Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: stevegunn on April 03, 2008, 08:19:58 pm
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Got my renewal through on Tuesday and seriously thinking of pulling the plug as all this for the use of a logo that the general public are not really aware of.Membership benefits are are not great either use of logo? Technical advice available widely on the forums? Sponsored schemes workwear,insurance,web design and legal helpline all available cheaper elsewhere.The only benefit of any significance is the corporate ad in the yellow pages.
My FSB membership is only £130 and there seem to be more benefits to that than the ncca.
Can anyone convince me otherwise ???
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Works in my area Steve, make a few hundred quid a year, nothing exceptional but more than covers membership. I use their leaflet in my sales pitch and it impresses some people.
I would stick with it as it is our CC cleaning assoc and i feel i should support it despite the shortcomings you point out.
Mark
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I'm getting a bit fed up myself Steve. Ever since I have been a member I have just about broken even on NCCA enquiries, although this year has been better. But to be honest thats probably it for the year as usual. I will stay a member for now though and see how it goes - you never know :-\
Dont even get me started on the IICRC! If they dont pull their finger out pronto I'm off :o
I just wish it could all be promoted better - especially with manufacturers and retailers. This would put into the public's mind who they are and what they stand for. We would all benefit hugely from this and get more business in return ;D. Oh well we can all dream...
Kev
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In general terms Steve.
Consumer groups are always preaching to the consumer to buy services, and sometimes products, from companies that are members of recognised trade organisations.
As for the benefits of discounts for members, you firstly need the product to want to buy it, so yes, these benefits are not always of great value but some, myself included, have used them to good effect. And no matter what the goods or service, you will always be able to buy cheaper somewhere.
Some of the Associate Members will have special offers exclusive to NCCA Members. As an example, I think Ashby's had an exclusive 10% discount sometime last year.
If you want a voice in our industry in places where it will be best heard, then, unless you are a campaigner/lobbyist yourself, then the NCCA is that voice.
Although the Association is not a sales and marketing organisation, especially since the advent of the internet and the Find a Carpet Cleaner page on the Associations website, many, many members find that they receive more enquiries and subsequent work from just this one source to more than pay for their fees. Just this week I had 1 job from B'ham Social Services that has more than paid for two years membership fees. Members I have spoken to who have their own website linked to the NCCA's report more enquiries than me (I get about 1 per month from the website plus the occasional via telephone). And as for the Corporate Advert in Yellow Pages, two directories for £118 is good value, as Steve has already said.
Virtually every trade association in the land is not known of by most consumers. But if you use your membership to best advantage, it's a great tool to help sell your professionalism and command a premium price for your premium service. Every cold quote I do I give an NCCA flyer.
I have always considered my NCCA Membership as being beneficial to my business. The fact that it also generates quality leads for me is a BIG bonus.
I have also heard of a few members who claim they've never had an enquiry via NCCA sources. When asked if they "tracked" their enquiries, a couple said no :-X
The NCCA is not to everyones liking, so It's true when they say that you can't please all the people all of the time.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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I was the same as you Steve, another £200+ for what amounts to 12 magazine subscriptions.
The NCCA say that YOU have to promote yourself as a member but I think that if you are going to do that you can quite easily promote yourself as a specialist with years of experience just change the words to suit.
I would have thought by now that the NCCA would be listening to what their members want, I know that advertising to the general public is expensive but advertising via dirct mail to the suppliers and manufacturers selling the benefits of using a member would be better IMO.
I thought about rejoining but I'm not too sure now, I don't think it's going anywhere and that is what I stated 5 years ago when I chucked out so I've saved a grand.
Shaun
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Ken,
Can i ask why it is always you coming on and defending the NCCA, Non of the other directors come on here and explain these thing with the same passion as you do.
This being the leeding forum warrants them to take notice and listen to what the CC's are saying. Prehaps at your next NCCA meeting non members should be allowed in to starting expressing their opinon and try to get things to change, or call an extraordinary meeting and invite people to have a open view on where the NCCA should be going.
Something needs to be done because you are getting longstand members and experienced CC's that just think its an Old boys club going nowhere.
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I do pretty well from being a member, aside from people finding me on the NCCA site which I have to be honest isnt many, i get quite a few jobs from customers who have Brintons carpets, they ring Brintons and ask about cleaning and they tell them to use an NCCA member. Also every call I get I explain about the NCCA and tell them to check out my credentials on the NCCA site, on many occasions I have been told ive been quoted agaisnt by other companies but they have chosen me because im a member. It doesnt make me millions of quid :( but profits profit!
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Hi
I think to do well from the NCCA membership you have to push your membership to customers.
Generally customers are ignorant of NCCA, IICRC, Woolsafe etc.
Dave
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Neil
As you have already gathered, I am a passionate believer in what the NCCA stands for.
I am no longer a Director of the NCCA but, as previously, I am, like some others, an "active" member.
Most of the Directors, like nearly all of our industry's manufacturers and suppliers, have decided not to contribute to internet forums. Both myself and Derek Bolton, and more recently Nick Johnston, whilst we broadly agree with this action, also believe that some presence is beneficial. We all realise though, that if you stand there as a figure head, you are just waiting to be shot down. Perhaps one reason why the barrage of non-believers will appear to "win" membership debates purely by force of numbers.
