrial cleaning company gave him my number! and he was in a panic because the customer was withholding payment until it was cleaned or she wanted a replacement!! It took us an hour to vac all the old black plaster out and managed to fill the bag which had supposed to have been cleaned 3 times with portables before we even got there. It came up like new again(even the water mark left by cleaner number 3 who had a leak from his machine) and we had a tenner tip from the builder and a tenner from the housholder! I look at buying a truckmount as just a natural progression, If you are good at your job with a portable you will soon not be able to cope with the volume of work and look at more efficient ways of working and the way to go is truckmounted, That way you can either earn double the money or work half the time for the same money as a portable.
All the best
John
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Hi again
Interesting points and I understand that it may be quicker with a truck mount and that would lead to higher income or more time off.
In this instance it took an hour to vac and half an hour to set up the customer's email account on hotmail (don't quite know how that happened but hey, can't see a damsel in distress).
As a point of note, she said that the guy normally does it for £130 and that he is there nearly all day so can't see how it would be quicker with a TM as he didn't normally vac either.
I think it is very much horses for courses and if I get to the point where I physically can't handle any more work then I'll go and buy myself...
another porty and hire some help... have you seen how much it costs to run a TM!!!
;D ;D ;D
Cheers
Andy
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Mark, 13hp is 198 kilos.
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Good post Andy, the silence is deafening. One thing that keeps puzzling me, is why anyone and I know you're not alone would use a pile brush to aggitate prespray.
I always got excellent results from the CFR system, using One Step, aggitated with the Klanz machine
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Hi carpet guy
My post was not intended as a conversation stopper, I have the greatest of respect for people like Dave and have learned a great deal from them, I just don't get the attraction of a massive grunt of a machine which can cost thousands... you have to clean an awful lot of extra carpets to make up the cost of the machine. They do cost a lot to run too, but like I say, horses for courses.
I don't usually agitate with a pile brush to answer your question, I normally use a sebo duo but with M-Power, it is not necessary to aggitate, I simply brush the solution in and allow to dwell... less work and I have to say, I am quite impressed with it (used to use, and sometimes still do use one-step).
Cheers
Andy
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It sounds like some truck mount owners are a little behind on the latest portables.
I own a powrflite pfx1350 which has up to 500psi on tap, it has 2 very powerful vac motors that are more than adequate to remove most of the water being put down and it heats the water very well, its also well insulated and quiet in operation ~ in my opinion if you feel you need more umph than that, maybe you don't like to make more than 1 pass over with the wand. ;)
Yes there is the time factor of loading and unloading, but that might account for an extra 20 minutes on each job.
Used with something like a wonderwand I don't think side by side a truck mount would have any better result, not in cleaning, or drying times required.
As for impressing the cusomer, I don't think the average Joe would know what a truck mount was, if anything, to Joe public I would say a big nosiy truck throwing DSL fumes out would to the average person look more antiquated than a slick modern porty. :o
Its how you present your business, yourself and your marketing strategies that count.
How about the fumes issue from truckmounts, did anyone else read the poison gases issue in the recent edition of the NCCA magazine.
Maybe it's the age old story, you know what women say about the guy with the big red sports car whose eager to tell everyone how much money he earns ~ I think you know what I'm saying!! ;D I'll stick with my mini.
Paul
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I cant be bothered to read all the posts on this thread but Dave Liahona has made the point. You make more money per man hour with a TM. Every Tm user started with a portable so they know what their talking about. Most portable owners have never used a Tm for longer than 30mins (usually at a demo).
We're not talking about the level of clean as thats down to the operator but we're talking money in the pocket at the end of the day. Like most things seeing is believing so call your local professional TM operator and spend the day with him. Thats what i did and I thought i was making money before with a portable.
Mark
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I think that some good points have been made in this topic, but i agree with what spencer davis says. Having a TM dose not mean i will do a better job than that me using a portable will mean i will do a s**t job.
I changed over to TM 3 years ago as my workload increased and it was easier for me to work with a tm. Yes i do perfer using the TM as it it definatly quicker and easier for me to use. I still habe 3 portable, 2 being 400psi ninjas and 1 being 200psi. I still use the ninja 2-4 times a week for flats and retirement complexes and i still do the same job as i would have with the Tm, it just may take a lil bit longer.
Funny thing with the customers is that some dont give a toss what i use, but this week for example, a lady phoned me up yesterday and said that i cleaned her carpet a year ago (with the tm) and asked if i could use my smaller machine (the portalbe). i asked why and she said becuase she wanted to have the doors and window shut ??? and becuase she liked to see the dirty water.
Whereas today i done a really old customer (checked database and it was 6 years since i was last there) and she thought the TM was the mutts nutts. she was saying how good it was i brought my own water and how quick it was. I think as long as the customer is happy and ive known that i have done a good job, be it with the portable or Tm, thats all that matters to me (and the money of course ;D )
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Paul,
I sat here shaking my head when reading your post. I think you will find that many TM users are up to date with most CC extraction machines & other systems. Your Powerflite may have a 500psi water pump anr 2 (as you put it) very powerful vac motors but this is nothing compared to even a entry level TM. When looking at water pressure of a extraction machine you should also look at the GPM of it. A TM set at 200psi will be stronger than any portable set at 500psi. Your 2 vac motors can only draw x amount of powwer from a 13amp fuse, a TM has JUST 1 vac BLOWER that would buckle the casing of your portable. IEven when using a TM i often may use more than 1 cleaning pass. If you worked side by side with a TM going the same speed as the TM i guareentee that the carpet cleaned by the TM will be CLEANER, DRIER & would look better. Portables can do a good job but it will be slower than a TM. I have used both systems in the past 2 weeks. I got top results with the Porty but it was harder than using the TM. One customer voiced concern as to why i was cleaning her carpet with a little machine instead of the big one in the van. I explained the TM was in use elsewhere but not to worry as i would still do a great job. The job took near an hour longer and although i did dry passes i couldnt get it as dry as i usually do with the TM. I have NEVER had a customer voice concerns of the TM exhaust gases. REMEMBER.....portys use electricity. HOW IS ELECTRICITY MADE???? Fossil fules..... The cost of running a TM is minimal. Anyone that cannot afford to run a TM is obviously one of the cheap cowboys cleaning carpets for a laugh. The cost really is minimal when you look at the price you SHOULD be charging customers.
