Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Clive McDonald on April 20, 2008, 01:15:04 pm
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I was very surprised that forum members didn't already know or agree with this. Almost any aspect of your business will be improved by investment. In fact unless you invest you will be left behind.
No matter how many examples you can think of failed investment, if you have a sound basic business, run sensibly, with appropriate and relevant investments, these investments will succeed.
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how very true (mr sol ) you only invest to make things better and as you state not to be left behind .
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I disagree.
Have you never heard of a "bad investment"?????
Wise investment can pay big dividends,... but who among us makes the wise decision every single time?
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How many people have you heard say investing in wfp was a bad decision Nathaneal?
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Very few.
But your statement was "Investment always pays",.. Not "Investment in wfp always pays"!!!
Also,.. as mentioned on another thread, you can invest £15k on an Ionics setup, or £1K on a DIY setup,... and the potential earnings would be in many cases very similar.
"Wise Investment in WFP (Nearly) always pays", is a statement I'd settle for,...
;D ;D ;D
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The right investment will always pay.
Or you could have...........
A well considered investment will always pay.
Or you could have...........
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It's unfair to name names Nathaneal but a very good friend of yours posted soon after switching that he's had his best day ever on about day nine (i can remember the figure), and he had been window cleaning for nine years trad before that.
When contrasts are as stark as that it should be pretty obvious which is the way forward in a business sense. I -more or less- started in WFP and have played what Graham Taylor used to call route one football ever since, I bought a van when I had a customer base of only thirty. My wife told me how stupid this was at the time.However I believe that now I am on par with any single operator on here and have leap frogged many.
As Ewan says there are many forms of investment including time and study. There have been several threads on here about employment and expansion. Many have employed and retreated saying it is a nightmare, it has worked for a few, but there is a period of expansion where you are worse off than if you had remained a single operator.Ian Ferguson came up with a brilliant and elegant solution to this in the form of franchising.
However, if you want to remain a single operator, but earn the maximum amount of money (as a business) then your only real option is investment. This need not always mean money, I note your excellent hot system and accompianing logo so that you have packaged yourself pretty well, but you are one in a hundred Nathaneal, and on the ninety ninth percentile it's a wonder you can breath up there.
For the majority, they can either learn from the forum, or they can spend, or they can be something in between.
I've got a hot system, i've got an electric reel, but I still think an expensive Ionics system is a very good investment.
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Very few.
But your statement was "Investment always pays",.. Not "Investment in wfp always pays"!!!
Also,.. as mentioned on another thread, you can invest £15k on an Ionics setup, or £1K on a DIY setup,... and the potential earnings would be in many cases very similar.
"Wise Investment in WFP (Nearly) always pays", is a statement I'd settle for,...
;D ;D ;D
Eactly right Nathaneal!! Investment in wfp is a very good investment, but spending silly money on a system is foolish when a cheap diy system does exactly the same job!!!!! ;)
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I only invest when needed. If I need a longer pole I buy one. If I need another van, again, I go and buy one- simple
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discount
sol
clive
ever heard of logic?
the statement "investment always pays" is a fallacy
it only takes one example of investment not paying to disprove it
several other people have pointed this out but you choose to ignore it
there is no point to this post as your argument is flawed
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I note your excellent hot system and accompianing logo so that you have packaged yourself pretty well, but you are one in a hundred Nathaneal, and on the ninety ninth percentile it's a wonder you can breath up there.
For the majority, they can either learn from the forum, or they can spend, or they can be something in between.
I believe you are underestimating your fellow cleaners Clive! There are plenty of ppl on here that have the will, and the skill to do exactly what we have done,.. get an exceptional setup on a tiny budget.
What I've done is easily achievable, and I reckon soon many ppl will be doing the same.
I just want to share my experiences and help ppl do this easier, cheaper and quicker, without repeating my mistakes.
The logo btw I made myself, and I'm happy to make it available to anyone who wants to use it. It's too big to post here,.. but if you want it just send me an e-mail and I'll send the file to you.
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A fool and his money are easily parted!
Yes the right investment can reap benefits, but the wrong investment can sit in the back of the garage for evermore and be a constant reminder of not thinking before buying!