One of the major problems is that we (the Association) can have significant projects that can involve 2, 3 or more years work and effort. It would be improper to discuss these things publicly before completion, sometimes they can be delayed for a miriad of reasons and even be cancelled, plus there can be commercial confidentiallity issues too. A recent project was over two years old. It had to be scrapped and started again :-[ And not because of anything within direct control of the Association.
I am (quite rightly) still bound by a confidentiallity agreement not discuss Board issues with others. There have been in the past, especially in the early years of forums when some other directors participated, issues raised which a director refused point blank to answer because of the confidentiallity issue about a project in development. Incidents like this can cause so much ill will because some forum members can't understand why there's no answer forthcoming. Hence no Directors on forums Ditto manufacturers.
As for open meetings, Non Members will never be allowed to attend the AGM. Everything else that is organised by the NCCA is open to both Members and Non Members alike.
As for promoting the Association to the public, Derek Bolton is still very active in this area. Articles are frequently requested by various national journals and newspapers. Just this week an article has been written for a weekend newspaper about Spring Cleaning soft furnishings. The Association has advised for TV programmes, radio programmes too. A few weeks ago I was at my dentists, I picked up a better homes type of magazine and there was information supplied by and credited to the NCCA. This type of thing is happening every month.
As for an "Old Boys Club" being realistic, that will always be a view held by many. Because of the nature of the beast ie a trade association run by carpet cleaners for carpet cleaners, it will typically be the more senior members of our industry who have accumulated the necessary business and trade experiences and are then able to devote the time to put in the work. Although directors can claim expenses, it is not practical to account for every penny or pound. In reality, it usually costs directors money to be a Director of the NCCA. That's not a moan, just a reality. How many young/fledgling businesses can spare the amount of time required to become involved in our Association? And young familys are another demand on their time. So yes, as a rule of thumb the NCCA Board will be predominantly the more senior members of our industry.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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I agree Ken it is easy to take shots at the NCCA, but when the NCCA say they are going to do things and then it appears that nothing happens then of course non members and members will start to lad the bullets.
Transparancy has always been an issue and although the 'behind the scenes' speech comes and goes knowone apart from 'them in the know' see what is beng done and that is the bit that is infuriating and this is never address.
Perhaps as the link between NCCA and forums you could share the views with the directors and see if this could be resolved. I did once state about 6-7 years ago that there has never been better time to gain membership and for the NCCA to gather new quality members as these forums signify us coming together, I do hope that the NCCA will take these views on board because one day (like in the US and Australia) another association will start and will fragment the industry and we'll need to start again.
Shaun
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The NCCA is not a business. It is a trade association set up specifically to benefit its members. Like a lot of these kinds of organisations, if some people didn't put themselves forward for nomination and do a lot of unpaid work in their own time, they would collapse. The members own it and if they are not happy with the way things are then it is up to them to change it either by pressurising the directors or standing for office themselves. Sitting back and doing nowt like most of us do most of the time, whether its politics, unions, our business or trade bodies, means nowt happens.
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Shaun ............ you state you have saved a grand in 5 years but my membership has earned me more than that in 2 years i have been a member :o
Direct enquiries and via the office have earned me that but i know i have 2 regular clients, now as a result of being a member, the jobs i do for them earn twice your saving in a short weekend ;)
Membership form always arrives at a bad time but would not forgive myself for not staying in ;D
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Hi Guys
with total respect
you are moaning about yourself. its an association its only as good as its members. start putting in and you will get something from it.
have you promoted the NCCA to your customer base? do you tell prospects what it stands for? if members don't do these things then how can you expect people to know about it?
all you need do is explain it the text of your marketing showing prospects the value over using outsiders.
it would be interesting to find out how many members use the promotional material that the NCCA provides?
these guys that run the NCCA have their own business top run if every member just put in say 4 hours a month to promoting it then it profile would be much bigger.
as i said respect to your guys with negative comments nothing personal.
respect
ian harper
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Neil
As you have already gathered, I am a passionate believer in what the NCCA stands for.
I am no longer a Director of the NCCA but, as previously, I am, like some others, an "active" member.
Most of the Directors, like nearly all of our industry's manufacturers and suppliers, have decided not to contribute to internet forums. Both myself and Derek Bolton, and more recently Nick Johnston, whilst we broadly agree with this action, also believe that some presence is beneficial. We all realise though, that if you stand there as a figure head, you are just waiting to be shot down. Perhaps one reason why the barrage of non-believers will appear to "win" membership debates purely by force of numbers.
One of the major problems is that we (the Association) can have significant projects that can involve 2, 3 or more years work and effort. It would be improper to discuss these things publicly before completion, sometimes they can be delayed for a miriad of reasons and even be cancelled, plus there can be commercial confidentiallity issues too. A recent project was over two years old. It had to be scrapped and started again :-[ And not because of anything within direct control of the Association.
I am (quite rightly) still bound by a confidentiallity agreement not discuss Board issues with others. There have been in the past, especially in the early years of forums when some other directors participated, issues raised which a director refused point blank to answer because of the confidentiallity issue about a project in development. Incidents like this can cause so much ill will because some forum members can't understand why there's no answer forthcoming. Hence no Directors on forums Ditto manufacturers.