Richie.
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"I cant be bothered to read all the posts on this thread but Dave Liahona has made the point. You make more money per man hour with a TM. Every Tm user started with a portable so they know what their talking about. Most portable owners have never used a Tm for longer than 30mins (usually at a demo).
We're not talking about the level of clean as thats down to the operator but we're talking money in the pocket at the end of the day. Like most things seeing is believing so call your local professional TM operator and spend the day with him. Thats what i did and I thought i was making money before with a portable."
Dave has indeed made some good points (as have other on here if you could be bothered to read the posts) and it is indisputable that you can turn over more in a day using a truckmount than with a portable. The question I have really is down to how much of the 'extra' work you can fit in you need to do before you have made up the extra money it has cost to buy the machine in the first place.
Then there are the running costs of a truckmount, let alone the diesel in the van to pull it around, you have to admit that these costs are a lot higher than if you were running a porty.
If your business can stand the extra initial costs of going TM and you are prepared for the additional running costs then indeed, why not, but then again... why? I can buy a van, a decent portable, hoses, wands and all the trimmings for the price of a truckmount without the hoses etc and a van to drag it around in.
Personally speaking, my business does not lend itself to a TM as I need to be able to use the van for other things, however, if and when there is a full time need for the carpet cleaning, it would have to be a pretty darn good deal to get me to go TM.
Despite what you may think, I am not anti-TM, if I had the need and spare cash I would consider it, but it does get a bit boring listening to the same old story about how 'I went TM and never looked back'. If you look at it objectively, no-one who has spent a few grand on a machine is likely to admit they made a mistake are they?
Anyway, as I have said time and again, its whatever suits the individual. Personally, I am making a decent chunk of my business from a £2k setup (second hand at that and I charge more than some of the TMs around here) and a dose of good customer service.
I honestly don't wish to offend anyone by the comments I have made and apologise unreservedly if that has happened, just pay me the same courtesy if its not too much trouble.
Andy
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Paul,
I have owned the best portables on the market, they simply can't be compared to our Hydramaster, we still own two 500 psi portables for difficult to access jobs, good machines, but don't believe the Hype.
S
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The cost of a TM like any other piece of equipment is a business cost, and is tax deductable. I had my first entry level TM for 5 years and it cost me about £300 in spares in that time. I ran top end portables for 23 years before that, and on average I had to replace the pump evry 6 - 9 months and each vac motor every 12 months. So that was about £300 plus every year. So at 5 years I would have spent £1500 plus on parts for my portables, plus the downtime etc. I sold my last 2 year old portable for £800. I sold my TM for over £2,000, plus I saved around £4,400 in Tax. You see the point I am getting at. The initial cost may seem a lot, but it doesnt cost you anywhere near that in the end, and the latest TMs have the LPG option.
Dave.
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Ritchie
Go and play with the buses......................you are insulting many highly regarded and long proven businessmen by your comments.
There are t/m users cleaning for as little as £20 a room
There are portable users charging as much as £100 a room
There are cowboys at every pricing level
There are acknowledged industry experts who use portables
The definition of a cowboy is according to individual perception, mine happens to be associated with overcharging and not providing value.
If it comes down to productivety, it's been well documented that other methods give higher productivety than HWE
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I think you must have got on the WRONG BUS mate, If you had read the post you will have realised that i was NOT insulting or intending to insult any highly regarded, long proven businessman. I was merely trying to get across the FACT the running a TM is not a thing that should cause concern if you are charging a FAIR price for your services. I could have easily attempted to insult but that was not my intention i thought my post was clear....obviously not to all.
Richie.
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I cant remember where I got this from but obviously it isnt mine. But for the numpties who think a portable is even close to a truckmount in performance here is the "data" on one and the other. This isnt aimed at the results just the technical side of the debate.
Portable Power V Truckmount Power.
We often get asked whatthe difference is between a Truckmount and a portable really are and why so many Truckmount users say that they would never return to regularly using a portable unit. The answer is quite simple POWER. In the following example I shall compare what is theoretically possible here in the UK from a standard ring main and the smallest entry level Truckmount that is supplied by Hyrdramaster Ltd The Spitfire 3.2
So that we can directrly compare one with the other we shall need to work in the same power units for which we will use kilowatts (kw)
Portable Unit
Here in the UK portable electric units are plugged directly into a mains electricity outlet, each plug will have a maximum rating of 13 amps. Each socket will probably form part of a 'ring main' which in turn will be connected to the consumer unit (fuse board) where it will be protected by a 30 Amp fuse or a 32 Amp circuit breaker.
In the interest of fairness I shall work to the theoretical maximum, using Ohm's law and neglecting efficiency and other minor losses for simplicity.
Standard UK power supply is 240 v or there abouts.
Maximum standard plug top rating is 13 Amps.
From Ohm's law Power = Voltage x Amperage.
= 240 x 13
= 3120 Watts (3.12kw)
Total Power so far used from the ring main equals 2 x 13 = 26 Amps, which leaves us an available 6 Amps. The last 6 Amps gives us in theory another 1440 W (1.44kw) 240 x 6.
This gives us a TOTAL THEORETICAL amount of electrical power available to run vac. systems, heating systems and pumping systems of
2 x 3.12 Kw + 1.44 Kw = 7.68 Kw.
Truckmount Hydramaster Spitfire 3.2
To work out the equivalent amount of electrical power that Truckmounts generate to heat it's water we need to use Newtons law of heating and cooling as follows. A Spitfire 3.2 will heat water from 20 Degrees C to 90 Degrees C at a rate of 5.6 litres per minute (flow through a standard 04 jet at 300 p.s.i.)
Newton's law of heating and cooling concludes the following:
Energy (J) = heat capacity of item *mass of item* temperature change.
Heat Capacity of water = 4200J per Kg
Mass = 5.6 litres = 5.6 Kg
Temperature change = temperature rise = 70 degrees C
Energy (J) = 4200 * 5.6 * 70 = 1646400 J per minute
Using a simply conversion of 360000 J per minute = 1Kw Hour
We end up with a final figue of 27.44 Kw (this is just water heating power!!)
To get the total equivalent electrical power figure for the Spitfire 3.2 we also need to take into account the engines power. This unit uses a 16 horse power petrol engine which equates to 11.9 Kw.
