Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: dave0123 on March 06, 2008, 11:15:44 pm
-
how long should my resin last?
coming out of my ro its around 21 22 and my TDS has just gone to 001 from the DI tank.
I have 11lit DI vessel bought 2months ago with resin in so when i recived it was just ready to connect up. i bought it about 8th jan and prob got it working i dont no erm... a week or too later.
seems to be used very fast to me i havent even gone fully wfp yet proberly only made 3000 - 5000 liters at most :o
-
Dave,
I have just done a rough calculation but don't take it as fact but it is near enough.
For 11 litres I get 10 - 12,000 litres with TDS 34.
So if you used quality virgin Tulsion resin you should get around 11 - 13,000 litres. This also depends that you take care of your resin.
Less quality resin you will get half of that, so it depends what resin you use.
Doug
-
how long should my resin last?
coming out of my ro its around 21 22 and my TDS has just gone to 001 from the DI tank.
I have 11lit DI vessel bought 2months ago with resin in so when i recived it was just ready to connect up. i bought it about 8th jan and prob got it working i dont no erm... a week or too later.
seems to be used very fast to me i havent even gone fully wfp yet proberly only made 3000 - 5000 liters at most :o
dave do you have to di vessals ? if not I would get another as you will be chucking money down the drain.
I was changing resin every 2 weeks with one di now it is every couple of months
Ian
-
Hi,
thanks for the replies i couldnt get on here last night.
well my TDS is 24-25 after RO and actully my resin is only a month old because it has just come round to the first house i cleaned with WFP again. through the month i have only cleaned around 20 houses with it! probs even less.
dai how do you mean by look after your resin? i dont no what resin is inside because i bought the vessel with the resin allready inside (ready to go)
WW no i dont have to vessel's havent really got space might buy another son when i have more cash around.
-
Someone on the forum (High Reach, I think) keeps recommending Dowex resin.
Several other named brands have also been regularly mentioned.
My bag of resin has 'Rohm and Haas Amberlite' stamped on the bag. Is that any good?
(I can't remember where it came from)
Thanks
Mike
-
Dave will send you a mail ;)
Mike have sold the resin in your area so will await feed back!!!!
Doug
-
the one tip that has made my resin last longer is to disconnect the di when you backflush the ro and to run several ltrs of waste out before re connecting to fill van/static.....obvious once someone points it out ::),also i dont take any notice of my inline tds as it always gives a lower reading than hand held...so i go by that :)
-
Why run 2 DI's? or is that a silly question?
If so how do you connect 2 of them up.
-
Dai,
If you were talking to me about sending me mail could you please send it again please as my inbox was full jus cleared it out thanks.
the one tip that has made my resin last longer is to disconnect the di when you backflush the ro and to run several ltrs of waste out before re connecting to fill van/static.....obvious once someone points it out ,also i dont take any notice of my inline tds as it always gives a lower reading than hand held...so i go by that
are you spose to run some water to drain before making your water? because i usesd to just turn tap on and away i go each time and flushed every now and then. i just flushed the ro for a little bit then insdead of running it to di ran it 2 drain and tested the tds started 50 odd and after about an hour or so its come down so 35 odd and now 24
-
You are supposed to run water through your new membranes for 2hrs non flush setting, to get rid of the chemicals used to preserve the membranes.
-
You are supposed to run water through your new membranes for 2hrs non flush setting, to get rid of the chemicals used to preserve the membranes.
thats on first ever use of the RO isnt it? which i done at the time without the DI connected for around 3-4 hours
-
Yes, that's right.
-
Why run 2 DI's? or is that a silly question?
If so how do you connect 2 of them up.
In short-
When the tds starts to rise in DI- 1 you then use IT to pre-filter DI- 2 (which is new resin), so DI- 2 is now only being fed with an input tds of 001/002 etc & you just keep the cycle going instead of throwing resin away thats only reading 001ppm. ;)
It's VERY important to use a good quality resin when running twin DI's as this will determine how effective the system is. For me, dowex does the job- free next day delivery from wintecs. ;) Although i'm tempted to try some tulsion from DA. SERVICES.
As for connection- a short piece of hose with female connectors between the two vessels.
Tony
-
Thanks mac, that's quite clear.
So basically, the moment you do get a higher tds from the second DI, then you need to change both? Or give them both a good shake, and see how far that goes? :)
You fill the DI canisters 3/4th full right?
-
No you would just change the resin in the first one, as the second one will still have some life left in it.
Peter
-
No you would just change the resin in the first one, as the second one will still have some life left in it.
Peter
Ah, and then ofcourse, make the second the first one, swap them around. Nice.
Thanks Peter.
-
No you would just change the resin in the first one, as the second one will still have some life left in it.
Peter
Ah, and then ofcourse, make the second the first one, swap them around. Nice.
Thanks Peter.
