Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: DASERVICES on February 24, 2008, 08:52:22 pm
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As a lot of you know have been involved in with SLWCN in Scotland and now we are getting good results.
Have been asked to help in England, the simple answer is yes it can be done.
So will in future help but has to be a majority vote , 65% yes.
Want to know your thoughts before I will commit any time, just a survey.
Ta
Doug
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I've given enough detailed explanations as to my views about this subject on CPs
The answer is YES
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For those of us with nothing to fear and legit businesses a big yes
For the good weather and dole boys a big no
should only be a big yes on here then ????
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Doug you know my thoughts on this subject and voted a big YES!
Only on the condition that we get value for our license fee, and the council don't just sit behind there desks playing with there pencils.
The only thing I don't like about this License issue is the need for councils to charge for each individual area, I work in 6 area's so that's 6 separate fee's I would have to pay.
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I agree with jeff
it will need to be policed with a vengeance
both from the council side and ours with a anonymity and enforcement that makes it a real deterrent to the summer and dole crowd
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I belive it could work!!
aslong as all the public no now a window cleaner has to be lincenced!!
because if they dont then nothing will happen unless its policed properly and i carnt really see that happning
what are the requirements in scotland to get a licence
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How much does the license in Scotland cost?
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http://www.slwcn.org/area.htm
We are working on the above.
What you need to consider is do you want to be Police checked or not, the licensed will have to have some conditions otherwise anyone can apply. What I would recommend is have to be registered with the Inland Revenue etc..
Will need around 100+ votes on this plus a lot of research, have got some powerful players but it will facts and figures etc...
It will have to be a trial basis in one area before it can be copied accross all England but you have the advantage, it's what you want but you have to consider what will keep out the beer brigade.
Will keep this running for a few weeks.
Doug
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bring it on the sooner the better imo , hopefully get shut of the dodgy cleaners & beer monsters . but like jeff1 says about each area needing a licence i work 8 diffrent areas so cost would be a big factor for some who do a few areas . SAYING THAT IF IT WAS POLICED PROPERLY it would maybe get rid of the dodgy ones so picking there work up would maybe compensate the cost .
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I know a bloke up the road from me, who's been on the dole for as long as I have lived here (15 years) and he's a w/c, his whole family have been in and out of nick, so whats going to stop this sort of guy flouting the license law? will it be enforced enough to stop him? I very much doubt it.
I would back this Licensing 100% if I knew it would be policed properly.
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The present government couldn't run a p... up in a brewery. It is a good idea in principle but Gordon Brown and his mates will just waste everyones money.
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The money does not go to the government, it goes to the industry ;)
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I voted no
Because i doubt very my no one will enforce it and would just be another money spinner for the council.
Paul
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The government don't even supply basic lifesaving equipment to our soldiers, such as bullet proof vests and armour for their Land Rovers, so what chance is there of them providing finance for "window cleaning licence checkers"
None I would have thought.
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Have been asked to help in England
Which trade association, if you dont mind me ask
Andy
PS i voted YES can only be good
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Just to point out this is your say, not Councils or goverment. You set criterias and agendas and KPI's which relevant Councils have to meet.
The key factor is KPI's , then you will win. For those who do not know Key Performance Indicators. For instance they have to meet 1000 checks in a year etc... The list goes on.
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Have been asked to help in England
Which trade association, if you dont mind me ask
Andy
PS i voted YES can only be good
No trade association, you will know why ;)
Just general window cleaners that want this, they are fed up of scrapping a living and to be paid what they are worth. The template is in Scotland, in a few months we will have this. We have data bases facts and figures.
It's worth a try as long as there is support.
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100% my support, as I have heard you have done good things in Scotland ;) as long as it does involve CM!
Andy
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I voted a definate yes
as long as its run and organised in the right way so we benefit the customer benefits and the council doesnt make all the pfofit
on a smaller note i would like to see more profiles fill in correctly such as the location
Brett
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to be totally honest I cannot decide yes or no
YES because it may help to deal with the ropey element for whom window cleaning is easy money.
NO because I dont trust local councils to run something like this properly. Also if it wasnt enforced it would be yet another tax on legit businesses
Got me split both ways this one has.
Doug, in Scotland. who decides if you cant get a licence? is it the local council? and what factors will make somebody disqualified?
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to be totally honest I cannot decide yes or no
YES because it may help to deal with the ropey element for whom window cleaning is easy money.
NO because I dont trust local councils to run something like this properly. Also if it wasnt enforced it would be yet another tax on legit businesses
Got me split both ways this one has.
Doug, in Scotland. who decides if you cant get a licence? is it the local council? and what factors will make somebody disqualified?
Couple of good points in there Tennet
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For those of us with nothing to fear and legit businesses a big yes
For the good weather and dole boys a big no
should only be a big yes on here then ????
There are other very good reasons for saying no which I have posted previously. I'm on the borders of threee counties and work in them all. Presumably I would be expected to buy three licences. I don't want the office control freaks ruining my business thanks.
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http://www.slwcn.org/area.htm
We are working on the above.
What you need to consider is do you want to be Police checked or not, the licensed will have to have some conditions otherwise anyone can apply. What I would recommend is have to be registered with the Inland Revenue etc..
Will need around 100+ votes on this plus a lot of research, have got some powerful players but it will facts and figures etc...
It will have to be a trial basis in one area before it can be copied accross all England but you have the advantage, it's what you want but you have to consider what will keep out the beer brigade.
Will keep this running for a few weeks.
Doug
The word Etc. could be a very big word. Could you please qualify what "etc" would mean in this instance?
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I know a bloke up the road from me, who's been on the dole for as long as I have lived here (15 years) and he's a w/c, his whole family have been in and out of nick, so whats going to stop this sort of guy flouting the license law? will it be enforced enough to stop him? I very much doubt it.
I would back this Licensing 100% if I knew it would be policed properly.
they need to know they have insurance jeff, before they even buy a license,enforcemet is the key,
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Definite yes to this one. I have doubts about enforcement but its still a great step forward.
Anything to stop the cowboys.
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Doug, in Scotland. who decides if you cant get a licence? is it the local council? and what factors will make somebody disqualified?
In Scotland,
Each individual goes through disclosure scotland and the Police will then recommend if the person is fit to hold a licence. They do not have the final say, the window cleaner can go in front of the licensing board and put his case forward that he is a fit person to hold a licence.
