Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Nathanael Jones on February 20, 2008, 11:50:38 pm
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Well,.. I've been reading about it for ages, and been learning from the pioneers of DIY hot (Thank you Mr Solubility!),.. and I've finally decided to take the plunge.
My heater is ordered, I've a registered gas installer lined up to fit it in my van, and I'm even getting a logo designed for the vehicle livery to promote the new "HOT" system!
The costs are actually surprisingly small so far,.. especially when compared to a branded hot retrofit,.. but I've still a few more bits and pieces to buy.
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I'd be interested to hear how you get on with your new hot system out of curiosity.
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Well,.. I've been reading about it for ages, and been learning from the pioneers of DIY hot (Thank you Mr Solubility!),.. and I've finally decided to take the plunge.
My heater is ordered, I've a registered gas installer lined up to fit it in my van, and I'm even getting a logo designed for the vehicle livery to promote the new "HOT" system!
The costs are actually surprisingly small so far,.. especially when compared to a branded hot retrofit,.. but I've still a few more bits and pieces to buy.
hi there
where are you ordering the parts from and what elce do you need to make it work ??
rhys
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What heater are you going with? :)
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I went for this one:
http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120223665571&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=002
It'll handle 100 PSI pressure no prob, has a VERY low minimum flow rate, can be connected to a flue and vented outside the vehicle (unlike many of these type of heaters), and lets face it,... its really really cheap! With the express shipping included, it cost me €206!!!
There have been comments that this heater doesn't have a CE mark,.. but I did a bit of research, and it doesn't seem to be a legal requirement for propane powered heaters, and it does have ISO 9001 and UKAS accreditation, so I'm willing to try it.
Its 62,000 BTU at max output, so it'd easily heat a 2 man setup. I'll be using it turned down very lov, and with a thermostatic check valve in place too!
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you know you dont need a gas fitter to do the connecting dont you?
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Thats a great idea that heater let us know how it goes.
May get one myself.
Paul
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you know you dont need a gas fitter to do the connecting dont you?
I thought it was the law? That being said,... there's millions of gas BBQ's in the world that don't need a pro to connect up the pipe, and this is hardly different. I've a buddy who is qualified anyway, so I'll get him to do it,... but if it isn't a legal requirement it would be good to know.
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there must be laws about the carring of lpg of this type, does anyone know what they are. also how long do you think the gas will last and how much does it cost etc, im quite interested in this subject and it would be interesting to know some details
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the law states, as long as you are competent you can do it your self
but the term competent cannot be quantified, your just tightening a few nuts bolts etc etc, its not different from connecting the screw to barb to your pump with some ptfe, you see no water leak, you see no problem
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its the same as fitting the pipe to your BBQ regulator
the law sates you have to have warning triangles aswell
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looks like just the job. but will you be replacing gas bottles all the time?
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sounds a great idea. let us know how you get on. whats the running costs? and how long will the gas last?
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I'm so jealous i want hot water system and i want it now its so unfair
Dean
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dont know if its true, but I've been told that the pump has a max working temp, above that the seals go or something
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dont know if its true, but I've been told that the pump has a max working temp, above that the seals go or something
it must be below the temps we want, as how does the other hot water systems work ?? ? ?
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Hot system. What's the point? I'm not knocking it, I just want to know :) I've just been reading the thread that asks if wfp cleaned windows really stay cleaner longer. The consensus seems to be no. So what are the (supposed) benefits of a hot system? Surely this is not another case of over complicating the business of cleaning windows.
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The main point of a hot system is for days like this last week where the water froze in the pipes, on the brush head and on the windows. We couldn't get out to do any wfp work before 10:30am on Monday/Tuesday or Wednesday, cost to the business........several hundred pounds.
Would it be possible to fit a heater into the main water tank and heat the whole tank of water instead of putting it in-line?
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there is no need for the Heated water to pass through the pump,
you have it like this:
tank hose pump hose heater hose reel
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the law states, as long as you are competent you can do it your self
but the term competent cannot be quantified, your just tightening a few nuts bolts etc etc, its not different from connecting the screw to barb to your pump with some ptfe, you see no water leak, you see no problem
if the pump leaks stuff gets wet ...it dont go bang ....not stirring up trouble just my opinionHot system. What's the point? I'm not knocking it, I just want to know :) I've just been reading the thread that asks if wfp cleaned windows really stay cleaner longer. The consensus seems to be no. So what are the (supposed) benefits of a hot system? Surely this is not another case of over complicating the business of cleaning windows.
thats pretty much my opinion too
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Ian, Thanks for that.
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dont know if its true, but I've been told that the pump has a max working temp, above that the seals go or something
Most pumps will survive temps of 60 deg C, but check your pump first to be sure. I'm going to place the pump before the heater anyway, so I'll only ever have cold water going through it.
I will have a bypass valve fitted, so I can re-circulate hot water back to the main tank, but this will just be used on very cold nights. A temp of 25 deg C over 400 litres would be plenty enough to keep the van frost free overnight.
As for running costs,.. I'm told by someone with a similar system approx £1 per day. Gas bottles cost €25 by me, so I expect to get 3 weeks out of a bottle minimum,... probably double that since I won't use the heater on regular cleans. I do get a lot of one off's and irregular commercial stuff where hot would be an advantage to me personally though.
The law in Ireland for carrying a gas cylinder in a vehicle is very basic. Once the cylinder is secured and upright, thats all you need. In the UK, warning stickers must be displayed prominently on the outside of the vehicle to warn emergency services in the event of an accident etc,... and I personally will be putting stickers on my van even though I don't have to,... its just sensible IMO.
As for fitting it,... as has been said,.. water only leaks,.. Gas explodes,.. I'm going to take the safe option and get a pro to do it for me!
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Yea I can really see hot wfp working on first cleans, with minging frames, and green upvc, also conservatory roofs would cut through the grime very easily.
I think in 2 years time many many people on here will be hot wfp, either diy or retrofit. In the beginning people were supersceptic about wfp. Now almost everyone on here has it. I think the high cost of retrofit would put a lot of people off, but if we can have more people like mr. Jones here, then DIY might be a lot more explained on the forums, and easier to do.
Am I right in saying Nathanael, that a Propane heater is much much easier to DIY install then a Diesel heater? Or is the difference not that big? I'd say it sounds easier, doesn't diesel need an exhaust pipe aswell or something? Or is it not combustion type heating? I'm sure it's not, but just a bit confused, there's not a lot of stuff to go on.
What would you say helped you learn about hot wfp? Do you have any favorite threads on here, or articles to read that explains things?
Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.
Could you perhaps snap some pics when installing it? Just to give us on here an idea how it looks like etc?
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The diesel heaters require a fuel line and pump installed, an exhaust modification, and draw power from your leisure battery when running. Its a job for a professional fitter really, unless you have a lot of time on your hands.
The other disadvantage it that they have a fixed heat output, and don't switch on and off automatically with water flow (They have their own inbuilt pump), so it would have to be used in conjunction with a small calorifier tank, or something similar.
I'm not saying diesel heaters are bad,... just harder to install, and more complex to setup,.. as well as more costly. In the long run the running costs may be lower, but I can't be sure on that.
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nathan,regardless of my views on "HOT" i find your open attitude to sharing your knowledge with others on the forum refreshing its been very interesting to actually read some practical info ;D :) nice one
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Yeah Nathan, would like to commend you on that, its true, your a grat forum user!! Luke
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LOL,... isn't that what forums are for,..... opinions are useful,... but information is essential.
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I will be very interested to hear how it goes.
I plan to go hot within the next few months.
Keep us posted
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if you put the heater after the pump it defeats the object of stopping the water freezing
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Thats what i was thinking and would it affect the pressure after the pump.
I would want it before the pump and a bypass back to tank at the pump that way the tank will slowly get warmed up also
Paul
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Thats what i was thinking and would it affect the pressure after the pump.
I would want it before the pump and a bypass back to tank at the pump that way the tank will slowly get warmed up also
Paul
The heater has a high enough max flow rate (10 litres a minute) that it will not restrict the flow or affect the pressure when placed after the pump. This isn't theory,.. its tried and tested. Also, hot water through your pump will damage your pump,... most WFP pumps are rated to only 40 deg C,.. some to 60 deg C.
I will be fitting the heater with a bypass valve. On a cold night I will simply flick the valve and recycle the heated water back into the main tank until it reaches 25 odd deg Celcius. Its not hot,... but when its over a few hundred litres, it will take 24 hours at least to cool completely, so it'll act as one big radiator in the van overnight, and protect all my gear from frost.
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How do you make a DIY hot water system. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cue ??????????
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How do you make a DIY hot water system. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cue ??????????
