Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: lands on February 16, 2008, 10:40:11 am
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As if to completely back up Dave Liahona's philosophy towards pricing
Went to price a job at a decent sized (but logistically simple) 5 bed house yesterday. I quoted £297. Customer came back saying it was a bit steep as another had quoted £150 over phone and whilst he had no intetion of using other guy at that price could I meet him at £300 as obviously the VAT will take it up to £330. I'm not VAT reg'd.
I am coming to learn that the higher up you get in the domestice range the price issue reverses on itself. Thought I'd share that.
Pete
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Sorry guys but i could not do that, i must be to honest???
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Hows that dishonest???????????????/ :o
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Well for a start saying you VAT registered and you are not.
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I think I'm good at gauging customers ( I would though wouldn't I ;) ), I quoted a sofa over the phone at £130.00 after a lengthy chat only to be told I was too cheap, she had just been quoted £200 by someone else ( must have been Dave L :)), then quoted a 5 bedroom house, it was gorgeous but they had two young kids and hold parties regularly, 2 downstairs carpets were trashed. Quoted £280 and she was shocked, she thought it would be about a hundred quid :o.
Doing lounge, office, playroom and stairs for £140, wouldn''t take much more than an hour to do upstairs while I'm there :(. My prices INCLUDE VAT as well :( :(. Oh well, it will keep me occupied for a few hours.
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The chap has just presumed Pete is VAT registered by doing a quick calculation in his head, most people think it doesn't take long to clean the carpets. The chap has also presumed Pete does one of these a day minimum, therefore 300 quid = £1500 a week and so he must be VAT reg.
The price I quote domestic customers includes VAT, the price for commercial doesn't, I add it on the invoice. I think it's unfair to quote to a domestic client a price and then add 17.5% at the end of the job, private customers expect to pay what they are quoted.
My average price ticket is now about £120, when I was doing this a couple of years ago it was £80, sounds good but very very few have paid cash at this price, most pay cheque or use credit cards, at 80 quid most paid cash.
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Still thats not a bad price Gary eh??? cant complain say £30 per hour can you
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I would ;)
S
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Are you VAT registered Spencer?
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If its £297 it would have been aprox £350 with VAT
bit of a givaway that you are not VaT registered if you agreed with the bloke it would be £330 with VAT
You just gave him another £20
Plus you conspired to defruad the government ;D ;D ;D ;D
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That's an unfair assumption Ian.
Bad luck Pete, youre in the firing line for for an off the cuff comment that meant no harm.
I know what you meant.
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I agree with Gary J, Pete never said that the price would be plus vat he gave him a price and that was that, the customer on the other hand presumed it was plus vat and tried to forge a deal which in this case has put Pete £3 the better.
Keeping your mouth shut can work in your favour, an old mentor I used to read of used to say let the customer do the talking and he was right.
Shaun
PS should get it done in an hour ;D
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Well for a start saying you VAT registered and you are not.
Read the post properly. I did not tell him I was Vat reg'd, he just assumed it. This quote was done by email as were his comments. I would never do that, I'm no crook
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Don't forget you win some and you lose some! you have to be big enough to say to yourself that the lost customer has gone and move onto the next.
Shaun
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Just to add, I had already replied telling him I was not vat reg'd and that it would only be £297. My survey forms are quite clear and simple and like Gary says, he probably thinks I do that amount daily which would send me way over threshold (I wish I did).
Spic my last post was a bit short for which I apologise. You made an assumption from what I had written which was incorrect, have done it myself before so no big deal I was just trying to highlight that with certain customers cheap can be off putting.
Pete
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I understood you Pete, obviously the customer did'nt.
The fact you were £3 better off is neither here nor there.
I get your point that cheap can be off putting to certain customers
I did a job yesterday that "grew" when I got there from what she wanted over the phone, and I didnt quote anything over the phone.
I gave a price before starting, cringing inside, she didnt bat an eyelid.
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Pete I often get asked " does that include VAT", I always just say that is the total price including every thing.