The benefit you guys have is this would be new so as a group you could work with the Council and set the rules and regulations. Like I said the key is KPI's, without that it will not work.
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Sorry, whats a KPI ?
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Key Performance Indicators - The Council need to be measured on how checks are made, how many are caught, public awareness etc...
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I'm against having a licence for different areas. Area wher ei live isn't that big but my partners father has work just up the road and it's anothe rcouncil. seems to be a lot of money for different areas and very unfair. Is this the only type of business where you need a licence for each different council apart from taxi drivers.
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Hi JSMC,
I would have agreed with you some time back but after looking into the whole of the Civic Act I can understand why there is a need for seperate licenses. We do acknowledge some Councils ae charging way over the odds for a licence which we will work on.
Window cleaners and taxi drivers are not the only trades that are covered by the civic act. You have wheelie bin cleaners, coffee vans, burger vans, mobile car valeters etc... all need a sperate licence if each area they operate.
As a business this will have little effect on us as we pass that cost onto our customers.
For example have just won a contract in Fife so I will now need to apply for a Fife licence. The cost of the licence was costed into the quote which the customer was happy in paying it. I fully made them aware about the licence, it's a good sales tool so you need to use it.
So what we really should be thinking about is running our business efficiently and factoring all costs in. There is no other businesses around that do not do this but unfortunately a lot of window cleaners will stick at same old pricing method that has been used for years, 25p per window etc...
Doug
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So......how much is a license?
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to be totally honest I cannot decide yes or no
YES because it may help to deal with the ropey element for whom window cleaning is easy money.
NO because I dont trust local councils to run something like this properly. Also if it wasnt enforced it would be yet another tax on legit businesses
Got me split both ways this one has.
Doug, in Scotland. who decides if you cant get a licence? is it the local council? and what factors will make somebody disqualified?
I agree with TennetClean above. (is that a first? :D)
My suspicion is that unless it was run perfectly and in a perfect world it would end up penalising the legitimate business owner.
On balance then I would have to vote NO.
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Yes in principle but no in practice. If i have to fork out on a couple of licences as well as my public liability insurance, my stamp, my tax, van insurance, water meter etc. and Joe Bloggs the dole cheat is still working the next house off his ladders for the same fee but nill stopages then i'll be even less happy! If it can be policed properly then yes please!
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Just a personal question DA Services.
Why are you so passionate about this subject? What got you into this area of window cleaning? Just curious :)
You must spend a lot of time promoting and working on this. Would your time have been better spent elsewhere, perhaps on your own business, building a bigger more efficient business.
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how much do window cleaners pay for SLWCN in Scotland ??
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I'm just wondering if any window cleaners from Scotland are voting in this poll. I would hope that this isn't the case but I suppose if it's good enough for Westminster......................... :)
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Just a personal question DA Services.
Why are you so passionate about this subject? What got you into this area of window cleaning? Just curious :)
You must spend a lot of time promoting and working on this. Would your time have been better spent elsewhere, perhaps on your own business, building a bigger more efficient business.
Hi Alex
You took the words out of my mouth ;D What Doug and others are doing is really commendible and for Scotland i think its the right thing as they already have the licence and its a case of making it work for legitimate cleaners. In England i would vote no because my feeling is that it would not be policed. Look at the wahd is that being policed? Also like you say it is a massive amount of work and would it not be better spent on building businesses?
Good luck though !!
Steve
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Doug,
Is the seperate license fee for any different area that we work? or is it just for each seperate council area covered by a seperate council.
What I'm getting at is the six area's I cover they are all covered by the same council.
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how much do window cleaners pay for SLWCN in Scotland ??
It's free to join and advertise as long as you are licensed.
We felt it would be ripping fellow window cleaners off if this was something that could not be done. But in future there will be some sort of joining fee which will have your insurance etc.. which it will make it worth while to join to cover costs etc..
The SLWCN will be a different association, members will have the final vote.
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Doug,
Is the seperate license fee for any different area that we work? or is it just for each seperate council area covered by a seperate council.
What I'm getting at is the six area's I cover they are all covered by the same council.
The licence is by council areas this is why i need 3 licences (Angus, Perth and Kinross and Dundee)3 fees and 3 police checks ironically i am police checked by one police force (tayside police)
Dean
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Doug,
Is the seperate license fee for any different area that we work? or is it just for each seperate council area covered by a seperate council.
What I'm getting at is the six area's I cover they are all covered by the same council.
Jeff,
We are charged by Council for example licence for Stirlingshire, Renfrewshire etc...
What you guys could ask for is licence for Yorkshire, Midlands etc...
With you guys you would have the advantage in being part of the set up, in Scotland we did not but trying to have a say now.
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OK, I have decided.
I would definitely vote NO.
Although it is a good idea in principle.
1st reason: licensing basically hands control of our livelihoods over to the local councils.
I could imagine the following happening:
hose pipe ban and councils/water companies etc come under fire for wasting water and get put under public pressure to do something instead of sitting on their backsides.
Now before, they could not stop a window cleaner working, only insist that he doesnt use water from the mains supply.
If they had licensing, they could scream emergency and suspend all window cleaning licenses, thereby preventing us from working. If questioned they would come out with the old "well its either that or we all go thirsty" crap. Also who is going to fight effectively for us if that happened. there is nobody. This is just an example to do with drought, it could be any other thing that comes along.
I do not like it. I dont like the way it all of a sudden gives councils the power to allow or to stop window cleaning as an activity if it suits them.
2nd reason
As far as I have been able to tell from the scottish system, the license entitlement as nothing at all to do with claiming benefits and is never cross-checked. Therefore it would not combat those who do window cleaning while claiming benefits, which is pretty much the whole point.
3rd reason
The criteria for getting a license seems to be very vague. Basically if some police bloke thinks your worthy. I do not think that is right. I would like to see the specific reasons why someone would be refused, not just because some copper makes a judgement. Not transparent enough for me.
No offense to the police, but they are there to enforce the law, not to act like some kind of grand supreme judge who can decided who is fit to run a particular business. I've known lots of coppers, and in the main they are decent blokes, but there are also some corrupt ones and little hitlers, just like any walk of life.
