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UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: tompoole on March 09, 2008, 10:16:54 am

Title: tds 0.06?
Post by: tompoole on March 09, 2008, 10:16:54 am
anyone help. :'(

 got a tds of 0.06 and only been running less than a week. made about 600 litres. comes out ro at 30 then di at .06 was 0.00 first couple of days then 0.01 disconected and bought ro and di indoors for a couple of days now it .06 ??? what a pain got a full week next week and can't make any water looks like i'll be back to trad for most of it and only wfp the conservatory roofs and  gutter facias.

Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: russ_clark on March 09, 2008, 11:40:20 am
your resin must be shot mate
get some new resin
(try giving your DI vessel a good shake it might help short term)
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: philboy on March 09, 2008, 11:53:02 am
I'm with Russ, change ya resin.
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: tompoole on March 09, 2008, 12:00:26 pm
after one week !! :'(
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: tonylee on March 09, 2008, 12:03:47 pm
hi.
did you fill thr resin vessel? I am told it can channel if not packed in well enough.
a good shake may help but I would refill packing it a lkittlr tighter this time
tony
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: Peter Fogwill on March 09, 2008, 12:06:25 pm
after one week !! :'(

Tompole, what kind of RO have you got? Is it a Merlin by any chance?  If not how many GPD is it?

The 30 reading is a bit high unless it is a Merlin, they are always high.

How big is the DI vessel?

Peter
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: tompoole on March 09, 2008, 12:08:34 pm
hi

200gpd from purefreedom and the di i would est at about two litres

how long should they last?

Just checked it liiks the same as man ro and a small 700ml di unit prob the smallest.
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: Peter Fogwill on March 09, 2008, 12:19:22 pm
hi

200gpd from purefreedom and the di i would est at about two litres

how long should they last?

You will probably find that your DI is the 3/4 L vessel.  They are usually hard on the DI from new as the system cleans itself out when you first run water through them.  I usually send a replacement resin FOC, if the resin runs out fast for this very reason.  I am a bit concerned about the 30ppm in reading from the RO this is way to high.  I think you could have a rouge membrane in there, but first I would check the two  housings to make sure both have membranes inside, they might have missed one, I have done that in the past.

Peter
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: Peter Fogwill on March 09, 2008, 12:25:11 pm
If you have membranes in the housings, take out each pipe from the RO vessels from the bottom, not the side which opens, the pipe nearest the middle of the housing and test the water.  This way you will see if one of the membranes is not working properly, and you can phone up for a replacement.

Peter
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: dave0123 on March 09, 2008, 12:27:09 pm
I have a purefreedom 300GPD RO and my tds from the ro is 24 thats from water tds of around 350 370 .
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: Peter Fogwill on March 09, 2008, 12:29:47 pm
Dave, what sort of waste to product ratio do you get?

Peter
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: dave0123 on March 09, 2008, 12:50:51 pm
am not sure peter.

i have a booster pump thats with the tds at 24 without it was 30 as well. i waste is quite alot i think its around the 50/50 or 50 pure 75 waste :-[
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: tompoole on March 09, 2008, 12:56:25 pm
hi peter

1st one reads 330 2nd one reads 360 and the final reding is 41 so i guess its the sec ond membrane is shot

cheers

tom
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: Peter Fogwill on March 09, 2008, 12:59:40 pm
Thanks dave, do you know if pure freedom put the systems together themselves?  

I was thinking they may have adapted them to produce less, waste that is why I asked.  If they do then I think they may be sacrificing low tds from the membranes to save on waste water, as they seem to be running at about 94% productivity on the membranes, instead of the 98% you normally get.

If that is the case then tompoole's system will probably be working the way it is meant.

Peter
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: Peter Fogwill on March 09, 2008, 01:03:09 pm
hi peter

1st one reads 330 2nd one reads 360 and the final reding is 41 so i guess its the sec ond membrane is shot

cheers

tom

Tom you must be taking the reading from the wrong end, or the wrong pipe.  It is the end with two outlets, and if you look closely one of the outlets are nearer the outside of the tube, and one nearer the middle.  It is the one nearer the middle you want to take the reading from.  The reading should be around 30.

Peter
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: alanwilson on March 09, 2008, 01:12:55 pm
when you turn the ro on make sure you run off the first 5 litres or so before the resin as this will have a very high tds thus knackering the resin very quickly.

I don't know why anyone buys these little 200gpd units, they're not built for the job.
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: Peter Fogwill on March 09, 2008, 01:17:59 pm
Alan I would have to disagree, I think they are ideal for the job.  I have thousands of them out there producing more than enough water for their owners daily needs, and all for less than £50 per year running costs.

Peter
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: tompoole on March 09, 2008, 01:22:12 pm
Hi peter.

they all read 37.  bought the system that andrew mccann @ purefreedom recommended. every one else on here seems to speak very highly of him and has been  good to his word so far and very help ful. I will give him a call mon. I think from the advice i have recieved it must be the resin is totally shot.

thanks for the help
peter do you supply wfp products then?

tom
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: Peter Fogwill on March 09, 2008, 01:29:43 pm
I am not saying anything is wrong with it tompoole, I am just saying that it may be set up differently.

