Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Village Gleam on March 30, 2008, 04:31:58 pm
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Obviously this topic heading is sparked By Ian Lancaster's windex talk. the text of which window washers has put up for download. Assuming people are interested enought to have read this first before commenting, I would ask.
Assume you wanted to do this, you biult your own work up and were ready in terms of operation and systems.
1. How much would the paper work cost?
2. What ballpark figure should the buy-in and the royalty be set at?
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It's common practice to use standard contracts in any sort of legal arrangement. When you buy a house for instance, the contracts you exhcange are a normal standard law society contract. You could write your own and it would be legal, you could get your solicitor to write one and that would still be legal. But it means a lot of aggro for the other side who then have to check it. The standard law society are accepted and probably not even read or checked. However, you ,me , and everyone else has to pay a copyrite fee on using these forms which is quite hefty, but cheaper than having to scrutinise every line for hours.
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It's common practice to use standard contracts in any sort of legal arrangement. When you buy a house for instance, the contracts you exhcange are a normal standard law society contract. You could write your own and it would be legal, you could get your solicitor to write one and that would still be legal. But it means a lot of aggro for the other side who then have to check it. The standard law society are accepted and probably not even read or checked. However, you ,me , and everyone else has to pay a copyrite fee on using these forms which is quite hefty, but cheaper than having to scrutinise every line for hours.
there are companies out there going over contract as getting clients money back as contracts are illegal, they call me all the time and I am talking the well known compnaies that you and I and most people on here would deal with, this part to me is a very big hurdle.
Ian
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Thanks for that Ian that was a good favour, I love things like that. Recently I have read James Dysons (400 mill) book and Gordon Ramsey (50mill), both were superb.
On the contract thing if both parties want it to work and the franchisor is onto a good thing, providing you keep it small scale it should be manageable. Personally I would not want that high a start up fee, but would want a serious candidate of a high calibre.
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Thanks for that Ian that was a good favour, I love things like that. Recently I have read James Dysons (400 mill) book and Gordon Ramsey (50mill), both were superb.
On the contract thing if both parties want it to work and the franchisor is onto a good thing, providing you keep it small scale it should be manageable. Personally I would not want that high a start up fee, but would want a serious candidate of a high calibre.
if the product is a good one the start up fee is cheap for the benifits it can bring to the as you say high calibre candidate, and having a high start up fee will normally stop the thinkers and attract the do'ers in life.
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Obviously this topic heading is sparked By Ian Lancaster's windex talk. the text of which window washers has put up for download. Assuming people are interested enought to have read this first before commenting, I would ask.
Assume you wanted to do this, you biult your own work up and were ready in terms of operation and systems.
1. How much would the paper work cost?
2. What ballpark figure should the buy-in and the royalty be set at?
2) The figure should be high enough so that there is serious comitment to the business, however i see the real value, apart from coporate branding, in providing work for the franchisee. Providing the franchisee with good paying work means that they are able to afford to pay a reasonable royalty figure, and pay back the money you have leant them to set up as a franshisee.
What the figure should be IMO is a figure which leaves them with £30 an hour cleaning.
Mark
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Where are you based Mr Sol?
Mark
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If we start going down the franchising route as a forum then I am going to leave. Its a rip off , first , last and always. I hate franchises, I saw so much grief and pain in my previous life/ job that I will never support any discussion of franchising.
Thats my view and its not negotiable.
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If we start going down the franchising route as a forum then I am going to leave. Its a rip off , first , last and always. I hate franchises, I saw so much grief and pain in my previous life/ job that I will never support any discussion of franchising.
Thats my view and its not negotiable.
thats fair enough it is your view, but many others are interested in it. maybe dont read post that say fanchising as the title ;)
you have the choice what and what not to read, why leave ::)
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No not toys in pram, I worked for Kodak for 24 years, in that time I saw people lose their houses, their life savings and their marriages because of contracts they had signed with franchise companies.
They were, for the most part, not clued up business people but vunerable and gullable people who believed what they were being told and they were exploited and robbed.
I was not, and Kodak was not directly involved but we stood by and saw it all happen, it was not pretty. These companies were set up , in my opinion to rob and steal from the vunerable.
There was no real expectation that the business plan would roll out in a sucessful way because the only people tempted by the scheme in the first place were those who were not gifted with the talents to succeed.
I mean what I say, I will not be part of any forum that supports franchising. Sorry
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No not toys in pram, I worked for Kodak for 24 years, in that time I saw people lose their houses, their life savings and their marriages because of contracts they had signed with franchise companies.
They were, for the most part, not clued up business people but vunerable and gullable people who believed what they were being told and they were exploited and robbed.
I was not, and Kodak was not directly involved but we stood by and saw it all happen, it was not pretty. These companies were set up , in my opinion to rob and steal from the vunerable.
There was no real expectation that the business plan would roll out in a sucessful way because the only people tempted by the scheme in the first place were those who were not gifted with the talents to succeed.
I mean what I say, I will not be part of any forum that supports franchising. Sorry
Vince, not all go out to rob people some work very well and really do change other lifes for the better, you are have you reasons from one compnay that IMO did not have forsite into the digital world, I do feel for these people but casting your ciew on every franchise is wrong IMO do you take your kids to Macdonalds or burger king? my point is there are not all bad, and agin I say you dont have to read it, I am not trying to upset you in anyway as this is clearly a sore point for you, but things change and as I said before many find this interesting.
I never saw in the terms of use on the forum that you cannot talk about this topics and it is an open forum, not everyone will liek the topics but it you can choose not to read it.
Ian
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I know very little about franchising, very little about anything according to some on here, but surely the name has to have been a well known recognisable brand for some time to make it attractive to a franchisee and customers alike?
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I know very little about franchising, very little about anything according to some on here, but surely the name has to have been a well known recognisable brand for some time to make it attractive to a franchisee and customers alike?
well known is good thing, but not alway does this happen or need to start off, a good brand name is always a plus point and will help there is a key to make this happen and Ionics do very well with one of the things they do like it or not.