So the total equivalent power that a Spitfire 3.2 generates is a whopping
27.44 Kw+ 11.9 Kw = 39.32Kw
Conclusion
We have shown a clear and direct comparison between the theoretical maximum amount of power available to a portable on a standard electrical supply in the UK and the smallest Truckmount that Hydramaster produce. I underline "theoretical maximum" since in the real world this would be bordering on being dangerous and would most probably be unworkable and may require more than two plugs to operate safely.
A more realistic figure for the amount of safe usable power available to a portable unit would closer to 6.2 Kw running from two plugs, which means that even the smallest Truckmount available from Hydramaster is over six times more powerful than the most powerful twin plug portable unit.
Also consider the fact that from the available 6.2 Kw to the portable unit we need to split this power three ways in an attempt to produce as much vacuum as possible, as much heat as possible and as much water pressure as possible. On the other hand the Spifire 3.2 has 11.9Kw availible just to power the vacuum system and water pressure system. Its also worth noting that a portable system is always virtually operating at its maximum unlike a Spifire 3.2 which only operates at about 80% of its capacity. I.E. the engine and blower are rated at 3600 rpm but only run at 3000 rpm, thus creating long term reliability...... If you start looking at the bigger nachines within the Hydramaster range then YES they are 20 times more powerful as a portable.
Best, Dave.
P.S. It has been mentioned about a truckmounts exhaust. What do you think, portables dont exhaust??
They do of course and worse than any truckmount they exhaust inside the clients house, reducing air quality to, well, no quality at all.
Not only that but being that they plug into an electrical source, where do you think electricity comes from.
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Nice post Dave.
No-one in their right mind would dispute that a TM is more powerful than a porty, but power in the hand of a fool is a dangerous thing (not refering to anyone on this forum persay, just a turn of phrase - boy do you need to be careful not to offend these days!).
There are differing views on this otherwise it would not be an interesting topic.
If we are looking for facts regarding the two methods then maybe these are some of them;
TM - relatively expensive to buy
Porty - relatively cheap to buy but still not as cheap as some other methods
TM - more expensive than a porty to run if you include the cost of transportation
Porty - no more or less expensive than a TM to maintain but easier to transport
TM - limits the use of the vehicle as permanently fixed
Porty - can be removed from van so it can be used for other things
TM - Fast cleaning
Porty - slower than a TM by about 25% (if other posts are to be believed)
TM - fast drying times - if good wand technique
Porty - also fast drying times if good wand technique
TM - more jobs per day = more turnover if you charge the same as you would by other mothods
Porty - fewer jobs per day = lower turnover
(note - 'turnover' and not 'profit' or 'income'!)
TM - sometimes cannot be used due to lack of access
Porty - can go almost anywhere
TM - no electricity or water used from custy
Porty - reliant on water from custy and electricity too
TM - loud
Porty - quiet
TM - Can be used for other things - pressure washing for example
Porty - can only be used for designed purpose
There are doubtless more pros and cons for each of them - I bet if you added them up it would be about 50 - 50
Feel free to add your own - please try to remain objective so that we have intelligent discussion - I hope I have with the above.
Andy
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Be careful what you say Dave....You may be insulting many highly regarded and long proven businessmen ::)
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Hi Guys
Although some of the Spitfire figures are debatable the essence of TM's having more Power is indisputable.
Then there are other factors like the chemistry of the detergents etc, dwell time, agitation, temperature applied at, use of right product for dirt/fibre, enzymes, colloids, STPP(MS) it gets complicated !
I have always tried to focus on the science rather than the hyperbole, big word for BS, and it is obvious that a TM, say Boxxer next to a high end portable, cleaning the same carpet will outperform BUT all the other factors can be used to compensate this power difference, and the end result can be just as good using both methods, although the porty will take longer.
Cheers
Doug
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Cant be bothered to go into a long diatribe about the pro's and cons of TM's.
But I would never willingly go back to a porty.
Mine is an entry level HM machine, I cant wait till I upgrade to a bigger one. Its just easier, quicker and most of all drier.
Murky
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:-*
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To me drying times are totaly over rated when i tell a customer there carpet will be dry in 3-4 hours they are over the moon and to this day ive never had a complaint about drying times.
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Keep it simple Darren...................way to go and just collect the money.
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why do people have to exaggerate to emphasize a point ::) ::). so a truckmount cost £20-£30k and a portable cost £2-£4k
£20-£30k must include a van
so they will push this portable around in a wheelbarrow will they? or do they also have to buy a van
you can buy a truckmount for £6,000 so the initial investment over a portable is only £2,000. there is an additional cost of fuel but at £2.50 an hour, not a big expense
also.......
Obviously, I hope, my posts have usually be intended as a cautionery note with regard to new or relatively new people.
if you want to give a 'cautionary note' to new starters don't also in the same post start quoting that a portable will earn '£30k in 6 months' a bit misleading don't you think.
mike
Ps; after reading Joes post below I've deleted what could have be mis-interpreted as an insult on Carpet Guy, it would be a shame to allow this thread to go down hill.
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For a thread to have 2 weeks without any serious major differences is now turning into a bit of a slanger - shame really - its been so good.
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Joe how are you getting on with your T/M?
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Joe,
Dont look at it as a SLANGER.....more a MATTER OF DIFFERENCES ;D.
I have nothing against CCs that use portables. I know many that do a superb job with them and i have not said otherwise. People use what ever they use. End of story. It is a shame that that some tend to look at the negative side of a TM when they have never used one in the real world except times like the SDO venues. I feel that this is one of the reasons that Truckmounters was started, to rid of the guys that want to knock a TM when they have never owned or used one. 99.9% of TMers have used a portable unit. This i feel entitles them to further comment.
Richie..
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Hi Mike
Well I was told it will take a bit of time to get used to it..... and it is.
Also got to get used to a green glide as well. That is proving a bit more challenging then getting used to the TM
Never had a problem wanding - no bad backs etc, but the wand with TM and without the glide .... I could pull but not push - too much suction.
Put a glide on (hybrid - slots and holes) and, yes it glides over the carpets but its taken something away (dont know what) that is taking some time to get used to.
The machine setup initially was using a garden hose supply - which is fine if the customer has a hose point. Did a job Monday with this setup - no problem.
Then Monday afternoon I finished fitting the 250 litre flat water tank and plumbed and wired in the 12v on demand water pump.