WFP does not always pay for everyone, there are a lot of people who have been there and gone back to ladders as it suited their business better
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This is an interesting post. I invested in an Ionic system + new van etc as I just simply would not have had the know how or the inclination to set up my own. Ive every admiration for those that have a DIY system. But for me, Ionics was the way to go, I have neve done trad and I think it makes it easier for someone like me as all I know is WFP and Ionics and Ive nothing to compare it to.
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I've made a few bad buys and business mistakes Lionheart so I suppose i do fit into the fool and his money catergory, but I always make loads too.
I had a trailer and tried to get a system into it. It was horrible impossible to park and 450kg for me to lift on and off the towbar everytime I was in a cul Sde sac.So I bought a van 7k plus the vat just to make my life serviciing thirty customers easier.My whole ethos is about making my life easier. I am fifty two years old and I find the job very hard, and if i'm honest when I started knocking those first few doors and asking can I clean your windows a little humilating.
I had a split relay pro installed and the van sign written. One day a friendly competitor showed me his thermopure, the feel of the hot water on my hand was enough to convince me that I needed one. I hadn't actually got the cash spare so after posting on here i chanced £300 on building my own. I figured if it didn't work it wasn't the end of the world. It did work, it was and is brilliant and by far the best thing i've ever done.
My speed and my earnings leapt, but big money or no I was still sh@@ged after a shift. I reasoned that if I could take out rewinding the reel then this would help,as the only thing that really puts a ceiling on me is my physical ability. That's what made me push for the electric reel, I wasn't happy that the ones available would do what I wanted so I designed my own. Yes- with an electric drill- but things have moved on a lot since then and this is the second best thing i've ever done.
So I am human, i do make mistakes . I have three varistreams,two reels, three batteries,and some poles I shouldn't have bought- but i also have some succeses, and in the electric reel a showstopper.
All businesses need investment and ours is no different, invest and the rewards will come.Jimmy1 believe me you have saved yourself a year of life and you have done exactly what the text books say you should, well done.
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Cheers discount, I think so and it seems to be paying off.
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I've been thinking about your electric reel Clive,.... it's not an electric window winder motor you're using is it?
I like the idea,... want to give it a try myself soon.
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I invest what I think is necessary
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This is an interesting post. I invested in an Ionic system + new van etc as I just simply would not have had the know how or the inclination to set up my own. Ive every admiration for those that have a DIY system. But for me, Ionics was the way to go, I have neve done trad and I think it makes it easier for someone like me as all I know is WFP and Ionics and Ive nothing to compare it to.
Tank, pump, hose, pole, oh and a ro in the shed, it's not rocket science you know!!! and would have saved you thousands, and would have done exactly the same job!!!! ;)
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The point is I couldn't be bothered, I would rather pay and have everything done for me. I'm happy with what I paid and don't care that i could have saved money. It was worth it to me to save me the hassle. The point is each to there own as long as you are happy with what youve got ther is no right or wrong way.
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I've made a few bad buys and business mistakes Lionheart so I suppose i do fit into the fool and his money catergory, but I always make loads too.
I had a trailer and tried to get a system into it. It was horrible impossible to park and 450kg for me to lift on and off the towbar everytime I was in a cul Sde sac.So I bought a van 7k plus the vat just to make my life serviciing thirty customers easier.My whole ethos is about making my life easier. I am fifty two years old and I find the job very hard, and if i'm honest when I started knocking those first few doors and asking can I clean your windows a little humilating.
I had a split relay pro installed and the van sign written. One day a friendly competitor showed me his thermopure, the feel of the hot water on my hand was enough to convince me that I needed one. I hadn't actually got the cash spare so after posting on here i chanced £300 on building my own. I figured if it didn't work it wasn't the end of the world. It did work, it was and is brilliant and by far the best thing i've ever done.
My speed and my earnings leapt, but big money or no I was still sh@@ged after a shift. I reasoned that if I could take out rewinding the reel then this would help,as the only thing that really puts a ceiling on me is my physical ability. That's what made me push for the electric reel, I wasn't happy that the ones available would do what I wanted so I designed my own. Yes- with an electric drill- but things have moved on a lot since then and this is the second best thing i've ever done.
So I am human, i do make mistakes . I have three varistreams,two reels, three batteries,and some poles I shouldn't have bought- but i also have some succeses, and in the electric reel a showstopper.