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Mr Sol, here's one (don't think they have electric reels though)
http://www.staycleanwindows.co.uk/wfp/franchising-3.html
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Mr Sol, here's one (don't think they have electric reels though)
http://www.staycleanwindows.co.uk/wfp/franchising-3.html
I so what someone cleaning windows in bristol to get an area on my site
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I have in fact looked into franchising briefly, but for me i couldn't see the point in this industry. You part with say £15000 then you still need to supply the van and then find the work i believe. On top of that there are the royalties.
Reading quickly i think Ian Lancaster has done something similar by providing the work and his name. Good luck to him, well done.
However the way i see it with say stayclean, the cards are stacked very heavily in their favour as opposed to the franchisee's.
ps. you will gather i looked at it from the viewpoint of a franchisee and not of the view of providing a franchise. :)
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No not toys in pram, I worked for Kodak for 24 years, in that time I saw people lose their houses, their life savings and their marriages because of contracts they had signed with franchise companies.
They were, for the most part, not clued up business people but vunerable and gullable people who believed what they were being told and they were exploited and robbed.
I was not, and Kodak was not directly involved but we stood by and saw it all happen, it was not pretty. These companies were set up , in my opinion to rob and steal from the vunerable.
There was no real expectation that the business plan would roll out in a sucessful way because the only people tempted by the scheme in the first place were those who were not gifted with the talents to succeed.
I mean what I say, I will not be part of any forum that supports franchising. Sorry
Vince a forum doesn't support anything, it is a discussion board.
Many bad experiences out there and as always in business buyer beware. Franchising has many benifits both to the franchisor and the franchisee but it will only suit the minority. I am all for the discussion of franchising even though I may not be in favour of it in some cases.
Normally the problems that arise with franchises are either the franchisor over promising or the franchisee expecting to get it easy. A franchise is not a licence not to work, all businesses take work.
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If we start going down the franchising route as a forum then I am going to leave. Its a rip off , first , last and always. I hate franchises, I saw so much grief and pain in my previous life/ job that I will never support any discussion of franchising.
Thats my view and its not negotiable.
Hi Vince,
I think I am uniquely situated to comment on your views. I am one of those who was "ripped off" by a franchisor - I bought a franchise which, although it was workable, it didn't do what the franchisor promised me it would.
I walked away from a franchise that cost me £15,000
When I started my own franchise, I made sure that I didn't make any promises I couldn't keep. If you doubt me, then e-mail me and I'll give you contact details for my franchisees, you can ask them yourself if they've been ripped off. If I tell you that my latest one has been with me full time since February and already he has £3,200 of work, and is scheduled to have £4,000/month by the end of April then I challenge you to show how I've ripped him off.
We're not all tarred with the same brush ;)
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Ian i know knothung about franchising so excuse me, do you other them work for there money or just advise and a guide to how you have done what you have done??
Or am i totally wrong ;D
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DJW you have worked for a year and biult your own very good business, but you could have been guaranteed £600 per week from day one. (and then rising). The question I am asking is what fee is reasonable for that, and what ongoing royalty should you be paying for that?
Bear in mind that I/the franchisor guarantees to buy the franchise back off you should you wish to exit, or assist with a sale. So basically you get your money back any way, and if you increase the customer base you get more back (under the system we are talking about).
All you would have to do DJW is clean windows, you get advice on bank account and payment methods. You would be using a hot system and an electric reel and have proper marketing with lots of con cleans and advertised offers to draw people in (if it was my franchise) and believe me DJW you would fly. You have no idea.(your pricing is okay by the way).
Next, correct me if I am wrong but this whole premise is based not just on any franchise, but on Jim Perrimans Jims Mowing. The similarities between this industry and window cleaning are startling. The thing is DJW the whole thing is based on a set of values and honesty and integrity. Jim is a christian, a mormon in fact, and he takes these values very seriously. Honesty is not something that you can fake and I'm sure that this is one of many things that Ian has going for him.
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All i'm saying is that a franchisee might not go for" Mr Sols hot slosh system" if it's not a recognised brand name - franchises are an awful lot of money for very little in some cases. If you want to go into franchising then good luck it's obviously worked out well for Ian and if you have an excess of work and plenty of backing then i'm sure you will suceed.
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There are many bad franchises, but also many good ones don't tar them all with the same brush. How often have you heard the stereotype about the cowboy window cleaner, are all window cleaners cowboys?
No they are not and all franchises arn't bad either.
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Yet again DJW i don't think you have 'clicked' what we are talking about.
From the the threads that talk about employing it's clear that it's not all plain sailing. Staff and adminstration are a nightmare and can be overwhelming. There is the Vat threshold, and there is a period of growth where untill you emerge the other side you actually earn less than you did working on your own. Many have done it, gone back, and say never again.
Franchising is a different approach to this same problem, and the template we are talking about is that of Jims Mowing. To quote Jim it is very important that the franchisee is succesfull, and for this reason not everyone is suitable. To quote Jim again the most cost effective way of mowing(cleaning windows) is by a lone operater who his commited to what he is doing.
By keeping things small scale (not national) and carefull selection of those likely to succeed there is no reason at all why this could not work.
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Yet again DJW i don't think you have 'clicked' what we are talking about.
From the the threads that talk about employing it's clear that it's not all plain sailing. Staff and adminstration are a nightmare and can be overwhelming. There is the Vat threshold, and there is a period of growth where untill you emerge the other side you actually earn less than you did working on your own. Many have done it, gone back, and say never again.
Franchising is a different approach to this same problem, and the template we are talking about is that of Jims Mowing. To quote Jim it is very important that the franchisee is succesfull, and for this reason not everyone is suitable. To quote Jim again the most cost effective way of mowing(cleaning windows) is by a lone operater who his commited to what he is doing.
By keeping things small scale (not national) and carefull selection of those likely to succeed there is no reason at all why this could not work.
Agree
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Yet again you can't answer without an attack on me. Of course I've clicked on what you are wanting to do, you want to provide a franchise in the same way as Ian Lancaster has done. And i said good luck to you i'm not having a pop at you so i will repeat it again GOOD LUCK.
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Yet again you can't answer without an attack on me. Of course I've clicked on what you are wanting to do, you want to provide a franchise in the same way as Ian Lancaster has done. And i said good luck to you i'm not having a pop at you so i will repeat it again GOOD LUCK.