The readings are consistent so nothing wrong with the membranes, and yes you definitely need to replace the resin.  You will find that your next lot of resin will last longer than the first.

Yes I do sell products, my site is at www.window-tools.com

Peter
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: alanwilson on March 09, 2008, 01:31:24 pm
sorry peter but assuming normal home pressure of 50psi and water temp of 8c you're aren't going to get anymore than 300ltrs a day from them. 

You say they're providing more than enough water, I reckon the customer has just got used to having such a small amount of water to use each day.

Simple fact, the more water you use the faster you can go, doing a better job.
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: tompoole on March 09, 2008, 01:41:42 pm
Cheers Peter.

I didn't know you you were around thanks for your advice. as you will tell i'm new to the wfp game.

 and alan i can see now that if you have lots of work then yes you would need a larger unit as i have found that you do need to use lots of water to get the windows as clean as trad.

been tight on water for the first week and got spotting on new cleans but my regular cleans with near perfect upvc frames came up great. wasn't prepared fpr the resin giving up after a week though

tpm
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: Peter Fogwill on March 09, 2008, 01:51:53 pm
Allan, all my customers have the option of upgrading to the 300gpd for very little cost, but very few have seen the need.  Quite a few ask about the upgrade when ordering, and I tell them there is no need.  I then tell them should they find that they are not producing enough then the upgrade is still available as and when they need it, I have had only a handful of people upgraded.  Remember that most of these people use a storage tank of some sort.

I know exactly what you mean about speed and good results, but it depends more on how you use the water, as opposed to the volume of water you can go through in a day.  Like I have said in many posts on this forum, I have seen lots of people, wasting lots of water, and lots of time.

Peter
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: tompoole on March 09, 2008, 02:15:37 pm
I started by setting the variflow at the lowest and scrubbing and rinsing the window but found it would still leave spotting behind so now scrub low then turn up to rinse. but have found also that it is very important to get the frames very clean befor touching the windows.
so on first cleans and 8 - 12 weeklys i use double the amount.

tom
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: [GQC] Tim on March 09, 2008, 03:21:49 pm
Perhaps I missed it, but did you run the RO for 2 hours, with the flush valve in the normal position, and without the DI? The membranes are coated in chemicals that first need to be removed.
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: dave0123 on March 09, 2008, 03:29:27 pm
am quite disapointed with mine if i was honest. without a booster pump its produces 12lit per hore ::) with booster pump am getting around 27 or 30lit per hour.

people on here with the same booster pump get more than me with 450GPD ro's of around 500 liters over 8 hours  :-\ were i would get 240 lol.
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: [GQC] Tim on March 09, 2008, 03:42:23 pm
am quite disapointed with mine if i was honest. without a booster pump its produces 12lit per hore ::) with booster pump am getting around 27 or 30lit per hour.

people on here with the same booster pump get more than me with 450GPD ro's of around 500 liters over 8 hours  :-\ were i would get 240 lol.

Maybe it's time to change your prefilters? That can have a detrimental effect on production rate.
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: dave0123 on March 09, 2008, 03:49:33 pm
Quote
Maybe it's time to change your prefilters? That can have a detrimental effect on production rate.


I doubt it its only a month old  ::) and its been like that from day 1
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: [GQC] Tim on March 09, 2008, 04:06:25 pm
oh haha, hmm, maybe it will get better when the weather gets warmer again.
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: mark311069 on March 09, 2008, 04:13:24 pm
am quite disapointed with mine if i was honest. without a booster pump its produces 12lit per hore ::) with booster pump am getting around 27 or 30lit per hour.

people on here with the same booster pump get more than me with 450GPD ro's of around 500 liters over 8 hours  :-\ were i would get 240 lol.

ive a 200gpd from purefreedom had it about 3months, iam a bit disapointed with mine as well,i dont have a booster pump and i struggle to get 200litres a day!!! plus i have to change resin in di every week!! tds from the tap is 357. i was told a bag of resin would last me 8 months. i dont think so !!! >:(
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: [GQC] Tim on March 09, 2008, 04:22:40 pm
Do you have one of those tiny DI canisters?

Also keep in mind that because of the cold they produce far less pure water.
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: mark311069 on March 09, 2008, 05:33:44 pm
yep small di. iam getting 25% pure and 75% waste!!!!. bit worried about the next water bill :o
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: tompoole on March 09, 2008, 05:38:07 pm
yep small di. iam getting 25% pure and 75% waste!!!!. bit worried about the next water bill :o

hi mark where do you get your resin cartridge from/ windowcleaning warehouse or pure freedom?
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: [GQC] Tim on March 09, 2008, 05:48:10 pm
yep small di. iam getting 25% pure and 75% waste!!!!. bit worried about the next water bill :o

How is the waterpressure there?
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: mark311069 on March 09, 2008, 06:16:58 pm
ive got the trolly system and 200gpd from purefreedom everything from there
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: mark311069 on March 09, 2008, 06:17:53 pm
water pressure is ok not sure how much!!
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: [GQC] Tim on March 09, 2008, 06:33:36 pm
water pressure is ok not sure how much!!