So I would have said to that customer, Actually the price I quoted you of £297 is total price you will pay, when would you like it done :)
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No problem Pete, it just scares me sometimes how much some people charge i fear for our industry sometimes, it not as though its brain surgery is it and i know we have to buy all our equipment and i know we pay for training and i know we have to run our vans etc etc etc but its semi skilled work at the end of the day.
I am not pulling our industry down have been doing it for 17 year but some times i look how much some guys charge it makes my hair stand on end.
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Don't beat yourself up. You could be selling 3rd world loans at 1000% interest or mortgages to the US underclass. Take the commission and let the UK taxpayer pick up the tab.
ps I would reduce my prices if I thought I'd make more money overall.
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I agree Spic. There is a guy not far from me that charges 49p sq ft and he bonnets everything (inc. nearly all domestic). The price that i gave that customer was based on 22p. Tis a big house and I will be there all day. The lounge is 42sqm alone
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Have to dissagree Spic, I consider my work skilled.
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I wish there was some national price for carpet and upholstery cleaning, window cleaning etc (and I wish it was Dave L's price).
If you go to your local supermarket you know roughly that the price of milk will be the same throughout the country.
I have had one of my new technicians out today cleaning some carpets, 2 bed house, £180 +vat. The next door neighbour asks him for a price to do the lounge and hall of his house, he quotes him £100 + vat. Chap's as happy as larry and we've got it booked in for the 29th Feb.
If I'd quoted it would have been about £60 +vat.
However, had another last week, two bedrooms, quoted £68 +vat, the woman near dropped down dead in front of me,
"I can't afford that, the last cleaner only charged me £30!"
You can't win!!!
As long as we get repeat business and recommendations I'm happy, once that stops I know we are getting too expensive, we never lose anyone on the quality of the job.
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No bennie not skilled at all.
Also Lionheart pricing is the hardest thing to get right i always ask myself what would i pay and its always worked for me.
I went to price a three piece and one guy wanted £210 he did have a truck mount, laptop, free c/d to give away and all the woffle, sorry not for me.
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I guess the skilled bit depends on who you are talking to.
I consider myself to be semi-skilled but would consider many on here to hold and use more knowledge than an average plumber yet that is considered a skilled trade even a brickie is a skilled trade and there is more to CCing (when you include stain removal etc) than that.
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Skilled i mean having to be trained like a 5 year apprentice, carpet cleaning well anybody can do it just pop into any supermarket and hire one buy a vax.
And before you say yes but it will not be done correctly, BUT it will if you keep doing it then you become experianced.......... but not skilled.
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It's an unfortunate fact, that this is not skilled work and never will be until it becomes regulated by examination and monitored.................at that point, you will get more uniformity, but it might be a few years yet.
I can only compare the Skill Factor in other industries to determine the level of skill required to clean carpets and my working life has included a number of disciplines which required far more essential learning and training than c/c, which, like most people I simply learned from experience and guesswork, whereas in my previous lives I trained and studied and was constantly tested, in one job I even had to go to night school to add a couple of A level grades to my academic qualifications.
rob
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SKILLED expertness / expet knowledge a craft accomplishment / eg. a complex movment or action carried out with facility as a result of PRACTICE so yes SKILLED!!!! look it up in your dick sorry DICTIONARY ;D ;D ;D ;D at the end of the day it comes down to what you are happy working for be it 10p or £10 an hour / day / per sq foot or per meter and if the customer is happy with what you want. UNDER SELLING YOURSELF no not if your HAPPY
CHEERS TONY
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Damned if I can figure out what that was all about Tony.
Pete I reckon any Plumber or Brickie could be shown how to operate a carpet cleaning machine in a few minutes and do a reasonable or decent job right away.......................I have attempted plumbing and brickwork with very poor results.
The degree of accuracy required and the problem solving necessary to carry out Tradesmens work is much higher than most appreciate.
rob
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Carpet cleaning is a skill and it is not something you can learn overnight. Yes you may be able to operate the equipment in a very short time but that is not what gets you results. Knowing your fibres, the different cleaning agents, the different technical abilities and systems, the many problem stains, the upholstery cleaning, speciality rugs, curtains, the skills involved in running a day to day business, marketing, people skills, maintaining your equipment, leather cleaning and repairs, the list is endless, these are the things that make this a skilled business to be in. I could certainly be able to fix a tap washer or bend a pipe or lay a brick on top of another one in next to no time. This is why you should not undersell yourselves.