I am guessing that was not aimed at me
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No not you Ian. ;)
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If your business hasnt reached vat level , then that isnt a good business model for potential franchisee's.
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If your business hasnt reached vat level , then that isnt a good business model for potential franchisee's.
why ? quite a few people would like to earn way over 50k a year, some business's are spilt to different areas to avoid VAT because to the end user (domestic it cost them extra money) it is cost not needed.
So IMO that point is not valid
Ian
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As Ian Lancaster says he had work coming out of his ears, so first off you need stacks of work to pass on to your franchisee and still have enough for yourself, you also need a well established and respected name to attract that person too, after all he's coming to you for work with his own kit and will be trading under your name and paying you royalties one way or another.
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It is a very valid point.
50k turnover isnt 50k profit
I wouldnt buy into a franchise if it couldnt be shown to turn over way more than vat level, dont forget you have to pay a percentage fee to the franchisor ar well.
If people are trying to avoid vat , then they are saying to themselves , this is it , this is the limit.
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no one wants to read or add to a topic that has too much bickering. ;)
Dave we are talking about the idea,kicking it around that's all,not saying one of us is more suitable than the other.
Jim says that most employers( mowing) have large commercial contracts and do not have many domestic customers- evan though domestic customers are vastly more profitable. The reason for this is it is very hard to supervise employees going from house to house mowing lawns. I believe this to be pretty much true in window cleaning.
Therefore the franchise is a superior business model to direct employment.
About your vat point, how many years have you been going? and how many years have you been VAT registered? My point being that for many years you probably weren't Vat registered, but now that you are you are implying anyone who is not is a failure in some way.
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It is a very valid point.
50k turnover isnt 50k profit
I wouldnt buy into a franchise if it couldnt be shown to turn over way more than vat level, dont forget you have to pay a percentage fee to the franchisor ar well.
If people are trying to avoid vat , then they are saying to themselves , this is it , this is the limit.
Dave you know aswell as me it is more than 50k, and you would not buy a franchise for window cleaning as you are doing ok for your self, as am I, the post is about franchising, and if I did not have a good business and I was thinking of window cleaning earning 50k or more would well interest me, thats more than 2x the national norm.
as mr sol says bickering in a post is not that good so I will not post comments about this anymore as I want this post to stay alive.
I am always option to new options and thoughts from anyone, I only take on board what I feel are right for me, as will anyone.
Ian
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Its an ideal business for franchise, small independent operators, the chance to earn a very good income( the income level in relation to the buy in costs, its never going to earn the money a Mc D's does.
Dont agree that you need a household name, just good branding./ Give the franchisee a chance to earn a very good living, doing it himself, I dont think you want them to go down the employment route themselves, one man operators are ideal.
Hot is a very good selling point too, it makes sense to a prospective franchisee.
Mark
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Davo, don't forget the franchisee will have to provide his own van under Ians terms, it is not provided by the franchise operator as in other franchises.
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I also know someone that does this and all he does is constantly quote and get work,he has about 7 vans and by this i mean 7 independent operaters.
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Somebody brought vat up before me.
I will bow out now.
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Let's do some numbers on seven vans. Assume they earn £850 pw for 46 wks a year. (not unreasonable) this is 39k turnover.
The fact that they may fiddle over and above this and do cons cleans etc without saying is built into the system. Jim says that he didn't want to have the power to look at their books.
So 39 times 7 is 273k. A royalty of 15% on this equals 41k per annum.
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Has anyone got a copy of jims book they could send me ?
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How many properties would seven vans service - three to four thousand?
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Davo, don't forget the franchisee will have to provide his own van under Ians terms, it is not provided by the franchise operator as in other franchises.
Whats that got to do with anything ?
Noone has mentioned a price yet.
Mark
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Let's do some numbers on seven vans. Assume they earn £850 pw for 46 wks a year. (not unreasonable) this is 39k turnover.
The fact that they may fiddle over and above this and do cons cleans etc without saying is built into the system. Jim says that he didn't want to have the power to look at their books.
So 39 times 7 is 273k. A royalty of 15% on this equals 41k per annum.
They do far far more than that,there is 2 in a van in a few of them and they get between 7-£1000 a week.They do big work and as for your £40k a year your well off,i reckon more 2.5k a week for running the business and getting the work more like,we are talking 7 vans or so.
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Let's do some numbers on seven vans. Assume they earn £850 pw for 46 wks a year. (not unreasonable) this is 39k turnover.
The fact that they may fiddle over and above this and do cons cleans etc without saying is built into the system. Jim says that he didn't want to have the power to look at their books.
So 39 times 7 is 273k. A royalty of 15% on this equals 41k per annum.
All that hassle for £41k per annum??? Hardly sounds worth it???
Andy
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Davo, don't forget the franchisee will have to provide his own van under Ians terms, it is not provided by the franchise operator as in other franchises.
Whats that got to do with anything
Mark
Because if Mr Sol wanted to franchise his own brand name of thermoclean or whatever then the franchisee will have to have the same set up and provide a hot water system himself in order to trade under that branding.
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Davo, don't forget the franchisee will have to provide his own van under Ians terms, it is not provided by the franchise operator as in other franchises.
Whats that got to do with anything
Mark
Because if Mr Sol wanted to franchise his own brand name of thermoclean or whatever then the franchisee will have to have the same set up and provide a hot water system himself in order to trade under that branding.
Yes of course they would its a franchise. If its included in the cost of a frachise the franchisee is still paying for it. I think the idea of the post is to discuss whether a franchise business would work with window cleaning.
Value isnt really an issue because there is no price or product to make any judgement as to its worth.
Mark
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Has anyone got a copy of jims book they could send me ?
Dave,
Check your e-mail ;)
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What is Franchising? In it's purest form it is the right to operate under licence a business that uses the brand, image, product and proceedures and experience of another sucessful business.
So if you are trying to figure out if franchising will work in window cleaning then you must look at the original reasons for buying a franchise.
1. Is it sucessful.
2. Is it branded.
3. has it got good products and proceedures.