That's it, & yes only fill 3/4 with resin & give a good shake when tds starts to rise. ;)
Tony
-
how long should my resin last?
coming out of my ro its around 21 22 and my TDS has just gone to 001 from the DI tank.
thats high out the ro , whats it in at ???
-
its actully 24 it comes out the Ro thorpe and goin in at the moment lately is 412
-
My tap tds has recently dropped from 96ppm to 74ppm. 2.5 years ago it was 106ppm so if this trend continues in about 5 years i'll be filling straight from tap :D
Tony
-
sorry mate we have been discussing this on another post aint we ;D i dont know what the "freedom" set up is like so cant say for sure ??? some one (maybe peter f) said about merlins giving a high tds out of ro,so i assume different systems behave differently,maybe ???,regardless of this my tds in is higher and out is lower with no booster.Marcus uses a booster but he has lower mains pressure than me ,he still gets a higher production rate than me while using the booster with similar tds from tap.Personally i think you have something playing up,its just finding out what tho
-
I have used over a thousand pounds of resin this year.
Time to get an RO me thinks
-
:'( and il never find out if there is something playing up lol because am new to all this.
without the booster pump my tds out of ro was about 30-31 am now thinking of just getting a merlin ??? because il get more water out of the system in less time.
i have my booster pump after the prefilters i spoke to ro-man other week he said it works better before the prefilters the one on his site for 74.00 i think it is.. so i mite try that but dont think it will make much diffrence. Also the booster pump is quite loud but if i flush the system with the pump on doesnt half make less noise :o
when i run the RO i can hear a little hiss? could be air am not sure is that normal if anyone with a purefreedom RO has the name.
-
I have used over a thousand pounds of resin this year.
Time to get an RO me thinks
Dave are your DI's in the vans or filling statics at home?
Tony
-
i have one 11lit,
its at home filling 1000lit because i use a trolley at the moment otherwise would be in van
heres a pic of the setup
-
Tony
I fill through 3 DI vessils at home at the moment, I have took all filter systems out of the vans, to many issues to deal with so kept the vand simple.
Dave
-
Tony
I fill through 3 DI vessils at home at the moment, I have took all filter systems out of the vans, to many issues to deal with so kept the vand simple.
Dave
Do you have full mains pressure going through the DI's or is it toned down to a steady flow? How big are the DI's?
Tony
-
ah sorry i replied to a post for another dave
-
that looks same as ro-man ,its a 200gpd then .Dont know mate ,filters maybe ???too new tho surely,mains pressure ???booster should sort that....strange you seem to be doing everything right
-
ah sorry i replied to a post for another dave
Yep, no good asking me about RO's ;D ;D
Tony
-
that looks same as ro-man ,its a 200gpd then .Dont know mate ,filters maybe ???too new tho surely,mains pressure ???booster should sort that....strange you seem to be doing everything right
its a 300 GPD Has 3 filters on the top one you carnt see its hidin by the other two.
thats what i thought the booster pump would sort it even if the mains pressure was low! :( the sytem has only been running for about just about 6 weeks
-
mains pressure, about 600 litres an hour
-
that looks same as ro-man ,its a 200gpd then .Dont know mate ,filters maybe ???too new tho surely,mains pressure ???booster should sort that....strange you seem to be doing everything right
its a 300 GPD Has 3 filters on the top one you carnt see its hidin by the other two.
thats what i thought the booster pump would sort it even if the mains pressure was low! :( the sytem has only been running for about just about 6 weeks
no idea mate,hard to do this sort of thing if not there to see it first hand :),the sediment filter in that pic looks nice and clean ,so i cant see it being knacked(mine are chocolate brown when replaced :o)cant help on this...sorry :(
-
mains pressure, about 600 litres an hour
That could be why you're going through so much resin mate, the resins that we buy for wfp are not efficient at such flow rates, there are other resin types available that work better at higher flow rates. I would suggest you turn the flow down to at least half that or less & see the difference :o
After all, you've nothing to lose as if you go for an RO you'll be producing water at less than this rate anyway. I know foxman will dissagree but purolite is the worst preforming resin i've used & dowex the best but i have my DI's in the van (2 x 11Ltr) so the flow going through them is minimal. I'm no resin professor but i'm pretty sure the lower you can get the flow through your DI's the more efficient they will be. If you search on the net you'll get technical data for resins & see for yourself about the flow rate affecting them. ;)
Tony
-
mains pressure, about 600 litres an hour
thats flow tho is it not ??? somebody should be able to calculate the pressure tho based on 10 lpm and 13mm pipe(thats metric for half inch aint it ???)
