Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Ian Gourlay on March 23, 2008, 01:41:15 pm
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I toook on every bit of free advise I could find. A number of Forums exist and are invvaluable for providing a wealth of information and are a great way to find solutions to problems. However and this is a big however, beware those who apear to know to know a grat deal operate at the high risk of the spectrum or are simply cowboys
A qoute from Nick johnston Director of NCCA in this months Cleaning and Maintenance Magazine#
While I agree to a certain extent with what Nick says I do not like the term Cowboys especially when someone has recentley joined the industry.
I say to anyone if the see dodgy advise on this Forum and do not want to get involved in the topic they can always email me as I have heard this acusation so often I would like the evidence.
Usually dodgy advised is questioned
and then we can all make our minds up,
I read this week about removing stains from Carpets with bleach i guess that could be classified as dodgy but I think we should be aware of the possibilty on the correctly identified carpet.
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I hear what you're saying Ian and agree.
Firstly, may I correct your quotation from Nick's article. You have paraphrased a little, so the whole of the sentence can be interpreted slightly differently. Nick was talking about advice received on internet forums.
I quote from the article:
"....However (and this is a big however), beware those who appear to know a great deal, but either take shortcuts, operate at the high risk end of the spectrum or are simply cowboys. I soon learned who to trust"
We have all seen posts on all forums where the advice given could be seen by an experienced technician as being both wrong and carry a high risk. I know that, most of us know that, but an inexperienced newbie doesn't. I would call this sort of advice given as being that of a "cowboy"
It is quite rare, in my experience, for a newbie to be forthcoming with the sort of advice that would brand them a cowboy. They tend to be asking the questions and absorbing information rather than give it out.
How do we define a cowboy? Inexperienced? Untrained? Unwilling to accept sound advice? Someone out to make fast £££'s regardless of the consequences?
An inexperienced technician is just that. He/she would only become a cowboy if he had little regard for the consequences of his actions and didn't make any efforts to improve his knowledge or skills.
This is a fascinating topic you've raised Ian, and could go on forever with people raising examples and views in so many areas of our working lives.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Wise words indeed from Ken, I do wonder sometimes if forums such as cleanitup become a substitute for training?
With information and help available here, the worry is that the demand for true education will diminish.
Regards
S
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Hi Guys
I have never heard of Nick Johnson, is he a member of any forums ?
With all forums and for that part any advice it is always necessary to evaluate the credibility of the giver, afterall how many in the CC industry have real qualifications, such as engineering, science etc ?
Generally the way it works is if someone gives potentially misleading information one of the more experienced CC's will add a note of caution.
Experience is a great commodity but the forums offer a fast track to what can be learned on the job as does training, they should compliment each other.
Cheers
Doug
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Spot on Doug
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Doug, GOOD comment.
TOTAL COMMON SENCE.
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Nick Johnson runs Zebra cleaning and is a member of the forum
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Ken
I am a little puzzled as this is an internet Forum
I disagree about newbies calling others cowboys as last year on a Forum I saw a competotor of mine calling the cleaners who advertise in the local paper cowboys. This was someone who had just joined the industry and then joined NCCA.
I agree that Nick was not refering to newcomers as cowboys but more experienced people who could be construde as experts. What i was objecting to was that nick is a newcpmer to the industry , true he keeps good company , but to refer to such people as cowboys I find hard to swallow. My reference to newcomers was to Nick as he started in 2005
I do not think Forums are a substituye for training but I do think you can learn a lot from desk top research and networking
As someone who invests alot of time on trhis Forum on a voluntary basis I take offence at the slightest slur against it .
It apears Nick is one of us so maybee he would like to elaborate on who the cowboys are
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What qualifications has Nick got that give his comments weight ?
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I think what I was concerned about was a Director of the NCCA calling other cleaners cowboys.
I believe Directors of the NCCA should be a unifying force not afraid to say if they think somthing is not correct
I do think we do need to be polite if critised about are methods but then explain why we think our method works.
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Has Nick been in the industry since 2005 or an NCCA director since 2005? with many more years experience.