4. Is it experienced.
5. Will it assist you the franchisee to achieve your goals.
The big question when ever franchising is discussed on here seems to be about price, It is worht what someone will pay. Any franchise ahs tyre kickers who look but don't buy, so what, You only want one franchisee at a time.
In Ians case the first 4 of the points above appear to be given. Point 5 can only be answered be the franchisee.
Do not fool yourselves franchising will have a big say in who, how and how much in window cleaning in the U.K. in the not too distant future.
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Davo, don't forget the franchisee will have to provide his own van under Ians terms, it is not provided by the franchise operator as in other franchises.
Not true.
If the franchise "provides" a van, it will be on a lease arrangement, and the franchisee will have to pay it (initial deposit and monthly payment)
If it's provided outright, the cost will be part of the initial franchise fee, making it VERY expensive.
In both cases it will be a new van. I don't want to involve my franchisees in huge expenses, so my agreement allows them to use any suitable van, provided it is legal, clean and tidy. The newest is an 05 Doblo, and the oldest a "P" reg Transit.
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Davo, don't forget the franchisee will have to provide his own van under Ians terms, it is not provided by the franchise operator as in other franchises.
Not true.
If the franchise "provides" a van, it will be on a lease arrangement, and the franchisee will have to pay it (initial deposit and monthly payment)
If it's provided outright, the cost will be part of the initial franchise fee, making it VERY expensive.
In both cases it will be a new van. I don't want to involve my franchisees in huge expenses, so my agreement allows them to use any suitable van, provided it is legal, clean and tidy. The newest is an 05 Doblo, and the oldest a "P" reg Transit.
Ian you have kept it very simple from what i have read. That is a major plus in this business. Simplyfy everything.
The hardest part of the window cleaning business IMO is building up a round of work that pays the right rate. Your many years experience, means that the franshisee gets that from the get go. How many members on here spent years working on underpriced work believing that earning £80 a day was what everyone earnt.
For someone entering this business the oportunity to miss all the mistakes and pitfalls out IS WORTH THE PRICE OF ADDMISSION.
Mark
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can some one point me to the text of ians windex talk please.........
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can some one point me to the text of ians windex talk please.........
Here it is:
http://www.windowwashers.co.uk/IanLancaster.doc
Ian
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Sorry Ian Lancaster, maybe i misunderstood your letter, i thought you didn't provide a van at all, i didn't realise there was an option to lease in your plan. may i ask what the royalties are that the franchise operator takes as a percentage? Also what happens when a franchisee generates his own work, are you entitled to royalties there too because he has found work but under your name? Cheers.
From your point of view it looks a good plan as a franchise operator i just wonder how hard it is to find a suitable franchisee? Like i said i looked into becoming one once in a different industry but what put me off was a) very big outlay, b) trading under someone elses name c) paying a cut on every job i had - even my own work d) never really owning the round that you work. The only advantage i could see was getting a flying start.
Please don't take this as a crtisism i'm just debating the subject and trying to learn. :)
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Franchising is great for the seller, thats been my point all along. Thats why I am so opposed to "certain people" opening up what appears to be a healthy and useful discussion on franchising when really there is an undisclosed hidden agenda.
You pay me £15,000 and 15% of your income for the rest of your life and in return I will licence you to use the name "Vince Green Window Cleaning" ( as if ! )
You would have to be some sort of sad case to think that was deal worth considering.
There is my point, franchising is about vultures looking for mugs. The process only appeals to people who are nieve or gullable enough to think that the sales pitch of the franchise company will give them the success they would not be able to achieve without it.
They are always so quick to flag up MacDonalds as examples of how franchising can work. I agree 100% on that but they are not MacDonalds. They never will be.
They always seem to say or at least imply that they have some killer technique or method that will confer enlightenment and knowledge that the rest of us don't have. You can only get this knowledge and enlightenment by signing up with them, paying the £15,000 or what ever ( oh yes and 15% of your income for the rest of your life, I forgot about that part)
This is window cleaning we are talking about for Pete's sake.
Anybody involved with the selling or promoting of franchises should not be allowed to use this forum to groom their victims and identify future candidates by starting friendly happy little discussions about how its all so lovely and wholesome etc etc.
This forum has stopped people trying to promote other businesses that they are involved in. Time for the moderators to act on this one.
If you want to sell franchises there is a Franchise Show at Olympia next week. Go there, leave this forum alone.
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Franchising is great for the seller, thats been my point all along. Thats why I am so opposed to "certain people" opening up what appears to be a healthy and useful discussion on franchising when really there is an undisclosed hidden agenda.
You pay me £15,000 and 15% of your income for the rest of your life and in return I will licence you to use the name "Vince Green Window Cleaning" ( as if ! )
You would have to be some sort of sad case to think that was deal worth considering.
There is my point, franchising is about vultures looking for mugs. The process only appeals to people who are nieve or gullable enough to think that the sales pitch of the franchise company will give them the success they would not be able to achieve without it.
They are always so quick to flag up MacDonalds as examples of how franchising can work. I agree 100% on that but they are not MacDonalds. They never will be.
They always seem to say or at least imply that they have some killer technique or method that will confer enlightenment and knowledge that the rest of us don't have. You can only get this knowledge and enlightenment by signing up with them, paying the £15,000 or what ever ( oh yes and 15% of your income for the rest of your life, I forgot about that part)
This is window cleaning we are talking about for Pete's sake.
Anybody involved with the selling or promoting of franchises should not be allowed to use this forum to groom their victims and identify future candidates by starting friendly happy little discussions about how its all so lovely and wholesome etc etc.
This forum has stopped people trying to promote other businesses that they are involved in. Time for the moderators to act on this one.
If you want to sell franchises there is a Franchise Show at Olympia next week. Go there, leave this forum alone.
Interesting viewpoint vince, however, i dont personally believe that this forum is grooming anyone. Its just discussing a different way of growing a business. For any franchise to be successful, both the franchisor and franchisee MUST win.
There are sharks out there in any walk of life, having the information ( similar to the threads on this forum) is one sure way to protect the money of the uneducated.