4th reason
Having a different license for EVERY area? That is just ridiculous. If the system cannot work without us having to pay several times for the same thing, then in my opinion it should NOT be used. This is totally ludicrous. I can imagine some people being granted a license in one area but refused it in another.
5th Reason
Who will police this? Will the money raised from the fees go to help policing it? As far as I have seen, most scottish window cleaners are constantly moaning that it isnt policed and therefore the whole thing is just an extra cost for legit businesses. The dossers flout the law and nobody cares, so whats the point? I have seen nothing to convince me that things would be any different in England.
So, they are my reasons for saying NO.
Out of interest Doug, why do you want to bring licensing to England? I would guess that, in spite of this pole (which I dont think is a fair sample of all window cleaners) most of us here would not want it, but that is just my opinion.
Not what I think, but some might say that rather than an effort to raise the standards in the industry, some would say that this is a "well we have to put up with it so why shouldn't you English" crusade?
-Mike Tennet
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OK, I have decided.
I would definitely vote NO.
Although it is a good idea in principle.
1st reason: licensing basically hands control of our livelihoods over to the local councils.
I could imagine the following happening:
hose pipe ban and councils/water companies etc come under fire for wasting water and get put under public pressure to do something instead of sitting on their backsides.
Now before, they could not stop a window cleaner working, only insist that he doesnt use water from the mains supply.
If they had licensing, they could scream emergency and suspend all window cleaning licenses, thereby preventing us from working. If questioned they would come out with the old "well its either that or we all go thirsty" crap. Also who is going to fight effectively for us if that happened. there is nobody. This is just an example to do with drought, it could be any other thing that comes along.
I do not like it. I dont like the way it all of a sudden gives councils the power to allow or to stop window cleaning as an activity if it suits them.
2nd reason
As far as I have been able to tell from the scottish system, the license entitlement as nothing at all to do with claiming benefits and is never cross-checked. Therefore it would not combat those who do window cleaning while claiming benefits, which is pretty much the whole point.
3rd reason
The criteria for getting a license seems to be very vague. Basically if some police bloke thinks your worthy. I do not think that is right. I would like to see the specific reasons why someone would be refused, not just because some copper makes a judgement. Not transparent enough for me.
No offense to the police, but they are there to enforce the law, not to act like some kind of grand supreme judge who can decided who is fit to run a particular business. I've known lots of coppers, and in the main they are decent blokes, but there are also some corrupt ones.
4th reason
Having a different license for EVERY area? That is just ridiculous. If the system cannot work without us having to pay several times for the same thing, then in my opinion it should NOT be used. This is totally ludicrous. I can imagine some people being granted a license in one area but refused it in another.
5th Reason
Who will police this? Will the money raised from the fees go to help policing it? As far as I have seen, most scottish window cleaners are constantly moaning that it isnt policed and therefore the whole thing is just an extra cost for legit businesses. The dossers flout the law and nobody cares, so whats the point? I have seen nothing to convince me that things would be any different in England.
So, they are my reasons for saying NO.
Out of interest Doug, why do you want to bring licensing to England? I would guess that, in spite of this pole (which I dont think is a fair sample of all window cleaners) most of us here would not want it, but that is just my opinion.
-Mike Tennet
I agree Mike,in time they would probobly put a pricing structure in place for us aswell and that wouldn`t do would it.
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I work in 6 different council areas at the moment and there is no way that I will be paying for 6 licences.
In Scotland they have this scheme, but how many are still unlicenced, in some areas it 90% and the majority is over 50%.
A licence WILL NOT stop the benefit cheats, if you want to stop them then all you have to do is report them to the DSS, they even have a freephone number so it won't cost you a penny.
We already have licences or taxes to pay, but how many cars are driven without tax every day, how many homes have no TV licence, the figure is 10's and 10's of thousands of people don't have of these and they are not all signing on. (The goverment scrapped the dog licence because it didn't work and nobody got one anyway)
Also remember when you cannot work because of a water drought order, you will still have to pay for a licence.
If you want to stop the cowboys, then make it an offence to employ them.
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The more I think about it the less I like it >:(
Bureaucracy is going mad these days why add to it.
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NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
Like lots of things in this world, in principle it all seems great. In practice how likely do you all think its going to work, will it work well? NO. And why won't it work well, because its the same people who cant run anything alse doing it. Do you want to put your livelihood in someone elses hands? I dont think so, I think some people should re consider this one, Luke
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The real way of combating small time cowboys on benefits is by making your own business more professional and better. Luke
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2nd reason
As far as I have been able to tell from the scottish system, the license entitlement as nothing at all to do with claiming benefits and is never cross-checked. Therefore it would not combat those who do window cleaning while claiming benefits, which is pretty much the whole point.
When they introduced licensing of minicabs in London the benefits fraud issue was one of the big selling points. It has never happened. Minicab drivers still flout the law and claim benefits while working. And a lot of the rest don't pay tax.
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Why do most of you want a licence? to stop the cowboys.
Instead of a licence scheme which will mean many window cleaners having to obtain several to trade, and which many will ignore.
Why not make it law that ALL tradesmen must have Public Liability Insurance, and to be able to get this cover you must give the insurance company your tax reference number, that way the general public are given safeguards and the legal window cleaners can trade effectively.
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Why do most of you want a licence? to stop the cowboys.
Instead of a licence scheme which will mean many window cleaners having to obtain several to trade, and which many will ignore.
Why not make it law that ALL tradesmen must have Public Liability Insurance, and to be able to get this cover you must give the insurance company your tax reference number, that way the general public are given safeguards and the legal window cleaners can trade effectively.
Now that would be a real benefit to everyone. :)
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2nd reason
As far as I have been able to tell from the scottish system, the license entitlement as nothing at all to do with claiming benefits and is never cross-checked. Therefore it would not combat those who do window cleaning while claiming benefits, which is pretty much the whole point.
When they introduced licensing of minicabs in London the benefits fraud issue was one of the big selling points. It has never happened. Minicab drivers still flout the law and claim benefits while working. And a lot of the rest don't pay tax.
This has now been sorted , taken from an application form :-
It may also be intimated to HM Revenue & Customs, and other Government departments and bodies.
http://www.fife.gov.uk/publications/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication.pop&pubid=0231D52D-9FD0-5671-35A70919C44C83C9
Most Councils have this on their forms now, if you look at the Councils Committee minutes often enough there has been a request by the Inland Revenue asking for details of new taxi drivers, window cleaners etc..