All businesses need investment and ours is no different, invest and the rewards will come.Jimmy1 believe me you have saved yourself a year of life and you have done exactly what the text books say you should, well done.
Ive got to say this is your best post by far, you've given insight into the reasons why you have choosen to do the things you've done and no one is going to slate that.
Welcome back
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I've made a few bad buys and business mistakes Lionheart so I suppose i do fit into the fool and his money catergory, but I always make loads too.
I had a trailer and tried to get a system into it. It was horrible impossible to park and 450kg for me to lift on and off the towbar everytime I was in a cul Sde sac.So I bought a van 7k plus the vat just to make my life serviciing thirty customers easier.My whole ethos is about making my life easier. I am fifty two years old and I find the job very hard, and if i'm honest when I started knocking those first few doors and asking can I clean your windows a little humilating.
I had a split relay pro installed and the van sign written. One day a friendly competitor showed me his thermopure, the feel of the hot water on my hand was enough to convince me that I needed one. I hadn't actually got the cash spare so after posting on here i chanced £300 on building my own. I figured if it didn't work it wasn't the end of the world. It did work, it was and is brilliant and by far the best thing i've ever done.
My speed and my earnings leapt, but big money or no I was still sh@@ged after a shift. I reasoned that if I could take out rewinding the reel then this would help,as the only thing that really puts a ceiling on me is my physical ability. That's what made me push for the electric reel, I wasn't happy that the ones available would do what I wanted so I designed my own. Yes- with an electric drill- but things have moved on a lot since then and this is the second best thing i've ever done.
So I am human, i do make mistakes . I have three varistreams,two reels, three batteries,and some poles I shouldn't have bought- but i also have some succeses, and in the electric reel a showstopper.
All businesses need investment and ours is no different, invest and the rewards will come.Jimmy1 believe me you have saved yourself a year of life and you have done exactly what the text books say you should, well done.
Ive got to say this is your best post by far, you've given insight into the reasons why you have choosen to do the things you've done and no one is going to slate that.
Welcome back
yet he still has digs at people who DIY sytems themselves eventhough he has built his own ::) ::) now thats ironic
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Don't get so wound up I was only joking. I think you and pro went a bit rther than you mean't with the banter although the burbury on Bermondsey was quite good. The guy who runs wembley has just been done 300k and is looking at pokey.
Ref the cheap suit and shiny shoes i think this a silence of the lambs lift, what he actually said was cheap shoes and something about the suit (ladies business suit) that Clarise wore when she visited him (lector). From this he went on to make inferences about her childhood and get inside her mind.
Your orignal post was in fact quite disrespectfull and dissmisive of anyone with an expensive system. These people have feelings too, and are constantly called stupid- hence the backlash.
I shouldn't fire at squeaky like i do because I know he's just himself, but sometimes I just can;t help it.
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The title of this post is wrong to start with, investment can work, other times not.
Investment does not always pay as everyone would do it ::)
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It worked for you WW.
It can still work for you. Think about it, your business changed markedlyfor the better when you invested in a van mount?
Invest again, improve again. It's how business works,
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It worked for you WW.
It can still work for you. Think about it, your business changed markedlyfor the better when you invested in a van mount?
Invest again, improve again. It's how business works,
in a way yes, other ways yes investment helped, but sometimes investment does not work you already know this ;).
I know where you are coming from, was just pointing out that investment does not always pay.
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Ref the cheap suit and shiny shoes i think this a silence of the lambs lift, what he actually said was cheap shoes and something about the suit (ladies business suit) that Clarise wore when she visited him (lector). From this he went on to make inferences about her childhood and get inside her mind.
my ref to this is from a song " weeekender", top song from the early 90's
Your orignal post was in fact quite disrespectfull and dissmisive of anyone with an expensive system. These people have feelings too, and are constantly called stupid- hence the backlash.
my original post in that other thread, i actually said " people who use the " mine cost more, so its better" are stupid and i stand by that, as the comment is something a 5yr old would use taling about a bike or something , the facts of the situation are what i put, we all use the same water, pump, we try and find which pole / brush suits us ( how mnay have 5 poles and the same brushes , you try them all out and find your fav and people fall into certain camps, people who are blind to the fact that other systems work just aswell and come out with the line " mine costs more, so its better " that line has been used on here more than once ::) ::) , you have the people who buy the system because they didnt know ( a local guy to me, allways stops for a chat, he paid for a system and wishes he had saved his money and put it towards a holiday place in spain, he just didnt know you could get the parts off the shelf, he had never heard of this place, he has seen me working out of a car and now my van, he allways laughes that he needs to work 2 hours more per day to pay for his van and setup, he's a good lighthearted type of bloke, just didnt know that you could build a system yourself, infact he now has a backpack on a sacktruck and uses that for a bit of his work, saves a hose across the pavement )
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I spent 4k on my system 3 years ago(supplied and fitted). I've not had one problem with it.