-
Thanks thorpe!
yer it hadnt been used when this pick was taken but it still looks the same!
how many things could it be? loads and loads or one or two? because i could look into it abit more. what i mean is .. is it just something silly like prefilters not a major problem
hmm i spose you wont no. i dont no what to do haha.. thanks anyway
-
mains pressure, about 600 litres an hour
That could be why you're going through so much resin mate, the resins that we buy for wfp are not efficient at such flow rates, there are other resin types available that work better at higher flow rates. I would suggest you turn the flow down to at least half that or less & see the difference :o
After all, you've nothing to lose as if you go for an RO you'll be producing water at less than this rate anyway. I know foxman will dissagree but purolite is the worst preforming resin i've used & dowex the best but i have my DI's in the van (2 x 11Ltr) so the flow going through them is minimal. I'm no resin professor but i'm pretty sure the lower you can get the flow through your DI's the more efficient they will be. If you search on the net you'll get technical data for resins & see for yourself about the flow rate affecting them. ;)
Tony
get the ro ,will slow flow considerably and tony is right if that 10lpm going straight through a di THATS why you using so much resin
-
Oh one thing it does do is when you have been using it and you turn the system off tap etc the sediment filter the 1 you can see in starts to empty slowly to around half way then fills up when tap starts again.
dont know if that means anything
-
Thanks thorpe!
yer it hadnt been used when this pick was taken but it still looks the same!
how many things could it be? loads and loads or one or two? because i could look into it abit more. what i mean is .. is it just something silly like prefilters not a major problem
hmm i spose you wont no. i dont no what to do haha.. thanks anyway
Dave123
I wouldn't think being so new it could be much but i would contact your supplier & get to the bottom of it, like, tomorrow morning? ;) otherwise you could end up going round in circles all week.
Tony
-
Tony
once resin tds starts to rise there isnt much you can do to stem the flow , maybe get an extra 1000 ltr or 2, but when its gone its gone.
I have tried all sorts of ways to get the resin to last longer as i have been di for nearly 3 years.
What i do is have one vessil on go until the tds rises above zero then i put fresh di vessil after the one which is rising.
So i have tapwater tds of about 80 going into vessil which is 5 approx and rising into fresh resin which comes out zero, when the first vessil gets to 80 ish i change it for fresh and put it after the last one i changed , if i have 2 vessils rising in tds together i put a third vessil in line.
Tried all sorts, nothing seams to help, i dont get stressed with it, if i start trying i am just wasting my time and time is more valuable than trying to get a few extra litres out of a bag of resin.
Dave
-
Thanks thorpe!
yer it hadnt been used when this pick was taken but it still looks the same!
how many things could it be? loads and loads or one or two? because i could look into it abit more. what i mean is .. is it just something silly like prefilters not a major problem
hmm i spose you wont no. i dont no what to do haha.. thanks anyway
Dave123
I wouldn't think being so new it could be much but i would contact your supplier & get to the bottom of it, like, tomorrow morning? ;) otherwise you could end up going round in circles all week.
Tony
gotta go with that mate,probably something really minor,takes a while for any real problems to start,give em a ring :)
-
Thanks!
i will do give them a ring 2morra mite as well if we get all thse winds and jus say its producings not much water lol.
thanks
-
Tony
once resin tds starts to rise there isnt much you can do to stem the flow , maybe get an extra 1000 ltr or 2, but when its gone its gone.
I have tried all sorts of ways to get the resin to last longer as i have been di for nearly 3 years.
What i do is have one vessil on go until the tds rises above zero then i put fresh di vessil after the one which is rising.
So i have tapwater tds of about 80 going into vessil which is 5 approx and rising into fresh resin which comes out zero, when the first vessil gets to 80 ish i change it for fresh and put it after the last one i changed , if i have 2 vessils rising in tds together i put a third vessil in line.
Tried all sorts, nothing seams to help, i dont get stressed with it, if i start trying i am just wasting my time and time is more valuable than trying to get a few extra litres out of a bag of resin.
Dave
But what i'm saying dave is that if you turn your flow from the tap down that is feeding the DI's this should give you much more litres of water before the tds starts to rise. If you changed to dowex resin & turned your flow down to at least half of what it is now & this resulted in you halfing your resin costs would it be worth it to you?
Also do you shake the first vessel when it gets to 80ppm?
Tony
-
Tony
I have shaken them and it does absolutely nothing at all.
Honestly what you are saying wouldnt even give you an extra 5 % out of the resin , no way twice as much.
I have tried everything.
Dave
-
get an ro ,the tds on your tapwater makes mine look like chernobyl run off :o in at 500 out at nine,three sets of prefilters and 25kg of resin for a year ,thats about one tenth of what you are spending on resin,surely the ro will save you money....suppose it depends how much water you use tho ???
-
Indeed Dave, with your production rate of water, I'd really go RO. Thousand pound on Resin already in this year would be enough to go RO in my opinion. And I'm assuming with your turnover, 2x 4040 RO's wouldn't be too much of an issue would it?
How can you justify spending thousands a year on Resin, while an RO is so much economical?
Thinking about it again, apart from fast filling and the initial startup cost. I'd still be RO + DI even if I lived in a very soft water area.