I'll post some pics next week and show you!!
;D ;D ;D
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so it'll act as one big radiator in the van overnight, and protect all my gear from frost.
Now i see can't wait to see the pics when you do it
Paul
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The heater arrived today,.. too dark to take pics tho! I'm just waiting on the thermoststic valve and I can get it all installed!
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The heater arrived today,.. too dark to take pics tho! I'm just waiting on the thermoststic valve and I can get it all installed!
Sweet, let us know please. :)
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Yeah excited now! Luke
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Well,.. did a couple of houses with it today,... and I'm starting to change my mind about using hot only on commercial and first cleans. I was pleasantly surprised at the difference it makes, especially on regular work where I wasn't expecting it. I had the heat turned down quite low today, as I don't have the inline thermometer or the thermostatic mixing valve installed yet,.. It was warm to the touch,.. I'd guess at 25 deg C or so.
Hot makes a HUGE difference to bird muck and spider spots,... and the hose is so much easier to work with too.
The van is far from finished, I'll be putting in more shelving and getting the floor done soon,... so excuse the mess in the photo!
I'm also trying to source some kind of heatproof/weatherproof exhaust to go up through the van roof,.. at the moment I can only run the heater with the van doors open.
I've posted more pics on ACS too,... I'll copy them here later,.. but have to put the little 'un to bed now!
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looks good nat, how much do you think it is going to cost you all in when youve finished
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looks good nat, how much do you think it is going to cost you all in when youve finished
The heater cost €106 plus postage, I opted for the expensive but quick postage, but they do a service for only $42 if you're willing to wait a few weeks for delivery!
The gas bottle cost €28, the gas regulator and hose €23, The thermostatic mixing vale was £25 inc shipping off ebay, a few connectors & plumbing fittings prob an extra €40. Then I got a sheet of galvanised metal for the inside of the van as a fireproof backing to fix the heater onto,... a 1 mtr by 2mtr sheet cost me €16.20 from the local builders co-op.
All in all,... VERY cheap!!!
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I know I have a bit of a rep for being blunt, but in all seriousness mate, that just doesnt look safe to me.
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my god you ve done it now :D you,nat jones have..........REVEALED THE SECRET OF HOT :o :o :o :o...MAKING IT KNOWN TO THE UNWASHED WINDOW CLEANING MASSES OF THE WORLD :o :o......someones gonna pop a blood vessel,theyll be after you like that monk in the da vinci code ;D looks pretty straight forward tho...might have a convert to the HOT GOSPEL right here ;)
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I know I have a bit of a rep for being blunt, but in all seriousness mate, that just doesnt look safe to me.
personally i would find a gas fitter to do the connections and check it but its no more dangerous than a gas cooker or fridge on a caravan or a gas tar boiler
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I connected the gas myself, basically through impatience, but I've had a gas fitter check it over since and he passed it. It does need a lot of tidying up and some real effort to make it look more professional,.. but that is a job for the weekend,.. You guys get the sneak peek while its still a mess!
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personally i couldnt give 2 fishes tots what it looks like ;D if it works then nice one.By the way not wanting to be thick but are those really euro signs on the prices ??? or is it mis type cos thats real cheap if so and ok if £s
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Yep,.. I'm in Ireland, so €uro rules!!
www.xe.com is good for conversions to sterling.
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i may be there for next winter at that money ;D well done in being helpful informative and open
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I'll post more pics and info in the days to come,... as I get it tidied up a bit!
It really is a lot simpler than I was expecting, and a fraction of the price of the brand name hot systems. Give me a couple of weeks with it and I might get as bad as Mr Sol,.... ;D ;D ;D
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I think really, this is the way to DIY hot. No doubt. Yea you've got a gas canister. But....at the other hand, you'd need Diesel if you go the Diesel way. Probably costs the same, but Propane looks as simple as it can get.
Any idea how you are going to get the hot fumes out? Looks like there is no place you can put a pipe on is there?
Could you perhaps give us a diagram aswell? Like this hose goes to the unit, here goes the water, etc?
Many many thanks. :)
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I'll work on a diagram tonight,... but it is fairly simple though. The pic above doesn't show the thermostatic valve and the line returning to the tank which I hope to get installed today,... so when it's all done I'll post more pics and diagrams etc.
I do like the diesel heater option,... but it is way more complex to install. I've yet to find a diesel heater that will switch on and off automatically as the water flow starts and stops, so you have to use a calorifier pump and circulating pump,... more expensive and an extra drain on your leisure battery!
I'm still trying to figure out how to install a flue/exhaust in the roof of the van. The caravan ones don't quite look up to the job, and I'm finding it had to source one for the roof of the van that is weatherproof and heatproof. I may end up putting the vent out the side of the van,... which wouldn't look too pretty, so it'll only be done that way as a last resort.
A few hours on google/ebay will prob get me sorted!
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I'm still trying to figure out how to install a flue/exhaust in the roof of the van. The caravan ones don't quite look up to the job, and I'm finding it had to source one for the roof of the van that is weatherproof and heatproof. I may end up putting the vent out the side of the van,... which wouldn't look too pretty, so it'll only be done that way as a last resort.
the through the side vents work ok, they put them in campervans, ive put a link on your post on SCSF, its a roof mounted mushroom type vent, it takes a 80 mm pipe, which the self build motorhome folks run a lenght of metal pipe stuff around the roof line, this gives the fumes time to cool and then exit the roof vent, talking of motorhome self builds, they also add another mushroom vent, which is incase anything goes wrong and the fumes will escape from that, not telling you what to do, but thats how the selfbuilders do it
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120 quid delivered is a great price tbh
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Looking very good to me!! Well done!
Does It heat the water in the tank or does it just switch on and heat it as you use it?
Do you have your normal pump (shurflo/flo jet) Pumping the water into the heater unit?
If you do what happens when you thur the tap at the bottom of your pole and the pressure builds up to switch the pump off, will it damage the heater?
Cheers
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Looking very good to me!! Well done!
Does It heat the water in the tank or does it just switch on and heat it as you use it?
Do you have your normal pump (shurflo/flo jet) Pumping the water into the heater unit?
If you do what happens when you thur the tap at the bottom of your pole and the pressure builds up to switch the pump off, will it damage the heater?
Cheers
The heater is "on demand",.. it's a clever little thing and switches on when the water flows (minimum 0.4 litres a minute) and switches off when the water stops,.... BUT,.. I will be installing a valve that will allow me to return the hot water to the tank if need be on a frosty night. Heat the tank to 25 or 30 deg C and it'll act as a big radiator overnight and keep the frost away.
I have a normal 100psi shurflo pump, but its plumbed before the heater, so it never takes hot water.
The heater is rated to 145psi, so when i stop the water the pressure builds up safely inside the heater, and the heater switches off as the flow stops!!!
Thanks for the info Matt,.. I should have known you'd know how to sort it,.. I owe you one!!!
I didn't get chance to play with the hot system today,.. it was miserable weather, so I spent the day setting up a rainwater harvesting system!!!
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Thanks for the info Matt,.. I should have known you'd know how to sort it,.. I owe you one!!!
i only know this as i was looking at water heaters that the motorhomer's use, i was looking at a smaller unit, but your will do a great job, well done
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Here's the diagram,... a bit basic, but you get the idea
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That's what I'm talking about, nice one. That explains it. Paint skills. ;)
So what the thermo valve basically does, is.....get some cold water that doesn't go through the heater, and mixes it with the hot coming from the heater, so you've got the temp that you want. Just like on a normal kitchen tap (well sort of)
What does the valve look like? Does it have a turn valve on there? Or like a thermostat? :)
Where does your DI vessel go? (for polishing, normally after the pump and before the hosereel) What effect has hot water on DI resin?
How hot is your maximum for the system? As hot as you want? What is considered normal water temp for a hot wfp system?
Thanks for answering my questions, really helps a lot.
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I have a static RO/DI in the shed,.. so I kinda forgot to draw it in the diagram,.. I'd put the DI directly before the hose reel. I haven't tested the TDS of the water after it's heated to be honest, but I will shortly. I am a little worried that the heating process will SLIGHTLY increase the TDS but only by a reading of 001 or 002.
The thermostatic valve automatically compensates if the hot feed gets hotter or the cold feed gets colder, so you are guaranteed a constant temp. The use the valve for showers etc in old folks hoes to prevent scalding.
The max temp for the system?? I haven't tested it yet,.. but I honestly think I'll be able to make a cup of tea with it if I turn it up full power,... hence the need foe the thermostatic valve!!!
Here's a pic of the valve:
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are we not over complicating the process
here are my thoughts
insulate tank in van
water from tank in van through heater back into the tank ( you will get to know how long it needs to be on for the temp you want , we will say, 1 hour in morning, 30 mins at lunch time )
then just pump the water from the tank
am i missing something by making it overly simple ? ? ? ?