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I definitely think carpet cleaning is a skilled job, i have just done the hard floor and carpet cleaning course at prochem, i couldn't believe how much there is involved to do the job properly. I'm a tiler walls and floors etc, its the same in this trade anybody can buy a few tools and start tiling somebodies bathroom, conservatory without any training, but put a geometric Victorian floor in front of them and watch them mess it up, you only learn this by being skilled, and its the same cleaning carpets, so many different things to check...So anybody who says this is not a skilled job shouldnt be doing it.
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ROB you been drinking i thought i was late going on forum ;D ;D ;D
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Sherco
You're probably right, but the skill required to clean carpets is minimal, compared to tiling or any building, or other trades.................we're talking about practical skills here, not working out with accuracy, levels, measurements, maths, all of which are necessary in leaning trades.
The operation of removing soiling from fibres and textiles is minimal compared to anything involved in general trades.
Sure, if you want to use exactly the right product ( as claimed by manufacturers ) you need some additional guidance, but again, you could just read the label !
You will be blinded by science, or the apparently essential products for specific jobs, or you can find a couple of products which will stand you in good stead, 99% of the time .
If you want to show off to clients by displaying a van with racks full of stuff you'll never use and which cost a considerable sum, you can fill your van, but you will only impress yourself, weigh down the van and lighten your pocket.
As a tiler do you survey a job, assemble the essential products with a little extra and take what you need to that job, or do you fill your van with sand, mortar mix, bonding, expanding filler, grout, skrim cloth, brushes, etc, just in case.
An experienced tradesman / craftsman / engineer / whatever, can attain a result with a basic kit of items / products which they have learned to get the maximum return from, carpet cleaning is the same.
But, as you say, with my thinking, I should probably never been cleaning carpets and upholstery for the past twenty four years, but why do people keep phoning me and giving my number out to their friends and relatives..................
Cleaning carpets can be hard physically, but it hardly stimulates the brain cells.
rob
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Well said Rob.
Semi-skilled yes skilled no you can dress it up how you want it but not recognised as skilled.......no way.
As you do this job more you pick up experience like most thing eg when you start carpet cleaning you always vac the carpet later on you dont because with experience you know that it does not need it.We would all like to think its skilled but we dont have any paper work to back it up, and dont say you you have been on a course and got a certificate or certificates as you have bought those when you payed for course.
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THINK YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THE DEFINITION OF SKILLED 8) 8) 8) 8) But i thought this was all about under selling yourself???
CHEERS TONY
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Not been on for a while, Gary J, yes we have been VAT registered for about 15 years.
S
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Regarding the skilled comments, carpet & upholstery cleaning does require a level of skill and consistency and if you run your business simply to provide an income, one man and a van, (nothing wrong with that) the skill level required is less than if you are hoping to step back and manage your activities as a business.
The example being:
Dealing with PAYE
Collecting VAT
Employment issues
Pricing large areas 10,000 sq ft +
Legal issues, bad debtors etc
Finance management
Method statements
Risk Assessments
Website development and marketing.
All of the above consume large quantity of time and will often determine whether you make good profits. My point is, the activity of carpet and upholstery cleaning is not simply restricted to physical skills and abilities.
Regards
S
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I think the skill factor as mentioned is aimed purely at the physical side of cleaning, if you consider the business sense and abilities to run a business, that's a completely different ball game and one which I'm comfortable with, but is alien to most.
Incidentally Tony
I don't drink !
rob
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Yes Spencer you do need skills to run a business like you said buy thats is not what we are saying, we are saying that carpet cleaning is not a skilled job, semi skilled yes.
I know as i am in the same boat it would be very nice to dress it up as skilled....and yes i know you do assemble much knowledge as you do more work i have been doing it for years now but i dont dress it up as skilled, if you guys want to pat yourselfs on your backs thinking its skilled well dream on.
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What a very NEGATIVE ATTITUDE some people have i just don't understand.
PLEASE look in your dictionary at definition of SKILLED :-\ :-\ :-\
CHEERS TONY
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I am only a carpet cleaner please pay me what I'm worth which isn't very much.