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As I read it he started his own company in 2005 after being a consultant to another small cleaning company for a short period of time.
Prior to that he worked in banking and Finnancial Services
I think it is good newcomers to the industry are on the board of NCCA
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If the NCCA are going to go any were they do need new blood with drive, as the main drivers in this industry they should be able to generate massive business for its members by recoqnition alone, unfortunatley thats not the case.
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The NCCA win us work all of the time when quoting, as I always enlighten our customers about to the Association, if you use them to your advantage, then the yearly membership is good value for money, I don't think the association has the time or the resources to be out there pitching for work.
It is a pity a network throughout the UK isn't set up to compete against the Nationals and Franchises, not an easy thing to do, but with the right planning and criteria success could be had.
Regards
S
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Spencer the NCCA could certainly do this as employing somebody soley for this purpose would pay massive dividends. This is what I mean about moving forward.
If they dont somebody else is likely to do so and probably soon.
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;)
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The internet and education.
The problem with the internet as a learning facility is that it tends to be a presenter of facts rather than a place of learning. It is the 'new thing' on which anything can be found but experience.
On the internet forum people present facts (or a problem resolution) without putting them into proper context without the ability to ensure that all of those who are 'listening' are fully aware of the 'what if ' effects that may be lurking if the situation is at all different from the one presented. Experience is the ability to do this.
Education is teaching people to learn how to take the facts presented and determine how they best fit the situation in front of them using a deeper knowledge of the subject.
It is this deeper knowledge that is very difficult to present in the forum model of fast track learning. People become impatient and want their question answered now without the time consuming inconvenience of learning the subject.
If people took the time to learn their subject they could work out the answers for them selves and use the forum as a place to swap experience.
And while I'm here I'll make a comment on ' Cowboys and inexperience'.
I view it as a difference in morality. My view of a 'cowboy' would be an operative (experienced or inexperienced) who manipulates a customer into spending money unnecessarily, uses short cuts that detract from the finished job whilst still charging full price or taking on work that they are not capable of doing to a required standard and intending to get away with it.
I'm sure even the most experienced of us have created situations that show gaps in our experience but we can usually work our way through it or have the honesty to admit our fault and pay for the consequence
Andy Alcock
Technical Director LTT Ltd
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Hi Andy
I agree in depth training is difficult over the internet but it is does allow fast movement of info, not always a good thing but generally beneficial.
I have always tried to give a bit of background to some of the issues like pH, solvents etc so that CC's can make a better judgement of supplier claims and not be led down the path of purchasing poor/unnecessary chemicals and can have better chances of stain removal etc.
Stain removal is difficult to get across as the last thing we want is bleached carpets.
Part of my CCDO talk will be on what stain removal is easy and safe and what isn't.
Cheers
Doug
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I have just started cc and have done the prochem course, i think with this forum and the guys on here who give so much very good advice it will stop people being cowboys, i have learnt so many useful tips its really going to help me be as professional as i can be, and several guys said they will take me out with them to give me advice. Thanks guys you have been a real help.
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Hi Sherco,
This forum and others will provide people with advice especially when new to the industry. Coming into this business is a daunting process and full of pitfalls.
There are many people on here offering good advice and support for newbies like yourself. You only need pick up the phone and ask many members on here and they will be more than happy to help you out me included :)
All the best with your new venture,
All the best,
Jason.
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I find it funny my local business centre is run by ex bank managers need I say more! ;D
Don’t give nick a hard time probably been miss quoted you know how the media plays thing up. ;)
Think he may get a grilling at ccdo if he turns up? :-\
Re shortcuts like to call it tricks of the trade and I don’t rip people off 8)
Len
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Hi Len, good point :),
As an organiser of the ccdo me and Pete have tried our best to welcome people from all aspects and opinions of our business. If any opinions have been expressed prior the day from whatever person or organisation on any forum they may be stronger than actually meant.
In other words chill out, there will be plenty of time on the day and during the evening before and after for constructive communcation.
Look forward to seeing you all there :)
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Unfortunately the fact that some have been stopped from going to CCDO means that full discussions of opinions cannot take place and so delegates will only be given a one sided view of some of the subjects.