Yesterday I started a job with it all running but the water pump circuit blew a fuse, and no hose supply so I got the Scorpion out and did the job with that.
Todays job was 2 doors away but he must have forgot and has gone out so it will be back in action tomorrow.
Thanks for asking.
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Joe
Bound to have a few teething troubles at first, as you say in a few weeks you will be flying.
I know what's missing now with the glide........hard work! ;D
Do you feel it's too easy to be true?
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joe, if you have a second wand, try a slotted glide on that, i have both and use whichever one i feel is right for each job, (actually i have 4 wands but you can't take them all out can you!)
colin
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why do people have to exaggerate to emphasize a point ::) ::). so a truckmount cost £20-£30k and a portable cost £2-£4k
£20-£30k must include a van
so they will push this portable around in a wheelbarrow will they? or do they also have to buy a van
you can buy a truckmount for £6,000 so the initial investment over a portable is only £2,000. there is an additional cost of fuel but at £2.50 an hour, not a big expense
also.......
Obviously, I hope, my posts have usually be intended as a cautionery note with regard to new or relatively new people.
if you want to give a 'cautionary note' to new starters don't also in the same post start quoting that a portable will earn '£30k in 6 months' a bit misleading don't you think.
mike
Ps; after reading Joes post below I've deleted what could have be mis-interpreted as an insult on Carpet Guy, it would be a shame to allow this thread to go down hill.
Hi Mike
I am not sure who your post is aimed at but if it is at any of MY comments then please re-read my posts as I think you will find that I have not mentioned £20k setup for a TM nor have I said portable setup for £2k.
I actually said that MY second hand setup cost me £2k (the same setup is in fact for sale for £2k brand new now by the way including a better wand than I have plus a heater) and I never suggested that you would not need a van for a porty business but that you could buy a van and a porty setup for the price of a TM.
As for £30k in 6 months from a porty... why is this not possible?
If you want to talk exagerations then look further back for a reference to £160 for an hours work... this may happen from time to time but for the average carpet cleaner this is a very rare event regardless of the kit you use.
(Respect to Dave as he was just making a point.)
I was hoping that my previous post regarding the pros and cons would spark some intelligent discussion, but maybe I was being slightly optimistic!
Regards
Andy
PS - the difference between an entry level TM at £6k and an entry level porty at £2k is actually £4k - but hey 'its only mathematics but I like it'
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Andy my post was aimed at Carpet Guy, if you read his post 2 above mine you will see the figures I've mentioned. then my post might make more sense.
I was trying to compare like for like with the entry level T/M of course you can buy a portable for £2k ( you can buy them for £800) the £4k I've quoted was for some thing that is often compared to a T/m a Scorpion
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OK Mike
Thanks for the clarification
Andy
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Sorry Andy just checked and carpet guy has realised what an idiot he looked with his post and deleted it ( it was the one he has just got a kisising smiley in),
good job really because it really showed his lack of knowledge of our industry. what a fool ::) ::)
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Joe,
I think what you might be missing is the agitation you got used to with an unglided wand. The Slotted glide does give you a measure of agitation, but if I get a job where the soil is deep seated with lots of deep spots I get the unglded wand out.
Dave.
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Colin (Thomas) - your right you cant take 4 wands with you - you only have 2 hands ;D
Dave_Lee - I think your right about the agitation - I didnt want to come to a conclusion yet. There is not much agitation with a glide - after all it "glides".
Dave, when you get the unglided wand out - what is your technique? As I said before, I can pull but not easy to push, are you lifting? or what?
Got my neighbours house done at teatime. Done a few times with the CFR500 I had and once with the Scorpion. Got through it a bit quicker with the TM - I am getting better with it.
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Joe just turn your psi up,that will agitate for you,and now you have more suction,and glide,the carpet wont get too wet.try it.. ;)
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Thanks for comments
Carpetwork - when you say turn pressure up - I am generaly about 250-300, so turn it up to what to get the agitation?
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Joe, anywhere between 4 or 500 psi will be enough to agitate, especially if you have more than one jet. I have one jet and still clean at or thereabouts 500 psi. Many years ago Shaw suggested to clean around 430 psi, but dont quote me on that as it was so many years ago when I researched that info. 250 or 300 is just not enough.
Added to the problem is the jets being external and farther away from the carpet than they "could" be reduces the pressure. So 250 with two external jets wont actually strike the carpet at 250.
Best, Dave.
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Hi Joe,
I run my t/m's at 350 to 450 for carpets and about 250 for upholstery.
All the best
John
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Joe 300 psi should normally be sufficient for rinsing the carpet, especially if it has been prepared before hand. Let the cleaning agent do the work for you with plenty of dwell time and agitation. In my own personal experience having a truck mount will not necessarily make the job go quicker on small domestic jobs, it is the large jobs where you will find the truckmount comes into it's own. You can go up to 400 to 450 psi as you have the equipment to do it, but to be honest it is all down to working differently. The glides are good are'nt they :)
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At 500 psi, doesn't the water pass through the pile into the backing and beyond. I have never tried to clean at that kind of pressure. I am normally between 200 -300 on the gauge. And if agitation is required, I would get a machine out.
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Nevil. I havent had a problem in the 15 years of cleaning at that pressure. Most I know clean at the same pressure too.
The added umph over 200 generally negates having to use a mechanical form of agitation.
Best, Dave.
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I have been using a Dri master upholstery tool instead of our CFR one recently, the jet less system seems to work really well, with fast drying times.
One carpets, usually 250 - 300 psi
Regards
S
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Mmm, interesting set of responses and surely the most restrained and yet thorough Truck Mount / Portable debate this industry has ever seen.
The reason I use a Truck Mount is very simple and very basic. As a professional carpet cleaner I cannot offer my customers anything less than what I know to be the best. The best machines, the best chemicals, the best tools and yes, the best training (thank you Ron Tilley)
That doesn't mean that I think that I am the best, far from it, it simply means that I strive to do the very best job money, tools, machines, knowledge and experience will allow me to do and boy-oh-boy has it paid off.
Simon
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Joe,
To be honest I dont take the glide off, I use an unglided wand and a 1.5 inch tubed one at that, they are easy to use without a glide. However this doesnt happen very often and I range my pressure from 250 - 400 psi depending on carpet type and profile.
Dave.