As for open meetings, Non Members will never be allowed to attend the AGM. Everything else that is organised by the NCCA is open to both Members and Non Members alike.
As for promoting the Association to the public, Derek Bolton is still very active in this area. Articles are frequently requested by various national journals and newspapers. Just this week an article has been written for a weekend newspaper about Spring Cleaning soft furnishings. The Association has advised for TV programmes, radio programmes too. A few weeks ago I was at my dentists, I picked up a better homes type of magazine and there was information supplied by and credited to the NCCA. This type of thing is happening every month.
As for an "Old Boys Club" being realistic, that will always be a view held by many. Because of the nature of the beast ie a trade association run by carpet cleaners for carpet cleaners, it will typically be the more senior members of our industry who have accumulated the necessary business and trade experiences and are then able to devote the time to put in the work. Although directors can claim expenses, it is not practical to account for every penny or pound. In reality, it usually costs directors money to be a Director of the NCCA. That's not a moan, just a reality. How many young/fledgling businesses can spare the amount of time required to become involved in our Association? And young familys are another demand on their time. So yes, as a rule of thumb the NCCA Board will be predominantly the more senior members of our industry.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
wish i had a pound for evey time i heard this from the ncca o.b.c. (joke) , people are putting there veiws forward and you still reel off the same old speach maybe if you took the blinkers off and looked about you see what people would like from the ncca weather you like it or not
at least it would be good for them to say " ok guys we will put a open day on whos comeing ????? and lets have your veiws" if people dont turn up then they have no reason to have a go at you (ncca) they would of had there chanse to put things across but they could nt be bothered which in turn makes them gob offs if you willing to sit on a fourm gobing off then you should be willing to travle and take timeout of your life to put your money where your mouth is ???? i would
i understand that it can be hard to put a personal views across and i know ken that your dieing to say stuff but cant because of what ever reason but surely the top diertor can or should have the guts to poke his head up out of the trench once in a while ??
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All those with something to say to the NCCA about the NCCA - praise or criticism - can always write to them.
So why dont you? - something concise - a few sentences - something constructive - straight to the point (but keeping it polite). [keeping points concise in my experiance with other bodies may mean it will be read more]
If that be done in the next few weeks (say before end of April) then maybe it will get mentioned at the next committee meeting.
If the NCCA is not coming to the forum (and I can understand the reasons put by Ken) - then the forum can go to it.
So what would YOU like to see the NCCA be doing in 2 years time, 5 years time, 15 years time.
but dont expect everything YOU want come to reality - sometimes its not practical nor possible
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Joe
The hole point is that this should be in the open like at a meeting where non members can attend and put their points across, Sending a letter wont do this because only the things the directors like will get aired.
Have the meeting and if no one turns up then they will no that their is no need for change. Some hurtfull things maybe said but it would get it out in the open rather than at a closed meeting that non mebers that would join if only a few little things where said
A lot of good people are not members with a lot of business experience so wont join because they dont like they way it is run.
All I here from members is that I get referalls so I am happy, is that what its about. Having a badge that gets me work. If thats the case the members are members for the wrong reason.
I get asked by customers on occasions why i am not a member, I explain how easy it is to join and that no pratical experience has to be obtained to become a member. Most are amazed about this fact alone. Membership in its present form misleads the public and does not act a as safe guard.
Can you imagine Corgi saying to members sit a paper exam, pass it and you can then be set on the world to change joe bloggs boiler. Crazy.
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Why does'nt the NCCA membership have a clause that guarantees that all incoming work is passed on to members in a strict rotation per area fashion then there will be no debate about certain people getting all the work as this will be in concrete and subject to contractual contest if not adhered to.
Get on some of these 60 minute makeover type shows and promote the industry/organisation (FREE OF CHARGE - HELLO)
Start lobbying parliament about regulating the use of carcinogenic cleaning chemicals (oh look, the industry is safer towards public, the NCCA's profile gets raised a bit more and these CC's must all be trained and tested to mett this requirement)
Admin appears to be first on the agenda with the organistion and what it forgets is that this a mechanism to support its goals not be integral to them
Nice and simple to implement. Do these things and I'll join (and I'm sure many would follow/return)
Pete
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bieng a member of the ncca gives me confidence in selling. when i joined i didnt expect to get many leads if any. customers dont know what the ncca means but the see that you are a member of an organised body, subconsiously this gets through to the customer.
i am all for the membership and i find it definetly gives me an edge over non members in my area, at least in my sales pitch and confidence.
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hope the ncca or some of its main men are reading and not looking thourh ncca tinted classes or are we banging our heads on the wall like so many have done for years befour us here today ?
ive looked at this post and from what i can see is alot of real good cleaners thats been in the game for years like me are just giveing there veiws not haveing ago just maybe getting things off there chest
some are right and some are wrong but i cant see any down right ncca haters posts yet and theres alot of passion comeing across and im sure it would do the ncca some good to get people on board like us , with passion for the game
however i could name quite afew from the past that have been pushed a side because there veiws did not conform bit like letter writeing who does that these days ??? we recover cars for three major insure. companys and its all done buy job numbers and t.x
letter write went out ten years ago
but as ken as said maybe people like myself remember the old days tomuch ??? maybe they have changed and are takeing things on board time will tell eh ??? im sure they will write a letter and tell us lolol (joke sorry couldnt help myself
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With the 5 years I was a member never got a job or enquiry but as stated previously I have one of teh founder members in my area and as I said before make of that what you will.