-
yeah I'd def recommend a 4040. No need for a twin 4040, just go for a good 4040 setup (gapswater) and booster pump.
You can run the ro at a very low waste ratio if it is pumped and esp as your tap tds is low.
Will save you a fortune.
-
yeah I'd def recommend a 4040. No need for a twin 4040, just go for a good 4040 setup (gapswater) and booster pump.
You can run the ro at a very low waste ratio if it is pumped and esp as your tap tds is low.
Will save you a fortune.
Yea but he's running a couple of vans and using 1000l + a day per van or so?
-
Tony
I have shaken them and it does absolutely nothing at all.
Honestly what you are saying wouldnt even give you an extra 5 % out of the resin , no way twice as much.
I have tried everything.
Dave
Well, after 4 years with DI only I have more then halfed my resin consumption & am now even using more water than i was back then! from 5/6 bags per year down to 2.
This has been with adding a second DI vessel, switching to dowex resin & backflushing/shaking the vessels.
You still seem to be missing the main point, you haven't mentioned if you've ever tried filling your statics with a lesser flow rate? The lesser flow rate is the main attribution to your resin efficiency IMO? There's no way any normal wfp resin is going to last blasting 600ltrs per hour through it!
Tony
-
I have used over a thousand pounds of resin this year.
Time to get an RO me thinks
£1000 of resin in three month geezzz, you defo need a 4040
-
pumped single 4040 will make about 300ltrs per hr = 7200lpd
although that means running the pump all the time. Not cheap on elec or pumps either!
-
pumped single 4040 will make about 300ltrs per hr = 7200lpd
although that means running the pump all the time. Not cheap on elec or pumps either!
I get about 140L per hour with no pump, have had to buy new fittings for hose as it keeps blowing off ::)
I am liking the sound of 300L per hour though, wheres the best place to get a pump ?
Ian
-
MB-400
Ready-to-use mixed bed
Technical Data
Product Description
MB-400
is a fully-regenerated mixture of strong acid cation resin (C100H) in the H form with a type 1 strong-base anion resin (A400OH) in the OH form. It is ready for use after a short rinse to drain and can achieve very high quality demineralised water.
Applications:
This resin is primarily used in two roles for the production of high quality demineralised water. While it is suitable for use in regenerable or non-regenerable cartridges and in large ion exchange units, it is primarily used in the non-regenerated throw-away mixed bed market.
It can be used either in small applications to directly treat incoming raw waters to produce a good-quality demineralised water or in a polishing application after other ion exchange and / or reverse osmosis plant to produce water of even higher quality. Polishing of good-quality water under recommended operating conditions can see the resin as supplied achieve almost complete reduction of total dissolved solids. The residuals produce average conductivity values of about 0.1 s cm-1 for a major portion of the service run, which may be extended depending upon the final water quality acceptable.
Regeneration:
The product is supplied to a high-quality level including the grading of the resin which allows the resins to be separated on backwashing and means that this resin can be returned to a central regeneration station for regeneration and re-mixing before re-use in a similar or the same application.
High volumes of ultra pure water may be obtained after regeneration but only if sufficient regenerant quantities are employed to achieve the percentage conversion levels equivalent to those of the "as supplied" resin. Generally acceptable capacity and quality is obtained economically at lower regeneration levels.
It is usually impossible to obtain the same level of performance from any ready-to-use mixed bed resin after regeneration compared to when first manufactured and used in an application.
The mix of cation and anion components is not equal. It has been designed to give equal cation and anion performance over a wide range of naturally occurring raw waters.
Typical Chemical and Physical Characteristics
Polymer Structure Gel polystyrene cross-linked with divinylbenzene
Appearance Spherical beads
Functional Groups Sulphonic acid and quaternary ammonium
Ionic Form - as shipped Hydrogen - H+, Hydroxide - OH-
Shipping Weight 705-740 kg/m3 (44-46 lb/ft3)
Screen Size Range (U.S. Standard Screen) 16-50 mesh wet
Particle Size Range (microns) +1200 < 5%, -300 < 1%
Moisture Retention - as shipped 65% max
Total Exchange Capacity
Cation component (Na+ form) 1.9 eq/l min
Anion component (Cl- form) 1.3 eq/l min
Percentage by volume
Cation component 40
Anion component 60
Temperature Limit
Non-regenerative bed 100° C (212° F)
Regenerative bed 60° C (140° F)
pH Limits None
Notes
This resin mixture is manufactured with a very high percentage conversion to the hydrogen and hydroxide forms. Exposure to the atmosphere for more than half an hour can result in uptake of substantial quantities of carbon dioxide which can affect the performance of this product. Hence, bags should be opened shortly before use and unused bags re-sealed carefully. This product should not be left in direct sunlight.