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are we not over complicating the process
here are my thoughts
insulate tank in van
water from tank in van through heater back into the tank ( you will get to know how long it needs to be on for the temp you want , we will say, 1 hour in morning, 30 mins at lunch time )
then just pump the water from the tank
am i missing something by making it overly simple ? ? ? ?
That would really defeat the purpose. You can do that with a heating element overnight or on a timer. And it will no matter how good you insulate lose it's temp slowly. Maybe not at 25c, but at higher temps it would.
Hot wfp is ment to be hot water on demand. Not to store hot water.
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are we not over complicating the process
here are my thoughts
insulate tank in van
water from tank in van through heater back into the tank ( you will get to know how long it needs to be on for the temp you want , we will say, 1 hour in morning, 30 mins at lunch time )
then just pump the water from the tank
am i missing something by making it overly simple ? ? ? ?
The problem is, for some glass (historic single glazed for example) Hot water can crack the glass. The risk is small,... but the ability to switch off the heater and use cold wfp is essential.
Also, running hot water through your pump will shorten its lifespan dramatically I'm told.
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fair enough the both of you
i know our boiler is running for the hot water for 2 hours in the morning and 1 and 1/2 hours in the evening, we have a hot water cylinder and have most prob 3 showers and 1 bath a day ( in the house , not each )
we allways have hot water in that cylinder, it stays warm as its insulated, this would also do away with water freezing in the pipe etc etc
just thinking out loud for easier solutions ;)
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You can fit a calorifier in the van, and use it as a heat source. It can be plumbed to take excess heat from the vehicle engine, and just be topped up from a gas or diesel heater when needed. Very eco friendly, but very complex to fit.
The gas heater I have doesn't have a pilot light, and doesn't burn gas when the water isn't flowing,... so in reality it is about as efficient as you can get without spending crazy money!
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Looking very good to me!! Well done!
Does It heat the water in the tank or does it just switch on and heat it as you use it?
Do you have your normal pump (shurflo/flo jet) Pumping the water into the heater unit?
If you do what happens when you thur the tap at the bottom of your pole and the pressure builds up to switch the pump off, will it damage the heater?
Cheers
The heater is "on demand",.. it's a clever little thing and switches on when the water flows (minimum 0.4 litres a minute) and switches off when the water stops,.... BUT,.. I will be installing a valve that will allow me to return the hot water to the tank if need be on a frosty night. Heat the tank to 25 or 30 deg C and it'll act as a big radiator overnight and keep the frost away.
I have a normal 100psi shurflo pump, but its plumbed before the heater, so it never takes hot water.
The heater is rated to 145psi, so when i stop the water the pressure builds up safely inside the heater, and the heater switches off as the flow stops!!!
Thanks for the info Matt,.. I should have known you'd know how to sort it,.. I owe you one!!!
I didn't get chance to play with the hot system today,.. it was miserable weather, so I spent the day setting up a rainwater harvesting system!!!
Thanks for your answers. I appreciate that.
The only thing that would concern me is the hot water passing through the ressin.
Some people say it will do no harm at all and it's better for the ressin and some people say the opposite. I dont know what to think myself.
How does the ionics hot water system work? Does that pass hot through the di?
Matthew
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I have the resin before the heater,... but i'm told hot water is good for resin....
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why not put 000 TDS into the tank, that way you dont have to be concearned about the resin situation
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Do you work a varistream along with your setup?
When using the system is it instant hot water or will the first few litres be cold untill it warms up?
I would like to hear how you get on with it.
I am in desperate need of a hot water system for a job that I have started but had to give up 1/4 of the way round as the backed on bird muck was just not shifting. I was thinking the hot would shift it!
Matthew
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I have a flowmaster installed on my system, and run at about 1.5 litres a minute.
The heater starts producing hot water within seconds of the flow starting, but it takes a couple of minutes for the hot water to get through 100 mtrs of hose first thing in the morning. I've found that so long as there isn't a huge gap between jobs, the reel stays hot for 20 - 30 minutes when it's all wound in.
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Thanks.
What fittings and hose do you use to set it all up?
I noticed from your pic of the mixer valve that it looks like you will need to connect copper pipe into the inlets?? Am I right in thinking that?
Have you got your return valve set up yet?
How do you find it's working?
Cheers
Matthew
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I got adapters for the cold inlet and mixed outlet to fit standard minibore, and on the hot side I used a braided hose used for connecting taps, but its rated for 500 psi and 100 deg C,.. so no worries about overheating and pipes bursting:
(http://www.avondhucleaning.com/yabb2.2/public_html/yabbfiles/Attachments/Image000_004.jpg)
I tried to get it all setup today, but I was short a couple of connectors, so it'll have to be finished off during the week.
I've raised the heater closer to the roof to allow room for the extra pipes/valves below. I ran the heater at full power for a while today (washed the van and car!), and even with the pump turned up to max flow, the water was steaming hot. I reckon the heater has the potential to run 2 poles if needed.
(http://www.avondhucleaning.com/yabb2.2/public_html/yabbfiles/Attachments/Image003_008.jpg)
I was worried about heat from the exhaust damaging the paintwork on the van roof,.. but evan after 20 mins running at max power, the flue pipe was hot, but the van roof above it wasn't more than warm. I've been told I can use plastic exhaust fittings in the van roof without worries of them melting, and I have no worries about it now. I just bought 2 of these:
http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300201552378&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=020
One will be connected to the flexible exhaust flue, the other will be left open so fresh air can get back into the van.
The heater has an oxygen sensor,.. so if I don't ventilate properly, the heat will just switch off!
Another thing to mention is that the heater has an automatic 20 minute cut off. If you use it constantly for more than 20 minutes, it will shut down, and you'll have to flick the switch on the bottom off, and then on again. Personally, it will never bother me. I'd never work 20 minutes straight without moving a hose, stopping the flow between windows etc. each momentary break,.. even if the water flow stops for only 10 seconds, resets the heater back to the start of the 20 minutes again.
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Here's the adapters btw. From the 22mm fittings on the valve I have a double collar spring type non return valve, then a 1" to 1/2" reducing flange, and then a 1/2" gas nipple to fit the minibore.
Always use brass,...DON'T be tempted to use any gunmetal fittings! They are cheaper, and often easier to find, but they rust very quickly!
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Thanks for your explanations and pics. I appreciate that very much.
All in all how much can everything be sourced for excluding a gas bottle?
I will email you tomorrow with some more questions if you dont mind?
Matthew
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Gosh thats a big exhaust pipe!!! I didn't realise It would be that big!
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Feel free to e-mail!
info@avondhucleaning.com
The heater cost €206 including the expensive express delivery(5-8 days),... but it could be as little as €135 with the slow delivery option (6-12 weeks!!).
The thermostatic valve cost £25 including shipping off ebay (Worth 4 x that!) Make sure you check the temp range of the valve you buy, some max out at 45 deg C,.. and if you allow for heat loss in the hose you could be stuck with a warm system, not a hot one!
The fittings, connectors etc prob cost another €65 or so,.. surprisingly expensive for all those little bits and pieces!!
The exhaust is 100mm (4 inches),... for some reason it looks bigger in that pic!!
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Forgot to say,.. mushroom vents for the van roof cost me €30 inc shipping off ebay!
The link is in a post above!
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I think you've done a superb job there mate for such little money. i would never have thought that could be done at that price & look so good/ neat & tidy too. I'm realy impressed with what you have done there. You should give yourself a big pat on the back for that one. ;)
Tony
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can you test the tds and let us know what the tds is of the hot water coming out of the brush. See if its changed after heating?
also this must be good as the water surely evaporates from the windows very fast once cleaned, so they come up very good and no customers waiting for the windows to dry?
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The van is in getting signwriting done today,.. but I will test the TDS coming out when I get it back tonight. I've had ZERO spotting in the few days I've been using hot though,... even on a first clean I did!
The windows dry faster,... not instantly or anything, but defo much faster. Hot water seems to sheet a lot more too,... windows that used to bead really bad are now much easier to rinse.
Macmac,... "neat and tidy"???? You need new glasses mate!!! ;D ;D ;D
It will be when its finished,... but I've a bit of work to do yet! I'll be putting in shelving all around it up to roof height and waterproofing the floor too!
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Email sent!
I did a quick search on ebay for the thermostatic mixing valve and the only ones I could see were 92 euros???
Also do you need a 12v supply to feed the heater?
Matthew
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The heater runs off 2 "D" size batteries, so no power hookup required!