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Myself & most carpet cleaners i know run their TM at 300-350psi. This i feel is more than enough on domestic and most commercial work. On rare occassions i may crank it up to 400-450psi at a push on real bad night club heavy bar tar or resturant heavy grease build up. Anything less than heavily soiled carpets clean perfect at no more than 300-350psi.
Many Many years ago i was called out to clean the carpets at one of the Ritzy Night Clubs. The carpet to one bar area was the dirtiest i have seen in the 15 years ive been carpet cleaning. We HEAVILY pre-treated the area with Prochem Enzyme Pre-Spray. Then extracted at 450psi with a Prochem Performer 800A (top of the range PC TM at the time). I was gobsmacked. It didnt touch it. We soaked it again with the Enzyme and this time cranked the pressure upto 600psi, little result. I had a chat with the General Manager telling him that the carpet needed replacement. He virtually begged me to do whatever because he had been informed by enviromental health that the club could not open with the carpets in such bad state. I could only think of one thing to do. I informed the GM that the only way i could see that area (about 100-150sqm) would get cleaned in time along with the rest of the club was to clean that area via pressure cleaning it. He said JUST DO WHATEVER. I informed him that the carpet was likely to shrink & that it would make a hell of a mess up the walls/bar & fittings. He called 3 staff in along with 4 cleaners. As i was pressure cleaning (800psi) with a pressure washing lance, the carpet the lad with me was extracting the water and sludge. Got the whole club cleaned and ready for opening. The manager was over the moon. NO SHRINKAGE. The carpet had been preseved by all the build of of crap so looked like new. Me & the lad with me were covered in black crap. The cleaners had a nightmare washing walls and everything else down. The manager handed us 4 crates of lager as a thank you. Another GOOD reason to have a TRUCKMOUNT.
Richie.
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joe, i usually clean at around 300, if minging then 350, over this pressure and (a) you don't get a better clean and (b) you use a lot more water over a day,
colin
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Great story Richie.
Joe,i clean at about 450-500,but if i'm doing a real bad rental,i turn it up to around 1000psi mark.never had a problem.
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Well, there is a variety of answers in that lot.
Taken it all onboard, thank you.
Best thing to do is try the suggestions for myself on the job.
I am sure all the other would be TM out there are reading this good info too.
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Did a carpet job today with my Rhino twin vac portable. To be fair the machine did a reasonable job but god what a load of hassle filling and emptying and the extra time setting up and lifting it in and out of the van.
The truck Mount would have done the job in under half the time and without all of that hassle. Portable guy's.... you're welcome to it! I'd rather make money than drag a bucket on wheels around the place.
Simon
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well well simon a reasonable job . Not good enough!!! ;)
why cant you get good results with a porty?
even as you say it takes you longer , surly good results are to be expected
geoff
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Geoff,
Not sure that you mean.
Simon
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£100k ::) ::)
i know a lot of T/M owners its a very small number that earn anything near that amount.
Peter obviously you live in a different world to me because In my world what you've said bares no relation to reality
'people who work within this industry have very little money and mostly do it alongside a paying job'
'people can make a full time living from Carpet and Upholstery cleaning, maybe not a good living but a living never the less.'
where do you get this load of crap from? , Peter Blackburns big book of bullpoop :D :D
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I don't often agree with Mike but anyone who belives that they can make 100k a year peddling day to day carpet cleaning needs a reality check. maybe contracts on big boats blah blah blah its possible but not for the bread & butter guy. The 2 we have would struggle to do the 100k & we do a lot of insurance work.
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simon,
you stated you got Reasonable results with your porty !!!!
I was asking why only reasonable ?
Geoff
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I think this is the longest running thread yet?
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Simon only wants to put the boot into porty users i think this thread has run its course.
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Simon only wants to put the boot into porty users i think this thread has run its course.
Not after a comment like that it won't be ::)
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No Darren, Simon is not putting the boot in to porty users, he is a professional carpet cleaner at the top of his game who just uses the best equipment that money can buy. If you are not in this position then maybe you are just envious of one who is.
Phil
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here we go
i love my porty!!!( might change if/when buy t/m)
it earns me £50 ph .what is there not to like.......
it is cheaper to maintain....uses custy power......not more expense like a t/m (diesel/petrol)
and most importantly it fits in the back of my car! along with everything else i need
no cost of running a van
ok so i am only earning 50ph but more of the money belongs to me and not paid out for running costs...
interesting question..how much does it cost to run a t/m per hour??
how much does servicing cost on a t/m?? presumming that serviced every 100hrs??
what do t/m owners use when the t/m breaks down or need servicing???
do you cancel jobs or tell custy i gonna do a reasonable job with porty but not that great???
no argument just curious :)
disagree with above post..........simon is always rubbing someones nose in it whether porty or t/m
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this is going to run and run.
I don't think simon is putting the boot in to portable users any more than he would to a user of a less powerful truckmount.
I do think it could do with splitting into several different threads as it is getting quite long to read from he start
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Hi All,
My running costs are quite reasonable I think as I run mine on gas instead of petrol which is less than half the price of petrol, I service them myself every 50 hours and buy the service parts from the states and make quite a big saving there too, If the truckmount does breakdown it wouldn't be a problem as I would take the spare one out instead, which was payed for within a year by the first truckmount as well as the van to put it in. So the running costs don't really come into it for me as they are really small compared with what they earn.
All the best
John
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Chris
Are you free tomorrow afternoon as there is someone I would like you to meet, bring your machine
Jim
Think the ship has long sailed on insurance work
Len
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Darren,
No I am not putting the boot in porty users. If you read the opening post of this topic you will see that I started my business with a Prochem Steameasy 400 and gradually worked my way to doing medium to large commercial jobs with a twin vac machine and rotary scrubber. Then I got a Truck Mount, a small one at first and then came the RX20 and then twin capable Truck Mounts and next week a will be taking delivery of a triple capable Truck Mount, one of the most sophisticated and powerful Truck Mounts on the planet, capable of running three RX20 simultaneously and cleaning 1,500 sq yds of carpet in under four hours.
I am not doing this to put the boot into anyone, least of all portable operators, nor am I doing it because I am a show off. What I am showing you and everyone else in the industry is that if you aspire to be something more than you are today then anything is possible.
From the emails and phone calls I get I seem to inspire more people than I p off and the people I p off are the kind of people who don't want to be inspired in the first place but hate to see successful people doing better than they are and do everything they can to bring them down.