I think the real thing is that there is no moving forward, perhaps I should shunt them forward and become a member????
Shaun
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Shaun and Susan - what is it you want from the NCCA. How do you want it to move forward as stated??
Ken - Im no expert on the internet but is the NCCA able to improve its listing on the search engines ie. if Im looking for a cleaner in London the first name will be the NCCA or a NCCA member. If this is possible I think it would be a good incentive for members.
Mark
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Guys
The main problem is conflict of interest. (we can all see this conflict but nothing is said) until that is sorted we as members can change small things but the big things like tech training will have to wait.
the main purpose from my view of the NCCA is to promote professional carpet cleaning and this come in two ways first from training basic and advanced and second though promotion of this professional body to the public by its members and the NCCA. if you want them to have a higher profile then as with all things it costs money and where would that come from its membership? or where it should just like the Bics thought training.
The NCCA is not a job provider for its members. if you think that because you pay subs that you will get work in return then your wrong. its about ethics.
did you know that woodman had offers from both the NCCA and Alltec with the CCDO but he decided to do it himself. why because he value your opinions and that if he had help from them that it would be looked upon as unethical.
There are some big issue with the NCCA but it can and does work for its members. I sat on the fence for a long time but decided in the end its better to be on the inside and get some benefit than on the outside moaning about it.
if the members of any organisation let the top runs things withoutits memebrs getting involved then problems will happen. we live in democratic society that means we have a say.
mark. with respect you are an expert as some on this forum have told us how you have help them. so why aren't you helping the ncca site? do you know how much it cost for experts. and i know many that moan about the ncca have talent in many areas how many are putting themselves forward to teach others what they know?
as i said the ncca should have two objectives one promotion of us as professionals and second training us as professionals. just look at the training that's available outside the NCCA for us and you will see where the problem is.
Respect To everyone.
Ian Harper
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I will be sending my cheque off next week, I make sure my NCCA membership works for me, I readily offer information about the NCCA to my customers and future customers, I believe that mentioning NCCA/Trading Standards etc will win me work week in week out.
S
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I get referrals by being a member but i get the jobs once people see that my membership makes using me less of a risk than untrained, uninsured non member Joe Bloggs down the road ............ if Joe Bloggs is logged in then i apologise ;D
Not often asked if i have had training or if i am insured ..........and can i prove it ............ NCCA takes the guesswork out of it for customers.
I only really pay my membership as the blue in the logo does look nice on a white van ::)
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I thought you had a green van ::)
S
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I get referrals by being a member but i get the jobs once people see that my membership makes using me less of a risk than untrained, uninsured non member Joe Bloggs down the road ............ if Joe Bloggs is logged in then i apologise ;D
Not often asked if i have had training or if i am insured ..........and can i prove it ............ NCCA takes the guesswork out of it for customers.
I only really pay my membership as the blue in the logo does look nice on a white van ::)
All of Strakers customers join the NCCA after using him.........Not Calling Chris Again ;D
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We have been members of the NCCA for a number of years now.
It does annoy me when people criticize if your not happy with the NCCA then join in get involved go to the AGM then make your point. Don’t just moan from the outside.
Life is full of moaners who moan but don’t want to get involved
It only cost 235.00 and for what you get back it well worth it.
News link. Referrals we get work of people who have used us because we were members.
The point that the NCCA allow people in who have only been on a training course and have then passed the exam.
We all have to start somewhere what is better no training at all
At least these new cleaners have had 2 days training, also have to show they are insured.
They also have the phone numbers of the 2 trainers so if they do get stuck at least they can go for advice.
It’s better than getting advice of one of the forums where you could get the wrong advice all together.
Anybody can buy a machine and can then call themselves a carpets cleaner is it not better for these ones to get trained by the NCCA so having the support.
I have been to the AGM 3 times and have seen first hand the hard work that the directors of the NCCA do.
As for why the directors not coming on the Forums do you blame them they work hard for the membership to then get shot down in flames by critizing non member who think they know best.
Ray
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Ray the NCCA is not practical training but theory based, you just need to be able to pass the exam. Is that better than being experienced and not being a member.
NCCA should have membership levels based on practical exams and experience, which would make it much more of a group worth joining. This would be simple to do and would not cost them much and would make more of the membership have training
What percentage just do the course when they start and never go on any other training courses, I bet its over 80% thus making it an organisation that is just smoke and mirrors misleading the public. A major CC company near me that have 5 truckmounts & only has the owner who is qualified but are still using the NCCA to trick their customer base into thinking that they are all NCCA trained.
This was supposed to stop by making membership 1 to1 and it has'nt. How do they Police this, they dont, more talk and no action.
Have a Open meeting with members and non members and gets these things moving forward, why wont they do this.
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I have to agree with the previous comment, we have a company called Fibrecare in our town, who have the NCCA logo on their sites and vans with four or five operatives, with one guy being a member, surely they should send every c/c employee off to attend the two day course.
I think the ideal scenario would be and experienced c/c that is an NCCA member ;)
Regards
S
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Spencer hasn't the "One to One Rule" brought in last year stopped that sort of thing?
Mind you rules are pointless unless enforced and that rule i suspect would be hard to police.