Pure deionised water of the quality obtainable from MB-400 has uses in many applications and industries. A few of these are included in the following list: in chemical and photographic laboratories, for water conditioning for steam irons, for topping up car batteries, for stain prevention in glazing industry, in the cleaning of glassware in catering and licensed trade, as well as the EDM market
Water may be passed either intermittently or continuously at flow rates up to 40 bed volumes per hour, depending upon the total dissolved solids of the water to be treated. Where use is intermittent, the provision of a recycle system will ensure that the treated water quality is the best possible. Alternatively, after a period of shutdown, the first water obtained when starting up can be discarded until the quality is satisfactory.
Many alternative ready-to-use resin mixtures are available from the Purolite range. They include other mixed beds including self-indicating resins, mixtures especially designed for operation at higher-than-average flow rates, and mixtures offering high capacity where purity is not critical, or where the feed water quality makes an alternative more suitable. For further details please contact Derwent Water Systems
-
is all resin regenerated that we use ?
I use dowex myself and found it good.
does anyone know where they can get resin that cleans parts per billion ?
-
is all resin regenerated that we use ?
I use dowex myself and found it good.
does anyone know where they can get resin that cleans parts per billion ?
Dowex is virgin resin IIRC.
-
Not all resins are regenerated, the above quote is for purolite mb400 taken from derwent-water-systems & before foxman says "who are they"- they are global suppliers & manufactureres of water treatment plant & do not sell window cleaning tools from a lock-up ;)
There are also loads of different resins for many different applications.
Tony
-
Not all resins are regenerated, the above quote is for purolite mb400 taken from derwenfoolersystems & before foxman says "who are they"- they are global suppliers & manufactureres of water treatment plant & do not sell window cleaning tools from a lock-up ;)
There are also loads of different resins for many different applications.
Tony
That should read- d e r w e n t w a t e r s y s t e m s don't know why that was auto-edited. ::)
Tony
-
Probably because of the last letter of derwent and the first 3 of water :)
-
I need to clear a few things up.
When i said £1000 in a year , I meant in the last 12 months, my tax year ends April 5th.
I dont have static tanks, I DI straight into the van.
Why have I not gone RO sooner.
1, DI is so simple no complications
2 no days lost through lack of water production
3 I didnt know how much i was going to use through 12 months
4 To set up RO, I would need a better tap connection than i currently have, 30 metre hose to a booster pump, pre filters, quality RO membrane, holding tanks (which i dont have at the moment) , quality transfer pump and hose.
5, needed space for holding tanks.
6, need to set electricity supply to my garage 30 mtres from my house
I have got 4 1000 litre IBC's on order, this is the first step towards improving my water production, this alone is costing me £250 plus time to take delivery.
When they arrive i have to spend Time working out how to connect the 4 together as well as finding space.
Why 4 ? Well i want to fill my tanks in one go instead of worrying every night will i have enough water for the morning.
I didnt take the decision lightly to use DI up until present, now because of the amount of water i am producing i think the time is NOW right to start to think about reducing costs.
If my weekends start being taken up sorting RO problems well it will be the wrong decision.
I have put time and ease of use before cost, as time is more valuable to me than trying to save £10 a week.
Dave
-
Tony how many litres do you get from a bag with what tds reading.
This is the spec for Dowex MB 50 which has surprised me :-
Product Information
Page 1 of 2 * Trademark of The Dow Chemical Company Form No. 177-01633-1003
DOWEX Ion Exchange Resins
DOWEX MB-50
A Ready-for-use Regenerable Mixed Bed Resin for Production of High Quality Water in Lab
and Industrial Applications
Product Resin ratio Matrix Functional group
DOWEX* MB-50 1.2:1 by equivalent, cation:anion Styrene-DVB gel Sulfonic acid, quaternary amine
Guaranteed Sales Specifications OH- form H+ form
Total exchange capacity, min. eq/l
kgr/ft3 as CaCO3
1.2
26.2
1.8
39.3
Water content % 60 max. 50-56
Bead size distribution†:
0.3-1.2 mm, min.
Conversion (OH), min.
Cl, max.
%%%
90
90
1
90
Typical Physical and Chemical Properties OH- form H+ form
Particle density g/ml 1.08 1.22
Shipping weight g/l
lbs/ft3
720
45
720
45
Recommended
Operating
Conditions
• Maximum operating temperature
• pH range
• Bed depth, min.
• Flow rates:
Service/fast rinse
Backwash
Regeneration/displacement rinse
• Total rinse requirement
• Regenerant
• Operating capacity, typical
• Treated water quality, typical
Conductivity
Silica
60°C (140°F)
0-14
800 mm (2.6 ft)
5-50 m/h (2-20 gpm/ft2)
10-15 m/h (4-6 gpm/ft2)
2-10 m/h (0.8-4 gpm/ft2)
3-6 Bed volumes
1-8% H2SO4 or 4-8% HCl and 4-8% NaOH
0.5 eq/l (11 kgr/ft3 as CaCO3)
< 0.2 μS/cm
20-30 ppb
† For additional particle size information, please refer to the Particle Size Distribution Cross Reference Chart (Form No. 177-01775).