It is part of the new freedom of information act that anyone can see Council, Police minutes etc... This is being used to our advantage. I think this law has only been passed in Scotland.
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NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
Like lots of things in this world, in principle it all seems great. In practice how likely do you all think its going to work, will it work well? NO. And why won't it work well, because its the same people who cant run anything alse doing it. Do you want to put your livelihood in someone elses hands? I dont think so, I think some people should re consider this one, Luke
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Just general window cleaners that want this, they are fed up of scrapping a living and to be paid what they are worth. The template is in Scotland, in a few months we will have this. We have data bases facts and figures.
It's worth a try as long as there is support.
Doug, a question:
On the basis of what you have said, this SHOULD mean that because of licensing and it being harder for beer men to window clean in scotland that scottish window cleaners should earn more than us english who dont have licensing.
No offense, but I've been reading this forum for ages and I do not believe the scots earn more than the english, in fact I think its the other way around.
You say you are asking this, and maybe you'll soon be campaigning for this, because "just general window cleaners want this".
What general window cleaners are these? I find it very difficult to believe there are hordes of english window cleaners crying out to have bureaucracy, fees and police regulation forced upon them.
(I'm sure if you asked scottish window cleaners "do you think the english should have to be licensed" the answer would be yes!)
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What I want to know Doug is why you are worried about us 'English' window cleaners having this system. If we want it we will campaign for it politically! (or not) Why is a Scottish window cleaner campaigning for this in England? ???
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Would your time have been better spent elsewhere, perhaps on your own business, building a bigger more efficient business.
And that's just the sort of attitude that gives this industry the stigma it has.
A big part of the reason why APWC vanished and the FWC is dying on it's feet is because of this attitude.
If it's everyone for themselves then what is the point of internet forums where we help fellow cleaners.
Sometimes I just give up with this industry.
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Just general window cleaners that want this, they are fed up of scrapping a living and to be paid what they are worth.
(I'm sure if you asked scottish window cleaners "do you think the english should have to be licensed" the answer would be yes!)
WRONG
I voted NO!
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Would your time have been better spent elsewhere, perhaps on your own business, building a bigger more efficient business.
And that's just the sort of attitude that gives this industry the stigma it has.
A big part of the reason why APWC vanished and the FWC is dying on it's feet is because of this attitude.
If it's everyone for themselves then what is the point of internet forums where we help fellow cleaners.
Sometimes I just give up with this industry.
So how has this system benefited the average window cleaner in Scotland?
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I don't live there but I would hope (1) Mrs J Public would only use a licensed cleaner and (2) the dregs that blight this industry would eith (a) disappear all together or (b) be reduced in such a number that the odd one or two chancers wouldn't really matter anyway.
Every trade has it rogue element but this one suffers the most.
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Would your time have been better spent elsewhere, perhaps on your own business, building a bigger more efficient business.
And that's just the sort of attitude that gives this industry the stigma it has.
A big part of the reason why APWC vanished and the FWC is dying on it's feet is because of this attitude.
If it's everyone for themselves then what is the point of internet forums where we help fellow cleaners.
Sometimes I just give up with this industry.
So how has this system benefited the average window cleaner in Scotland?
I know licensed cleaners in my area and unlicensed cleaners. Some of those who are unlicensed are more professional and have a better well established business than those that have the license.
There are still cowboys and beer money workers even with the license in place!!!
If there is to be a license for window cleaners I believe that absolutely every and I mean EVERY trade should also have to have one.
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I'm for it on paper, but in the real world I'm against it. I would need 3 licences because I work 3 different council areas all on the borders just like Shiner. It would just be another waste of money for the council to demand from us with the proceeds going anywhere but where it's suppose to.
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Tennat,
We defenately do not earn more, some areas you can get a good price where it is policed properly. In other areas the guys are struggling just to get £3.50 a house because there are a lot that work on the side that are keeping prices down.
The issue with the licence up here if it was enforced and public awareness then it would be the best system around. What we have asked the Councils is if you force us to be licensed by law then you must return the service back. Otherwise scrap the licence, the result has been the opposite as the Councils do not want to loose face.
This is our livelyhood and so therefore we have all got together and worked with the Councils to resolve this. As you know everyone knows what goes on in their areas so the Enforcement Officers are asking licensed window cleaners to work with them and they will sort the problem out. They are all for helping us out so and enforcement is pretty easy.
If someone came round and took your customers away doing the windows for peanuts and was on the dole would you stand back and let your livelyhood disappear. Everything we have done is within the law, we have questioned it and Councils now recognise they have no choice but to start enforcing it.
Window cleaning prices are still in the dark ages so the only thing that will drive then up if everyone was on the same level, licensed and insured. What we have to recognise anyone that operates in Scotland where a licence is require is breaking the law. It is not up to me or the SLWCN to resolve but the Councils and the Police to do their job, that is all we have been asking.
Some very interesting comments but in reflection on your answers the major stumbling block is trust, you cannot trust the Councils to do their job which I can fully understand. The laws in Scotland have changed which gives us a greater say.
Edinburgh, Stirling, Renfrewshire, South Lanarkshire and Fife have now taken great steps in resolving the problems. Highlands, West Lothian will soon follow. These Councils never did anything and now have changed so it shows change can take place if it is a combined effort.
The SLWCN is not about me, it is about the 1000+ licence holders with a lot now joining the SLWCN.
Things will not improve as individuals it needs to be a collective voice, who can do that in England probably no one. But we can sit here and moan about the beer brigade but to sort the industry out it needs changing.
Thanks for your replies guys, sorry if I gave the wrong impression that I wanted licensing in England. Was only going to give my guidance on how it could be accomplished but that would be a huge task. Not for me though.
The reasons why I have posted SLWCN news on hear is to keep all window cleaners in Scotland and England ( the ones that cross the border ) updated as the tide is changing. Would not want to hear xxxx was taken to court for not having a licence. Better to know then not to know . With some Councils we have asked them to scrap the licence as their set up is as good as selling sand to the Arabs.
This does not benefit me in any way, it benefits those who are struggling to make ends meet.
Many thanks
Doug
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and I mean EVERY trade should also have to have one.
But how many other trades just wonder onto private property without the owners knowledge?
