Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: AJ on February 19, 2008, 07:42:43 am
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Hi all,
Does anyone use Emporium 60ft carbon poles.
Are they strong enough to last, as they are so light (2.5kg they say)I am a bit doubtful.
If they are a bit too light, is there a decent alternative.
Cheers guys
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I use Emporium there is also Gardiners. The new strengthened 65fter is built to the same spec as the 88ft pole in the pic. Which is designed for 100ft.
Dont buy a 65fter unless you have the work for it. They start at 35ft and you just add as many sections you need at a later date.
With correct use they are strong enough for our needs. You will not believe how light they are.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/JeffBrimble/2008_0120Sheffield0006.jpg)
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Light yes,strong no.
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How High Coxy? ;D
I use SL2, same kinda thing. Took some throwing about but nbever broke on me.
Just sticks now and again.
Saw their roller brushes. Anyone use them? What are they like. Probably heavy are they?
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How High Coxy? ;D
I use SL2, same kinda thing. Took some throwing about but nbever broke on me.
Just sticks now and again.
Saw their roller brushes. Anyone use them? What are they like. Probably heavy are they?
I've recently bought a 40 ft emporium with the roller brush, I think the weight compared to the standard bentley brush is hardly noticeable. its taken me a week or so to get used to using a modular but I really like the roller brush idea and makes building the pole up a wall much easier and saves scratching up or damaging the brush on brickwork. i would recommend it.
Simon
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Jeff
Have you used the new gardeners SL2 pole?
if so what are the + and - of each pole.
What type of work are they capable of carrying out (short duration only or can be used all day every day)
which would you recommend and why?
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Nobody even the manuf have done a side by side test because of the cost ( but cheaper than the telescopic). I have held S2 .
Both poles are instruments to get you lightly past 30ft upwards. Do some more research- I can help if you want.
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Hey Jeff, just dropped you an email, Luke
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Nobody even the manuf have done a side by side test because of the cost ( but cheaper than the telescopic). I have held S2 .
Both poles are instruments to get you lightly past 30ft upwards. Do some more research- I can help if you want.
We have thought about doing a side by side comparison. The cost to our firm would be very minor compared to our overall operating costs and certainly a lot cheaper than when we compared Facelift and Ionic products, but to be honest would anyone really believe our results? Of course the Super-Lite would be stronger, more adaptable, better researched. We would have to acknowledge the Emporium pole's slight weight advantage but it would probably break during our testing. :D
See the problem if we printed the above? - it would have zero credibility.
The other point is that having sold a very large number of S2's over the last six months, we are very happy with it's long term reliability and integral strength. Comparing the two poles from our point of view would be of no real benefit because we have spent a lot of time and money on research and we know we have a very good product. If we were unhappy with certain aspects of our product then I would have already purchased an Emporium pole to see if there was anything structural we could improve on.
Of course, we constantly look at the Super-Lite package to see if there are minor changes that can be made to improve the user experience and we have made two changes since it's release (new Velcros and end protection).
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As you did with the F16 Alex which you bought and subsequently resold ! Maybe you could also buy an Emporium - not much difference in the price, and do side by side testing in your own comparison testing of your own stiffness chart of other makes like Ionics. I will accept your own results.
But yes its hard to put over experience, most have no idea of "lightness"
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Ok - we'll do that and put it on eBay afterwards, unless it breaks against the tree!
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Lets say 35ft, I aint got the money to do it ???
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OK how about the other way round, you send me yours and I will evaluate both, I aready have an emporium, then I send it back and we compare notes.
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The problem I have Jeff, is that the real difference between the two poles is not weight or rigidity - the real advantage of the Super-Lite is it's integral strength. The only way of back to back comparing them is to test them both to destruction. This then becomes a more expensive test than I have done previously with other poles. I did think of sending you an S2 but you would have the same problem and end up with a broken pole.
Having thought about this a bit more, I have already spent quite a large sum of money with my legal team in stopping certain parts of the Super-Lite's design being infringed, so I don't really want to spend even more money on something that ultimately will change nothing.
With 18 months retail experience with the original Super-Lite behind me, I realized that as a retailer and as an end user, it's more important sacrificing a few grammes for the sake of sections that are much stronger. This decision has borne much fruit as the S2 has proved to be a very tough pole whilst remaining awesomely light.
At the end of the day, both poles will offer a far lighter working experience than any other current telescopic or modular pole.
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Send them to me, i can destruct everything. ;D
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70% of us would probably only require a 20-30ft pole 20% a 60fter and 10% a higher pole.
That 70% can be accomodated by releatavely cheap but good existing poles. But its when they are used to extreme angles you realise that the modular c/f poles have many advantages over heavier Glass fibre even as low as 30ft by not causing muscular damage. (Potential accident claims of the future) So we agree lightness is the way to go.