Oh well, that's life, I suppose.
Simon
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Simon your 24 hrs has expired ;)
Hope the missus is ok.
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Just came across your post Mr Halliday and you are absolutely right as you always are. I am nothing but a fool, with no knowledge, or experience, or training, or consideration for others and absolutely crap at cleaning carpets.
But .............strange thing is, I get my phone ringing daily, with requests to clean carpets and suites, either from previous customers or recommendations and no, it's not because I'm the cheapest although, at around the £50 an hour mark you might think so and it's not because of my heavy saturation advertising, I don't do any.
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ok sorted....cya 2moro :)
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Darren,
No I am not putting the boot in porty users. If you read the opening post of this topic you will see that I started my business with a Prochem Steameasy 400 and gradually worked my way to doing medium to large commercial jobs with a twin vac machine and rotary scrubber. Then I got a Truck Mount, a small one at first and then came the RX20 and then twin capable Truck Mounts and next week a will be taking delivery of a triple capable Truck Mount, one of the most sophisticated and powerful Truck Mounts on the planet, capable of running three RX20 simultaneously and cleaning 1,500 sq yds of carpet in under four hours.
I am not doing this to put the boot into anyone, least of all portable operators, nor am I doing it because I am a show off. What I am showing you and everyone else in the industry is that if you aspire to be something more than you are today then anything is possible.
From the emails and phone calls I get I seem to inspire more people than I p off and the people I p off are the kind of people who don't want to be inspired in the first place but hate to see successful people doing better than they are and do everything they can to bring them down.
Oh well, that's life, I suppose.
Simon
Simon,
You and I have communicated before by email and you seem to be a reasonable guy but I'm getting a little fed up with the inflammatory comments and sweeping statements being made.
Your last post suggests that porty owners do not wish aspire to anything greater and don't like to see more succesful people than themselves.
You may not have meant to say this, but this is what comes across.
For the avoidance of doubt, there many succesful porty operators, as can be read somewhere in this everlasting post, its just that you don't seem to be capable of listening to others' points of view, again as others have tried to point out to you.
At the end of the day it is all about commercial sense and what people want to achieve for their lifestyle.
Personally, a porty allows me to work the hours/days I want to, and provides me with the return I require (which is not necessarily any less than I would have if I had a TM, just less capital expenditure). Increasing my capital expenditure and decreasing cleaning time wouldn't really benefit me, and I am 99% domestic properties.
But to say that days of the portable operators are over (which you implied in an earlier post) is just plain rubbish.
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I think most people on here run their own business. And one of the main reasons they run their own business will be to do things the way they want to do them and not be dictated to by someone else trying to tell them how they should run theirs.
There are also two thinly veiled assumptions in Simon's posts. One is that all porty users are paupers because the only reason they don't have a truckmount is they can't afford one and the other is they are idiots for not having a truckmount if they can. While this may be true for some a) it's patronising and b)it takes no account of an individuals work/lifestyle choices.
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Turney and others,
I have NEVER knocked portable operators, as I have said repeatedly I started this business with them. If you look at the opening post of this topic you will see that I held Ken Wainwright up as a shining example of what can be achieved with a portable machine, and I meant every word of that, perhaps you conveniently hadn't read that bit.
The trouble is every time there is this TM / portable debate you portable guy's go all defensive and come up with all of the clichéd arguments for why you don't need a TM, even though the majority of you quite readily accept that TM's are in lots of ways better.
The other really fascinating thing is that the majority of you have never had or used a TM and your arguments as to whether or not you need one in your business are therefore baseless when making exchanges with people who have had both but and know the benefits first hand.
The other thing here Turney is that like you, I too am allowed to express my opinion and if you and others want to be childish and read things into what I have said then you go ahead and be childish but at the very least avail yourself of the facts first. Just because I say things that you do not agree with does NOT mean that I am knocking you or anyone else, it simply means that I have a different point of you than you do, so what?
Simon
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ronaldo went to play football in the park.........
while ronaldo was is the park he saw some other boys playing......
ronaldo then joined the boys and was playing nicely but then ended up telling everyone how great he was and how the other players were just not up to his standard or level.......and how he won this trophy and that title.........and how he had the 1st new adidias predator football boots...........
the other boys in the park decided that they were no longer interested in playing with ronaldo because no matter what they did it would never be good enough for him........and he would always put the other players down...
point being is that ronaldo never agrees with anyone.... ronaldo is the best .... ronaldos s==t doesnt stink...........ronaldo never makes mistakes.......
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If this subject was taken to it's logical conclusion, it's reasonable to say that, the newest technology, ie, the latest method of doing something that provides the highest productivety, is the only way to go and any one failing to comply will fail.
Fortunately, this is not the case and if it was, then you would be abandoning your t/m's and using the machines / methods, which would return the highest profit.
After all and strictly from a business point of view, it would be foolish to ignore the system or method ; -
That provides the highest productivety - which returns the highest return on investment - which gives you the MOST MONEY for each hour you work ( the reason for being in business )
Now, if you could reduce your costs still further ( retaining more profit ) by using a smaller vehicle. Would that not be fantastic ?
Just think. You would find parking an absolute doddle.
Now, what if you could do away with trailing hoses, no more worry about the potential damage claims.
What if you could do away with the need to lug around massive amounts of water ?
In other words and remember we are talking about the principles of running a business, the objective being MAXIMUM RETURN ON INVESTMENT.
There has been a growth in the US and Canada over the past 3 years of a method which answers most of the above and gives huge CUSTOMER SATISFACTION with excellent results and very quick drying times.
From a business pointof view, it seems incredible that anyone could ignore such a method.
Sure, in terms of HWE the TM is king, but in terms of profitability and THAT'S WHAT RUNNING A BUSINESS IS ABOUT another better, more advanced, greener, alternative, has been developed and is being adopted by more operators each year, because it works and does what it claims to do.
I know some people have played around with it and some just don't believe in it, but , if I were coming into this industry and fully understood th realities of business, ther would be one system at the top of my agenda.
But then, what do I know ?
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Simon,
Unless others think so I don't think my post was 'childish'.
I do think your your arguments are flawed, do not take into account others business needs, and at the very least patronising.
I think you are simply trying to carve yourself a niche as being an industry guru.
There are many on this forum whom I would deem to be 'gurus' on here but purely on their knowledge and experience, and not by their own self-promotion.