Not sure if this would do the job,.. you'll have to email the seller and ask what the output temp range is,.. but it looks promising:
http://cgi.ebay.ie/22mm-THERMOSTATIC-anti-scald-MIXING-VALVE-NEW_W0QQitemZ220207340170QQihZ012QQcategoryZ32875QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
The Altenic Mixcal III valves are one of the best available though, I was just lucky to get one cheap.
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I just tested the TDS of the hot water and got a bit of a shock,... at 36 degree's Celsius its 23ppm!!!
BUT,... it's already dropped to 20ppm as its cooled to 33 degrees,.. so I'm hoping it'll return to 000 or near it by the time its cold again!
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will this cause you a problem with tds being 23ppm when working or will your working temp be less than 36 degrees ?
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For most jobs I'd be aiming for about 40 degrees Celsius,... but I know that heated water gives a falsely high TDS reading anyway, so I'm waiting till the water cools to see what the real TDS is. At the moment its @ 28.5 degrees, and the reading is down to 17ppm.
I have done a few jobs with the system before checking the TDS and I didn't have ANY spotting problems at all,.. and I did check very closely. Maybe I was just lucky,.. I still think I'll be moving my resin vessel after the heater just to be 100% sure from now on!
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I`ve spoken to 2 WFPolers with hot systems in my area and they never use the hot on a daily basis,1 only uses it on first cleans and the other says he only uses it on seafront cleans.They both said that the flowrate is drastically reduced and a nuisance when using hot water,the conclusion from both of them was that day to day working there`s no difference in results, there opinion not mine.
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I`ve spoken to 2 WFPolers with hot systems in my area and they never use the hot on a daily basis,1 only uses it on first cleans and the other says he only uses it on seafront cleans.They both said that the flowrate is drastically reduced and a nuisance when using hot water,the conclusion from both of them was that day to day working there`s no difference in results, there opinion not mine.
I'm not trying to convince anybody that they would be better off using a hot WFP system over a cold WFP system, it's up to the individual if they think paying the extra money for the hot system is worth it. They also have to take into account the running costs, i.e. diesel or gas or whatever.
I wouldn't waste my money using a hot system if I couldn't clean windows quicker which saves time and increases my earnings.
The advantages I have found:
Hot water dries on glass quicker, so when the weather is bad, the water left on the glass dries quicker than cold, so less chance of collecting dust, sand,etc and low TDS rainwater.
Hot water shifts stubborn marks and breezes through initial cleans much simpler with less effort.
Customers can see the de-ionised water drying quickly which results in fewer complaints from awkward moaning customers who are at home whilst the window cleaning is being carried out who dislike WFP method.
Hot water softens the hose, keeping it supple instead of hard which enables the hose to be reeled in much simpler with fewer kinks, especially in the winter.
Hot water on large hot panes of glass in the summer dry better than cold water on large, hot panes of glass.
Able to work early on very cold mornings problem and stress free when cold WFP users are moaning that their hose, etc are all frozen. Last November I was working in minus 5 early in the morning without any hassles. No need to take everything out of the van on very cold nights just to put it all back in the van first thing in the morning.
One other reason I use hot WFP rather than cold is because I suffer from chronic arthritus so I want to make life as easy as possible for myself.
Hot WFP gets slagged by many, that's up to them, it's their decision and I respect that. I've made my choice and I wouldn't go back to cold WFP regardless of what people have to say about it.
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I`ve spoken to 2 WFPolers with hot systems in my area and they never use the hot on a daily basis,1 only uses it on first cleans and the other says he only uses it on seafront cleans.They both said that the flowrate is drastically reduced and a nuisance when using hot water,the conclusion from both of them was that day to day working there`s no difference in results, there opinion not mine.
NWH,
Just out of interest, what size hose are they using and are they using their flow rate's turned up high?
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I`ve spoken to 2 WFPolers with hot systems in my area and they never use the hot on a daily basis,1 only uses it on first cleans and the other says he only uses it on seafront cleans.They both said that the flowrate is drastically reduced and a nuisance when using hot water,the conclusion from both of them was that day to day working there`s no difference in results, there opinion not mine.
I'm not trying to convince anybody that they would be better off using a hot WFP system over a cold WFP system, it's up to the individual if they think paying the extra money for the hot system is worth it. They also have to take into account the running costs, i.e. diesel or gas or whatever.
I wouldn't waste my money using a hot system if I couldn't clean windows quicker which saves time and increases my earnings.
The advantages I have found:
Hot water dries on glass quicker, so when the weather is bad, the water left on the glass dries quicker than cold, so less chance of collecting dust, sand,etc and low TDS rainwater.
Hot water shifts stubborn marks and breezes through initial cleans much simpler with less effort.
Customers can see the de-ionised water drying quickly which results in fewer complaints from awkward moaning customers who are at home whilst the window cleaning is being carried out who dislike WFP method.
Hot water softens the hose, keeping it supple instead of hard which enables the hose to be reeled in much simpler with fewer kinks, especially in the winter.
Hot water on large hot panes of glass in the summer dry better than cold water on large, hot panes of glass.
Able to work early on very cold mornings problem and stress free when cold WFP users are moaning that their hose, etc are all frozen. Last November I was working in minus 5 early in the morning without any hassles. No need to take everything out of the van on very cold nights just to put it all back in the van first thing in the morning.
One other reason I use hot WFP rather than cold is because I suffer from chronic arthritus so I want to make life as easy as possible for myself.
Hot WFP gets slagged by many, that's up to them, it's their decision and I respect that. I've made my choice and I wouldn't go back to cold WFP regardless of what people have to say about it.
I`m not disputing anything wayne has posted,the 2 guys i spoke to just gave there opinion.
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I use hot WFP and I use to use microbore but found I couldn't get enough flow rate so swapped it for minibore hose. The more you use the minibore with hot water, the more it swells up in size and so allows a better flow of water I've found.
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Hi Wayne,
1 said he was using 1/2 thermopure system and if i can`t remember if the other 1 said he was going to go minibore or he already had it,the other guy has a thermopure aswell.
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I`ve been told you can use minibore with no problems.
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When I use hot water the flow rate appears to slow down a bit although the water spreads along the glass more like a much thinner film of water and covers the glass quicker IMO.
If I'm using water cold I'll turn my flow rate down but if I'm working hot I'll turn it up to get more volume of water but clean the glass quicker as it doesn't take as long to cover the pane of glass with water when rinsing especially on large panes of glass.
It is definitely quicker to scrub the glass hot than cold if dirty, as it does a very thorough job of removing all the dirt, muck , birds mess than cold ever would with the same minimal effort.
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With my setup the flow rate is the same, hot or cold! I can't understand how heat would affect the flow rate unless the heater itself restricts the flow (Mine doesn't!).
The TDS of the hot sample has now dropped to 007 btw @ 21 deg C.
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I just tested the TDS of the hot water and got a bit of a shock,... at 36 degree's Celsius its 23ppm!!!
BUT,... it's already dropped to 20ppm as its cooled to 33 degrees,.. so I'm hoping it'll return to 000 or near it by the time its cold again!
When your water goes through your boiler and comes out reading a high TDS I wonder if the TDS is being affected by the metal it's passing through. I know mine goes through a heat exchanger and 20 litres of water sits in a stainless steel holding tank so it can't affect the TDS whereas some other metals can. Don't quote me on it but I reckon it has something to do with the fact that it's probably not inca alloy or stainless steel which is why your TDS rises after the boiler. I could be wrong as it's just a hunch.
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Forgot to mention......after the water goes through my heater the TDS reading is 000 and it doesn't go through a DI bottle afterwards as I have mine before the heater.
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TDS meters measure the electrical conductivity of the water,.. a variable which is affected by heat. The hotter the water, the more conductive it is.
I don't think my heater is affecting the TDS at all,.. the water still flows through the heat exchanger when the heater is switched off, and the TDS is 000. Now the sample is cooling, it looks like it will prob return to 000 by the time its cold again.
I will be repeating the test tomorrow night just to be sure,.. and I'll be trying the resin after the heater too, as someone told me the resin is more efficient when warm water is used.
I'll let you know how the testing goes!
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Tried phoning you on your number on your website but keep getting a error message?
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Tried phoning you on your number on your website but keep getting a error message?
did you put 00353 in front, and remove the "0" from the 086???
The joys of international dialing!!!
Call me tomorrow,.. the wife will be annoyed with me talking about work this time of night!!
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Never tried that?? :-[
Didnt know you were abroad?
Maybe I wont call you. It will cost a fortune!!!! lol
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Yeah,.. I'm in Ireland,.. the land of eternal rain!!
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Yeah,.. I'm in Ireland,.. the land of eternal rain!!