;D
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BRILLIANT Mike ;D
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I rest my case............
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Skilled or not skilled its flipping hard work !
I think £100 an hour is sensible in this day and age 8)
Not saying i get it, but i will try ;)
steve
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If dressing up is the valuing our business, then yes..... it earns considerably more than not.
Case rested. ;D
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Most labour intensive jobs aren't rocket science, the bit of grey cell that you use is the etiquette that comes with the job, you don't just stride in and wet and suck do you?
There's the looking smart meet and greet, saying the right things, not knocking the ming vase over on your way in etc and that's before you start to clean.
Don't forget about the many hats you have to wear if you are a 1 man band.
On the other foot what education do you have to have to become a share trader? well officially none but I bet that the title does get more respect for a job based on a hunch!
My favourite saying is "life's what you make it", the worst solicitor in town requires a high education but where's he gonna get you? you may as well represent yourself as an unqualified carpet cleaner.
Shaun
PS who is the most generally educated on here anyway?
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I got a B in A level law :o
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Can I have a 'P' please Bob?
Shaun
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???
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Can I have a 'P' please Bob?
Shaun
My names Pete and no you can't
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Pete have sent you email.
CHEERS TONY
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Answer is yes Tony. Outbox is not working so will email you tomorrow with details
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BRILLIANT cheers Pete
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Brilliant Shaun
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Its all about demand and supply. People will pay more for goods and services which they need and are in short supply. That's why plumbers can charge as much, if not more, than solicitors.
If you do a good job and respect the customers property you can charge more than a poor carpet cleaner. Your location will also have a bearing on this. Wealthier areas, such as London areas expect to pay more.
I was a financial adviser (salesman basically) for 23 years and decided to get out of the rat race by setting up a cleaning company and getting involved in carpet cleaning.
I can quite honestly say that I find carpet cleaning far more rewarding than selling because you provide a service which people actually want. The only downside is finding a regular flow of customers, but compare that against the ever increasing pressures of targets and living in the land of 'No!'
The trouble is that some customers don't realise the skill involved in cleaning a carpet and the pitfalls. That's why I bore them with the process, so that they realise that if they go for a cheaper alternative they may run the risk of a poor job or worse.
The main difference between this occupation and my previous one is that the former was extremely heavily regulated and this one isn't, and so in terms of quality of service you get variety of providers. Therefore it is up to us to inform customers of the skills required and if enough of us do that for long enough, eventuallly we will be seen as a skilled service.
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Betterclean,
I have to say the following ; -
Since I first got involved in this business, about twenty four years ago, the same comments about low priced advertising, trying to educate customers, selling the sizzle, big is better, etc, have always been there and always will be, only the names change.
Your comment about plumbers is ironic, when you consider some of the postings on here, most plumbers would love to get the money some carpet cleaners are getting off with charging and there's certainly no shortage of carpet cleaners around.
rob
my final post on this thread
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Spickandspan says " it just scares me sometimes how much some people charge i fear for our industry sometimes, it not as though its brain surgery is it and i know we have to buy all our equipment and i know we pay for training and i know we have to run our vans etc etc etc but its semi skilled work at the end of the day. I am not pulling our industry down have been doing it for 17 year but some times i look how much some guys charge it makes my hair stand on end."
Carpet Doctor says "I think £100 an hour is sensible in this day and age. Not saying i get it, but i will try"
These attitudes and mindsets show exactly why our industry is often undervalued and underpaid by the public. But it explains why so many carpet cleaners struggle whilst others flourish commercially, financially and personally.
Let me explain.
I'm a professional carpet and upholstery cleaner. I run a 1.5 man band! I live in West Devon, one of the lowest earning parts of the country.
The average earnings for those actually working within the West Devon district was only £13,500 in 2006 (figure from West Devon Borough Council published statistics)
And I charge a minimum £250 per day for my services and regularly get up to £400+ in a day! And I don't run a truck mount. I aim for an average £300+ a day. And I
Why do I charge a minimum £250 per day and get it?
