Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Mike Halliday on February 12, 2008, 05:37:10 pm
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can this be removed
its a wax pull up ( I think) it scratches with finger nail but rub it with a cloth and the scratch disappears, it immediatly absorbs moisture ( turns black)
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That's wax pull up I cleaned 1 last week and have got 1 myself.
LTT sell a powder that you apply and leave on iy and it dras out the grease and the dye, but the dye can be put pack in or you can apply Grison balm layering iy on and buffing it in, colour required is London Tan for thr Grison.
Shaun
PS not sure if Ben sells anything but I believe that Judy's is vert good but takes a long time to work.
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Ltt do an airosol solvent for grease removal and Furniture Clinic do a solvent for grease removal.
Its always hard from pictures but the leather looks like an aniline or semi aniline.
Although you will be able to remove most of the grease the dark area will remain darker and a Grison balm or any other form of analine dye will not be able to return it to its original colour,the only way of getting the colour to match would be to pigment it.
It too much hassel and it will take time,unless the reward was very great I would walk.
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Looking forward to read the replies on this post , Nice photos Mike
John
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Hi
If its basically a write-off it would be interesting to take it away and have a play in the garage, to see if it can be inproved or not.
If succesfully obviously they would pay, if not they wouln't. But would be good experience.
If they dont think it a write-off run away.
Dave
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That would be a difficult repair to get it back to its original colour you will always have a dark patch,if the cushion is removable and cost not a problem send it to ltt or furniture clinic for them to try as it will take a few attempts at removing grease.
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this suite is 14mths old and was bought from DFS on 4yrs interest free credit so they still have to pay for nearly 3yrs :-\ :-\
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this suite is 14mths old and was bought from DFS on 4yrs interest free credit so they still have to pay for nearly 3yrs :-\ :-\
http://www.plumbscovers.co.uk/offers/index.htm
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what did they pay for it
John
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sorry John did'nt ask.
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DFS normally give 5 year warrenty, if it is just head grease and has not been attacked by the customer I would tell her to try with DFS.
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Hi
In those circumstances is "it fit for purpose".
Was it explained to them that this finish has no real protection from spills etc.
Dave
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could this have been prevented?
is this suite suitable for the purpose it was sold, and is it of merchantable quality?.
to sell a suite like this must be very questionable.
xxxxx-dave answered as I was typing-xxxxxx
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Customer of mine had suite like that only 9 months old same problem only not as bad dfs sent technician out who said nothing could be done with it.Been to trading standards etc now looking at going to court as he feels its not fit for purpose or at the very least feels it should have been explained this type of leather is prone to this.
If a protection cream had been applied this would not have happened as quickly as it did?
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I have seen this a few times but it is normally when the furniture is over 5 years old. Any naked or none protected leather will absorb moisture or oils readily. Oils are quite hard to remove and discolouration is the norm. Looking at the pictures it looks to me as if a clean has been attempted which has made the area even darker and will feel quite slimey/oily as well.
Mike walk from it.
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I've already told them its beyond help, but the wife was quite upset about it so I said I'd do a little bit of research to see if anything could be done.
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Re-upholster it only option
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Re-upholster it only option
Agree Steve, and cost would be around £600 too.
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how about dye it dark brown and apply a top coat, just turn it into a pigmented leather suite
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Mike
I said that in my first post.
Its not that easy though.
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The simple answer is yes it can be removed. We have seen this happen to aniline suites in a very short period of time.
Unfortunately the retailer will have given no information on looking after this type of leather but it could not be deemed unfit for purpose as they bought that type of leather (we have heard this problem over and over again in our work as consultants). Retailers may have to be more responsible when the new legislation comes in.
Using leather protector (preferably Ultra Protect) on this type of leather would have helped to inhibit this but there is still the neccessity to keep it clean regularly to remove grease from the surface.
Degreasing products will have to be used and with the amount of grease that is in the leather it would need to be done several times. Degreasing is not a quick process and should not be rushed for the best results. When you use degreasing compounds it will remove a certain amount of colour. It is impossible to tell how much colour loss there will be until the proces has been completed.
Restoring colour can be tricky. It is no use using a balm (as these are wax/oil based and result in contaminating the leather) you need to use aniline dyes (the original products used during tanning) and this can be difficult to get a lot of colour back into a defined area. Colour can be enhanced using aniline finishes which have colour in them.