My mate went the DIY route and spent £1200 at around the same time.
At the time I thought perhaps I had been ripped off. But not now. Hes had endless problems making many trips to the suppliers and endless days trying to adjust his system.
Every time he sees my system he drools over the hassle free and quick way it goes about its business.
You can pay over the top but that 4k is the best 4k I've ever spent.
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Matt,
I have never seen anyone in all my time here say " mine costs more, so its better " if you cant point me in the direction of them posts I will hold my toungue. However I have seen many of dreamers making out there major players and our logo's and brands are nothing "all you need is a pair of shinny shoes and a fmaily car" but in reality there commercial empire is nothing more than a £5 shop window ;D ;D ;D ;D
The investment I made worked for me although I couldn't say if it would for everyone. I have work that would make your jaw drop and dont have to dream or pretend to others where my business is.
Pro
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Mr Sol, as you are getting on and have problems with the physical side of the job, i would hope you have invested heavily in the lightest possible carbon poles and lightweight brushes? ;D
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You can pay over the top but that 4k is the best 4k I've ever spent.
4K is a good price for a pro setup 3 years ago,... it goes to show that even those who don't want to go DIY have other options that a £15k Ionics setup,... there are lots of sensible alternatives.
I've nothing against pro systems (My next setup might well be a purefredom one),.. I'm just against the ones with silly price tags!
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There's something else too Matt, I know some of my posts get up people's nose's- and I know that people bragg about earnings, but aside from that when you get some of the top cleaners posting,- such as propole- conceited or not, it gives the rest of us something to aim for
Why should we all be mediocre and do things on the cheap?
We need Ronaldos in this life even if they do earn too much!
But don't worry DJW we need journymen Fred Dibnah types as well ;)
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The thing is how do you KNOW who the top earners are? JDemacho was pretty good after all.
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The thing is how do you KNOW who the top earners are? JDemacho was pretty good after all.
exactly
it doesnt take much for some1 to come on here and say " look at me, im a success,i earn XXXX a week "
i know a bloke ( some1 who i would call a mate ) he was on here a long time ago, he exchanged e.mails and took advice from this bloke, this bloke painted a picture that he was 1 of the area's big boys, had all the better contracts, earnt big money, they met up 1 day, the successfull guy wanted to swap something with him, to save him the travel, the guy went around his house ( got his address from his website ), the big success still lived at home with his parents and drove a clapped out old van
he left the forum as he said its full of day dreamers who dont live in the real world
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TDW,
What system did you buy 3 years ago for £4K, we bought a Stream system around the same time and it's been virtually trouble free for us, however it doesn't look much better than a DIY system and I think we will do our next one ourselves.
Discount,
I wasn't calling anyone in particular a fool, if I want to do that I can just look in the mirror and tell the guy there!! We've made several bad investments since starting out, however we have also made some very good if not excellent investments over the same period.
I am now a firm believer in "buy the best equipment you can afford in order to do the job quicker, easier and better"
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Yes, yes, and yes. As far as this thread goes that's one heck of a mission statement
."buy the best equipment you can afford in order to do the job quicker, easier and better"
It amazes me though that some people can't see a connection between their sudden, success and investment. Without being unkind there are some people on here who I would term failures, untill investment changed this, unless they seize the connection the shape of their lives will be drawn back to where it's most comfortable.imo
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This thread is cobblers. Its that plonker up to his old tricks again.
It should be "A fool and his money are soon parted"
Don't waste your time.
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Yes, yes, and yes. As far as this thread goes that's one heck of a mission statement
."buy the best equipment you can afford in order to do the job quicker, easier and better"
It amazes me though that some people can't see a connection between their sudden, success and investment. Without being unkind there are some people on here who I would term failures, untill investment changed this, unless they seize the connection the shape of their lives will be drawn back to where it's most comfortable.imo
I really hope that was in no way pointed in my way, I personally invested in wfp because I had an accident and value my body more than money that was my push.