Ok so a few get the day before phone call but most just come home to find the envelope and 'windows cleaned today slip.'
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Tennat,
Sorry was not relating the whole message to yourself. Just typed it in one to cover all replies.
Regards
Doug
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Sure doug no problem,
also I did not mean to imply that you were doing anything for the wrong reasons, I think that you have worked hard to make the system you are burdened with work better. If I was up there in scotland I would be grateful for your efforts
But, its obvious that licensing has caused lots of probs up there, and I dont think it is a good idea to set up a similar bad system in england.
If someone came round and took your customers away doing the windows for peanuts and was on the dole would you stand back and let your livelyhood disappear. Everything we have done is within the law, we have questioned it and Councils now recognise they have no choice but to start enforcing it.
This already happens doug, I have seen loads of eastern european guys starting up and they are willing to work for "tuppence" (ha yes, they really are tuppencecleaners matt). They arent doing it becasue they're claiming benefits, but because they can afford to work for not much cash. Nothing wrong with that, good luck to em, everyone has the right to earn a living. (I'm not getting into a debate about if they should be allowed in or not, the fact is, THEY'RE HERE!)
The only way to deal with that is to compete on quality, and I have found this very successful.
Personally i dont think that the beer brigade is THAT much of an issue where I am (coventry) and also good window cleaners will always stand out and do well, beer brigade or not IMO.
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I'm not for more bureaucracy in any way shape or form.
It's commendable what you're doing doug but maybe you should be asking this question in 5 years time if/when Scotland has it running properly.
There is a lot of merit in the idea but until it can be seen to be run effectively and for the benefit of wc it is just another tax.
I would also like to know what past sins would disqualify us from gaining a license, because as we are not doing a life threatening job, couldn't a license refusal be challenged as an infringement of our right to work.
If it was habitual burglars or violent predators, then yes keep them away from the decent public. But having an unelected person decide my fate while my taxes are contributing towards his wages would make me choke on my cornflakes if he wasn't with me.
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Doug,
Is the seperate license fee for any different area that we work? or is it just for each seperate council area covered by a seperate council.
What I'm getting at is the six area's I cover they are all covered by the same council.
The licence is by council areas this is why i need 3 licences (Angus, Perth and Kinross and Dundee)3 fees and 3 police checks ironically i am police checked by one police force (tayside police)
Dean
So it's done by towns/cities rather than counties. For me that would mean a lot more than three licence fees then. It might be possible for a larger business to carry such an ongoing expense but I'm a sole trader. Although I earn quite well at times, I have to in order to repay old debts. Licensing fees at around £100 - £200 per year per area would mean perhaps a grand a year (or more) directly out of my turnover. OK so it would be tax deductible but I don't think that's really the point. Another issue is that suddenly I would be faced with detached office workers deciding whether I am allowed to carry on the profession that I've been doing for the past 17 years. So I do have convictions that are long since spent and very unlikely to be the type of convictions that would affect an application. I have mentioned it before but I was the victim of a road rage incident some time back - thankfully all verbal. At one point, it looked like I was going to be physically assaulted. If I had needed to physically defend myself, I could have been on an assault charge as there were no witnesses. Assault is regarded quite seriously by the courts. Because some idiot wanted to have a go at me, I could have lost my W/C license (if they existed) for committing an assault in the act of defending myself. It's no real consolation to me that I could appear in front of a panel of prodnosed busybodies to beg for my livelihood back either (probably suspended from working pending the hearing).
I used to be mildly against licensing. My view has hardened over time. I believe it's more a device for restricting the numbers of window cleaners so that the licensed can earn more money (supply and demand).
Although I find that window cleaning can be well paid when I apply myself, probably the best bit about it is the relative freedom I have to work when I want, WHERE I want.
I do not believe that licensing in England would be practical because:
1) It probably would not be adequately policed to filter out dole cheats etc.
2) It would be treated as an extra tax.
3) If it did become adequately policed, the cost of policing it would be ringfenced resulting in much higher license fees once the practice was established (N.B. with resident only parking areas, the cost of extra traffic wardens is met by charging residents for annual parking permits thus ringfencing the costs. Central government paid for the white lining and receive all revenue from the fines). I've no reason to believe that a W/C license would be treated any differently from resident parking areas in terms of ringfencing the money.
4) Licensing would be used as a big stick with which to beat the honest window cleaners.
5) One relatively benign transgression against the law could be used to remove someone's entire source of income. It's no good saying it couldn't happen to you either. We can all make mistakes or be found guilty of something that we haven't done. It could easily turn out that the type of offence that could stop a social worker, care worker, policeman, fireman, school teacher from working, could also be used against window cleaners in the same way - even though the level of responsibility and the degree of association with a customer is at a very different level. Although it could be argued that each case coiuld be judged on its own merits, would you trust them some unelected, unaccountable panel in a council chamber to make the right decision? I don't. Even with the prospect of not being re-elected, the elected and the accountable frequently make glaring blunders so what hope for those who are not held to account for their errors?
6) If the principle of licensing were to be applied to many more trades, it would be a great way of controlling millions of (self-employed) people at a stroke i.e. don't engage in legitimate protest against any government policies because you might get randonly pulled out of a demonstration, arrested, suffer trumped up charges to justify the arrest, and lose your livelihood. Not so fanciful really as I went on a few demos in my younger days. The ones arrested weren't the illegal ones who were throwing bricks from the back but the ones at the front pushed forward by the crush.
OK so some of what I've written is unlikely to happen but other bits of it are real possibilities.
I do have some sympathy with why many would like a license to come into being. I understand that having too many dole cheats working as window cleaners can hold the rates down even if your own customers aren't directly targetted. Traditionally this has happened more in areas of higher unemployment such as Scotland and the North of England and I live in the Southeast where perhaps we haven't usually had higher levels of unemployment (although the early to mid 90s was pretty bad). So I do understand the concerns of people and it could get worse in my area too if, as predicted, the economy is heading into a recession/depression. But I do feel strongly that a window cleaning license is the sledgehammer to crack the nut. There is already a mechanism in place to catch dole cheats and illegal workers. We already pay for that out of general taxation. It probably has limited effect. I doubt that any license policing would be policed more diligently than what's already in place.
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I'm not for more bureaucracy in any way shape or form.
It's commendable what you're doing doug but maybe you should be asking this question in 5 years time if/when Scotland has it running properly.