Mark
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About 3 or 4 years ago I redid the NCCA 2 day course. On the 2nd day their was a certain amount of hands on use, how to use a wand etc.
This is where the workshops that the NCCA have been encouraging members to attend have helped new ones to pick up more of the basics.
To plug the next one it in Telford on April the 24th.
The rule is now one to one.
I am sure that the NCCA as they come aware of members who are not following that rule they will put it right.
Ray
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mark. with respect you are an expert as some on this forum have told us how you have help them. so why aren't you helping the ncca site? do you know how much it cost for experts. and i know many that moan about the ncca have talent in many areas how many are putting themselves forward to teach others what they know?
Hi Ian, I think you have mixed me up with the Irish Mark Roberts.
I'm not a member so even if I did attack and help the Ncca site I would gain nothing from it, I will say this though - it has huge untapped potential for various reasons.
Mark (uk version)
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Mark S,
I did speak to the NCCA about it, but I am not totally sure of the outcome, you are right about the policing bit though.
Regards
S
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Mark (Fosters) Roberts why aren't you a member?
Shaun
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Re the one to one rule - as I see the only way it can be effectively policed is by other members of the community (NCCA) blowing the whistle.
So if you know of someone flouting the rule - let the NCCA office know.
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If I were to start out tomorrow in this industry & on day 1 went on a 2 day NCCA course, then sat a little exam & qualified as a member, I could hardly regard myself as an expert in carpet cleaning. On day 4 with business booming I have to employ 4 staff to deal with work. Wouldn't it be in my own interest to train these employees up to the standard that the NCCA course had trained me to. Why would I want to send them to the NCCA?
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We all know business doesn't work in that way, the point is that people buy into the NCCA membership, hoping that the operator that visits them will have a minimum standard of workmanship/professionalism, if they were to know that a local company flying the NCCA flag had sent along someone that had two weeks experience, they wouldn't be too pleased, at least if they had attended the NCCA courses they would have a degree of confidence in the person.
I do also get work from the NCCA site or if someone has used the link to one of our sites.
S
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Let me quote a bit from the NCCA literature.
"The NCCA was formed ... in order to
1) Establish minimum, but professional standards within the carpet and upholstery cleaning industry.
2) Provide training for member, in order to achieve the aforementioned standard and to keep members abreast of developments such as new chemicals, equipment and new fibres and materials.
3)Ensure that members have adequate public liability insurance
4) Provide an advisory service to assist with problems and handle complaints smoothly and promptl, thereby ensuring that all members live up to the Associations motto "Service with Integrity"."
It refers to establish MINIMUM standards... does not say you are a expert carpet cleaner if you are accepted as a member does it ?
Re enquiries from members of the public
"The standard proceedure for giving out members details fairly is to select three member companies nearest to the enquirer, it is then up to th enquirer to define their appropriate choice".
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Nice acronym Gary ;D
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Looking at their web site 2008/2009-membership renewal will be sent on April 1st not one of the best dates on the calendar 2nd perhaps. ;D
Steve
Membership is a tax deducible so stay in. ;)
Gary
Don’t say that Not Calling Chris Again as I’m passing him on to one of my customers, as he came highly recommended green as grass and trained. :-X
Len
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If I were to start out tomorrow in this industry & on day 1 went on a 2 day NCCA course, then sat a little exam & qualified as a member, I could hardly regard myself as an expert in carpet cleaning. On day 4 with business booming I have to employ 4 staff to deal with work. Wouldn't it be in my own interest to train these employees up to the standard that the NCCA course had trained me to. Why would I want to send them to the NCCA?
I can understand why the NCCA bought in the one to one rule.
But if I owned a sizeable cleaning company I would want my own in House Training Scheme
There is pleanty of theriotical training programmes available on line,
The NCCA shouldthen monitor this training through their regional committes. I presume they have regional branches NVQs are administered this way..
Training is a big earner for NCCA that is the main reason why you have to do their in house course
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The One To One rule rule for NCCA Membership dictates that the business owner or a suitable senior person attends the Association's, or IICRC, training courses.
The employed technicians should have attended either the same courses or any other recognised industry training course eg Prochem, Chemspec etc. etc. and have proof of attendance.
Appreciating that some companies will have their own in-house training, this has been taken on board too. Any technician in this scenario will be required to sit what has been called a Knowledge Paper. The naming was quite deliberate as research has revealed that some technicians, for whatever reason, are not very good at written english. The title Exam or Test Paper could therefore be a little intimidating. Assictance with reading and writting the paper is permitted. This does happen too on the NCCA's more formal course.
The Association now has a system whereby all technicians have some form of training, understanding and knowledge.
I'm now bordering on the confidentiality issue as a past Director. The criteria for employed technicians will change in the future. It was felt that to impose a similar training criteria the same for principals and employed technicians was, at present, unworkable.
As for policing, there have already been examples dealt with. By necessity, policing requires a degree of trust, and members and others participation. So, if you suspect that any company is not abiding by the One to One rule, all you need to do is contact the NCCA Office who will check the membership records.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Ken
On the tec side I think that is fair enough
I would still like to se reconition of training given by Your associate members .
as often the training is over a longer period than NCCA training .
As Joe said the aim is that members have a minimum standard I think all traing courses give you that.
