Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: macmac on February 16, 2008, 10:58:51 am
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Would like to get peoples genuine oppinions on this. I have been conducting a little experiment over 6 months on 2 particular propertys which require some panes to be done trad ( as they leak with wfp ). One is done every 6 weeks & one every 4 weeks. the majority of windows are done wfp but have some panes directly next to each other which i trad. i have been taking close notice to see if the traded panes are any dirtier than the wfp'd ones & they are not. there is no difference what so ever in the level of cleanliness of each pane of glass. They are always the same, i.e. all dirty, all pretty clean or somewhere in between. Also, i wfp a different hotel every 4 weeks which is situated approx 15 meters away from the village main road, they have asked me to do a clean in between this (2 weekly) just on the front of the building as they get so dirty very quickly ( & they do ).
I know the theory behind why windows cleaned wfp should stay cleaner for longer but i have to say i think the actual effect is very, very minimal.
What i think is that for this to have any effect the conditions have to be right, but then that said, if the conditions are right then traded windows stay clean too. I trad an estate of bungalows every 4 weeks, sometimes when i return they are filthy & sometimes almost perfectly clean!
Are we guilty of being gullable, wishfull thinking, over-marketing where wfp is concerned. Have wfp'ers latched on to this & over-hyped it, exagerated it to their benefit?
I see it wrote on here all the time, comments about how cleaner for longer the windows stay when wfp'd but how much of this is actual fact & how much is over-hyped theory? I've explained how i come to this conclusion by testing the theory, has anyone done something similar which would give actual evidence either way?
I use a mixture of gg3 & squeegee off for trad, maybe this is why. maybe if i used fairy the results would be different?
Any comments welcome.
Tony
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Tony thats great research and very valuable as you cannot beat field testing as opposed to theories.
I do know that the type of glass will aslo affect the results. The glass we all love that sheets will get dirtier than the glass that beads.
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I do know that the type of glass will aslo affect the results. The glass we all love that sheets will get dirtier than the glass that beads.
Really? Any ideas why that is?
I would have thought it to be the other way round.
Matt
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Two of the said jobs are a full days work so all glass is dry & clean when i leave, it's not got chance to get contaminated when wet while i'm there. I've been checking them before i leave each time.
Tony
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i did a small research with some of my customers
asking them what they prefered
i used to do the tops wfp and bottoms trad but after the results of the reseach most customers prefered wfp all round so i now do bottoms with it aswell with exception of 1or2
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We do quite a few house because the missis is with me WFP upstairs and she does traditional downstairs.
And both tops and bottoms are equally dirty the next time round.
We have also looked at bungalows i would WFP half and the wife would do the other half traditional and again both equally dirty.
I used to tell customers when i first got WFP that they stay cleaner for longer as thats what was going round the forum at the time.
But in my experience thats a load of rubbish and they get equally dirty.
Paul
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I think the point is that if wfp guys have told customers they'll stay cleaner longer then they're shooting themselves in the foot, cos' customers will say: "OK then come every 3 months then and not your usual bi-monthly".
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wind usually causes most dirt on windows when we have spells without wind windows stay cleaner longer .This is my opinion and i have cleaned windows for approaching 20 years.
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I can't answer the question because i don't trad anything outside. :o But i have had customers say they stay cleaner longer. I also think wfp gives the impression of being much cleaner because the frames get done (well by me) so the overall effect is better. But the only guys who know will be the people like yourselves who do both methods.
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Out of all my customers & knocking on 4 years wfp only ONE has ever mentioned that her windows stayed cleaner for longer. although i don't suffer from this myself, people seem to struggle to get their custys approval of wfp. I'm wondering if this has led to such an over-inflation of fact. I also agree with the other post that it would not actually be good news for us if indeed it was true.
Tony
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hi tony nice result for tarn , I reckon that with wfp they do stay cleaner for longer , and out of all my custys i reckon if i was to go back trad now most would dump me . ive had loads of comments on how much & how long they are staying clean for . ive had 1 custy recomend me for loads of work since using wfp this is something she didnt do when i was trad , the reason being is that the results are better with wfp .