There is a lot of merit in the idea but until it can be seen to be run effectively and for the benefit of wc it is just another tax.
I would also like to know what past sins would disqualify us from gaining a license, because as we are not doing a life threatening job, couldn't a license refusal be challenged as an infringement of our right to work.
If it was habitual burglars or violent predators, then yes keep them away from the decent public. But having an unelected person decide my fate while my taxes are contributing towards his wages would make me choke on my cornflakes if he wasn't with me.
I just want to add that I wrote and posted my post before reading Mark Dew's post above.
Sounds like we are thinking along similar lines.
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Doug
Can you answer a few questions
1 How long has the licence been in use in Scotland and why, and who brought it into law.
2 How many legal window cleaners (those who pay income tax) have been caught without a licence
3 How many illegal window cleaners ( those who don't pay income tax like illegal immigrants and benefit cheats also the paye worker whose doing it part time but doesnt declare this income to the tax man) have been caught without a licence.
4 How many window cleaners have taken up Public Liability Insurance, or have gone on Heath & Safety Courses.
5 What real benefits have the average window cleaner got from this licence scheme that they did not have before it was introduced.
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100% YES
wether it will work or not is another matter?
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In principle I would like to see some kind of regulation brought to our industry. Maybe have it as a recognised trade?
Again as other people have already stated how is it policed? The WAHD has not and is not being policed! that is fact as there appear to be more and more people out with their Crappy ladders and buckets stuck in the middle on top of there cars.
This is wrong. I would like to see proper enforcement regarding the use of ladders and which type to start with. I do like the idea of cross checking p/l insurance with tax records or some kind of ID scheme. wHICH when i do employ I will be producing.
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William,
Answers to your questions
1) This is as far back as I can find, taken from a book on the Civic Act :-
There was no general provision in respect of window cleaners requiring a licence prior to the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982, other than in local Acts. An example that is quoted is the Edinburgh Act 1967, sec. 409.
A Working Party recommended that this was to be an optional activity under the Act and that there was a crime prevention interest as window cleaners were unique in normally needing to have access to the inside and rear of domestic premises.
In summary Edinburgh were the first to introduce under a local act then was introduced throughout Scotland in the Civic Act 1982
2) With the Councils that have Enforcement Officers yes, big names likes of Mitie have been caught. The Police do not have any records of who has been caught, have asked this question.
3) Yes indviduals have been caught and fined, have heard where one individual was arrested whilst doing window cleaning, he had a criminal record. The Police do prosecute those who are caught, if there details are passed onto the Inland Revenue I do not know
4) None there are no courses here in Scotland, the FED used to run them for their members but no longer do. I am aware that the HSE have run a few courses but did not invite the window cleaning trade. This is something the SLWCN will address in the future
5) Where it has been enforced they do have the benefits of high prices. This is one of the major issues we are tackling with the Councils, it must be publicised.
All of the above issues we hope to start resolving tomorrow. We have a major meeting with the Council and Police tomorrow and local window cleaners as well. The Police and Councils will be releasing manpower to go out in the field to find out the real problems within our Industry. There are a lot of things we will be bringing up, one of them the Council should be informing the Inland Revenue of those caught and this will hopefully deter the likes of the beer brigade.
Tomorrow is a huge turning point within our Industry, if we get this right then it will benefit all within the trade.
For your information going through documents etc..the FED did approach the English Parliament in getting licensing introduced in England.
This is our first report we did to one of the Councils, please be fair with us as it was our first attempt, other reports are now in more detail :- http://www.slwcn.org/Report%20on%20unlicensed%20window%20cleaners%20for%20city%20of%20Edinburgh.pdf
Cheers
Doug
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Shiner i think i may have mislead you slightly the licence is for council areas not just towns the 3 i mention are the names of the councils i need to apply to to get a licence for the areas i work
Dean
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Doug
Who asked you to help in England ?
If you get it can you ask for an dispensation for the Southwest as i work in at least 8 council areas.
My thoughts would be to leave it alone.
Dave
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Heres something I have heard nobody mention. Yes Scotland is large size wise but in comparison to England it has a tiny population:
Population of England, Nr Ireland, Scotland and Wales as of 2006:
60,587,600
Population of each individual country:
England:50,762,900
Nr Ireland:1,741,600
Scotland:5,116,900
Wales:2,965,900
So Englands population is 10 times more than Scotlands, that means 10 times if not alot more Window Cleaners. Do you really think this would work properly? Luke
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Dave,
Sorry no names, but do not worry I will not be getting involved ;)
It will take an army to sort out England, too many minefields.
What I would say never say never that this will not come, I do a lot of searching into Council Committee Records and have seen a couple relating to problems with bogus window cleaners in the area and then the mention that window cleaners are not licensed except in Scotland etc....
Not saying they will do anything but keep an eye out, if it does come then be ready as a body to step in so you don't have the same problems we have had here in Scotland. To be honest I don't think they would introduce it but it would just take one then the rest will follow.
There are a couple of Councils sites with window cleaners licence, one of them I remember was Carlisle.
Once again don't worry will not get involved but very interesting debate.
Cheers
Doug
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Nearly 84 per cent of the total population of the United Kingdom lives in England. So thats going to be 80+ per cent of the Window Cleaners in the UK. This is a whole different story to Scotland and from what I can see from your own data D.A.Services the scheme is failing. I dont live in England ( Wales ) so I am neutral, but I very much dislike the idea at the moment, Luke
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If there is to be a window cleaning licence scheme, like in Scotland, then surly it would be in the Window Cleaning industry interests to have one that works.
At the moment it does not work in Scotland.
If they do get it to work and window cleaners across all borders see that it is their interests to have it, then that is the time, not now when its not working, even after over 20 years of it being in operation.
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A proper clampdown on benefit cheats, whether working in window cleaning, minicabbing, or whatever would be a much better place to start.
This country is paying out billions to scroungers who prove they shouldn't be on the dole by working as well.
Its huge, why do we stand for it? The government do nothing about it because its easier to do nothing.
But it affects us all.
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Wouldn't self regulation be a better option for u.k. window cleaners.
National Licence for the entire country for window cleaners who can produce tax clearance and el & pl and proper valid up to date safety statements and are compiling risk assesment and method statements safe contractor registration and any other valid documentation. Call it The Master Craftsmans Window Cleaners Association or some such. There would have to be a written code of conduct.