I'll vouch for that, when I was over there it rained nearly all the time, lol
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LOL!!
I just tested the water again,.. the hot sample is still 8 deg C warmer than the cold sample, and the TDS is down to 005 now. I'm convinced its just the heat, and not contaminated water now,.. but I will repeat the test tomorrow to be sure!
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Must have been scary to see that high of a tds. :)
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Must have been scary to see that high of a tds. :)
I got a bit of a shock,... was starting to panic!!!
It's the following morning now, and it's cooled down properly,.........the reading is 002!! Not bad,... but I prefer 000 so I'll be putting a DI vessel after the heater just to be 100% sure!
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That would be the only thing to concern me! The high tds.
Do you have tap water in your tank in the van? If so what tds is it?
Or do you have pure?
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I've noticed with tds readings that when the water is hot the tds appears higher. Run the hot tap for instance the tds will be high but wait for it to cool down and it will lower. I think it's a problem with the tds meters they can't give an accurate reading at high temperatures.
Remember pure water wants to return to it's impure state not the other way around. So if the water comes out with a high tds but looses the reading when it has cooled down then the reading must be fake.
Simon.
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So do you think the high readings are anything to worry about?
Matt
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So do you think the high readings are anything to worry about?
Matt
No, like said, it's a faulty reading from the meter. The water is 002, even when hot.
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So do you think the high readings are anything to worry about?
Matt
Nope,.. I'm not worried about it at all anymore. I re-tested this morning, and the hot sample TDS (Only 014 this morning!) is dropping rapidly again,.. so I'm convinced that the heat is giving a false reading.
I'm spending a little time this morning finishing off the installation. I found PTFE tape is useless on some of the fittings I bought, so I had to get some plumbers jointing paste and hemp fiber,... hopefully that will fix the leaks!
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OK,.. here's something interesting:
I just put a DI vessel after the heater and tested the water both cold and hot again,... BOTH readings were 000!!
I was told that resin is more effective when purifying hot water,... maybe this proves it???
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That doesn't make any sense. How can it be that without the DI polish after the heater, the TDS goes down, instead of up? Now it's at 000 both hot and cold. So that means the meter was correct? But how can the tds go down when the temp goes down then without the DI polish after the heater?
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i thought it would be ideal using 2 di vessels, one after your RO, then one after the heater, this way they ensure 000 reading, and is a bit more efficient with the resin. Nomatter what doesnt make sense, as long as youve got a 000 or very low tds out of your pole brush, things should be fine.
I like the way you have set this hot system up, looks easy and cheap and it works!
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keep going nat
your onto something big
could cause a major revolution
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I finished plumbing up the thermostatic valve and the line that returns to the tank today,.. but I'm still waiting for the roof vents to be delivered so I can only use the heater with the van doors open at the moment. >:(
This meant I had to do a few houses cold today,.... it wasn't too bad,... but I did miss the heat!
I have to get a smaller DI vessel for after the heater,.. I only have 19 liter ones, so it takes a while for the hot water to fill the vessel and reel,.. so the first 10 mins of the day are cold. For now, I'm just going to insulate the bigger vessel, so it'll stay warm between jobs/ over lunch etc.
Also, I plumbed the DI after the thermostatic valve,... and only after realised my mistake,.. I should have plumbed it between the heater and the valve, so that adjustments to the valve would affect temp straight away,.. not 10 minutes later when the cooler/hotter water filters through the DI!
I'll have to change it pipes round tomorrow!
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Trial and error!
But I'm glad your getting there.
Oh.... cheers very much for the email the other day and sorry I didnt reply to you.
Please keep me posted on your progress.
P.S. best topic on here for ages is this one!!!!!!!
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I switched everything round in a rush this morning, and now I've got leaks everywhere! I REALLY HATE PLUMBING!!!
The roof vents still didn't arrive yet, so I could only use hot on a couple of houses again today,.. 1 was PVC sash windows, and the heat really helped as the top sash stopped dripping much quicker than normal,.. prob saved me 15 minutes on a house that normally takes an hour.
It was cold today, and the hose was laid out on a tarmac driveway,... the heat lost over 100 mtrs hose on a cold day is quite a lot,.. when the hose was pulled out the full distance, the water was only lukewarm. When Gardiners "Thermobore" hose goes on sale I'll defo be ordering.
I'm beginning to think that so long as the new hose can handle the heat & pressure, I'd get rid of the thermostatic valve. The heater settings are very easy to use and control the output temp,... the valve is only a failsafe to save my minibore,.. it'll be obsolete when the new hose is available. The valve it a pain to plumb, and its still leaking a little too >:( >:( :o
I re-tested the water again this morning without any DI in the system (I put pure into the tank) and both readings were 000 again. I can only conclude that there was something in the system from the new parts or pipe sealant gunk that seems to have cleared with a little use.
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Hi Wayne,
1 said he was using 1/2 thermopure system and if i can`t remember if the other 1 said he was going to go minibore or he already had it,the other guy has a thermopure aswell.
Hello NWH,
I've tried the new, thicker walled minibore hose first time today. It allows more water flow than the older version BUT I lose a LOT more heat through this hose (into the ground when hose laid out flat), than the old stuff and it's also much heavier.
Your mate who has the 1/2 inch thermopure hose .......................... can you find out how many layers make up his thermal hose. I assume it's like 'tricoflex' but with a reflective foil layered somewhere between the layers. Can you ask him if he loses much heat through 100m of his hose, i.e. it may be very hot at the start of his reel where it's coiled up but luke warm 100 m further down the hose when it's been laid on the ground.
Basically, how efficient is the hose for keeping hot water hot because I need to make my mind up whether to buy some or not. I'm not really keen on 1/2 inch stuff but if it works good I'll buy some. I asked them at Ionics but the sales department couldn't help me out with advice. I prefer the opinion of someone (your friend), who has used this thermohose and tested it out.
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The one Gardiners are developing will be the same size (or very near) as standard minibore!
I can't wait!
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If you are finished with building it in, and having tested it all, could you update your diagram, and also take some pics of the roof vents and everything?
Many thanks.
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I'm still waiting for the roof vents to be delivered. >:( >:( >:(
It's kinda holding up progress at the moment, as there aren't many places I'm comfortable leaving the van open whilst I work.
I finally managed to fix the leaks today!!! I have to say, it's prob a very simple job for those who know how,.. but for me, plumbing is a nightmare!
I have a bypass valve fitted so that I can re-circulate hot water back to the main tank,.. tomorrow, if I get a chance, I'm going to try connecting the reel straight to that outlet (Bypassing the thermostatic valve) and see what happens. I'm fairly confident that it'll work fine,.. and I don't want to recommend that ppl buy an expensive mixing valve if its not really needed!
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So, you can actually set the temp on the heater itself? So the mixing valve was more like a safety feature, just to be certain it wouldn't be a higher temp? :)
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So, you can actually set the temp on the heater itself? So the mixing valve was more like a safety feature, just to be certain it wouldn't be a higher temp? :)
Yep,... just a safety feature really. I'd heard of a heater not switching off quick enough when the flow stopped, and the pipe overheated and burst. So far the heater is switching off perfect every time, so I'm not too worried about it anymore. I'm interested in the new hose Gardiners are developing for hot systems,... if it's rated for higher temps than the 60 deg that standard minibore is,.. the valve will be obsolete then anyway!!
The heater has 3 numptys,.. 1 controls the flame, cool to hot (I have it set close to minimum power),.... the second is a summer/winter switch where the winter setting seems to switch on a second burner and effectively double the heat output (I have it set to summer),.... and the 3rd numpty is to restrict the water flow (I have this one set to full flow all the time).
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Sounds like a really neat heater. So you've done away with the DI vessel then? After somebody mentioned it might have been gunk in the system, I thought, why didn't I think of that.
Glad it's all pure now. :)
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Yep,.. DI vessel is out of the system now, and it's all working well. If anyone did want to put a DI there, "just to be sure" it'd have to be a very small one, otherwise it takes ages for the heat to filter up through it. As it is, the water going through the reel takes 3 or 4 minutes before you get heat at the brush head!
I'm considering a 50 mtr hose for everyday use so the hot water comes faster, and just use the longer reel when its needed.
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Wow, that takes quite a long time. How's the temp when the water in the reel is finally heated up? Does it stay hot if you have to travel do different domestic jobs?
Yes. 50m hose would be ideal I reckon.
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The reel stays warm for a good long time once the hose is wound back in, so at the next job you'll still have warm water,.. even if it's not hot until you're 5 or 6 windows in.