If you make a pole to a standard it has limitations due to its design criteria. Add more glass and you get a stronger pole at a more reasonable price. Add more carbon and you get a stiffer pole but its more expensive.
While most will only ever want to get to first floor, I want to reach for the stars- hence my quest for a 100ft pole that is also strong enough for 30ft.
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I dont actually think there is a need for a comparison. Me and Jeff and NWH have all held both, NWH bought both poles I believe. NWH doesnt think that the Emporium is as strong as the SL2 ( I believe he had it break on him ). The SL2 is very strong and only a small amount heavier, so on that basis I would choose the SL2, but also because of the company selling it, who has a great reputation and customer care, Luke
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Oh but sorry Alex the Emporium does look really cool!! I want one just for that ;D
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Alex if we sort something out with the S2 for me with that end screw we spoke about i`ll send you my 40ft one.
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Hi NWH
I will be emailing you ..............
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Alex i`ve emailed you.
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While most will only ever want to get to first floor, I want to reach for the stars- hence my quest for a 100ft pole that is also strong enough for 30ft.
Jeff
Yesterday I was talking to a customer from a property managment company, who said that he had heard that someone is using a pole that reaches 37 metres which = 122 feet 8) have you any knowledge of such a pole?.
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Yes I have just had an email its a two man carbonized and they didnt want to do it again.
We are only limited by the new technology. Who knows where we will be in 12 months and why not as long as H&S keep their beurocracy out.
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200ft is very possible but would prob require 2 or 3 men to guide on the way up!
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Jeff, it wasnt the carbontec, it was the carbonized. Dont know if William is thinking of the same company, but these are based in the Midlands, Luke
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Corrected
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Have you used one of those carbonized Jeff, Ive held a few sections. But there seems to be alot of possiblilty for dirt to get trapped in the connectors, Luke
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I think it was at last years Cleaning Show or the one before, very similar to Ungers to look at, held it but not worked with it.If its the same pole I thought they may be going in the wrong direction due to the weight.
I think it works out at approx 16kg or 35lbs for the 120ft height that they dropped.
Or 8kg 17Lb for the 61ft
An E2 is 6kg 58ft
An Emporium 2.1kg 58ft
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William, I just looked in your profile, your in Birmingham, so it is very likley its the same company we are talking about, I know the owner, Luke
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The 15m carbonized weighs 6810 gramms. Thats 49.2ft and 6.8kg so another 49.2ft ontop will be nearly 14kg at nearly 100ft. Thats too much if you ask me, Luke
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70% of us would probably only require a 20-30ft pole 20% a 60fter and 10% a higher pole.
I want to reach for the stars- hence my quest for a 100ft pole that is also strong enough for 30ft.
The shy's the limit......... At what height does WFP become unsafe to use confidently for us WFP users & for the safety of the public if a pole should break or fall to the ground?
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I have now been able to do a back to back comparison of the Emporium pole and the Super-Lite.
Here are the stats:
EMPORIUM
35= 1.1 kg, 32' 5"
40= 1.4 kg, 37' 10"
46= 1.7 kg, 43' 3"
52= 2.0 kg, 48' 8"
58= 2.3 kg, 54' 1"
66= 2.6 kg, 59' 6"
SUPER-LITE
35= 1.3 kg, 34' 2"
40= 1.7 kg, 39' 9"
45= 2.0 kg, 45' 4"
51= 2.3 kg, 50' 11"
56= 2.6 kg, 56' 6"
All the above measurements have been taken using the same measuring equipment. There is a discrepancy between the Emporium's published weights and our findings but this will be down to different scales which is why we've weighed both poles on the same equipment.
As can be seen, the Emporium is slightly lighter than the Super-Lite but each pole length is shorter than the Super-Lite pole length, e.g, on the 56 ft package (SL-56, Emporium 58) the Super-Lite is 2' 5" longer. Even allowing for the difference in actual pole length, the Emporium pole does work out at about 0.5 of a gramme lighter per inch of length.
Rigidity - We weighted both poles at an extended length of 37 ft with a 500 g weight on the end. Held at an angle of 30 degrees off of horizontal, the Super-Lite was noticeably more rigid (about 15-20% more rigid). When our firm is officially installed in our new premises we will have the indoor space to photograph these type of tests and tabulate them properly.
Strength - The only real way to test these poles is to repeatedly drop weights on each section and record the weight at which each shatters. We haven't done this as we don't particularly want to destroy two poles but having tested them by hand, the Super-Lite has at least twice the resistance to side wall deformation than the Emporium.
That's all I can say at the moment except that now I have seen the Emporium pole I am reassured with the decisions we made in the development of the Super-Lite. Over the next month or so I will try and compare both poles side by side in actual use which is always a good test.
Please note - I have been comparing two competing poles, one of which I make a profit from selling and the other of which loses me potential profit when it's sold. Despite this, I have tried to be accurate and reliable in my measuring and assessment but I quite understand if anyone feels that I would not be objective. Anyone is more than welcome to visit our premises and carry out their own comparisons of the two products.