In the absence of some self regulation there will aventually be some regulation imposed, so all those of you that are against Licence should consider the best ways to ensure that it doesn't happen.
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I think there is a popular misconseption about cowboy window cleaners, I think other trades suffer a lot worse.
Where i live and work i dont know any cowboys, i have travelled the country and met 100s of window cleaners and i must say 99% seem genuine and look like they are legit.
I dont think the general public tolerate dodgy characters, so if they do turn up they are generaly not around for long.
I think it would be far simpler to ban cold calling, that way you could only build a decent business through reccommendations and advertising, which the rogue element would struggle with both ways.
I now run a sizeable business which has been built on trust, reccommendations and advertising, in 10 years i have very rarely knocked on a door, maybe the odd next door to where i was already working if i found out some one new had just moved in.
Come on give us window cleaners a break, we are not an all round bad bunch, there are just some old fashioned misconseptions usually in the minds of some media outlets which have given our trade bad press in the past.
In all my days never have i felt mis-trusted etc by any customer.
Dave
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im undecided
on 1 hand you have, YES, it will keep the eastern europeans who will do a 10 quid house for 4 quid as they dont pay tax etc etc
NO, because i know the council will not bother to enforce it, ive worked for the council as a carpenter and i know what they are like, this will be the case, they will give some1 a part time job ( say 15 hours a week ) who will sit at a desk ( or even work from home ) and not be out on the road checking, they will spend the time puching around paper and watching the clock
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I take everyones views about Council and know what obstacles that can be faced but there is always a way around it.
Today's meeting was a breath of fresh air, it was the first time that licensed window cleaners can now see change coming.
The Council are now bending over backwards in working with the SLWCN and its members. In todays meeting the Council invited the Town Centre Manager who will now will be discussing this with local shops and supermarkets. The Police were also represented and it took some persuation and in the end they will be lauching an operation.
The next meeting other Police representatives will be attending and local industry will be invited.
One thing us licensed window cleaners have acknowledged is that we have to work with the local authorities.
In summary it can be done and now we will await the results on what impact it will have on our industry.
One last word for Dave, if you heard the experiences today you would then see action needs to be taken and finally it is.
Many thanks for your comments.
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Doug
I agree action was needed in Scotland you had lisencing which seemed to be in dissaray.
So well done.
Dave
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People are still voting yes :o
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and so they should :)
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Heres something I have heard nobody mention. Yes Scotland is large size wise but in comparison to England it has a tiny population:
Population of England, Nr Ireland, Scotland and Wales as of 2006:
60,587,600
Population of each individual country:
England:50,762,900
Nr Ireland:1,741,600
Scotland:5,116,900
Wales:2,965,900
So Englands population is 10 times more than Scotlands, that means 10 times if not alot more Window Cleaners. Do you really think this would work properly? Luke
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im undecided
on 1 hand you have, YES, it will keep the eastern europeans who will do a 10 quid house for 4 quid as they dont pay tax etc etc
NO, because i know the council will not bother to enforce it, ive worked for the council as a carpenter and i know what they are like, this will be the case, they will give some1 a part time job ( say 15 hours a week ) who will sit at a desk ( or even work from home ) and not be out on the road checking, they will spend the time puching around paper and watching the clock
A licence scheme, is not going to stop the Eastern Europeans from working for peanuts, they will have a licence because they are legally allowed to work anywhere in the EC, and they will charge less than a Uk citizen because all they want to do is earn and save some money, then return home, hopefully to a better life.
An illegal worker has a choice, he can steal and commit crime or work illegally just so he can eat and survive. what option would you do if you were him? and would a Window Cleaning Licence scheme deter you?.
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im undecided
on 1 hand you have, YES, it will keep the eastern europeans who will do a 10 quid house for 4 quid as they dont pay tax etc etc
NO, because i know the council will not bother to enforce it, ive worked for the council as a carpenter and i know what they are like, this will be the case, they will give some1 a part time job ( say 15 hours a week ) who will sit at a desk ( or even work from home ) and not be out on the road checking, they will spend the time puching around paper and watching the clock
A licence scheme, is not going to stop the Eastern Europeans from working for peanuts, they will have a licence because they are legally allowed to work anywhere in the EC, and they will charge less than a Uk citizen because all they want to do is earn and save some money, then return home, hopefully to a better life.
An illegal worker has a choice, he can steal and commit crime or work illegally just so he can eat and survive. what option would you do if you were him? and would a Window Cleaning Licence scheme deter you?.
BUT
a man in a uniform ( traffic warden style ) checking he has a licence just might put him off doing it long term and that would surely help the legit guys who pay tax etc etc
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It hasn't stopped the bogus taxi driver, and their are thousands of uniforms about.
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All this licencing malarky is just some people wanting to be busy-bodies. We've got enough bureaucracy in this country without the the need for yet more red tape that will be nigh on impossible to either police or enforce.
Licencing will just penalise the legit guys. The dole men and cash only merchants will carry on regardless.
Also there must be plenty of legit guys who just about make a living from w/c and pay their tax and NI. Bring in licencing and suddenly these guys will be tempted to go over to the dark side....and frankly I couldn't blame them!
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It would just be another needless expense, I vote a big NO! >:(
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I've just had a look at the SLWCN website. Under Licensing by Area I see that around half the w/c up there are still unlicensed, although East Renfrewshire Council have 77% unlicensed, Edinburgh 82%, Fife 70%, Glasgow 93%...the list goes on!!
So it's hardly been a roaring success since it's introduction in March 2006.
If it's obviously not working oop north what makes anyone think it'll work down south?
I bet the guys who have licensed themselves and are paying the various Councils fees are now kicking themselves when they look at the SLWCN statistics and see the number of "cowboys" who are merrily working away without a license and saving themselves a fair few £ into the bargain.
Too late guys: I think it might be hard to de-register now that you're on the Councils books.
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Simon, SLWCN is now a success. I would say your comment was correct some time back but we now know more than the Councils ;)
It has taken a long time in coming but we had to do a lot of research etc...
Name me one association that has managed to get the Police, Council, City Centre Manager all around the table.
Yes it was not working but it will. Why because all licensed window cleaners are working together. SLWCN is not about individuals it's everyone that is licensed and that is why it will work.