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Judy I dont think you have quite grasped what this day is all about, I thought both Jason and Pete had explained it to Andy. If your still unsure then please ring me personally and I will explain it to you so you fully understand why your not invited.
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??? I fully understand what the day is all about which is why it is important to have all sides of the industry there to fully discuss the issues raised.
Using alternative methods of cleaning is fine as long as you don't do it '..... without putting them into proper context' and you '... ensure that all of those who are 'listening' are fully aware of the 'what if ' effects that may be lurking if the situation is at all different from the one presented.......'
As you asked us to fully test your methods of cleaning and we have the results I think through courtesy we should have been allowed to present them or at least have the opportunity to discuss them on the day. This Andy would have done very professionally as he always does.
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Judy with out LTT taking over the thread as usual, just ring me.
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Hi Guys
Coming back to the original thread it is inevitable that a number of carpet cleaning networks, be they formal or informal will become established, this is the nature of the internet.
As for the NCCA, it is often forgotten that it has many supplier associates, which obviously raises different issues to a straight CC organisation and appears to be largely run by administator types as opposed to the more dynamic sales types who we are seeing emerging on here.
This isn't meant as a criticism of anyone just the types of people likely to be attracted to a particular situation.
Cheers
Doug
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I find it a bit rich that a NCCA director talking about Cowboys when
1) You need no experience or skill to become a member, Having a good memory and passing a exam makes you a NCCA proffesional and you can be set upon the public with the misconception that your are experienced and skilled because you have a certificate and a badge.
2) Its just a tag with no policeing from the NCCA on rogue members that have insurance and say they practice the rules of the NCCA but clearly dont.
3) Business owners are still members but none of their staff are. Thought this was no longer able to happen but clearly is.
The info that comes out of the NCCA is great, but a lot of what they do is misleading.
So who are the real cowboys.
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There are a lot of cowboys in our industry, these I would class as not bothered to take any trainning at all, no insurance,hired or under powered machinery,no customer service or back up and have no concern for the customer only getting their cash at what ever means they can.
Whether your NCCA, BICSc,IICRC,PROCHEM etc etc trained or accredited,it is still down to the individuals ethics and working practices.
Every body has got to pass the same standard driving test, but there are good drivers and very bad drivers out there, down to just not being capable to drive or just could not be bothered and drive like an idiot.
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As a relative newcomer to this industry (3 years) I am amazed at the lack of commercial know how that the NCCA projects.
If you look at the states and follow the IICRC's example you will clearly see where the NCCA are falling down.
I was going to write my thoughts down but instead I'm just going to be part of a group of more worldly wise CCs that are going to action them ourselves.
I think it's time to stop thinking "why don't they do this" and start SAYING "why don't we do it" as Doug says it's inevitable that this will happen and it is.
Happy Birthday to me by the way.
The Sweeney
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Pete
Looks like we have something in common 24th. Off to Bearsted meal she paying I hope. ???
Len
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How funny is that. Did a job down there on Thursday too. Caring Lane. Nice houses. Have a good one mate.
And Len, even when they pay, they never really pay do they
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Hi Pete and Len
Happy birthday to you both, wasn't it kind of the government to give you a day off.
Cheers
Doug
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Hi Pete and Len
Happy birthday to you both, wasn't it kind of the government to give you a day off.
Cheers
Doug
yeah, up at 5.50am with the youngest, cleaned the windows (sorry wrong section) bathed the kids and about to peel spuds.
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All the best guys, dont get tooooo drunk tonight ;)
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Although my origional heading was inspired by the reference to the articlle in cleaning maintence, there is an aspect of Forums I do not like.
As you are aware I also retail Window Blinds and I also frequent those Forums.
A few years ago many of uswere agents for NationalCompany, good way to learn the trade.
But due to the way the company operated we decided to stike out on our own.
Some however joined another company which was like a semi Franchise
The company supplied them with lots of Training sample books which you usually have to buy. In return thr company wanted all orders to go through them
This arrangement worked fine company could do no harm etc.