Page 2 of 2 *Trademark of The Dow Chemical Company Form No. 177-01633-1003
Typical Properties
and Applications
DOWEX MB-50 resin is a ready-to-use regenerable mixture of DOWEX HCR-S (H) cation
exchange resin and DOWEX SBR LC NG (OH) anion exchange resin.
DOWEX MB-50 resin is used for production of high quality water for laboratory and industrial
use.
Packaging 25 liter bags
http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterature/dh_0034/0901b80380034d39.pdf?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/177-01633.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc
-
It's a pity we are not scientific enough to analyse all this data, what we need is now litres will be produced from a bag at xxxxppm.
Suppliers do not have to inform wether the resin is reginerated or virgin on the bag, they have the option to put any grade in.
There is a huge difference with some products with some lasting twice as long. Locally produced resin will more and likely be regenerated as it far more cost effecive to produce this way.
-
GEEEEEEEEEEES doug, i'm a window cleaner! ;D
You're right, for one i am certainley not scientific enough to analise all that info :-[
I can't specificaly tell you how many litres of water i purify with one bag of resin etc. What i can say is that my findings are correct with my situation as i also have tried many things to reduce my resin costs without sacrificing water quality. As stated, i use much more water now than i did two years ago but less than half the resin! My tap tds is 76ppm (recentley dropped from 96ppm)
1. purolite- when this resin hits 001ppm there is generaly no stopping it just rising by the minute & in no time, usualy a day or two at the most is un-usable for window cleaning i.e. tds= 20/30/40 etc.
2. When this happens with dowex 001ppm will stay at 001ppm all week & only start rising slowley, a quick shake of the vessel ( performed in the correct way) will put the reading back to 000ppm. Obviousely it will rise again & the periods of time at 000ppm get less & less & so this is when i switch vessels round.
3. with either of these resins the higher the flow the less efficient they become, i.e. if say i have a reading of 001ppm & i then run water through at full mains pressure the reading will start to shoot up. I tried it with a 000ppm reading too & found the tds starting to rise but slow the flow back to normal & hey presto- 000ppm again.
4. With purolite i could never get more than 4 weeks out of a 3/4 fill of 2- 11Ltr DI's, but with dowex i can get 7/8/9 weeks & i'm using more water now.
Dave @ st ives
You havent answered the most important aspect of this topic yet mate- have you run your di's at only a low flow rate to steadily fill your tanks- or have you always filled at full tap pressure- 600lph? as i'm pretty sure this is having a big affect on your resin economy but i can't seem to get it out of you :D
Tony
-
macmac, he can't do it at half the pressure, cuz he fills up the van directly, not in a holding tank, so time is of the essence.
What exactly do you mean with shaking the vessel the right way, is there some sort of dance I should perform? :)
-
I have turned the tap down and nothing happens.
I bet your one of those guys who turns the shampoo bottle upside down just to get that last inch out
-
That's what I found out as well Tony.
With Purolite and Rohm I would get around 2 months usage out of a bag and the TDS went from 001 to 010+ after a couple of fills.
With Tulsion I am getting between 5 to 6 months usage and the TDS gradually rises, that is with one di vessel and tds around 34.
What we have to remember these products are not designed for the window cleaning industry and are soley used in other industries. Window cleaning has tagged along behind so the manufacturers make these products to their customers requirements but unfortunatley window cleaning is not one of them.
I know there is an even better preforming Tulsion product than MB115 but we would have to pay through the nose for it. And as we know us window cleaners like things to be cheep ;D
So from forking out around £540 a year to around £192 a year there is a huge difference.
Doug
-
Dave Morris @ St Ives - I assume your post about the shampoo bottle was with tongue-in-cheek! Tony (macmac) is really trying to help and save you money!
-
I have turned the tap down and nothing happens.
I bet your one of those guys who turns the shampoo bottle upside down just to get that last inch out
I've got a better way. I run a bit of water into the bottom of the bottle to get the last wash from it. I do it with bubble bath too :)
-
Tony (macmac)/Dave @ St Ives/anybody
I do all my WFP work on 2/3 consecutive days and it is not used again until the following week.
Have I understood correctly in the 'purolite specification' post that if you do not use the resin continuously, you will get a (low) tds reading when you next start using it and will have to 'run off' a certain amount before it returns to a 0 tds reading?
Thanks
-
Dave,
I am hazarding a guess here , it depends on what size vessel you have and what resin you are using. Like myself you went on the BWCA course and learnt all about mesh size etc..