Mark
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Franchising is great for the seller, thats been my point all along. Thats why I am so opposed to "certain people" opening up what appears to be a healthy and useful discussion on franchising when really there is an undisclosed hidden agenda.
You pay me £15,000 and 15% of your income for the rest of your life and in return I will licence you to use the name "Vince Green Window Cleaning" ( as if ! )
You would have to be some sort of sad case to think that was deal worth considering.
There is my point, franchising is about vultures looking for mugs. The process only appeals to people who are nieve or gullable enough to think that the sales pitch of the franchise company will give them the success they would not be able to achieve without it.
They are always so quick to flag up MacDonalds as examples of how franchising can work. I agree 100% on that but they are not MacDonalds. They never will be.
They always seem to say or at least imply that they have some killer technique or method that will confer enlightenment and knowledge that the rest of us don't have. You can only get this knowledge and enlightenment by signing up with them, paying the £15,000 or what ever ( oh yes and 15% of your income for the rest of your life, I forgot about that part)
This is window cleaning we are talking about for Pete's sake.
Anybody involved with the selling or promoting of franchises should not be allowed to use this forum to groom their victims and identify future candidates by starting friendly happy little discussions about how its all so lovely and wholesome etc etc.
This forum has stopped people trying to promote other businesses that they are involved in. Time for the moderators to act on this one.
If you want to sell franchises there is a Franchise Show at Olympia next week. Go there, leave this forum alone.
agree'd with each and every point you made
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Franchising is great for the seller, thats been my point all along. Thats why I am so opposed to "certain people" opening up what appears to be a healthy and useful discussion on franchising when really there is an undisclosed hidden agenda.
You pay me £15,000 and 15% of your income for the rest of your life and in return I will licence you to use the name "Vince Green Window Cleaning" ( as if ! )
You would have to be some sort of sad case to think that was deal worth considering.
There is my point, franchising is about vultures looking for mugs. The process only appeals to people who are nieve or gullable enough to think that the sales pitch of the franchise company will give them the success they would not be able to achieve without it.
They are always so quick to flag up MacDonalds as examples of how franchising can work. I agree 100% on that but they are not MacDonalds. They never will be.
They always seem to say or at least imply that they have some killer technique or method that will confer enlightenment and knowledge that the rest of us don't have. You can only get this knowledge and enlightenment by signing up with them, paying the £15,000 or what ever ( oh yes and 15% of your income for the rest of your life, I forgot about that part)
This is window cleaning we are talking about for Pete's sake.
Anybody involved with the selling or promoting of franchises should not be allowed to use this forum to groom their victims and identify future candidates by starting friendly happy little discussions about how its all so lovely and wholesome etc etc.
This forum has stopped people trying to promote other businesses that they are involved in. Time for the moderators to act on this one.
If you want to sell franchises there is a Franchise Show at Olympia next week. Go there, leave this forum alone.
So Vince are you saying you do not like franchising :-\
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The cheeky Taxi driver is talking about "certain people", ie me, starting a discusion purely to make franchising sound reasonable so that I can dupe forum members into giving me money. Even by your standards Vince that's pretty far fetched and stupid.
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To try and deal with some of the other points. Ian's letter, you know full well it wasn't a letter, it was an extremely well written presentation that he was invited to give at Windex. It was clear, honest, and brief.
There is no benefit at all for him, that I can see, in his sharing this with us. I find it interesting both as an idea, and that by doing this you can quite legaly have a business turning over half a million and pay no VAT.
The Jim's mowing text is interesting because it has so many similarities with us, he's Australian and his background is in cutting peoples lawns, but it reads just like some of the posts on here.
What is the problem with mulling over an idea?
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Good bye.
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i have a Franchise story
some1 i know brought a Franchise for a shop, it went ok, he then decided to get down the cash and carry and stock a few products that he could buy cheap and make more money out of, the Franchise guy came and told him off and spoke about sueing
a leter from the solicitor arrived shortly
the guy solved the problem when the Franchise guy came around next, it was a little OTT, a shotgun pointing at his head, he got all his money back as the Franchise guy said that Franchising wasnt for him ;D ;D he then run the shop and made a few bob
true story
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Everybody seems to be getting very irate about this ::)
Let me try to clarify a few points. Those of you opposed to franchising are perfectly entitled to you opinions, but you are suggesting that your opinions are the only valid ones and that anyone who disagrees must be wrong, stupid, sad or similar.
I am NOT using this forum to try to recruit franchisees, because
1. I don't need to, now that my franchise is becoming known locally, I have a waiting list.
2. Most, if not all who use this forum are already established window cleaners, or else well on the way to becoming so, and looking on here to gain ideas and information.
If you take the stand that because you have built your own business, then everyone else should do the same, and you are saying that anyone who isn't confident or capable enough shouldn't be allowed to become a window cleaner by any other method except as an employee of an established business.
WHAT ARROGANCE!!
One of my franchisees is an ex-employee of another local window cleaning business. He tried to set up on his own, but didn't have the tenacity or confidence to canvass his own customer base, or manage his own business without some help. He is nevertheless a very good window cleaner. So you advocate that he should be banned from buying a franchise, in which he can earn three times what he could as an employee, and condemned to earn a pittance as an employee.
I have another ex employee of the same firm waiting to join me.
Another one is an ex-manager of a local (huge) branch of a well known DIY chain. He's a graduate and ambitious. He saw the potential of joining me, but did his research first - talking to other local window cleaners, asking how long they took to build their rounds, etc, and decided that because I guaranteed to supply £1000/week withing 6 months, he could leapfrog the building phase and get a flying start. He may not stay with me, I don't know, but no franchisee is tied into an interminable contract.
Those of you who have built your own businesses and now enjoy the benefits, well done!! You deserve your success, but you have no right to say to someone less capable "I did it on my own, if you can't do that then you shouldn't be allowed to do it any other way"
Cheers,
Ian
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Ian
Not many franchises will guarantee £1000 a week turnover within 6 months, so well done in that aspect.
Dave
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Everybody seems to be getting very irate about this ::)
Let me try to clarify a few points. Those of you opposed to franchising are perfectly entitled to you opinions, but you are suggesting that your opinions are the only valid ones and that anyone who disagrees must be wrong, stupid, sad or similar.