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Daveshaw thanks for advice on pricing ;D I didnt get the job but I wasnt far off the price from the other cleaner . sorry to hijack the post by the way :)
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hi tony nice result for tarn , I reckon that with wfp they do stay cleaner for longer , and out of all my custys i reckon if i was to go back trad now most would dump me . ive had loads of comments on how much & how long they are staying clean for . ive had 1 custy recomend me for loads of work since using wfp this is something she didnt do when i was trad , the reason being is that the results are better with wfp .
Up the reds, bring back danny wilson, all is forgiven ;D
Ta for the reply dave, it helps to give a better over-all picture. ;)
P.S. what main areas of the tarn do you cover dave? I was born & bread in gawber for 32 years. ;)
Tony
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Also, who's turned this into a POLL? 'cos i didn't ???
Tony
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I don't notice any difference either, but I do one estate bi-monthly, and the windows stay cleaner on this one estate than anywhere else. It is a mile from the sea though, so my furthest inland job. Dai
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I think it has more to do with the solution that you use. I use fairy, and the windows that get done trad are always much dirtier. As an example I did a hospital today the last time I did it was 5 months ago, some buildings are easier to trad most are wfp. The trad ones were minging but the wfp ones looked like they didn't need cleaning.
I think fairy will always attract the dirt, maybe gg3 or squeegee off makes the windows repel the dirt.
Simon.
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I bet it's all down to what solution you used. Did you use Fairy or not?
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I have had several comments about how they stay cleaner longer, but I'm yet to be convinced that this is actually true?
I do have a customer on a main busy road, that when I was Trad and returned on a monthly basis they were filthy, since going wfp they have stayed cleaner a little longer and I have noticed but only on this one house.
One thing I have noticed about wfp is that when they do get dirty they seem to be more dirtier than when I was trad, the reason I say this, is I have noticed on my own house, I used to Trad my own place about once a month to six weeks and even at the end of six weeks when trad there were not exceptionally dirty, but since I wfp them 4 weeks later there dirty, if I leave them for six weeks I get GBH of the earhole from the Boss, so she's taken it on her self now to clean our windows, so I suppose wfp has other benefits ;D :)
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Some houses do stay remarkably clean between visits. I have one house where the husband used to do the windows until the wife told him he was too old, and he used to use supermarket glass cleaner.
Even after a year of me cleaning them the windows are still waxy and horrible. The residues can stay on the glass for a long time.
Some of the reasons why windows are the way they are can be down to the way they have been cleaned in the past.
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hi tony i cover athersley as thats where i was living for 22 years and i do upton which is a big portion of my work and south heindley where i live now , used to nock about with a lad from gawber in my younger days john white ,you minght know him , dave
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In theory the idea that the trad method leaves a thin film for dirt to stick to seems sound and the pure water leaves no film for dirt to stick to also seems valid but in reality i have noticed very little difference
If the weather is such that dirt is getting to the windows then the window will get dirty if the weather is good then the windows stay clean
I have never used staying cleaner longer as a selling point although one customer did mention this once to me
Dean
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I think it has more to do with the solution that you use. I use fairy, and the windows that get done trad are always much dirtier. As an example I did a hospital today the last time I did it was 5 months ago, some buildings are easier to trad most are wfp. The trad ones were minging but the wfp ones looked like they didn't need cleaning.
I think fairy will always attract the dirt, maybe gg3 or squeegee off makes the windows repel the dirt.