A couple of guys that I sold resin to use the Cleantech DI vessel which if I am correct the volume is 10 litres. Their TDS went upto 001 and stayed there for ages but I was surprised that it went upto 001 quicker than what it does for me. Rang the supplier and he told me flow rate, volume etc.. has an impact. This info I forwarded on and immediatley TDS went back to 000 .
Mike,
Not using resin continuously will have no effect on tds levels, it will not drop down once it rises only when you give it a shake etc.. it drops for a period. One things that I have noticed if you empty your di vessel of water after each fill this is one of many factors that helps prolong your resin. Stagnent water in your di vessel can have an impact on your resin life.
Doug
-
Doug (D A Services) - Thanks, but can you look at the reply from macmac (High Reach) time 12.41 - next to the last paragraph in the Purolite specification.
What does that mean?
Thanks
Mike
-
Mike,
Are you reffering to this statement :-
Water may be passed either intermittently or continuously at flow rates up to 40 bed volumes per hour, depending upon the total dissolved solids of the water to be treated. Where use is intermittent, the provision of a recycle system will ensure that the treated water quality is the best possible. Alternatively, after a period of shutdown, the first water obtained when starting up can be discarded until the quality is satisfactory.
If so sorry do not know what it is reffering to but can ask.
-
Doug - Yes, that is what I was referring to.
If you find out anything you can post it on here or email me.
Thanks
Mike
-
Will do.
-
Mike
You are a funny guy.
I use 3 vessils a 25 litre and 2,-- 18 litre vessils
So my water goes through 61 litres of resin on its travels to my van, some times i lie them downd and turn them upside down.
I have even got the kids to roll them around the garden.
It takes long enough to fill the van as it is without turning the flow rate down (which i have noticed doesnt do much if anything)
One thing i have noticed nothing much happens.
You cant teach your Grannie to suck eggs.
Been there , done it tried it.
I think i will have a go with Dougs resin and see how that goes.
-
p.s
Dont forget i am using between 1000 and 2000 litres every single day.
-
macmac, he can't do it at half the pressure, cuz he fills up the van directly, not in a holding tank, so time is of the essence.
What exactly do you mean with shaking the vessel the right way, is there some sort of dance I should perform? :)
Yeah i know but what i was going to suggest is that he fills statics then these will fill his van tank, however, you can'y teach an old dog new tricks & if he's happy to over 1k per year on resin then thats fine & his supplier will be even more happy ;D
As for shaking the vessel- i've done with this thread & tbh can't be arsed banging my head against a brick wall, as they say- it's no good knocking if there's no one in ;)
Tony
-
Tony :o
Dont be like that,dont go ;D
if you read the back posts , you will see i am about to invest in some tanks, the first phase in trying to make water cheaper.
-
Dave Morris
Sorry, Grannie! ::) ::) :-*
-
macmac
how much water do you use a week.
I know you have to give the resin time to do its work, i have spokn to Alan Matthews quite a bit about this subject.
Resin should be able to handle 10 litres a minute going through 50 litres of the stuff.
There are guys here using 2 litres a minute on there vans going through 1 litre vessils , so 10 going through 50 plus should be more than enough.
-
Yeah - your right. I can see where you're coming from now.
Sorry for butting in.
Mike
-
macmac
how much water do you use a week.
I know you have to give the resin time to do its work, i have spokn to Alan Matthews quite a bit about this subject.
Resin should be able to handle 10 litres a minute going through 50 litres of the stuff.
There are guys here using 2 litres a minute on there vans going through 1 litre vessils , so 10 going through 50 plus should be more than enough.
It's also down to the input tds, so the guys using 1ltr bottles what is the input tds that is feeding the 1ltr bottle?
The input tds feeding your main bottles is 80ppm see?
The lower the input tds the higher the flow the resin can handle & as the resin gets more & more used up the resin gets less economical if the flow rate doesn't lower too.
As for shaking- let some water out of the vessel to make room inside, cap the ends off with a loop of hose & shake the whole thing up/down side to side etc for a minute to mix up the resin inside & get rid of the flow created channels. let it settle for 15/20 mins, run a few litres through & bob's ur uncle. ;)
The princepal is the same no matter how much water you use a week. It's about making resin more economical & not competing with an RO.
That's it for noo :P
Tony
-
Mike this is in reply to your question :-
Ion exchange is a continuous process, and the exchange takes place due to ionic concentration difference. When the flow is stopped (i.e.during shutdown), the ionic concentration in water and that on resin reaches equilibrium. Now when you start the cycle, this water having higher ionic concentration comes out first. This will be approx 30-35 litres in a system using 25 litre resin. Thereafter you will get good water. This in layman’s term just means that you should remove /drain the stagnant water in the resin bed.
Hope you understand that.
Doug
-
Doug
The data you show is from a regenerated resin, not virgin resin
-
Doug - Thanks for looking into that for me.