Live and let live, I say. There are many ways to clean a carpet, and each will have reasons for their methods.
As somone else said on this thread...Simon, you're not listening.
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Turney,
There you go again, making assumptions. Can't you make a reasoned point without resorting to twisting and turning other people's opinions to mean what you want it to mean?
You seem to be suggesting that people like me have no place on forums like this because I have a uniquely different view to that of your own or others. At no point during this discussion have I sought to persuade you or anyone else that my view on things is right, but I do have a right to express my opinion and I have done so without being in the slightest bit offensive to anyone involved.
And why is it that through my participation on this forum that my only motive is to become some sort of industry Guru, as you put it. Maybe I am just an enthusiastic contributor to this forum, with no second agenda, is that possible, Turney, or do we have to hang on your every word?
Simon
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The reason this thread has gone on and on is there is a scratch record playing. Accept other people have different views to you. What started out as an interesting and entertaining thread has become very tiresome.
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If this subject was taken to it's logical conclusion, it's reasonable to say that, the newest technology, ie, the latest method of doing something that provides the highest productivety, is the only way to go and any one failing to comply will fail.
Fortunately, this is not the case and if it was, then you would be abandoning your t/m's and using the machines / methods, which would return the highest profit.
After all and strictly from a business point of view, it would be foolish to ignore the system or method ; -
That provides the highest productivety - which returns the highest return on investment - which gives you the MOST MONEY for each hour you work ( the reason for being in business )
Now, if you could reduce your costs still further ( retaining more profit ) by using a smaller vehicle. Would that not be fantastic ?
Just think. You would find parking an absolute doddle.
Now, what if you could do away with trailing hoses, no more worry about the potential damage claims.
What if you could do away with the need to lug around massive amounts of water ?
In other words and remember we are talking about the principles of running a business, the objective being MAXIMUM RETURN ON INVESTMENT.
There has been a growth in the US and Canada over the past 3 years of a method which answers most of the above and gives huge CUSTOMER SATISFACTION with excellent results and very quick drying times.
From a business pointof view, it seems incredible that anyone could ignore such a method.
Sure, in terms of HWE the TM is king, but in terms of profitability and THAT'S WHAT RUNNING A BUSINESS IS ABOUT another better, more advanced, greener, alternative, has been developed and is being adopted by more operators each year, because it works and does what it claims to do.
I know some people have played around with it and some just don't believe in it, but , if I were coming into this industry and fully understood th realities of business, ther would be one system at the top of my agenda.
But then, what do I know ?
What a load of cods.
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carpet guy, why be so cryptic, then you would'nt get carpetworx making comments like he has, why not just name the system your talking about..... and please don't say encap' ;)
mike
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We all have our opinions on this based on our own specific situation. I do agree that for most portable users (unless they have chosen the 'lifestyle' option) a Tm is out of reach financially because their business is at an early stage of development, their part-time or they just dont turnover enough to justify the expense of purchase and running costs. There is no shame in this BTW. It is us who dictate how fast we grow and how much we make. Ive been in all three situations and a Tm was only purchased when it was needed as a labour saving tool.
And thats what a TM is. A labour saving tool. The same results can be got with a spoonge or a £1000 portable or a £4000 portable. It just takes longer. This whole argument of TM v portable could easily be mirrored with vax v portable or DIY v professional from a customers point of view. The principles are the same.
As for £50 and hour or £160 an hour or £100k a year is all possible depending upon you. I used to think £30 an hour was good until i realised just how much it takes to run a professional carpet cleaning business. Theres guys i know making over £150k on their own. They have chosen their market and can charge and make the figures they desire.
I believe the next year or so will be difficult due to the economy. Its those cleaners who run professional businesses meeting the needs of thier existing and potential customers who will be around for years to come. Therefore we should be moving our businesses in this direction regardless of portables or Tms.
Mark
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I know you're not a fan of O/P cleaning and I know you've tried it and it won't be for everyone, but from a business perspective, it makes absolute sense.
Use the method that will make you most money, period!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's been shown recently that cleaning leather could be made much easier and quicker and as a result more profitable, so more people are taking it up.
I'm not talking about the absolute best possible result, I'M TAKING ABOUT EARNING MONEY although it's been shown that O/P cleaning can get fantastic results and be a lot more profitable than HWE.
The question was " Why Not a Truck Mount "
There are a few answers above all perfectly reasonable, and because of the blinkered attitude, I feel the need to give the most important reason of all.
You can earn more, without the big outlay by following the growing in popularity method of cleaning, known as O/P cleaning.
About one fifth to one tenth the cost of a T/M
Only requires a small vehicle
Uses very little water
Easy to use, quick to learn
Green appeal
Fantastic results
Customer satisfaction
You asked the question. You have a few answers. I'm well aware of the cynical responses which will come, but rotaries are not new, been around for half a century, O/P machines have been developed over the past 10 - 15 years.
I imported one about 10 years ago, which I felt was too light and have watched their development along with greatly improved chemicals.
There's more than one way to skin cat and with the high productivety, low start up costs and high potential earnings, it would be foolish to ignore O/P.
The " muck spreading " comments are not justified as anyone who's used used these methods properly will testify.
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Rob
Also not a fan of o/p used one about five/six years ago it seemed to have a mind of it own. 8)
You sound like a franchisor (low start up costs and high potential earnings) ;D ;D :'(
Len
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We all have our opinions on this based on our own specific situation. I do agree that for most portable users (unless they have chosen the 'lifestyle' option) a Tm is out of reach financially because their business is at an early stage of development, their part-time or they just dont turnover enough to justify the expense of purchase and running costs. There is no shame in this BTW. It is us who dictate how fast we grow and how much we make. Ive been in all three situations and a Tm was only purchased when it was needed as a labour saving tool.
And thats what a TM is. A labour saving tool. The same results can be got with a spoonge or a £1000 portable or a £4000 portable. It just takes longer. This whole argument of TM v portable could easily be mirrored with vax v portable or DIY v professional from a customers point of view. The principles are the same.
As for £50 and hour or £160 an hour or £100k a year is all possible depending upon you. I used to think £30 an hour was good until i realised just how much it takes to run a professional carpet cleaning business. Theres guys i know making over £150k on their own. They have chosen their market and can charge and make the figures they desire.