Simon.
i started out using fairy then after trying a few others settled on squegee off (never could get the hang of mixing glass gleam,always seemed to drag the blade) which i still use for trad.I think the glass does stay clean for longer its another reason why i want to make round bigger,get another week or so between cleans,though some houses get dirty quicker because of location generally glass seems cleaner.I do think that using squegee off before making switch to wfp helped,i took some houses off a mate who used fairy and they took more cleans to get em coming up good
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hi tony i cover athersley as thats where i was living for 22 years and i do upton which is a big portion of my work and south heindley where i live now , used to nock about with a lad from gawber in my younger days john white ,you minght know him , dave
I would probably know him by sight, lived there 30 odd years. my mothers family are from athersley, wingfield road (i think) quite a big family, haigh is their sirname. All my uncles were miners & all were deputies at some point. ;)
Tony
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Well I can honestly say using the WFP inside really keeps the windows cleaned longer, I have never had a customer ask me to do them again.... ;D ;D ;D
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When I first switched to WFP, had a customer for whom I did two jobs. One was their house (at £18.00). The other was their guest house (at £40). When I first started to inform them that I was switching to WFP, he looked at his wife and said "You know. That method that keeps the windows cleaner for longer". My first thought was "Oh no. Wait for it." Sure enough, a few months later she decided that she only wanted the house done 12 weekly while explaining that she wanted the guesthouse still done 6 weekly as per normal because it was more important to them as it was their business. As the two properties are a few miles apart, I treated them as separate jobs. Also, I was not totally happy about some safety aspects on the guest house (needed a ladder to access flat roof and had to place ladder amongst parked cars with tight gap and no reasonable way of stopping the ladder blowing over in wind). Anyway, I took a chance on them cancelling the guesthouse by declining to continue at the house. They carried on having the guesthouse cleaned until last Autumn, I turned up to clean and she sent out an underling to turn me away as the windows didn't need cleaning (in direct contradiction to what she had already said). I haven't been back since. I made no contact. I know that isn't very professional but it was one of those jobs where my main thought was some relief that I would have to run the gauntlet of parked cars to access the roof. Nor would I have to tolerate the unnecessarily difficult receptionist any more. Their choices are fairly limited because, even though I did use trad on it at first, it does really need WFP. More WFP about now than when I first started so they should be able to find someone OK.
Anyway, THEY clearly think that the windows stay clean longer. If they wanted me to continue, the mistake they made was waiting for me to get there before sending me away. Maybe they wanted me to walk as much as I wanted to walk but I doubt they will get someone to do it for £40. And that was a place I had been going to since the late 1990s.
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"You know. That method that keeps the windows cleaner for longer".
They had obviousley already been primed though shiner, if they hadn't & you never said anything would the outcome have still been the same. They could have been mentally influenced by what they already had been told.
Tony
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"You know. That method that keeps the windows cleaner for longer".
They had obviousley already been primed though shiner, if they hadn't & you never said anything would the outcome have still been the same. They could have been mentally influenced by what they already had been told.
Tony
I think they said that they had seen something about it on TV. I'm wondering if that Newsnight programme (you know the one) mentioned anything about it. It would have been around that time.
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Its not whether it does or it doesn't. Its what the customer believes that counts.
I think cleaning with Squeegie Off as opposed to Fairy makes the windows last longer but thats just my opinion.
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I would probably know him by sight, lived there 30 odd years. my mothers family are from athersley, wingfield road (i think) quite a big family, haigh is their sirname. All my uncles were miners & all were deputies at some point. ;)
Tony
yes mate i no them if its same family , andrea , mel & steve who i no . same as me mate all family worked in mines . i did for a while up until the strike in 1984 . dave
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I would probably know him by sight, lived there 30 odd years. my mothers family are from athersley, wingfield road (i think) quite a big family, haigh is their sirname. All my uncles were miners & all were deputies at some point. ;)
Tony
yes mate i no them if its same family , andrea , mel & steve who i no . same as me mate all family worked in mines . i did for a while up until the strike in 1984 . dave
That's the ones dave, small world eh? Their dad reg' died last year (my mams brother). It's a big family mind.
Do you clean any of their windows?
Tony
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it is a small world mate , no i dont clean any of the windows for them . i went to school with them all mate . sorry to hear about reg , i didnt no him unless i was a cheeky little get to him when i was young , its a big place athersley and i do no most of them from there . i reckon i do around 95 houses round there as its i think hard to work for those you know . thats why i go to upton where i do around 300 houses and a few shops keeps the bills paid .