Mike
-
Doug
The data you show is from a regenerated resin, not virgin resin
The data i show is for regenerated resin, the data doug shows is for virgin resin which is regenerable (as far as i can see). the resins we use can be regenerated more than once.
Tony
-
There seems to be a lot of confusioin with term 'regenerated'. People like Macmac think regenerated resin is 'second hand, reused or refurbished' resin. In some cases this may be true - but you would know about it and you wouldn't be buying it directly from a resin manufacturer.
Manufactured resin such as Dowex, Purolite, etc is also regenerated because it is mixed bed resin. Mixed bed meaning there are a number of different types of resin in there. The regeneration is part of the process of making the resin.
"All it means is that the resin has been converted into its functional for. This is accomplished by regenerating the cation resin into the hydrogen form and the anion resin into the hydroxide form. As the resin in manufactured, it would not function properly as a mixed bed. "Highly" regenerated means that it is near 99% regenerated into the appropriate form so that it gives you higher purity water and better leakage for longer."
This is a direct quote from the lab of a resin manufacturer.
-
Foxman
Is there a way to make resin go "substancialy" further.
Or is it just just clutching at straws ?
Dave
-
Having the 2 x DI tanks is probably the simplest way, apart from 'regenerating ' yourself i dont think there is much else you can do.
The debate for the best resin will still rage on though. Dave, as you use a lot of resin, it would be interesting to see what your findings on different makes are?
-
There seems to be a lot of confusioin with term 'regenerated'. People like Macmac think regenerated resin is 'second hand, reused or refurbished' resin. In some cases this may be true - but you would know about it and you wouldn't be buying it directly from a resin manufacturer.
Manufactured resin such as Dowex, Purolite, etc is also regenerated because it is mixed bed resin. Mixed bed meaning there are a number of different types of resin in there. The regeneration is part of the process of making the resin.
"All it means is that the resin has been converted into its functional for. This is accomplished by regenerating the cation resin into the hydrogen form and the anion resin into the hydroxide form. As the resin in manufactured, it would not function properly as a mixed bed. "Highly" regenerated means that it is near 99% regenerated into the appropriate form so that it gives you higher purity water and better leakage for longer."
This is a direct quote from the lab of a resin manufacturer.
How do we explain the big difference in performance then foxman ( not wanting an argument either). I have proven it with my own tests that there is a massive difference between purolite & dowex. I'm talking about purolite purchased from cleantech, in a purolite branded bag between 2 & 4 years ago (mb400). The dowex just out-lasts it no doubt at all & also keeps a low tds for much, much longer which is perfect for twin di systems?
I regard the resin as being regenerated as the info i read on internet leads me to beleive that.
Tony
-
Just checked the tds of my oldest di vessel which i changed over on -11/02/08 ( so a month ago) When i changed it it was reading 001ppm, today it still only reads 003ppm :D & that's without shaking it. A rise of 002ppm in a month, try that with purolite :'(
That's a quality resin for you (dowex) no matter what the white collars say. ;)
Tony
-
Luke Johnson! Where are you? - can you report on your resin use!!? ;D
-
was thinking about this topic earlier (I reckon this forum is sending me slightly mad) and had a look at our ro and resin charts.
Since 06/09/07 we have used 169,000 litres of pure water. Both resin vessels were filled with fresh (DOWEX) resin on that date.
TDS in from RO is 007ppm (on average) and resin vessel 1 is only reading 002ppm and vessel 2 is 000ppm.
Tested with 2 handheld tds meters both calibrated last Monday evening.
Both vessels are about 19ltr but it took just over 100,000 litres to make vessel 1 rise from 000ppm to 001ppm then another 60,000 litres or so to go from 001ppm to 002ppm.
I'm quite happy with this as before with Purolite it only lasted for around 100,000litres before rising to 005ppm.
So really no contest as far as I can see.
And no Tony ain't paying me to say this isn't that right big boy!
-
was thinking about this topic earlier (I reckon this forum is sending me slightly mad) and had a look at our ro and resin charts.
Since 06/09/07 we have used 169,000 litres of pure water. Both resin vessels were filled with fresh (DOWEX) resin on that date.
TDS in from RO is 007ppm (on average) and resin vessel 1 is only reading 002ppm and vessel 2 is 000ppm.
Tested with 2 handheld tds meters both calibrated last Monday evening.
Both vessels are about 19ltr but it took just over 100,000 litres to make vessel 1 rise from 000ppm to 001ppm then another 60,000 litres or so to go from 001ppm to 002ppm.
I'm quite happy with this as before with Purolite it only lasted for around 100,000litres before rising to 005ppm.
So really no contest as far as I can see.
And no Tony ain't paying me to say this isn't that right big boy!
;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
It's about being in the know, to be honest i'm not too fussed with data/spec etc, sometimes it's like i'm trying to find a reason for the difference but hey, who cares, it's real, it works & it saves me & many others lots of money on resin & it's that what counts! ;)
Tony