But Hay its not going to change
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Ian
Any organisation providing genric, as opposed to branded, training will be considered for suitability for NCCA Membership qualification.
Steps have been made in the branded direction though with, as I stated above, accepting branded training courses as being suitable for a technicians within the One To One Rule.
The PAS 86 could well help in this area too.
The branding issue is a major concern though. At present, ALL NCCA Associates are welcomed to display there wares at NCCA training courses, and several do. Their equipment is often used to demonstrate procedures eg using A WAND with A RINSE/EXTRACTION machine. It is not demonstrated as a Glidemaster wand, for example, with a Prochem Steampro or whatever machine is available.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Always made more back from referrals, contracts with national companies etc than the membership costs, So well happy to pay £200 and get back over 500 each and everry year, plus the stuff ncca offers, but then I have been lucky cos not member ncca guys in Norfolk 8)
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Karl
In this part of Norfolk last time I looked there was about 7.
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By reading not only this thread but many on all forums over the years, it is clear to see that the majority of members & ex members are not happy with the way things ever have been at the NCCA.
I can see what some have said regarding becoming a member. Its like this in real terms as far as i can see.....(eg)...go to the NCCA.....sit an exam.....you pass the exam.....you are now a qulified Carpet Cleaner. To become a REAL PROFESSIONAL you DO NOT have to sit an exam. Its all about going into the field, do hands on work, listen to respected Carpet Cleaners, have the right equipments & chemicals for each & every job you do, learn from the mistakes of others.....the list goes on however i have said (so to have many others) that its as if you can have no real hands on experience but sit the NCCA exam & they class you as a professional.
I would sooner tell ANY customer that i have 15 years of experience using some of the best equipment / chemicals available and so on rather than tell them im NCCA approved so that means im a pro even though ive only been in the trade 1 week. Ok, i may have gone over the top on this eg but you surely get the general idea!
Many RESPECTED carpet cleaners have left the NCCA over the years, Shaun Ashmore is one of them. To have someone of his experience, ability, professionalism and success to leave the NCCA surely makes one wonder what is the point in been a member.
Richie.
Richie.
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Always made more back from referrals, contracts with national companies etc than the membership costs, So well happy to pay £200 and get back over 500 each and everry year, plus the stuff ncca offers, but then I have been lucky cos not member ncca guys in Norfolk 8)
Ditto and there are a few Ncca members in my area.
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I dont think anyone is saying sit an exam ,pass it and your a professional carpet cleaner. But you have got to start somewhere and surely thats a start , youve got a bit of theory .
Point in question a collegue of mine is a window cleaner who now wants to branch into carpets.He has done the ncca course and passed the exam but has never touched a carpet , hasnt even got any equipment. I have offered to mentor him for a while when he gets going to build up confidence and try to put the theory into practice in the real world.
This must be a wiser way to do it rather than just buy a machine and jump in.
I think the problem arises when someone who has been in the business for a number of years ways up the pros & cons .why should they have to take courses etc maybe a bit of pride . Perhaps they might learn something but they will definately have something to give and surely that in itself is a good thing.
Mike
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I agree with what Mike has just said.
NCCA lists
"The NCCA was formed ... in order to
1) Establish minimum, but professional standards within the carpet and upholstery cleaning industry."
as one of its objectives - notice it doesnt say that once you pass the exam you are a fully competent carpet cleaner - like some on here seem to make out it is saying.
When I was on the course approx half had no experiance and some of those had no machine - so what a responsible attitude for them to take.
Of the other hals - various years of experiance from 2 all the way to 20+ years ... and if I remember rightly that person was there so he could become a member again - takes a bit of humility to do that and say so in a class of 24.
I am sure NCCA could be organised differently and have other aims - but I reckon if NCCA changed tomorrow and kept the annual fee to £200 plus vat, there would still be some on here that wouldnt join, even tho they are voicing there opinion now.
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Opinion is what Forums thrive on as long as it's done in the right manner.
I think you'll find that there isn't anyone knocking 3 bells out of the NCCA (I can remember a thread like that a few years ago) but looking after present members is just like looking after present customers you do have to show them that you are doing 'something' for their money.
Shaun
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why do people think the ncca is just about doing training and then you become a great cc. they is more to offer.
and loads of people have left, shaun being one, and the other loads.
You will never please all the people all the time.
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Another example of the NCCA short comings received newslink today to find out we have a new president ??? Who votes,who decides, same as Nick Johnston a director a lot of jobs for the boys or ladies as our new president is a lady.
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Most members will have read about our new President last month Steve. Did you not receive your March issue?
As for who elects the President, the nomination comes from the Board of Directors and voted for at AGM by the membership.
New directors come, naturally, from the existing members. Any member who shares our enthusiasm for both the Association and our industry can become involved. So Steve, if you would like to be considered for the board, why don't you ring the NCCA office and ask if there's anything you could volunteer for. What about organising a workshop in your area? Or a factory visit? Show that you have something to offer the Association, get involved. Do you have a skill or training that is of value?
Initially, newbies to the board will be Co Opted Directors. Once they, and the rest of the Board, have found that they can work well together, they will be offerd a position when one becomes available. That's what happened for me. Likewise Nick Johnston who is now Financial Director (he's from a banking background). The same sort of progress will almost certainly be the case too for new Co Opted Director Bob Jennings.