After a period some began to realise that lower prices which helped keep competitive for the same product could be obtained elsewhere.
Obviously word got around the Forum and product was ordered from other companies while they continued to trade in the name of the origional company.
Evntually the MD noticed a fall of in orders and told one member to return sample books and stop using his trading name etc as he was obviously getting supplies from elsewhere.
This company suddenly became the bad guy on the Forum when what they had done was help the transition from Agent to sole trader.
Provided training for Free , Technical Support for free , Backed by Guarantee for five years the product sold, and supplied the biggest range ofsample booksyou would ever get.,
Next the 8 who had struck an alliance with that company also started to nick pick etc
Some are still receiving supplies from that company but the relationship has gone from good to bad
there are disputes about the continued use of their trading name.
Suppliers have been warned off
All this happened in a period of three months, without Forums I feel each person would have made up their own mind on the merits of the company involved and what they did for you and what it actually cost.
So at the slight risk of being unpopular I am saying there is a pack instinct on all Forums.
Some might call it a club.
I saw the problem from day one and arranged for multiple suppliers and traded in my own name.
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Simple really.
If you have ideas as to how NCCA could benefit the client and the cleaner then why not get stuck in to the organisation and change things.
Its not a closed shop - is it?
Benefit is - it already has a lot going for it in terms of credability with associate businesses and with the public.
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Off you go then Joe, jump in and see what you can do for them :D Many have tried over the years and left out of frustation.
They remind me so much of the old co-operative set up. I think most of the directors are all in that era :)
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I did'nt say I was the one to do it :D
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Another part of the feature said that if anyone was interested in helping , had ideas etc to contact the NCCA Office
I would imagine that if it could be organized the NCCA would be intersted in getting National Contracts.
What are the barriers
Number One Someone with the time to pusue it on a voluntary basis.
Obviously they would need to be a NCCA member
Nick is a new director who was co opted on so it may be open to other newcomers
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Going to my wmc next Sunday for the agm keep telling them to pull out of the ciu and make a profit, there potential is unlimited with the right people at the helm. Can’t knock ncca not a member but dose this make me a philistine/cowboy some may think that as they have the badge, ;D but I’ve got the t-shirt. ;)
Pete
Don’t bother using the bell ware st, beer watered down food crap, you are so right she did not pay her sister did, give it two weeks probably have me to clean her carpets. :'(
Thanks Doug and Paul
Ian
Got some roof windows from the loft shop their prices for blinds are ott, do you do them? Looking for the black out type!
Len
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Also being a relative newbie, training is paramount, but the advise and guidance on these forums has been invaluable to me.
The thing to remember is that it is just that, guidance, and not set in stone. You must make your own decisions and proceed with caution.
I have called Jason on a number of occasions for advise, and he has always been happy to help. (mind u, I must nearly owe him a whole keg of that nancy beer he drinks by now ;) ;))
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Len
An honest Answer for Velux type blinds it is best to order on line.
With most roof windows you will find a code number on the side
If you have problems sourcing a product on line let me know and I will see what I can come up with.
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Ian
Are you a double for Peter kenton ;D.
Cheers
Neil
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Len, there is someone on Ebay selling blinds for Velux at £20.00, the roll down type are £45. I have a couple of phone numbers here if you want them drop me an email. I'm about to order but can't make my mind up over blinds or roll down.
Back to the thread :-\
Yep, more information on here than any training manual and a collective of business brains to rival any carpet cleaning organisation. It would make sense for someone with a couple of brain cells to start a new organisation as the NCCA means nothing to the customers, and any new organisation would have the same clout!! As for gettting national work, there are enough people on here to do an area and give up a day to do a quote, but that raises the issue of who does the quote would probably get the work with a percentage going to the new organisation.
A good idea, but how long before it turns into Animal Farm.