I am NOT using this forum to try to recruit franchisees, because
1. I don't need to, now that my franchise is becoming known locally, I have a waiting list.
2. Most, if not all who use this forum are already established window cleaners, or else well on the way to becoming so, and looking on here to gain ideas and information.
If you take the stand that because you have built your own business, then everyone else should do the same, and you are saying that anyone who isn't confident or capable enough shouldn't be allowed to become a window cleaner by any other method except as an employee of an established business.
WHAT ARROGANCE!!
One of my franchisees is an ex-employee of another local window cleaning business. He tried to set up on his own, but didn't have the tenacity or confidence to canvass his own customer base, or manage his own business without some help. He is nevertheless a very good window cleaner. So you advocate that he should be banned from buying a franchise, in which he can earn three times what he could as an employee, and condemned to earn a pittance as an employee.
I have another ex employee of the same firm waiting to join me.
Another one is an ex-manager of a local (huge) branch of a well known DIY chain. He's a graduate and ambitious. He saw the potential of joining me, but did his research first - talking to other local window cleaners, asking how long they took to build their rounds, etc, and decided that because I guaranteed to supply £1000/week withing 6 months, he could leapfrog the building phase and get a flying start. He may not stay with me, I don't know, but no franchisee is tied into an interminable contract.
Those of you who have built your own businesses and now enjoy the benefits, well done!! You deserve your success, but you have no right to say to someone less capable "I did it on my own, if you can't do that then you shouldn't be allowed to do it any other way"
Cheers,
Ian
Having a gentlemen, who was asked to present this concept at a national cleaning show, justify what he is doing to certain members of this forum is TOTALLY ABSURD.
It really does demonstrate how bigoted some mebers of this forum really are.
Mark
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Having a gentlemen, who was asked to present this concept at a national cleaning show, justify what he is doing to certain members of this forum is TOTALLY ABSURD.
It really does demonstrate how bigoted some mebers of this forum really are.
Mark
here is a idea then, dont bother with the forum, no1 forces you to read the posts
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Matt,
I would much rather discuss this issue or others for that matter in a mature fashion allowing others to express an opinion different to mine without having to sift through pointless negative posts that add nothing to either side of the debate.
If you are unable to articulate your objection to franchising without reverting to "dont read it then" type replies you may find that you get your wish, a forum of 1. you.
Now what fun would that be!
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Matt,
I would much rather discuss this issue or others for that matter in a mature fashion allowing others to express an opinion different to mine without having to sift through pointless negative posts that add nothing to either side of the debate.
If you are unable to articulate your objection to franchising without reverting to "dont read it then" type replies you may find that you get your wish, a forum of 1. you.
Now what fun would that be!
so its ok for davo to post this
Having a gentlemen, who was asked to present this concept at a national cleaning show, justify what he is doing to certain members of this forum is TOTALLY ABSURD.
It really does demonstrate how bigoted some mebers of this forum really are.
thus s1agging off "some members" of this forum who do not share his views / opinions, which personally is a touch on the rude side, dont you think
but my reply to him isnt, and to be fair, my reply is polite and not abusive / rude
oh and i dont really have an major objection to franchising, i cannot see it effecting me, i can see the point of it with lets say "subways" , but as WC'ing franchising goes, i fail to see why any1 would want to " buy in ", just as i fail to see why any1 would choose to be employed as a WC'er, afterall be employed and earn 10 quid a hour or build your own round for a little more , BUT i havent voiced this opinion, as im sure Ian Lancaster doesnt want / need to hear it
though i think the post that Vince made is right
franchising is about vultures looking for mugs. The process only appeals to people who are nieve or gullable enough to think that the sales pitch of the franchise company will give them the success they would not be able to achieve without it.
is about right in the case of WC'ing franchising, afterall we all know a WC'er who makes a nice living out of this game, without having a degree in biz studies, its not that hard to work out is it
a. Build round ( either though a round building company or knocking doors yourself
b. clean windows
c. get paid
not sure whats so hard about that that people need help doing it, BUT i gues some people do need the help, thus Ian arrives to help ( whilst taking his slice, which i have no issue with, afterall its the same as the others who employ )
we have other issues, PL insurance, accountant, biz bank account, but none of them are too taxing for most
im sure people will be along to point out that im " not that clever and have no insight into this world, so i should keep my nose out " but hey ho
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I would never tell you to keep your nose out, your opinion is as good as the next persons. But your last post is the first one where you have actually contributed meaningfully to the discussion, and now that you have I accept some of your points and others I don't.
Very valid points relevent to the debate, that assist people in making an informed decision or opinion.
With regard to Davo's post , he is well enough able to make his own response, but It appears to me that all his posts begin with legitimate topics and then descend into defending his point of view / reason for posting from attack from the same people normally with little or no reference to the subject matter.
Nothing personal Matt, I see lots of your posts are informed and helpful on other issues.
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I would never tell you to keep your nose out, your opinion is as good as the next persons. But your last post is the first one where you have actually contributed meaningfully to the discussion, and now that you have I accept some of your points and others I don't.
Very valid points relevent to the debate, that assist people in making an informed decision or opinion.
With regard to Davo's post , he is well enough able to make his own response, but It appears to me that all his posts begin with legitimate topics and then descend into defending his point of view / reason for posting from attack from the same people normally with little or no reference to the subject matter.
Nothing personal Matt, I see lots of your posts are informed and helpful on other issues.
Matt, bluez makes very valid points on the above. You tend to chip into certain topics with smart comments that dont really add anything (your not on your own) I wonder if its because you are such a long standing member here that it somehow gives you the right to bypass common courtesy.
Mr Sol has now left this forum, my feeling is that he was hounded off by a minority of people whos sole intention seems to be to try and discredit any contributions that he made.
He came accross to me as a sincere, energetic and intelligent man. The bigots should be ashamed of their behavior, which falls nothing short of playground bullying.
On this thread the integrity of a couple of posters has, once again, been brought into question. That must be detrimental to the forum.
As for my opinion, it is my opinion and i am entitled to it the same as are you.