So Steve your reference to "...a lot of jobs for the boys or ladies..." is certainly true. You have to prove yourself as a valued and trusted Board Member and willing to take on the role of President in order to be nominated. As far as I am aware, a President, or other Board position, will NEVER be offered directly to a member. The route is 1) Member, 2) Co Opted Director, 3) Board Member 4) President. I will repeat. All Presidents (and Board Members) are voted in by the membership at AGM.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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But Ken in a lot other associations the members decide who the nominies are that going to be elected to the board.
Whats members are going to vote for or against a person when their has only been 1 person put up for that position. How many of the boards nomonies have not been elected, Jobs for the Boys and Girls I think.
I know of one chap near me who is on your board and he is not the most helpful of directors to say the least. Choc teapot comes to mind.
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Neil
If any member wants to change the way that any board member or the President is elected, all they have to do is propose a motion at AGM.
The Board are obliged to carry out any motion voted for.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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But Ken in a lot other associations the members decide who the nominies are that going to be elected to the board.
Whats members are going to vote for or against a person when their has only been 1 person put up for that position. How many of the boards nomonies have not been elected, Jobs for the Boys and Girls I think.
I know of one chap near me who is on your board and he is not the most helpful of directors to say the least. Choc teapot comes to mind.
Nail on the head.Even the fsb send out ballot papers for the members to vote even if you don't know them.The agm's are not nornally well attended last one I was at more board members than members attended.
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Hi Guys
Ken
"Initially, newbies to the board will be Co Opted Directors. Once they, and the rest of the Board, have found that they can work well together, they will be offerd a position when one becomes available. That's what happened for me. Likewise Nick Johnston who is now Financial Director (he's from a banking background). The same sort of progress will almost certainly be the case too for new Co Opted Director Bob Jennings'
Are you saying that to join the board you have to be invited by current board members ?
Surely a trade Organisation should have directors elected by the members.
Cheers
Doug
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Can of worms
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i am saying northing due to
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/whitevangirl/ist2_298677_can_o_worms.jpg)
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Doug
No I'm not. You don't have to be approached by Board members. It can happen that way though if someone with a talent is spotted.
And if you re read the end of my earlier post (05.27pm), you will see in my last sentence: "All Presidents (and Board Members) are voted in by the membership at AGM."
Speaking for myself, The board did not approach me. I approached Pawlo quite a few years ago and offered my services. I served as a Co-Opted Direrctor for a while and helped out where I could. I organised the inaugral Technical Roadshow with Derek Bolton, helped with setting up/down the stand and manning it at the NEC, I attended Board Meetings, listened alot, made contributions too. I was then asked if I would consider the role of Membership Director if I was nominated. It was put to the vote at AGM and I was elected to the board by the membership.
IMO, the Co-Opted Director route is a good way to introduce candidates to the board. Not long ago, we had a new, talented co-opted member who attended a few board meetings. For various reasons he couldn't make it work for himself so withdrew.
Because of various legal obligations, Directorship is not something to be entered into lightly. For example, although I have now left the board, I still have certain legal responsibilities and obligations for the next SEVEN years.
Do any NCCA Members reading this want to be considered for the board? Just let yourself be known. It's voluntary, unpaid, will probably actually cost you for the priviledge, will demand quite a bit of time and commitment, distrupts your working day with phone calls from all and sundry. There are quite a few emails every day so good keyboard skills are an advantage. It is often necessary to be diplomatic, at other times confrontational. Oh, you must be thick skinned too ;)
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Fair play to you Ken i think you guys do a great job ;) Membership certainly works for me and many higher end custys are aware of the NCCA.
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I would like to echo Marks last post, any time I have needed advise or help people like Ken Wainwright,Paul Pear,Derek Bolton have always helped without hesitating. Never saying call back latter I'am working. I have been a member for the since 1997 and I can count on one hand the jobs I've received as a direct result of being a member. The reason for staying as a member is not what I take out of the association but knowing the the advise is accurate and people judge me as a professional.
''Theres no alternative.''
David Ware
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Ken
What about the website. Can it be improved to ensure its at the top of search engines?
Mark
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Well I have sat and read all the comments with mixed feelings, many of you know my views on what or what not the association stands for. When Paul Pearce said to me one night in a crowded bar at one of the NCCA meetings whilst vigorously shaking my hand he said “to make thinks work you have to be part of the team”.
And I’m sorry to say after reading many of the comments tonight there seems to be a lot of Me! Me! In the comments. I was always taught that there was no “I” in team!
You have got to ask the question, why do people join the NCCA, is it for them or is it to help our industry.
Many on this forum who go way beyond the call are not members of the NCCA I’m not going to name names you all know who they are. They do it for one purpose and one purpose alone and that is to help others and hopefully raise standards in our industry. Sadly I was unable to attend this year’s day out at Goodyear’s Pavilion from what I could see it was a well spend day for many that attended. It’s nice to see how these events have gained popularity from the early days when Glyn Waterworth , Lee Gundry and me included use to generate mayhem in the name of a Sunny Day Out.
What puzzles me is there was no mention of a stand for the NCCA there, what an opportunity there was to recruit more members, after all the place was bursting with carpet cleaner!
I have been in the industry longer than I can remember and nothing has changed only the machinery.