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I would like to point out that a few of my customers who know nothing at all about window cleaning without any promting from me have remarked that the windows seem to stay cleaner for longer now that Iuse purified water.
with regards rpj cleaning co.
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I agree I think wfps are over hyped and some windowcleaners have been gullable you can't knock the safety aspect of being on the ground but what if some one trips on the hoses! also the waters they claim is pure, ok but it goes through a filter with resin which keeps windows cleaner for longer so logic tells us the water is not pure that is used on the windows, I have been cleaning windows for 30 some years now I started at age 11 in school hols with my Dad and when I left school started my oun business, i'm happy with my methods of cleaning and so are my coustomers, I think some one is making a lot of money out of scareing windowcleaners into buying expensive unessasery equipment!
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Welcome to the forum Taze. Try to keep an open mind one day you may change your mind and want to use one, you wont be the first non believer to change. The pure water is used in surgical operations. So the glass can be is surgically clean. You can diy your own system for a lot less than £500 so it doesnt need to be expensive. Or you can chose to buy off the shelf.
I simply earn more £££ and safer than when on ladders.
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what Jeff said!!!
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Trad does leave a sticky film on the glass, I don't mean sticky to the touch, but sticky to dust and so on, and by that I mean ultra fine dust!
Specialist window cleaning solutions leave far, far less than washing up liquid, but that film is still there.
Go back a day or so later (or a month later come to that) wash it with WFP and you will see a very faint sudsing effect and if you don't spend a little extra time washing and rinsing the glass will dry spotty.
Now that is an absolute fact, I know this because every week I have some shops (that I am going off to do shortly) where if I get to park the van in one spot I can use my WFP to clean them, failing that I do them trad with a pole, so I experience the above all the time.
But does the glass stay cleaner longer?
Sometimes yes, but it depends on several factors, there are a couple of panes where because of their location they are always caught by a vortex induced by the position of an adjacent building, done trad there is always a light film on them the following week, done WFP that film is not usually there...but if the conditions are bad enough then that film IS there.
I think I just come down on the side that windows cleaned WFP have at least the POTENTIAL to stay cleaner for longer, but the weather conditions between cleans is the ultimate factor in how long they stay clean.
Ian
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Ian...that was one of the best constructed posts I've read in a long time. :)
Jeff Brimble's wasn't bad either. ;D
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I also agree with Ian. I've noticed all the same things.
When I started 5 months ago I was skeptical about the 'stays cleaner longer' issue so I never 'sold it' to my customers that way. I felt that would invite problems. So I went with the 'health & safety' issue as that's what forced me to try it and by far the majority saw the sense of it straight away.
I mentioned that I had been working off a ladder between 3-500 times per week and that I could reduce that to no more than a dozen times per week. The safety implications were obvious to all but one. He told me to my face that he 'didn't care about my safety.' >:( Needless to say he didn't remain a customer!
His new window cleaner came over to me the other week and expressed considderable interest in WFP and the benefits of it, so the old custy may well be looking for another window cleanerner before long.
I've also been cleaning windows for 30 yrs I wish now I'd tried WFP years ago.
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I am actually missing out on work because one local cleaner told a customer that his system is so good that her windows only need cleaning once a year! This customer happens to be my wifes' best friend so when the conversation starts "my husband does windowcleaning do you need a cleaner?" her friend blurts out how good the system is, and you would only need them cleaned once a year ::)
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When he doesn't turn up for a few months and the windows are filthy, I'd suggest doing some canvassing.
Some years ago I lost some custies to the miracle chemicals that were flooding the market that supposedly made windows too slippery for dirt to stick to. I soon got them back when the bird muck started sliding from the top of the windows to the bottom. Customers usually see through the nonsense some people spout in the end.
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I haven't conducted anything as detailed as Tony has, but here's my experience. Windows on one side/corner/whatever are dirtier than others due to the wind. If it's been a windy, dry month they are dirtier than if it's been a wet, windless month. I use gg3 when doing trad, rather than Fairy etc. In answer to the question, I's say fiction.