I believe the next year or so will be difficult due to the economy. Its those cleaners who run professional businesses meeting the needs of thier existing and potential customers who will be around for years to come. Therefore we should be moving our businesses in this direction regardless of portables or Tms.
Mark
Mark I think that is the best post that has been made.
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Hi
I have been folowing this thread since the start and its not about the machines its about results 2 new customers this week both from referals.First cutomer trashed carpets had them cleaned once and then had to be replaced due to smell that could not be removed wasent there before dont know what system used. Now for the secound customer had a poor experiance with hwe poor results both customers will refer me and give recommendations.
I use o/p and have been for many years
steve
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At the end of the day its each to their own. As long as you get the results the customer has asked for and they are happy with end result then happy days, whether is a truck,porty,bonnet, host, etc etc.
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Len
Sorry if I sound like a franchisor, or franchisee, I'm neither, never could be, I just know there's more to life, than being a sheep, even a sheep that lives in a big house.
All I'm doing, is responding to a single minded opinion, with an alternative, as the objective of running any business, is the BOTTOM LINE and retaining as much as possible of the gross profit.
As I'm sure a few others will be well aware Jim Guerlink has developed the o/p o offer a genuine alternative to hwe. So much so, that he converts t/m users to o/p based on results.
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Rob
(it would be foolish to ignore O/P) O/P machines appear to be very expensive over here and limited suppliers! :o Compared to say Numatic which is a cheaper alternative, ;) is there a UK manufacturer for O/P if not why not.
Think a few TM’ers/porty users, use other systems but main stay is you what. ;)
Have to take the fifth on the Americans :-X
Len
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I know you're not a fan of O/P cleaning and I know you've tried it and it won't be for everyone, but from a business perspective, it makes absolute sense.
Use the method that will make you most money, period!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's been shown recently that cleaning leather could be made much easier and quicker and as a result more profitable, so more people are taking it up.
I'm not talking about the absolute best possible result, I'M TAKING ABOUT EARNING MONEY although it's been shown that O/P cleaning can get fantastic results and be a lot more profitable than HWE.
The question was " Why Not a Truck Mount "
There are a few answers above all perfectly reasonable, and because of the blinkered attitude, I feel the need to give the most important reason of all.
You can earn more, without the big outlay by following the growing in popularity method of cleaning, known as O/P cleaning.
About one fifth to one tenth the cost of a T/M
Only requires a small vehicle
Uses very little water
Easy to use, quick to learn
Green appeal
Fantastic results
Customer satisfaction
You asked the question. You have a few answers. I'm well aware of the cynical responses which will come, but rotaries are not new, been around for half a century, O/P machines have been developed over the past 10 - 15 years.
I imported one about 10 years ago, which I felt was too light and have watched their development along with greatly improved chemicals.
There's more than one way to skin cat and with the high productivety, low start up costs and high potential earnings, it would be foolish to ignore O/P.
The " muck spreading " comments are not justified as anyone who's used used these methods properly will testify.
OP machines were actually around years before the rotary.
I think it goes something like; the high speed rotary arrived and took over the OP machine with the slow speed rotary following to fill the gap.
However, people are realising that the OP can take the place of having 2 rotaries.
On with the debate...
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As far as I know Rich the originators of the o/p are Argo but not certain, they were using rotary in the late 1940's and developed a machine wich has a rectangular drive plate. I imported one about 10 years ago, but found it too light ( it was the smallest )
Argo have their own chemical, which a couple of guys on here have used, I found it to be a fantastic product.
Their concept was similar to Texatherm, but without the heat and with only one product.
Len
There is an o/p on sale at around £1800, from the guy in Cornwall, about the same as a twin vac / 300 psi machine.
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Rich
I love history can you provide data ::) (OP machines were actually around years before the rotary.) :-*
Rob
It’s American I want British or at least EU. ;)
Len
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Len
What do you currently use that is really British ? What's wrong with American or Canadian.
Some of the machines come from as far as Australia, some from India, others from Italy and Germany even South Africa.
As in any business, with the main objective being profit, there is only one way to go. The product that cleans most effectively always considering cost effectiveness as well as efficiency.
Machines / Systems which provide the highest productivety and are the least labour intensive.
If you want to add the "eco" side of things, fine, but I don't really subscribe to much of the thinking. For example there is certainly no shortage of water in the UK it's just not managed effectively and there is an unstoppable and constant production of heat and gases from under our oceans, definately not controllale by humans.
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Hi
I belive the op machine was made by ricket and coleman to sand wood floors back in the thirties as they dont leave swerll marks in the wood. the ameriacans found they could be used for cleaning carpets
steve
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I can see similaritys here the same as we have in window cleaning.
You ca make a decent living with a ladder and a squeegie and £10.00 of petrol in your family car, but to make the real dosh you need wfp and everything that goes with it.
A £20k van
A £5k system
£3k worth of poles
and £400 of fuel a month.
I know which side my breads buttered so i jumped in feet first, never looked back trebled my turnover in 3 years
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Rob
I love Americans and Canadians and some other countries that you mentioned, got to keep on there right side got family there cheap hols.
Could not agree more (As in any business, with the main objective being profit) there are cheaper rotary machines out there and to a point British, so why would I buy one that comes from America. Yes the tm came from there but parts are available here.
One day I will tell you about my muck spreading antics customer over the moon that was before hwe. :D
Len
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Len
A good reason to buy anything from the US is the lack of availability and, or, cost. I've imported a number of items ( mainly for sports rehab or similar ) but I'm pleased to say, the best Laser therapy device available is exported to the US from Britain ( made in Scotland )
I only got involved in the o/p postings as I was getting fed up with the uncompromising comments.
We are all different--- in ability - physical capability - quality delivered - desires - motivation, etc.
A dedicated and exceptional operator using a decent portable, can produce as good a result as an average t/m operator. Does'nt mean the portables a better machine, but if someone is happy with the extra effort involved, fine!
Was watching Top Gear today, when a car with massive power and high top speed was soundly beaten by less powerful and lower top speed, cars on the circuit, thought it was a good analogy.
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Rob
I for one know TM’s are not the Holy Grail. On some of my jobs it lays dormant. :'(
I also watch top gear great isn’t it, my 105e run rings round the e-type on the track. :D
Len
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Think the momentum has gone from this one Len. I remember a friend who owned a garage, picked up half a dozen 105's for £ 80 each at an auction.