You can't really tell how ok it is until you've installed a pressure gauge. Maybe you need a booster pump. :)
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: Peter Fogwill on March 09, 2008, 06:58:31 pm
Another thing good about the pressure gauge is it can let you know when the prefilters need changing, if before the 6 months.  When the gauge starts to dip, your prefilter need changed.

Peter
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: mark311069 on March 09, 2008, 07:05:07 pm
thanks for the info guys, can anyone tell me where i can get these from.? and are they easy to install.
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: L.J.Thorpe on March 09, 2008, 07:08:12 pm
is the pure freedom set up different to ro-man system ???
am quite disapointed with mine if i was honest. without a booster pump its produces 12lit per hore ::) with booster pump am getting around 27 or 30lit per hour.

people on here with the same booster pump get more than me with 450GPD ro's of around 500 liters over 8 hours :-\ were i would get 240 lol.
that seems low output....for comparison i have 300gpd ro-man,tds in averages 500 + (highest reading i have made is 589 ::) lowest 469 :))comes out of ro at 009 then into di which is just a standard 700ml unit.even during the cold weather i got about 21 ltrs per hour and in the summer nearly 30
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: Peter Fogwill on March 09, 2008, 07:21:18 pm
Yes L.J. They readings seem consistent with what I get from my systems, that is why at first I thought it was a Merlin system, or a rouge membrane.

Peter
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: dave0123 on March 09, 2008, 07:32:15 pm
dont no why its such a low output then... :-\  even if the tap pressure isn great thats what the booster pump is for? but the pressure around here is sposed to good because the plummer who put our boiler in said it has to be good pressure to use it!  and he only lives 5 mins away so.. god knows
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: L.J.Thorpe on March 09, 2008, 07:42:48 pm
am quite disapointed with mine if i was honest. without a booster pump its produces 12lit per hore ::) with booster pump am getting around 27 or 30lit per hour.

people on here with the same booster pump get more than me with 450GPD ro's of around 500 liters over 8 hours  :-\ were i would get 240 lol.

ive a 200gpd from purefreedom had it about 3months, iam a bit disapointed with mine as well,i dont have a booster pump and i struggle to get 200litres a day!!! plus i have to change resin in di every week!! tds from the tap is 357. i was told a bag of resin would last me 8 months. i dont think so !!! >:(
if you want to use less resin try this
always disconnect ro from di when backflushing and then leave disconnected for min 20ltrs afterwards,get tds out of ro well down before running thru di
someone will say this dont work but.......instead of changing all the resin i find that scooping out the blackened stuff,topping up and giving it a good shake can be a quick fix for small changes in tds,but i will regularly use water at upto 003 or 004
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: L.J.Thorpe on March 09, 2008, 07:49:45 pm
dont no why its such a low output then... :-\ even if the tap pressure isn great thats what the booster pump is for? but the pressure around here is sposed to good because the plummer who put our boiler in said it has to be good pressure to use it! and he only lives 5 mins away so.. god knows
i dont want you to think i am being patronising but is flush valve in right position ???i did it before ::)....just cant think of any thing else,i use cleantechs cheap filters,and just change em when tds out of ro goes over 12 or so
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: dave0123 on March 09, 2008, 07:53:26 pm
Quote
i dont want you to think i am being patronising but is flush valve in right position ???i did it before ....just cant think of any thing else,i use cleantechs cheap filters,and just change em when tds out of ro goes over 12 or so

yer its in the right posistion if it was being flushed then no water would come out of the pure! well only little drops tds is 24 out of RO with booster pump running.

when you have your ro running without pump what noise should it make? does anyone with a purefreedom RO make some sort of a hiss noise?

dave
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: Peter Fogwill on March 09, 2008, 07:54:45 pm
Quote
if you want to use less resin try this
always disconnect ro from di when backflushing and then leave disconnected for min 20ltrs afterwards,get tds out of ro well down before running thru di
someone will say this dont work but.......instead of changing all the resin i find that scooping out the blackened stuff,topping up and giving it a good shake can be a quick fix for small changes in tds,but i will regularly use water at upto 003 or 004

Any RO system which has been turned off and then back on again will give higher than normal readings, it's called TDS creep and is unavoidable.  L.J's advice on disconnecting the DI after flushing saves resin life every time the water is turned on to the RO.  It just depends if you can put up with the hassle.

Peter
Title: Re: tds 0.06?
Post by: L.J.Thorpe on March 09, 2008, 08:07:26 pm
i can put up with hassle ;D ;D only takes about a minute to swap pipes then leave it running for about 5 mins back flush,30 mins waste.Doing this has drastically reduced my resin usage compared to when i first started