Maybe it is time the NCCA listened to the many voices that aren’t members instead of deciding what this industry needs.
There now I’ve had my rant
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Dave,
I think the NCCA and CCDO stand for 2 different things, NCCA is run like a golf Club, lots of members without any say even though they have a vote on things that only the management want to happen. I think there is great opertunity for the CCDO to do things that the NCCA should be doing,
Working with Carpet manufatures to issue a cleaning standard for all carpets sold to the customers. Should be doing this as as Trade Body. why not? Warranty void if carpets not cleaned yearly.
Gaining the management of insurance work from insurance companies that dont even no a Trade body is around.
Why is their no Trade logo on Furniture sold in this country pushing people in the direction of a NCCA member via a central number, If they could get figures on how much this will cost I am sure the membership would pay for this because the work they would get would more than pay for the extra cost.
I here the NCCA say 'we are not here to get people work, we are here for the members and to inform the public about our standards'. Whats the point if nobody outside a small group no who you are. How many years has the NCCA been going and they are lucky if 2% of people that get their carpets cleaned no who they are. Why is this, what have the NCCA been doing all these years?
I think the NCCA needs to have a total rethink about its direction and the first thing they should do is talk to people within the CCDO about what things they should be doing to make the NCCA a force to be recound with, some of these guys have amazing insight into the business that should be tapped into, rather than a directors club that it is today.
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Hi Guys
Neil's Golf Club analogy is right on the money, my local Con club runs on the same basis, people are invited to be co-opted and then when elections are held they are known and election becomes a near cert.
This allows the ruling clique to have their mates on the committee and as most of them are mates of mine I could be co-opted tommorow if I wanted.
The downside is that new people are vetted to see that they fit in, the status quo is protected and everything carries on as usual.
The NCCA will not change if the type of people don't change but various restrictive practices, such as not allowing me and others to join because they did their training years ago, in my case 1982, Ron Tilley at Prochem.
I raised all this publicly and privately with the NCCA some years ago but nothing was done, so I don't normally comment on their matters as they are largely irrelevant to me.
As I have staed on several occaisions the rise of the internet is inexorable and a new organisation will happen if the NCCA does not move into the 21st century.
As for Ken , I have a lot of respect for him and he is the one high profile member who has the guts to come on the forum and this is in no way meant as any attack on him, personally.
I feel it is a real shame that the industry cannot pull together but it needs forward thinking , not bunker mentalities.
Off to work,
Cheers
Doug
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Dave the NCCA works for me but i do see the larger team picture.
On every quote i give out an Ncca leaflet and tell the custy if they do not choose my company then please make sure who they do pick are NCCA member.
I explain that at least they will have the security of knowing the company is fully insured and have at least minimum training.
So in this way i feel i am promoting the organization as a whole and obviously my own company.
I am aware there are many great cleaners who are not members but believe i for one should support our industry's trade association.
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Ken
Whilst I appreiate your reply but your statement about
"So Steve your reference to "...a lot of jobs for the boys or ladies..." is certainly true. You have to prove yourself as a valued and trusted Board Member and willing to take on the role of President in order to be nominated. As far as I am aware, a President, or other Board position, will NEVER be offered directly to a member. The route is 1) Member, 2) Co Opted Director, 3) Board Member 4) President. I will repeat. All Presidents (and Board Members) are voted in by the membership at AGM."
Still never heard of June Frankum. Having met most of the old boys at some stage of my 5 year membership yet never ever heard of her.As Doug states for the NCCA needs to move into the 21st century to progress.
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Im not a fan of NCCA as ive said before, but I have got to applaud Ken and in the past Derek as they put a lot of time,effort and energy in something they believe in.
This is the main point, wheather you want to be a member or not, thats your own choice. Some organisations suit some and not others, but what nobody can knock is the focus and effort people like Ken do day in day out FREE just for the cause and to help us all out.
Ken hope this thread does not knock down your confinence in any way regarding us none members, I for one have been very glad of your contribution and help over the years, and please pass the sam on to Derek.
My rant over :)
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Perhaps i may forgive myself for not rejoining ::)
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:o I thought you were in love with the NCCA? is this now divorce?
Shaun
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I keep reading how you should keep pushing the NCCA logo and i think its finally worked,custy last week had heard of NCCA first one ever ;D.
If i had a pound for ooooooooooo is it like CORGI
Roy
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Shaun, Each year i have to search for insurance docs and end up sending off for copy ............ it never arrived and i forgot to chase it up!!! I got back this morning from 25 day jaunt to Algarve and had 2 letters from NCCA ....... 1 was to remind me again that renewal was outstanding and 2nd was to tell me my membership was cancelled :o
Cannot be arsed to to sort it out now as worn out from 1550 drive so easier to remove NCCA logo from websites ::)
Ethical junction logo is same dimensions so may get Mark to display that ..........seems more people recognise that and definitely more people searching for it lately ;)
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I take it you are a sickeningly bronze colour now Chris after nearly a month in the sun ;D
Steve
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Ever so slightly ;)
[attachment deleted by admin]
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ps .............. was taken very late on last night after 1 or 2 SuperBock's ;) ;D ::)
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You should post that pic on your website - may attract a whole new class of client ;D
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Well used straw hat shows my commitment to recycling ;D