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How can spending money make you more successful? We had a post before, called "who's got his head screwed on?" where a member on this forum was used by me as an example of someone who had a full round, plenty of work, had been cleaning for years but had spent next to nothing on his system - he doesn't need to - no point. Then there is the guy who spends thirty thousand pounds on a van and system but has no work. Who's successful now?????
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How can spending money make you more successful? We had a post before, called "who's got his head screwed on?" where a member on this forum was used by me as an example of someone who had a full round, plenty of work, had been cleaning for years but had spent next to nothing on his system - he doesn't need to - no point. Then there is the guy who spends thirty thousand pounds on a van and system but has no work. Who's successful now?????
valid point that ;), investment can work if done correctly
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This has to be one job where you don't NEED to invest much to gain success. You would be better off investing in labour to be a success and employing someone to do the donkey work for you. The whole thing about windowcleaning is the attraction of minimal investment requirements to start up in the first place with minimal training and low overheads.
I have invested around £10,000 to get into wfp from another trade. A good investment in one sense as it gives me employment but if you saw my figures for the first year in no way would it be deemed a successful investment. Had a bankmanager loaned me the money his eyes would be watering by now. ;D
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What a fantastic topic,
At JVP we have invested large amounts of money during 2007 and it is really paying off, as long as you have a good development plan in place and spend the money on things that will make you money, you can't go wrong.
All the best to everyone that is going to invest in window cleaning in 2008
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This thread is cobblers. Its that plonker up to his old tricks again.
It should be "A fool and his money are soon parted"
Don't waste your time.
spot on vince
What a fantastic topic,
At JVP we have invested large amounts of money during 2007 and it is really paying off, as long as you have a good development plan in place and spend the money on things that will make you money, you can't go wrong.
All the best to everyone that is going to invest in window cleaning in 2008
cant go wrong ??? ???
never ???
ever ???
if it paid off for you mate well done
BUT lets not kid everyone that investment in a business ALWAYS pays off because it patently does NOT
garbage thread set up by sol in reaction to comments on one up for cobblers thread
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Like i said good invesment pays off, bad investment makes you bust
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whats the title of this thread ???
how do you know if its a good or a bad investment ???
the short answer is ......you dont
ALL investment is a gamble to SOME extent
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How are you doing mr thorpe ?
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Lionheart
I got mine system from a guy called Denis in Grantham. Waterfed-pole-systems.co.uk
Like I said it has never given any trouble.
TDW
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hello jonah
i am doing great
i have invested 1000's in new equipment,and knowing that i cant fail to improve my business because of so doing i have booked a villa in tuscany for august and will be trading the s60 in for a brand new xc90(volvo)at the weekend ;D ;D
(not)
i am fine mate ,you STILL on the ladders ???
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Lionheart
I got mine system from a guy called Denis in Grantham. Waterfed-pole-systems.co.uk
Like I said it has never given any trouble.
TDW
where you based mate ???
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Most of my work is in Bournemouth but I have a weeks work in London.
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oh right
when you mentioned Grantham i thought you might be near me ::)
my mistake ;D
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No problem. It was a long to go. Just aswell I didnt have any problems!
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Been away working in Chipping Ongar & Colchester - interesting thread this one.
Like the idea of the original thread but from my view point I feel that you have to calculate investment and what return you may gain in the future.
In March we invested over £6000.00 on a drain jetter & camera cctv system, just cleaned drains on two supermarkets and got back over half the initial investment in a one week period.
The investment is certainly going to pay for itself many times over.
If your investment is calculated it should give you the reward you are looking for.
Rob ;D
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I reckon I invested about 12 - 14 grand to get myself properly up and running. This included a van that was under 3 years old. I bought stuff that was more than I needed at thew time because I could see the potential for having to upgrade within a year or so and I didn't want to do that. I paid others to do much of the work for me bevause I didn't know what I was doing. I feel that I paid a fair price. Others made some profit from me so that I could make more profit from my customers. I've no problem with that. If I had tried to set it all up by myself, it would have taken me far longer and there was the potential for many more mistakes. That would have used up time when I could have been earning money. Now that I've learned more about WFP and it is all set up, I am capable of doing most of the work myself to maintain my business - which I do. I'm not above calling in hired help if needed though. I'm not so keen on doing electrical things (particularly if it involves 240 volts) so would get help for much of that stuff.