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i have been a member of this forum for bout 3 yrs
i have learnt alot from very patient individuals . i have also been in a position to offer other cc jobs in their area due to my custys moving away
i agree that the forum is no subsistute for training, but imo the training lacks the "hands on" experience that you get from actually doing the job.
we all started somewhere.
my point being .you can do all the training courses that are available but when it comes down to it, if you havent done it outside a workshop does it count??
just because you have the knowledge doesnt mean you have the practical experience.
ncca may work for some but what do you actually get for your membership?( serious question)
LEN
why didnt/dont you call me..........i can get you a table in my place. free feed!!
you would pay for your drinks only!!!! :o :o( cost more than wmc) ;)
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One of the benifits is a lead generation machine but it appears that Doug is doing this for some with his web network.
There is another organization I always get the intials wrong called the SCCF or somthing Chris browne and art are in charge
For the Big boys there is Truck Mounters Association
I joined somthing onceon Ebay but it went no where
What I did like was you had to be a Carpet CLEANER FOR TWO YEARS, BEEN ON training courses for variety of industry providers, and have full product and PL liability insurance.
Two of the criteria are my gripe with NCCA
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Ian, why do you need products liability or is that for selling spotters?
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Pete
Ihave been a retailer to long
I mean Insurance for the Carpet or Suite being worked on.
I regards all my services as products.
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Hi guys
Sorry I didn't respond to this post earlier, but I didn't spot the thread - I was notified about it by a couple of guys at Carpex. I haven’t deliberately been keeping my head below the parapet, honest!
Sincere apologies if I have given the wrong impression about cowboys - no offence intended, I assure you. What I am NOT saying is that all members of forums are cowboys. I have found forums to be an invaluable source of information and long may they continue. However, newcomers are influenced by forum information that can vary between excellent and downright unprofessional. The difficulty for the newcomer can be in sorting the good from the bad. We all know that the written word, be it newspaper articles, letters or emails can be misinterpreted and forum posts are no different.
Let me bore you with my story: my introduction to this industry came through a guy who taught me how to be a perfect cowboy, spurs and all. It was like being taught to drive by a driver with several convictions for dangerous driving. So I decided to learn to drive properly by taking a course run by Advanced Driving Instructors i.e. NCCA. I passed the beginners course, but just like driving, although I have the licence, it will take me many more years before I can drive competently. I do NOT believe that membership of the NCCA makes you the best carpet cleaner on the block. This is why I continue to improve my knowledge and experience, with courses and qualifications.
I was asked to write the offending article to describe what NCCA has done for me and hopefully inform others that NCCA is a professional organisation that offers a great deal to its members. Past directors have done a huge amount for this industry and I hope to be able to add something in my small way. I do understand that NCCA membership won’t suit everyone and this definitely does not mean that you are either an NCCA member OR unprofessional! As a relative newbie, I just want to make sure that other newbies get the right start in their carpet cleaning life and continue to develop their skills, knowledge and professionalism without being tripped up by unwittingly acting upon advice which is questionable.
I will be at the CCDO next week if anyone wants to rip my head off. I tried to upload a photo of myself to make the job of identifying me easier, but couldn’t do so!
Regards.
Nick
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This forum on the whole is very good.
One can learn as much from the nonsense that is posted on here as much as what would appear and hope to be good and sound advice.
A lot on here think I post nonsense which is fine by me. Either way it is an education. If its nonsense then it needn't be listened to or put into any practice. If its thought of as something usefull then it can be copied or put into practice by those who think it worthwhile. Either way both have had their uses.
I still think a lot more is educational on here than most any of the courses but I am also of the quaint that courses should be attended. Just the courses dont actually teach anyone how to clean a carpet.
Best, Dave.
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During my time with the NCCA, the policy has been that technical issues should be referred to technically competent people. Because of the risk of returned calls being "lost" because the caller is not available, turned their phone off, on another call or whatever, a decision has been made to provide a contact number to the caller. It is then their responsibility to contact the technically competent person. The experiences of Dave and others in that scenario is the very reason for changing the office procedure. If this newer format is not, for whatever reason, working effectively then please let us know, with details if possible.
The office staff are just that. They have necessary skills ranging from accountancy through to graphic design that they bring to the Association, and specialist training too as required. But they will never be empowered to offer technical or business advice nor any issues outside their own expertise. They will instead offer contact details as stated previously.