It has been one hard slog but we have got there in the end. The fix will not be over night but it will come. And the membership is now increasing with new members each day as everyone now has belief that change is coming.
Soon there will be a number published to report unlicensed window cleaners, and the operator will not know what has hit them ;)
The Councils have given the SLWCN their full backing and are now working with the SLWCN in publishing a leaflet urging householders to check the list of licenced window cleaners. There is a lot of other things happening but these will be released after futher meetings which we will be holding.
That is how far we have come, and another note we are asking them to sell wfp with regards H&S issues to help those who have invested in wfp. The list goes on.
I undersatnd all the negative thoughts but there is always a way, you just need to look for it.
Cheers
Doug
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Doug
What figures do you have regarding those window cleaners who have been caught without a licence.
Were they taken to court? what size was their fine or were they sent to prison, if so for how long or were they let off with a caution.
Also how many of them have carried on working without a licence even thogh they have been caught before?.
And most importantly, how many customers have sacked their unlicenced cleaner and now use a licenced one instead?.
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Hi William,
We have no figures as we asked this question which went to the Police Forces Unit. Civic crimes are not recorded.
There have been some people taken to court where they were fined etc.. but speaking to the enforcement officer some still carried on working.
In West Lothian we worked with the Council and distributed some leaflets, this did have an impact with people ringing the Council and then sacking their window cleaner.
All parties have acknowledged that there needs to be change, one of which is the Police will be speaking to Crown Office if on the spot fines can be done for example £100. The law does state that you can fine the person upto a a max of £2000.
The Council are all for making the public aware which will be first started with a leaflet campaign and then followed by a press release. The key to this is getting the public on our side, this is what the Council, Police and SLWCN will be working on in the next coming months.
It's going to be trial and error until we find what works, there are still other areas of the licence that needs to be addressed like prices etc...
It's not the perfect system at present but if run properly it will be the best system around and even unlicensed window cleaners would be all for it. Their main gripe is why pay for something if it does not work but if it did they would be all for it.
The key to this is public knowledge, we will not win them all over but if we managed then to value their window cleaner and pay him what he is worth then we will have accomplished a lot.
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Personally I do not think that a licence is needed, but if it is to happen then there are parts that need changing.
There is only 1 licence and you can work anywere in the UK with it.
Courses in Health & Safety are a part of it.
The licence also has to cover the tools that the cleaner uses, for example wfp uses must have their water tanks fixed to their vechcle safely and ladder men must use ladders that are fit for the purpose and safety devices are used with them.
The licence fee must not be a way for the authorities to make money, any profits from it must be returned to the window cleaning industry.
If a window cleaner has a crinimal record, then that must not be an automatic refusal of the licence.
A training programme must also be part of the licence, that way the customers knows that their cleaner is capable of doing the job correctly.
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Doug
Have you considered becoming a trade association ?.
Dave
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Hi William totally agree, with our licence we have to abide by HSE regulations but as we all know HSE don't even know what that is.
With regards to crimes in the past the Council cannot take into consideration spent convictions as it goes against the rehib act.
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Dave,
We are looking into something as we are now coming too big, our expectation is we will have around 2-300 members in the next few months.
On the other hand it's costing us money but we had to make sure this was a winnable case which it is now. We have a few things in the pipeline but it will be around April before we get things moving.
To date it has been a fact and probing mission but now it is going big.
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Simon, SLWCN is now a success. I would say your comment was correct some time back but we now know more than the Councils ;)
It has taken a long time in coming but we had to do a lot of research etc...
Name me one association that has managed to get the Police, Council, City Centre Manager all around the table.
Yes it was not working but it will. Why because all licensed window cleaners are working together. SLWCN is not about individuals it's everyone that is licensed and that is why it will work.
It has been one hard slog but we have got there in the end. The fix will not be over night but it will come. And the membership is now increasing with new members each day as everyone now has belief that change is coming.
Soon there will be a number published to report unlicensed window cleaners, and the operator will not know what has hit them ;)
The Councils have given the SLWCN their full backing and are now working with the SLWCN in publishing a leaflet urging householders to check the list of licenced window cleaners. There is a lot of other things happening but these will be released after futher meetings which we will be holding.
That is how far we have come, and another note we are asking them to sell wfp with regards H&S issues to help those who have invested in wfp. The list goes on.
I undersatnd all the negative thoughts but there is always a way, you just need to look for it.
Cheers
Doug
Hi Doug,
I was just taking figures off the website. If the website is inaccurate and doesn't show the correct figures then perhaps it needs to be up-dated.
Rgds
Simon
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Doug
Maybe put a donation button on your site, after all the licensed window cleaners are to benefit , so should have an option to contribute financially.
Dave
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why do the councils charge differently and why more cost equals less take up
what happens to the unlicenced
if they are caught working on spot fine or your squeegee taken away or nothing ,nada ,nought ,nish you decide
my guss nothing it is arod for our opwn backs if not p;oliced properly
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Hi Simon,
We have only got to the stage where they have agreed to take action so hopefully in 6 months or so the figures will have doubled with unlicensed window cleaners.
Dave,
Thanks for the idea , will try and set it up.
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Doug
Have you tried contacting Unger, Ettore etc for sponsorship.
If you need contact details i have a list as long as your arm.
Dave
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Will be speaking to a few at Windex but would appreciate any help, you have my mail.
Thanks
Doug
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A licence no way.
An inland revenue register of window cleaners OK.
If the tax man wants his cut from us all, then it's in his interest to have a register of all window cleaners. Give all of us a registration number that we can put on our windscreens, and on our correspondence.
Make it illegal to trade unregistered.
One registration number lets you trade in any area.
They bare the expense, and they reap the rewards.
We pay nothing but the taxes due.
What could be more simple than that?
Problem sorted. Dai
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A licence no way.
An inland revenue register of window cleaners OK.
If the tax man wants his cut from us all, then it's in his interest to have a register of all window cleaners. Give all of us a registration number that we can put on our windscreens, and on our correspondence.
Make it illegal to trade unregistered.
One registration number lets you trade in any area.
They bare the expense, and they reap the rewards.
We pay nothing but the taxes due.
What could be more simple than that?
Problem sorted. Dai
I'll end up with so many things stuck on my windscreen that I won't be able to see where I'm going . Maybe I'll drive better. ;D .