I got a fair deal IMO. I make a lot more money than I used to. The money I paid out to get started has meant a lot of tax relief so far (the bill for extra income hasn't kicked in yet) and I didn't have to pay any tax in January as my allowance for capital items was pretty high (I have some to pay in July though).
If I had been a proficient DIY person, I would have done more of the work myself but I'm not. So long as I can do bits of maintenance on a system that is already set up, I'm OK with that.
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What you don't realise is that the "investment" that he is talking about is taking out a franchise. He keeps trying to bring up the subject with threads like this and several of us, probably me most of all, keep opposing him.
I question his motives. Go back and look at what he is saying and you will realise what he is trying to do. He's trying to start a topic on investment hoping that it can be steered around to franchising. You can guess why.
He hides behind false names, several in fact on this forum, and pretends to be all innocent but he's not kosher.
One of the rules of this forum is that you are not allowed to use it to promote your own business interests.
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Who says you are not allowed to promote your own business interests.
I can think of one guy who does nothing but promote his business interests on this forum.
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Who says you are not allowed to promote your own business interests.
I can think of one guy who does nothing but promote his business interests on this forum.
Who's that person ::)
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What you don't realise is that the "investment" that he is talking about is taking out a franchise. He keeps trying to bring up the subject with threads like this and several of us, probably me most of all, keep opposing him.
I question his motives. Go back and look at what he is saying and you will realise what he is trying to do. He's trying to start a topic on investment hoping that it can be steered around to franchising. You can guess why.
He hides behind false names, several in fact on this forum, and pretends to be all innocent but he's not kosher.
One of the rules of this forum is that you are not allowed to use it to promote your own business interests.
Are you referring to Discount Window cleaning (possibly also known as Mr Solubility)?
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Mr. Sol
Please would you answer the following-
Why did you only spend 7k on your van when there are top of the range VW transporters out there for 23k? or, maybe, why not go & get one now?
Why don't you scrap your diy set up & go staight to Ionics to invest 15k?
At 52 &, in your own words "already a successful business man" now & before your w/cing venture, why are you not retired?
Look forward to your reply
regards
Tony
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deafening silence ???
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Nope, he's going through his library to find an answer no-one can understand, give him an hour or two. ;D
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;D no wonder you are so popular ;)
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I do find it interesting that championing investment, and trying to flesh it out a bit with bits about myself should provoke such hostility.Sprinkling salt on slugs springs to mind.
It was very encouraging that some of the bigger concerns chipped in a little- cheers charlie- but predictable that the same old people should dumb this down straight away to a demand for facts and figures.
When DJW talked about his own 10k investment and deemed it poor, the one thing he forgot of course is that he is still in year one.
Thanks for all your input guys.
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Mr Sol I think you should lock this thread to get rid of it, as the title 'Investment always pays' makes you sound a little bit uninformed, as it is clearly nonesense!!! ;)
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Mr Sol I think you should lock this thread to get rid of it, as the 'title Investment always pays' makes you sound a little bit uninformed, as it is clearly nonesense!!! ;)
keep this up gh and we may be accused of getting on ;D
this is the point i have made from the start
its a massive generalisation to say that investment ALWAYS pays
trouble is sol will not be wrong
even if you give examples of investment FAILING
clive loves gadgets
he likes to spend
anyone who does not agree with the text books is wrong
well sorry but in summary
INVESTMENT DOES NOT ALWAYS PAY
there are plenty of examples to show this to be true
so qualify your statement or shut the flip up mr sol ::)
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I agree that this thread has run it's course and probably should be locked as the same old ground is being covered and even the insults are looking a little tired.
It's a forum, points and posts are best made briefly without the waffle to qualify every statement. This post, as the attached poll was about peoples views, not if a particular statement is right or wrong. My view is that investment always pays, yours seems to be the opposite view.
You are not likely to change your opinion, but the voting - 50%- saying that buying what seemed an overpriced system was the best thing they ever did, should at least give you pause. Again in my view you either invest and move on or stay where you are, it's up to you really.