I do realize that to anyone who isn't interested in such things, this may sound incredibly anorak-like! However, for those who are interested, I wanted to provide the above details.
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Alex, I already thought that when I held both of them together!!! That extra weight is making the SL2 stronger and it isnt alot to sacrifice if you ask me, Luke
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the Super-Lite has at least twice the resistance to side wall deformation than the Emporium.
is that squashing the poles at a right angle to the length? If it is, I noticed when gripping both poles together that the sl2 didnt deform as much as the Emporium, Luke
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Iam sure if emporium poles done a similiar test with both poles theyre figures would be slightly different.Dont realy see the point of this post your not going to say that emporium poles are better than yours are you.ps i will stick with my facelift.
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Darren, I have held both and found the same results, the Emporium is lighter but the SL2 is stronger, Luke
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I wouldnt of expected anything else from you Luke.
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the Super-Lite has at least twice the resistance to side wall deformation than the Emporium.
is that squashing the poles at a right angle to the length?
Yes.
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Darren, I buy the best equipment for my business. The SL2 is the best moduar pole for me...end of. If Emporium bring out a pole I like more, I will buy it. If I wanted a 35ft modular for a second user that doesnt use it much, I might consider an Emporium. I by no means dislike the Emporium, infact I asked Jeff Brimble if I could keep his because it looks nice! Luke
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Iam sure if emporium poles done a similiar test with both poles theyre figures would be slightly different.Dont realy see the point of this post your not going to say that emporium poles are better than yours are you.ps i will stick with my facelift.
Darren
Unlike various suppliers including facelift, there are only a few including alex who are willing to put their products in the open, to be shot down in flames.
Alex has done a few simple tests, these are not a complete and through test between his and other suppliers poles, but he has given his own opinion on whats is different between each pole.
If he has edged the truth, to favour his products, then he will be exposed and ridiculed by members on this and other forums.
From what I know of alex, this is not going to happen, if he had found that the "Emporium Pole" was far superior than his then I doubt he would have posted these figures, instead he would have gone back to the drawing board to try and make his pole better.
There are too many companies coming onto this and other forums, saying their products are the best, how are the newbies to know which one is the best unless they prove it to us.
Darren you say that you are going to stay with your "facelift" which is ok for you, but unless you have put your facelift pole in comparisons tests against the "SL2" or "Emporium pole" and have found it to be better then how are we all to know which pole is.
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;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Acording to Alex pole chart the only poles that are worth buying are his.
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LOL i know it looks like that but it`s true,they know what the market demands because there working day in day out using the products.The pole charts are spot on. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The other companies on his chart, are aware of what it says, yet they don't seem to be bringing any evidence to show that its wrong.
Maybe by their deafening silence they are aware that the "Gardiner's chart" might be correct.
Also remember these same companies like to bully us with court action if we say anything that's is not truthful.
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Ionic,facelift and all the others have there place,the first 2 are also quality products.I`ve yet to see a better built pole than the facelift,and the ionic systems are in a league of there own if your looking to market your business.
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Acording to Alex pole chart the only poles that are worth buying are his.
Same as the test in the IONIC/PWC mag - the IONIC pole came out on top!
The other companies on his chart, are aware of what it says, yet they don't seem to be bringing any evidence to show that its wrong.
Maybe by their deafening silence they are aware that the "Gardiner's chart" might be correct.
Also remember these same companies like to bully us with court action if we say anything that's is not truthful.
deafening silence? Maybe other companies are not aware, interested or concerned about them. The bottom line is what does it actually mean to anyone? It's how you interpret the info for you own needs is important not what they apparently convey. Not every one wants the same qualities out of a pole.
as for companies threatening legal action against people say anything untrue? Good on em! They have every right to defend themselves against any lies - just the same as anyone of us has.
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Of course I publish charts that show the benefits of our products, what kind of a daft salesman would I be otherwise ;D. Anyone else is free to do the same tests on both these poles or of any of the other poles we have tested.
We design our products to excel in certain areas because we feel these areas are important to the end user. Naturally the tests that I do and the figures I then publish will highlight these benefits. Potential clients that don't rate lightness and rigidity as their main priorities naturally won't find the charts and statistics of as much interest. For those that do rate these things though, the charts have proved very useful.
As with the above figures I have just published, if absolute lightness is your main criteria and half a gram per inch is important to you, then you can see from the above statistics that the Emporium pole is the one to go for. If greater rigidity and strength at the expense of half a gram per inch heavier is more important to you, then it also shows which pole would be best.
However, I will say that without such figures being published and tests being carried out, how is the average mail order customer (which makes up a large percentage of clients in the UK) going to have a clue as to the comparative differences? I do realize that our firm is so small compared to other companies involved that they probably aren't aware we even exist! (Good job 1000's of our customers are though!)