Mark
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Davo
Talk about bullying, I was told my reply yesterday wasnt relevent so i bowed out gracefully.
Everyone has the right to reply with there own view point not just the words you want to here.
As for calling people "bigots" for not agreeing with a certain view point is more childish and playground as anything.
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Am i one of those "bigots" i hope not. I don't see that Mr Sol was hounded off at all -someone had very strong opinions against franchising not anything against him. I'm sure he will be on here very shortly under another name.
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Davo
Talk about bullying, I was told my reply yesterday wasnt relevent so i bowed out gracefully.
Everyone has the right to reply with there own view point not just the words you want to here.
As for calling people "bigots" for not agreeing with a certain view point is more childish and playground as anything.
You class that as being bullied dave?
Why didnt you offer more information to support your point of view?
I stand by what i said in my prior post.
Mark
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Davo, you are not even a window cleaner, never have been by your own admission. So what are you doing on this forum?
What is your motivation for spending time and effort in a window cleaning forum? and what is the "marketing" you say you are interested in? Has it got anything to do with Franchising by any chance?
I am not dissing Ian and I feel sorry he got caught up this, he is up front, he posts under his own name and had the guts to stand up and be counted at Windex.
But you Davo, you hide behind a nickname, you are very short on personal details and like I said before you are not a window cleaner.
The thing is you were very quick to pitch in feet first and keep pitching aggresively on this thread so I find myself wondering whats in it for you?
This forum is not going to be hijacked by people to promote their own self interest.
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Davo, you are not even a window cleaner, never have been by your own admission. So what are you doing on this forum?
What is your motivation for spending time and effort in a window cleaning forum? and what is the "marketing" you say you are interested in? Has it got anything to do with Franchising by any chance?
I am not dissing Ian and I feel sorry he got caught up this, he is up front, he posts under his own name and had the guts to stand up and be counted at Windex.
But you Davo, you hide behind a nickname, you are very short on personal details and like I said before you are not a window cleaner.
The thing is you were very quick to pitch in feet first and keep pitching aggresively on this thread so I find myself wondering whats in it for you?
This forum is not going to be hijacked by people to promote their own self interest.
Vince , can i ask who has hijacked this forum to promote their own self interest?
You seem extremely concerned about something which doesnt appear to have happened.I understand your concerns and i personally agree with many things that you have said on the matter. However i dont think your concerns were warranted against Mr Lancaster or Mr Sol.
Mr Lancaster is running a franchise setup and Mr Sol wanted to discuss it, dont think theres any conspiracy there.
Your posts very strongly suggested that a member had a hidden agenda regarding this thread.
I dissagree....
Mark
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No more bullying than what you are implying
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No more bullying than what you are implying
Sorry dave i dont understand what you mean.
Mark
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He came accross to me as a sincere, energetic and intelligent man. The bigots should be ashamed of their behavior, which falls nothing short of playground bullying.
.
Mark
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He came accross to me as a sincere, energetic and intelligent man. The bigots should be ashamed of their behavior, which falls nothing short of playground bullying.
.
Mark
Oh i see, my comment doesnt relate to just this one post, there are many posts Mr Sol was involved in where replies became personal.
If someone wants to dissagree, then fine, but be prepared to substantiate what you say rather than the sarcastic, irrelevant drivel.
Liar liar pants on fire doesnt really promote healthy debate.
Mark
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Sorry Davo, I dont know how i got dragged in to this.
If you look at my posts it is very rare i argue with anyone and dont want to get drawn in.
Enuff said
Byyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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Matt, bluez makes very valid points on the above. You tend to chip into certain topics with smart comments that dont really add anything (your not on your own) I wonder if its because you are such a long standing member here that it somehow gives you the right to bypass common courtesy.
i chip in to certain topics with "smart remarks" that are often in humour, or in this certain case, you have a go at this forum or some of the members ( some of these i class as " mates ", thus my remark was and still is, if you dont like this place, move on, plenty of other posts to read
Mr Sol has now left this forum, my feeling is that he was hounded off by a minority of people whos sole intention seems to be to try and discredit any contributions that he made.
He came accross to me as a sincere, energetic and intelligent man. The bigots should be ashamed of their behavior, which falls nothing short of playground bullying.
Mark
Mr Sol, give as much as he gets, its easy to view posts and think " oh poor soul, he is being hard done by here, them nasty bullies are out to get him " but i can assure you he gives it out aswell, as a few will seen
personally he has improved alot in the recent times, his posts are showing respect to others and he seems to appreicate that others have different goals to his and they are not wrong
On this thread the integrity of a couple of posters has, once again, been brought into question. That must be detrimental to the forum.
once again, on the attack of others on here, this forum is for window cleaners to help each other, it might be a bit of advice about a pole, or a bit of a " gee-up" when they are feeling down about this life ( it can be a lonely life at times )
personally i find this forum works well, yes we have moments when its good to have a bit of a joke, but isnt that like life in general
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Good post that, whats wrong with chipping in with a few smart or humorous comments now and again? Loosen up a bit Davo, relax maybe a career change is what you need? :)
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I’ve been reading this thread with great interest over the Last few days and this is my thoughts on the matter.
Many years ago a friend of mine moved back to the UK after living abroad for a few years, (fortunately, or un-fortunately as it turned out) he had a few quid in the bank to invest in a business so he decided to buy a franchise (making sandwiches and delivering them to shops, garages etc. )
He thought it would be the right thing for him so after investing his money then recruiting 2 early morning staff to make them and 1 driver to deliver them, small industrial unit, fridges, van and the list went on and on.
After about a year or so he finally cottoned on to the fact that he was forever paying out money for the running costs of the business plus his percentage to the franchise owners, he infact was slowly but surely getting deeper into debt.
Eventually he sold it on at a great loss and went to work for someone else rather than being his own boss, during this period of his life he almost lost his home and wife due to the stress.
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Now I for one do not know what Ian or any other party is offering with a franchise, it may be a good deal for some but not for others the big question is would I buy in to a franchise?
The answer simply is NO!
Why?