Well, for starters, I have calculated my costs for the year and divide it by 48 to get an average weekly cost. I divide by 48 as I take 4 weeks holiday a year, - (I need it!)
My costs include the following: Vehicle finance cost, vehicle depreciation, diesel, road tax, vehicle repair and service, tyre replacement, vehicle insurance, finance for quality equipment, equipment depreciation, equipment servicing, cost of quality chemicals, business insurance ( including employee & public liability & treatment risk), regular training, cost of travel to training, cost of B & B whilst at training, cost of travel to other trade events, seminars and exhibitions,, cost of NCCA membership, cost of IICRC certification, finance of laptop/printer, cost of software, cost of printer consumables, depreciation of laptop/printer, cost of business stationary, cost of telephone rental & calls, cost of mobile telephone & calls, yellow pages advert costs, local press advert costs, several parish magazine advert costs, leaflet printing and distribution costs, postage costs, rental of very small premises for storage and rug cleaning, .... and more.
Once I know my TRUE weekly costs I can easily calculate how much it costs to run my business each day before I clean my first carpet or chair.
Workers earning £13500 pa cannot afford to pay me my desired renumeration for cleaning their carpets, i.e. £250 minimum per day.
So I simply target all of my marketing efforts at higher net worth individuals (professional and wealthier retired people) and businesses. Those who can afford to pay me what I want! Location has very little to do with it.
These target customers will have spent many thousands of pounds purchasing their soft furnishings and most of them do not mind paying good money for regular professional cleaning.
In return I provide superb, superior cleaning on every job. And I get very satisfied repeat customers who are usually more than happy to give me glowing testimonials and recommend my services to their friends and neighbours. It's a win-win situation for both me and my customers. They see true VALUE in my services.
Customers often tell me that their previous cleaner only charged about £100 a day but provided barely adequate cleaning. This doesn't surprise me as I know that by having costed my services correctly, it would be impossible for me to provide first rate cleaning for £100 per day without going bust.
But believe me, I NEVER undersell myself and I clean on average 4.5 days per week, 48 weeks of the year! And there are many others doing a lot better than me!
So for those of you who find it difficult to achieve more than £100 - £150 per day on a regular basis , I'd say you are lacking in one or several of the following,
a) Basic business skills
b) Cleaning skills
c) People skills
d) Common sense.
Two of these can be learned.
So please stop knocking those businessmen cleaners who are showing honest profit by understanding their costs and supplying good value for good money.
But I suppose if one doesn't understand all this after 17 years in this business, one never will.
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Sean
You are talking rubbish..............you work for £250 a day. Strange to sell yourself on a daily rate. Anyway, if S and S is in the middle charge range, he will be earning more than you and C D will be miles ahead of you in terms of what they earn per hour.
Some people are perfectly happy with £45 - £70 an hour for what's essentially semi skilled work, after all, it's probably 5-7 times what they previously earned and they can work the hours that suit them.
Also, many others have done many courses, but don't feel the need to wear the badges and they may use the best products and chemicals.
The assumption that those who follow a regime of ............audits / laptop presentations, etc, are better is non sense, they are only satisfying their own egos and adding time to the job unnecessarily which is BAD business practice.
I honestly believe that the people who charge in the middle range and work hard will earn more than those who charge at the top end, sure they will work harder, or longer, but that's the way they like it, they can still take time off when they want and will build a larger client base, so will require less marketing expense and effort, as they will get more referrals each year.
The cost of running a c/c business is minimal, compared to any other business I've been involved in, there is no need for an office, or the usual paraphenalia that goes with it.
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Thought you had made your FINAL post on this thread Rob ha! ha! ha! I think this guy has some very valid points.
CHEERS TONY
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Quote from me earlier:
I have had one of my new technicians out today cleaning some carpets, 2 bed house, £180 +vat. The next door neighbour asks him for a price to do the lounge and hall of his house, he quotes him £100 + vat. Chap's as happy as larry and we've got it booked in for the 29th Feb.
If I'd quoted it would have been about £60 +vat.
He's just rung me this morning and cancelled, found someone who will do it for basically half the price (and it's a local franchaisee!!)
Therefore I can deduce that we are obviously not underselling ourselves, merely competing with the local competition!