On a cold day you do notice the drop in temp over a long run of hose,.. but warm still works better than cold wfp. I've installed an aquarium thermometer in my van, with the probe dropped down inside my WFP tank. It averages between 8 and 9 deg Celsius in there,... colder than I expected. Even if the water is only 20 deg C when it hits the glass,.. its still a big improvement in cleaning power,... though at that temp you prob won't notice it drying any faster.
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How would you go about installing the heater on a 2 man setup? Would it be possible to put the heater after both pumps or would you need to heat the water before the pumps?
It all looks really smart.
Simon.
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I'm told that there is a 2 man pump available and some kind of pressure balancing valve to make sure both poles get equal pressure (I've never used one, just been told about them!), so I'd just plumb it as normal and split the feed after the heater.
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It's getting hard to post details of the setup on so many forums at once,.. so I'm going to put all the info on ACS first, and copy it over here when I get a chance,... sorry if there's a bit of a delay though,.. V busy at the mo!
I finally got the roof vents yesterday, but I haven't got a hole saw big enough (110 mm!),.. so I'm off to my old fellas place tomorrow to raid his workshop and get them fitted. I'll post pics when it's done.
I'm still running the heater on minimum power most of the time, and I experimented with recycling the heat back to the main (400 litre) tank today. 20 minutes on minimum power (about 20% capacity according to the manual) raised the temp in the tank by 6 deg Celsius, so I'd estimate at full power for 20 minutes you'd get a 25 - 30 degree temp rise!!
Not bad for a little RV heater!!
;D ;D ;D ;D
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I got the roof vents fitted today,.. not as big a job as I expected, though I did cringe when taking the jigsaw to the roof!! I've used a SIKA brand industrial sealant which is like silicone sealant but much tougher, stickier, and more durable, and it easily fills the gaps where the ridges are in the van roof.
The vents are quite low profile and inconspicuous when installed,.. approx 35-40mm above roof level when closed, and 55-60mm open.
I'll post pics tomorrow,.. but it was too dark when I finished today to take any"
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Very nice. Looking forward to it. :)
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Ok,.. a few pics as promised!
The vents are installed in this pic, but from a distance you'd hardly notice them, in fact you can only see the one because its on the outline of the van:
(http://www.avondhucleaning.com/yabb2.2/public_html/yabbfiles/Attachments/Image000_001.jpg)
Here's a closeup of one of the vents (in its closed position):
(http://www.avondhucleaning.com/yabb2.2/public_html/yabbfiles/Attachments/Image003.jpg)
A pic of the flue connected on the inside:
(http://www.avondhucleaning.com/yabb2.2/public_html/yabbfiles/Attachments/Image001_001.jpg)
And a pic of the spare vent on the other side of the roof that leaves fresh air back in:
(http://www.avondhucleaning.com/yabb2.2/public_html/yabbfiles/Attachments/Image002_001.jpg)
I fitted these after lunch yesterday, and the storms and rain have been fairly severe since,... but not a drop of water leaked in!
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Awesome man. ;D
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I've been in Sharm (Egypt) but read this thread with interest on my return.
I'll be interested to see how your mixer works ( I don't think it will because you need all the flow you can get going through the heater).
I fitted the regulater (hoselock) that matt suggested today, the trouble was even when I opened it slightly there wasn't enough pressure to do upstairs. I do now have an easy way of diverting water into the tank and relieving the pressure though and possibly further insights will come my way.
I am thinking of putting a hole in my van roof- not for a flue- but to let some of the moisture that condenses on the underside of the roof out.
I also used my electric reel attachment for the first time today (I though about it while scuba diving and bought a couple of bits from screw fix when I got back). It's the business, and makes nearly as much difference to making a job easy as working hot does. There are a couple of tweaks to be done, but the principle is proven, and just as you will probably never work cold again I will never wind a reel in manually again.
One thing I did notice Nat, you didn't get the argy bargy that some of us have had. Maybe people are accepting the idea more (or maybe I just get up their nose?).
Anyway, well done, and welcome to the first rank
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Mr. S, dunno if you replied in the other thread on my question, but do you care to share what you've made? :)
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I've been in Sharm (Egypt) but read this thread with interest on my return.
I'll be interested to see how your mixer works ( I don't think it will because you need all the flow you can get going through the heater).
I fitted the regulater (hoselock) that matt suggested today, the trouble was even when I opened it slightly there wasn't enough pressure to do upstairs. I do now have an easy way of diverting water into the tank and relieving the pressure though and possibly further insights will come my way.
I am thinking of putting a hole in my van roof- not for a flue- but to let some of the moisture that condenses on the underside of the roof out.
I also used my electric reel attachment for the first time today (I though about it while scuba diving and bought a couple of bits from screw fix when I got back). It's the business, and makes nearly as much difference to making a job easy as working hot does. There are a couple of tweaks to be done, but the principle is proven, and just as you will probably never work cold again I will never wind a reel in manually again.
One thing I did notice Nat, you didn't get the argy bargy that some of us have had. Maybe people are accepting the idea more (or maybe I just get up their nose?).
Anyway, well done, and welcome to the first rank
What hot setup do you have.
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A really interesting topic here, I'm enjoying reading it's development.
Thanks for sharing it with us, Nathaniel.
Just one little thing, on your van you have written "up to 60' hight"
I'm sorry I notice these things. The spelling is "Height".
Strange but true :-[
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A really interesting topic here, I'm enjoying reading it's development.
Thanks for sharing it with us, Nathaniel.
Just one little thing, on your van you have written "up to 60' hight"
I'm sorry I notice these things. The spelling is "Height".
Strange but true :-[
Hes got high! on there not hight ;D
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ough!
glasses :o
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A really interesting topic here, I'm enjoying reading it's development.
Thanks for sharing it with us, Nathaniel.
Just one little thing, on your van you have written "up to 60' hight"
I'm sorry I notice these things. The spelling is "Height".
Strange but true :-[
You had me worried there,.. I only got the signwriting done last week,... I went out to check, just in case!!! ;D ;D
Anyway, well done, and welcome to the first rank
Thanks Mr Sol,.. but I'm not first rank yet,.... not till I get an SL2 anyway!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I'll be interested to see how your mixer works ( I don't think it will because you need all the flow you can get going through the heater).
You may be right Mr Sol,... I'm finding I have to have the flow up very high to keep the heater running no the thermostatic valve is installed. I'm torn between getting rid of the valve or fitting a small bypass line to increase the flow by diverting back to the tank.
I'm going to have to play with it over the next few days and see what works best.
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Mr Sol,... how does your reel invention work???
I could do with one! It sounds like a great time/energy saver,.... defo something I'd be interested in trying!
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He hasn't replied the last two times that I've asked that, so he probably wants to keep it for himself.
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A really interesting topic here, I'm enjoying reading it's development.
Thanks for sharing it with us, Nathaniel.
Just one little thing, on your van you have written "up to 60' hight"
I'm sorry I notice these things. The spelling is "Height".
Strange but true :-[
Hes got high! on there not hight ;D
I thought it said hight also till I looked again.
but system is coming on well Nat ;)
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GQC
I'm only on my second day of using the reel, and there are currently issues with snatching and guidance, but i'm working on it and it's definitely better than winding it in manually.
The other thing is, on the diy gutter vac thread I saw how upset Glynn was and I felt a bit sorry for him.I don't expect at £2,500 for a retro fit anyones particularly thrilled about how much Nat's system cost either. There are parts of my electric reel device that supercede others creations in a similar way(Not copy, different but better and for very small cost against the proprietory product).
Nat,
About temperature and flow regulation. (prefaced with in my opinion)
Firstly I found the Marizboa you have almost perfectly balanced without any further need for control. The flow was a bit higher than I would have liked (the burner wont light if the flows too low), but only a bit.
I do not beleive it is possible to regulate our simple LPG on demand systems in the same way that the diesel systems can be mixed and thermostaticly controlled. However it may be possible to divert some water back to the tank after the heater if the pressure at the brushhead can be maintained.
The Marizboa is my reserve heater, and the one i'm using does have too high a flow rate.Matt, you may recall gave me a link for an inline hoselock regulator. I've fitted this and it doesn't work (feeble pressure at the brush head). What I'm thinking now is that if I fit another in series this might help, and also if the pipe to the tank is uphill, so that is what I shall try next.
As you know I have two of everything. For the price and lead times involved I suggest you get another Marizboa for back up. Just a suggestion.
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Did you have problems with the heater breaking down then Mr Sol??? I got mine in 5 working days with the express delivery,.. cost a little more, but no way was I waiting 6-8 weeks!!
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When the gas pressure dropped (it was very cold or the bottle ran out). I found it a bit confused and not shutting off. I don't know if there is a safety device but it sometimes used to hiss. This never did any damage because i kept my eye on it.