Should you wish to contact myself or any other NCCA officers via email, then simply use the @ncca.co.uk format preceded by the officers christian name eg ken@ncca.co.uk All directors details can be found on the NCCA website www.ncca.co.uk (http://www.ncca.co.uk)
Constructive criticism is always listened to and is welcomed. No system is perfect and the Association is always striving to positively develop it's procedures.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Ken at the Woodbridge you spoke of big changes afoot (british standards)but have not heard anything since then.These sort of things infuriate me all the talk but no action
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Unfortunately the NCCA and its directors past and present will get tarred with that brush but from when ever these forums started we used to get the annual line "things are happening behind the scenes" speech but even that doesn't happen anymore and the NCCA hasn't really moved on any.
Now I appreciate it must be difficult when directors are unpaid part time workers but if the directors were really listening they should 'adapt' to what the members and potential members and past members who threw out because nothing was happening really want.
Perhaps if I rejoin I may put this point across BUT insunations of corruptions should be kept in your own head not open forums RESPECTFULLY.
Hope to see you all at the CCDO putting your peaceful points across.
Yours faithfully
Shaun
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Steve
Would the membership be interested in something like SOP XYZ issue No. 7 updated 01/04/2008 which changes the, for example, the procedure for refering consumer enquiries blah, blah, blah. These are internal administrative details which would bore the pants off the membership. Should we really be broadcasting this type of info?
As an example though, a big issue at present, which could well be the type of information you are refering to, are such things as PAS 86. We will report information about this as appropriate once something definitive has evolved. For the record, the NCCA has completed it's contribution and obligations to the PAS 86 and are awaiting upon the next phase from BSI. Publication should be "soon" dependent upon the actions of others, not necessarily the Association. This project has run into years, not months. The delays are often outside of the Associations control.
I know that the membership becomes frustrated, and it's an absolute certainty that the directors do to, when it comes to the slow pace of progress on many different issues. Having been on the inside, I have seen how the "system" (not the NCCA's) often works to surpress the best efforts of the Directors and office administrators.
At the AGM, there were one or two snippets revealed showing one direction the Association would like to travel. This may be one of the projects I was refering to at WCS. This one project though, produces a web of other benefits and consequences. It's not my brief to reveal this sort of thing as it was a meeting closed to non-members.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
PS Most of the criticism of the Association comes from non members.
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What does the NCCA expect to do with the BSI PAS 86?
The general public don't know what these pass mark are just as some may ask what the NCCA is? although that may not seem fare as cstomers do look for soe trade organisation affilliated cleaners but the PAS 86 doesn't mean a great deal to me either.
I can remember Chemdry getting BSI or something like it, with a quick look on their websites national and regional they don't seem to advertise it anymore, do you think that the industry will benefit from BSI? will they regulate the quality control or is it just training to an approved criteria?
Shaun
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PAS 86 is about standards and procedures. It will formalise through an independent nationally respected body (BSI) what to expect from a carpet cleaner.
So what are the benefits of that? The opinion is that all the training bodies can now "sing from the same hymn sheet". If a consumer is dissatisfied with any CC's service, a point of (publicly available) reference is there to show how things should be done.
There are many of our industry's big players behind this project. It is predicted that our insurers will also take this on board and that they should take this document on board as a basis for our liability insurance.
On it's own, PAS 86 will not eliminate unethical or technically incompetent tradesmen or companies, but it will make it more difficult for them to prosper.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Ken who are the industry big players?
I estimate that the biggest majority are the minority in our industry, the little fella hold the biggest share in our game.
Looking at it from a NCCA perspective I can see where it is going and would add credability to the trade but the NCCA need to have their logo added onto everything cleaning related that is associated with BSI to put itself further forward. IMO the NCCA has let its members down in not promoting itself where it matters that is to the general public but this just could be the jewel in the crown because it would really push the 'wear your badge with pride'
This could be a blinding time to be a member providing it doesn't take years to do and impliment and also it does NEED promoting/advertising.
Shaun