(1) because I do not need to,
(2) I would rather be in control of my business
And third being as follows
(3) I’m not sure of the set up cost of the franchise but figures that have been spoken about on this forum are as follows.
Set up £15,000 followed by 15% of the generated income (hope I got this right?)
Expected income to be £4000 - £5000 per month
Okay so lets go with these figures, if these are correct and you pay £15,000 then achieve the £5000 per month (certainly not unrealistic)
You will have made £60,000 in your 1st year but then you will have to pay your 15% (£9000) plus set up cost of £15,000 so you will have paid out a total of £24,000.
Now lets look at this at a different angle
Buy a half decent van £5000
Buy a diy system £1000
Total outlay £6000
Employ a canvasser to build a round for you @ twice face value (the norm)
Do this in a steady affordable package ie,
1st month he gets you £2000 worth you pay him £4000 (approx earnings £500 per week)
If you required double this amount ie £1000 per week (over 4 weeks) you would have paid your canvasser £8000 in total, bear in mind once paid for it’s all yours and no percentage to pay on it each month/year.
You could alternatively buy a round @ 2 times the turnover (again the norm)
By using this method you would have paid out a total of £14,000 to get a van, system and round together (cheaper than a franchise but more importantly) SOLE OWNERSHIP
Let me just finish by saying these are just my thoughts and have no beef with anyone trying to start up a franchise (good luck to them) it’s just not for me.
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Jay,
Thats a good post. It clearly shows that you are not a potential candidate for purchasing a window cleaning franchises.
A lot of the views on Franchising that are expressed on here are based on a false assumption that the franchise is at fault if the franchisee is not successful.(see your reference to sandwich making franchise)
The business owner (ie the franchisee) is at fault if the business fails to suceed. buying a franchise is not a garauntee of sucess it is only buying the rights to a system / method of working and a brand.
Ask yourselves this question....If I as a sole trader fail in my business endevour is it someone else's fault or mine. The obvious answer is that it is my fault. Why then does it become someone else's fault if it is a franchise. I make the decision to part with my hard earned readdies not someone else.
Ian's Franchise, does not over promise, It delivers what it says on the tin, if a potential franchisee finds that he is not suited to the business for whatever reason then tough same as if I as a newbie started up and bought a system and a van and then found that I wasn't suited to w/c.
The big assumption on franchising is that window cleaners buy window cleaning franchises or take aways owners buy mcdonalds franchises, that is just not true(in general). People who buy w/c franchises are people who want to be w/c .
I am not a franchise operator by the way, I just see it as a legitimate way to expand for some businesses that lack the capital to expand through self expansion window cleaning included.
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Ask yourselves this question....If I as a sole trader fail in my business endevour is it someone else's fault or mine. The obvious answer is that it is my fault. Why then does it become someone else's fault if it is a franchise. I make the decision to part with my hard earned readdies not someone else.
but if your parting with that much cash and paying a % of your earnings, shouldnt you expect a guiding hand in running the Franchise ?? ? ? or have i got it wrong ? ? ? do you pay your money and your % and not get any help at all ? ? ? ?
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Matt, There is a big difference between garaunteeing success and giving a guiding hand.
The help you get depends on the quality of the franchise, and now we are finally getting down to the point, all franchises are not the same, it is only a way of conducting business similar to choosing to be a Ltd. Co. or a sole trader or a partnership.
I personally would never buy a franchise that did not offer expertise, and most reputable businesses would have a selection criteria that potential franchisees would have to exceed prior to being permited to buy.
It is in the interest of the franchisor that his francisees succeed, otherwise they make no money. There is no money for the franchisor in the sale of vehicles or equipment and there is generally very little in the franchise fee after costs it is often only a nominal fee (domino's I think charge about £10k) Nearly all of the potential money from franchising is in 6-7% ROYALTY payments they continue for the duration of the agreement normally 10 years.
Ian has posted that he has a waiting list, he is obviously taking his time to ensure that he can meet his commitments to each individual franchisee, and like you say giving a guiding hand. So to my mind that sounds like a good franchise, depending on the financial costs.
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grafters, am i right in reading that the sandwich man employed 3 people while he was the boss? If that is right he deserved to fail because he should have realised if he was going under, that he should maybe employ 1 and he being the other who does the driving.
If i've misunderstood, ignore this.
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grafters, am i right in reading that the sandwich man employed 3 people while he was the boss? If that is right he deserved to fail because he should have realised if he was going under, that he should maybe employ 1 and he being the other who does the driving.
If i've misunderstood, ignore this.
that's correct mark, he had 2 girls making them and a morning driver and he did the afternnoon run
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This post seems to have been all about whether franchising is a rip off or not, and of course all the answers have been given by people who would never consider being franchisees - I guess 99.9% of people who post on here are self employed, or gaining info in order to become so.
I'm not surprised that the general opinion is that no-one would want to be a franchisee, and can't understand why anyone else would.
But the world is comprised of an infinite variety of individuals - all with different ideas, likings and opinions.
There is a vast number of people who are more than happy to be franchisees. This is an undeniable truth, as there are millions of people around the world who ARE franchisees, without them there wouldn't be any franchises.
Given that these people are out there, why should a window cleaner not give them what they want?
I advocate franchising as an alternative to employing. I take it that (except in a very few cases) nobody is suggesting that there shouldn't be any employees in window cleaning?
A franchisee is a sort of "mid way" person, not happy being an employee, but not comfortable with the idea of going it alone. All I am saying is that instead of employing people (with all its attendant grief) give people the opportunity to earn far more than they could as an employee, with all the satisfaction of running their own businesses, but with the backup of an existing successful organisation.
Rather than getting carried away saying how you would never consider being a franchisee, look at it the other way round: if in the future you want to expand your business, why not consider franchising rather than employing?
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Thanks Ian, a nice sensible reply, i think everyone has missed the whole point by looking at the idea from a franchisee's viewpoint. Most of us are, like you said self employed but only a minority are in the position to PROVIDE a franchise so most of us don't really get it. However i would have thought it an interesting subject for those with so much work that they are looking to expand and take on more staff. I don't think anyone was trying to get at you, we just went off on a tangent discussing the bad sides (that we think there might be).