When my hose pipe burst (twice) this was because it was ordinary garden hose and not up to it. I put car radiator hose on but have since found that tricoflex does the job (it balloons a bit over time).
My heater is attached by wing nuts and can be switched in ten minutes as I have them both pre attached to regulators.This backs onto nothing so i removed the need for a fire retardent. The one i have fitted at the minute has a pilot light.
My Marizboa works perfectly as far as I know and I can re attach it if required.
My suggestion of another heater was only that,a suggestion, it wasn't a dig saying give it a few weaks and it'll break or anything like that.
In the wider scheme, we have very, very, cheap systems, so to me a second heater is worth having for the marginal extra cost. Your gas will probably last you three to four weeks which works out at about an english pound a day.People running diesel pay six times this.
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I'm feeling the need for thermal hose today,... I had most of the 100 mtr reel out today,.. and the water was only lukewarm hitting the glass, even with it almost scalding hot at source. :(
Still,.. I find lukewarm water works a lot better than cold water,.. ;D ;D
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I decided to leave the vents open yesterday and see how I got on. I've been driving with them open,.. there's been storms and plenty of rain,..... and not a drop of water leaked in!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D
Even open, they're well below the height of any roof rack,.. here's a pic:
(http://www.avondhucleaning.com/yabb2.2/public_html/yabbfiles/Attachments/Image000_007.jpg)
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Looking very good. :)
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Matt, you may recall gave me a link for an inline hoselock regulator. I've fitted this and it doesn't work (feeble pressure at the brush head).
i think you must have got the wrong idea
its just a simple by-pass set-up and you just direct A LITTLE back to the tank by just opening the tap / valve a little, the more you open it, the more goes back into the tank which inturn means less to the brush head
edit, it seems this site will not allow pics to be shown that are hosted on i :( :( i dont see why ? ? ?
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I decided to leave the vents open yesterday and see how I got on. I've been driving with them open,.. there's been storms and plenty of rain,..... and not a drop of water leaked in!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D
they are desinged to stay open mate, thats why people in campers and caravans use them, this is why i said to try them
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OK,.. I'm officially converted. I was doing regular domestic cleans today,.. and after 10 mins I went back to the van and switched the heater on!
What can I say,... my hands were cold!!! ;D ;D ;D
Yes,.. hot wfp does make you soft!
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I know you are only supposed to open it a little. But when you open it a little you lose all of the internal pressure.That's why i've tried putting a second inline.(isn't it handy that I always get two of everything?). So I open the first hoselock regulator going back to the tank just a little, then after about eight inches I open the second hoselock regulator just a little. And this may work.
I think it does but I can't say for definite because I keep having leaks from one of the regulators.
Who was it who got this to work?because I don't believe them in the simplistic form.As more and more users convert to an on demand system this or some form of bypass is set to become very important to the point of being standard or integral to a system. The benefits are that you can use almost any heater with almost any flow, and instead of leaving the system hot and pressured at packing up time you can release it back into the tank.
Anyone reading this who hasn't a clue what we're going on about the problem is releasing some water back into the tank without a large drop in pressure. The reason this needs to be done is to maintain a high flow through the heater, and the reason this high flow is required is that for safety the main burners wont operate without it.
Anyone know how plumbers would approach this?
Or how conept 02 got round it?
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forgive me if I am wrong here hoselock regulator are they not meant for cold water hoses ??
maybe just maybe you guys may want to look at correct fixings and then your problems may stop happening.
Just a thought.
Ian
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I know you are only supposed to open it a little. But when you open it a little you lose all of the internal pressure.That's why i've tried putting a second inline.(isn't it handy that I always get two of everything?). So I open the first hoselock regulator going back to the tank just a little, then after about eight inches I open the second hoselock regulator just a little. And this may work.
I think it does but I can't say for definite because I keep having leaks from one of the regulators.
Who was it who got this to work?because I don't believe them in the simplistic form.As more and more users convert to an on demand system this or some form of bypass is set to become very important to the point of being standard or integral to a system. The benefits are that you can use almost any heater with almost any flow, and instead of leaving the system hot and pressured at packing up time you can release it back into the tank.
Anyone reading this who hasn't a clue what we're going on about the problem is releasing some water back into the tank without a large drop in pressure. The reason this needs to be done is to maintain a high flow through the heater, and the reason this high flow is required is that for safety the main burners wont operate without it.
Anyone know how plumbers would approach this?
Or how conept 02 got round it?
I've been puzzling this problem myself, and the only idea hitting me at the moment is a higher flow pump. This will allow you to loose more water to the bypass whilst showing less of an effect at the brush head. Not an Ideal solution though, as it'll decrease your battery life.
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Maybe the hoselock things werent right for hot.Ie window washers may have been right!!!
Anyway the problem is now resolved. For simplictitys sake I am going to call this Mr Solubility's progressive pressure relief bypass to tank gadget. It will be standard on on demand systems from now on. There are three main benefits.
1. any heater can now be used with any flow
2 water can be saved back to the tank if the flow is too high
3The pressure can be relieved at any time and water in the system returned to the tank
[attachment deleted by admin]
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How far do you open the valve before it affects the flow at the brush head? I've got a very similar valve going back to my main wfp tank, but I was only using it to heat the tank on frosty nights,... I was going to install a separate (Smaller) line as the bypass,... but if it works I can just use the existing valve opened a fraction?
Here's a pic,... my solution for the last few days was just to kink the cold inlet on the thermostatic valve!!
(http://www.avondhucleaning.com/yabb2.2/public_html/yabbfiles/Attachments/Image001_006.jpg)
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Yes it seems to work with the brush head pressure remaining okay or workable, the angle in the the photo is how I have it set, just a little, as Matt would have it.(in line being fully open, 90 degrees being fully shut)
From your daigram I thought your bypass was before the heater, that's why I didn't think it would work.
I had a lot of problems with the hoselock regulators leaking, and even the tricoflex was failing so i've gone back to car radiator hose.
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I'm using minibore for all hoses except for the line that returns back to the tank, and the short connector between the hot outlet on the heater and the thermostatic valve. So far it's holding up very well,.. looks like it'll do the job fine. I can't wait for the thermobore from Gardiners tho!
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Thermobore? that's good, where did the name come from.
Mini bore- microbore- thermobore, yes it works doesn't it. Is that someyhing Alex has thought of?
The all New Gardiners Thermobore does have a certain ring, if it is his he wants to stick some protection on it.
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I'm not sure if that's the name Alex will be giving the finished product,.. but I do like the sound of it!!!
I removed the thermostatic valve entirely today,... no need for a bypass anymore, the heater comes on using my usual flow rate now!
It was a good idea while it lasted,.. but I'd no longer recommend the thermostatic valve,... So,... HOT WFP just got even cheaper!!!
;D ;D ;D
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The system i`m getting has a thermostat on it,what happens now you`ve taken it off.How are you finding cleaning with hot water Nat.
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I can still adjust the temp using the heater controls,.. the thermostatic valve was more of a fail-safe/precaution than anything.
I'm finding hot wfp brilliant. I'm still not even half way through the first bottle of gas,.. so the running costs are incredibly low. I do find that hot water is making my hands crack a little,... time to get out the barrier cream again!
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so what flow rate do you use nat,
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I'd be about a litre and a half a minute,... maybe a little less. I'll get out the measuring jug in the morning and check! I have the dial of the flowmaster set to 5.5 or 6 with 2X 2mm pencil jets.
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i think i may have a go myself soon, is there any alternatives to your heater, to your knowledge
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There are a few on the market (search for "tankless" on ebay!). The majority of them are unvented,.. so there is no attachment to allow a flue connection on top,.. you just have to leave the van doors open.
There are Morco heaters designed for static caravans (I think this is what Mr Sol has) but they need a higher flow rate (Fixed with a bypass back to the main tank) and cost a bit more.
Looking at how simply made the body for my heater is, I'm sure fabricating a hood to go over the top of one of the unvented (smaller) heaters would be a simple job,.. but as always, make sure there is plenty of ventilation in the van.
I really liked this one (the minimum flow rate would keep even Jeff Brimble happy!):
http://cgi.ebay.ie/Portable-Tankless-Hot-Water-Heater-Liquid-Propane_W0QQitemZ290214786597QQihZ019QQcategoryZ42240QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
But I was kinda fixated on getting one with a vent connection, so went for the arazibo one instead.
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the venting should be a issue though
if you have a full bulkhead in your van and you fit 2 roof vents, that should keep a flow of air
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the venting should be a issue though
if you have a full bulkhead in your van and you fit 2 roof vents, that should keep a flow of air
If there isn't a flue direct to one of the vents, I'd recommend a 12V powered extractor fan to help expel the fumes.
All these heaters have an oxygen sensor, so if there's a build up of fumes the heater will turn off,... not something you want in the middle of a big first clean!
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I'd be about a litre and a half a minute,... maybe a little less. I'll get out the measuring jug in the morning and check! I have the dial of the flowmaster set to 5.5 or 6 with 2X 2mm pencil jets.
I just measured my flow rate (A bucket, stopwatch and measuring jug!) and got a bit of a shock,... almost 2 1/2 litres a minute!!!! Maybe I do still need that bypass setup after all!!
That's the flow I was using cold btw,... I just never realised it was so high!
;D ;D
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That flow rate is more realistic. a picture of the bypass required is in my earlier post. None of these heaters including the Marizboa actually require a flue.
Murco and Rinnai heaters have a CE mark. I have a Marizboa and a Rinnai, the Rinnai has a higher power output and flow, hence the need for a bypass. The Marizboa I found to be amost perfectly balanced unaided.
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I'm looking for a ratchet Matt, I'm having one made but if they are available anywhere I'd get one, if not I might offer screw fix first dibs and make a few bob. Do you know where to find one?
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I'd be about a litre and a half a minute,... maybe a little less. I'll get out the measuring jug in the morning and check! I have the dial of the flowmaster set to 5.5 or 6 with 2X 2mm pencil jets.
I just measured my flow rate (A bucket, stopwatch and measuring jug!) and got a bit of a shock,... almost 2 1/2 litres a minute!!!! Maybe I do still need that bypass setup after all!!
That's the flow I was using cold btw,... I just never realised it was so high!
;D ;D
Funny how the hot water (when it's sheeting easily and thinly), looks like you are using less water. I'm not surprised at your measured results, lol.
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Wayne how hot did you say your water gets.
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Wayne how hot did you say your water gets.
60 degrees at hosereel.
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hi guys.
wayne, i've just found this topic and wanted to say well done and thanks very much.
I know it's a bit sad but I just couldn't read it fast enough.
this is real exiting stuff and I think i'm gonna order a heater very soon... today maybe!
thanks again,
dave ;D ;D ;D
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Dave,.. I've now found a heater that would be better suited to WFP needs. It's a lower BTU rating,.. but the heater I have is on minimum heat most of the time anyway.
The main benefit is that it works at a much lower flow rate,.. the heater I have needs either a bypass valve or a flow rate of over 2 litres a minute to work reliably.
The other disadvantage of this new heater I've found is that its "Unvented",.. eg. there's nowhere to attach an exhaust flue. After seeing the Arazibo heater with the flue, I can see that it would be a very simple job to get a hood fabricated to fit over the top of the heater and connect to a flue.
http://cgi.ebay.ie/Portable-Tankless-Hot-Water-Heater-Liquid-Propane_W0QQitemZ290216716734QQihZ019QQcategoryZ42240QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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There are 2 things that have been bugging me since I've gone hot:
1. The high flow rate or awkward bypass setup required to run the heater
2. The heater has oxygen sensors, overheat sensors, flame out sensors etc. If one decides to kick in (Normally the oxygen sensor in the back of a van) then you physically have to go all the way back to the van to reset the heater.
I think I've got this sorted though!
I took apart the heater yesterday and saw that the flow switch is a mechanical lever that releases a micro switch when the flow pushes the lever enough. I can replace that switch with a simple 12V relay that is operated from the main WFP pump. When the pump is running and there is a current, the relay will close and activate the heater, regardless of the flow rate.
Also I'll have the heater main on/off switch wired into the relay,.. so every time the pump stops, the heater will reset. No need to walk all the way back to the van!
The heater safety features will still be in place,.. the over temp sensor being the most important IMO for general use.
Here's the relay I'm going to try:
http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120244458312&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=002
You'd prob get something similar from Maplins!
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Update:
The original relay works,.. but requires the flowmaster to be turned up higher than I'd like to provide enough voltage to activate it, so I've just ordered one of these:
cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260192728598&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=016
It's 6 volt,.. so it should switch the heater on with a very low flow rate.
Here's a wiring diagram courtesy of Jeff on the training academy:
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The new relay arrived today,.. and since its raining I managed to get it installed straight away! This is the item:
h.t.t.p://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260192728598&ssPageNam...
Its the 6 volt one, NOT the 12 volt.
Its installed and working PERFECTLY! ;D ;D ;D ;D
The heater starts as soon as the flowmaster clicks, on a very minimal flow! It switches off as soon as the pump does,.. and even though its only 6 volt it doesn't even get warm when the pump is running at full speed (I just tested it for 10 mins constant).
I reckon this is the solution,.. the final word in heater control for WFP!
;D ;D ;D ;D
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One final (I hope!) improvement to my setup is an auxiliary pressure switch. This switches off the heater much sooner after the flow stops (The pressure only has to build up to 30 psi in the hose/reel) and allows me to use an even lower flow rate without the overheat sensor kicking in.
Previously the heater ran when the pump did,.. so when I stopped the flow at the pole the pump would continue to run for quite a long time building up 100psi in the hose and reel,.. and during this time the boiler would overheat and cut out.
Here's a new wiring diagram:
(http://www.avondhucleaning.com/yabb2.2/public_html/yabbfiles/Attachments/HOT_wiring_001.jpg)
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Nathanael
This is one excellent topic & posts, you've done a superb job with your hot set up & I for one, am very gratefull for you sharing your knowlage & experience on this subject. I sit here astonished at what a superb solution this is for hot wfp & how (reletively) simple & cheap it is.
If i were a supplier of hot systems i'd be quaking in my boots!!!! ;)
Thanks again & please continue to keep us up to date.
Regards
Tony
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Just a thought will this affect you van insurance,
Darren
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hi NJ just caught the end of this so here i go my thermopure has a pipe from the heater straight
into the tank so it heats the tank water AND a t piece with a tap so i can vary the amount of flow
to my pole so to speak
so its heating the tank when on the move by adjusting the tap and when we stop we can have it
all to the hose but we always leave it open just a fraction so some water goes back to the tank
as not to build up a back pressure hope this helps EDD sorry to but in
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Thanks for the comments Macmac!
Darren,.. it depends on your insurer, my insurer wasn't bothered and didn't charge me any extra, but ALWAYS check first!
Edd,.. I remember the pic you posted of your setup previously, and it looks very nice! I've also got a bypass valve fitted, but so far I've only used it to heat the tank on frosty evenings. My heater has a 20 minute safety cutout, so starting and stopping the flow every now and then (between windows etc) is essential, and it doesn't work well with the bypass valve open more than a fraction.
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I'm quite impressed too Nathaniel, what macmac said is true. It's been quite a long thread and in places I have contradicted you, and you have proven me wrong.
However i think your solution to an easy problem is way too complicated. Anyone who wants to go hot should follow my lead and not try to modify manufacturers systems.
My system is simple. My system works.(i'm not trying to one up you, it's a bought in heater and a simple bypass, the cleveness in my system is all other peoples)
As regards the other topic(electric reel)- it's the same- keep it simple stupid, but in a way I am looking forward to what you are going to come up with.
If you remember instead of getting on with it you faffed and fannyed about with hot- and I told you to jump in-. The reels no different, not matter how you do it, it is a massive, yes massive, advance.
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I've found that if I pre heat my water tank I start getting problems with the pump so I only use my water hot straight from the heater. Come the winter I think I won't bother pre heating my water tank, I'll just use a mixer valve so I can regulate the heat after the heater if it's too cold outside.
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As mentioned my problems have been varistream related. The bypass back to tank wasn't put in to heat it, although it could do this.
Funnily enought I think it was you Wayne who told me to keep it simple stupid. And when I follow that advice my stuff works. I took the di off the van for instance and told Nathaniel about this but he still had to find out for himself.....
With on demand systems there is no need for hot water to go through the pump.
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A quick update:
An easier and more reliable way of controlling the heater switching on and off is an in-line flow switch. It took me ages to fins a supplier of these for a price that i'd consider reasonable (most I found cost more than the heater!). The GEMS switches are good,.. I have the 1 litre per minute one, which I find a little too sensitive, so I'd recommend the 2L per min switch,
www.radionics.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&Nr=AND(avl%3aie%2csearchDiscon_ie%3aN)&N=4294879990+4294955387&Ns=I18NPrc1_ie&Nso=0#resultArrow
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Could you explain more fully. You have bypassed the heaters internal control and now use this one instead?
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Could you explain more fully. You have bypassed the heaters internal control and now use this one instead?
Exactly,.. the inbuilt flow switch requires nearly 3 litres a min to switch on. I've modified my system to use this external switch instead, and also installed a relay that switches the unit off when the pump isn't running,... a additional fail safe feature to prevent the heater running without water flowing.