It is a skilled process and needs a workshop due to the length of time needed to do the job.
We have recently done a bed head with this same problem but have done this process many times.
You could pigment it and change the suite very successfully with BRIT restoration system but this will completely change the suite from what it is and you would need to completely degrease it before you started otherwise the pigment would not adhere to the leather.
It is certainly not beyond help but may not be as new depending on how much colour is removed. Reupholstery will be tricky as you would have to find a leather to match and this would be tricky.
Loose covers are not an option on leather Steve.
If you need any help just give me a buzz Mike If you remember Mike we will have covered aniline restoration on the course you did with us (but not the degreasing part).
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Mike,
You can repair that to a very good standard using the products you have in your kit already.
I do not have the information to hand to post on here now, but if you call me tomorrow I can emplain on the phone. Then I'll post later.
Best thing of all, it can be done in about an hour or 2.
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Found this for sale on ebay, is it beyond repair.
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A leather cleaning & restoration system for Aniline Wax Pull-Up leather
Mike & Viewers,
“How about dye it dark brown and apply a top coat, just turn it into a pigmented leather suite”.
Will certainly create another set of problem – adhesion!
I suggest we stay on course and not make a pariah out of a leather type.
There is a great possibility to restore back to the original leather type.
We need patience aptitude and good attitude.
We have to be a slave to the leather in order to master it (I have been there).
Products use for cleaning restoration has to be leather safe (pH 3 – 5).
Alkaline cleaner and solvency is out of place, for sure.
For double sure please check the pH of all solution before use.
Otherwise we may compound the problem.
This is the cleaning and restoration system for aniline wax pull-up leathers.
(A) Spotting & Preconditioning:
Step 1 Grease spotting with a leather safe pH 4.6 spotter (spotter4.6™) in combination with a leather safe pH 4.0 heavy duty preconditioner (superCleaner4.0™). Let both products soak into the leather structure to plump it up for 15 to 30 minutes. Thereafter scud it with a blunt curve object (a large spoon) without scratching the leather and absorbed with a white clean rag.
(B) Cleaning:
Step 2 Spray a pH 3.8 leather safe cleaner (cleaner3.8™) and let the leather structure soak it up with fullness.
Repeat the scudding and extraction process (just ignore the color bleeding if any).
(C) Acidifier Rinse:
Step 3 Spray a pH 3.0 leather acidifier rinse (rinse3.0™) to plump up the stain area and repeat scudding and extraction.
(D) Replenishing Original Fatliquor:
Step 4 Spray an anionic pH 5.0 fatliquor over the cleaned area and let it absorbed evenly into the leather structure.
This is to replenish original fatliquor removed during the degreasing process and preventing the leather to go stiff when dry. This is anionic (-) fatliquor will bond with the cationic (+) leather fibrils thus help dislodge the (foreign stuffing oils) from the inter-fibrillary space too.
(E) The Force of the Wicking Process:
Step 5 Place a white absorbent towel over the stain area and mist spray with rinse3.0™ to achieve direct contact with the leather without any air bubbles in between. Then place additional layers and mist them wet too. Cover with a thick white towel to secure the paper towel and leave it naturally dry overnight. Suspended oily particulates will be transfer to the paper towel by the power of the wicking process.
(F) Inspection:
Step 6 Repeat the above steps to your satisfaction.
(G) Spot Dyeing:
Step 7 Matching aniline transparent dyes (anilineDye21™) for color touch up
(H) Replenish Pull-Up Wax Effect
Step 8 Replenish removed wax effect (waxEffect9.9™).
(I) Adhesion Promoter:
Step 9 Apply adhesion coat (adhesion73™).
(J) Protective Top Coat:
Step 10 Apply matching top coat from a choice or a mix of anilineTop55WS™ (waxy satin), anilineTop54HG™ (high gloss) or anilineTop54M™ (matte).
(K) Leather Scent Draggy Feel Non-Stick Conditioning:
Step 11 leatherScent’D™.
System is here for your scrutiny.
Products are available by mail.
Training is not a prerequisite when you follow a system with a little faith.
You can do better, I can help!
Roger Koh
www.f.com
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Here are the before and after photos of the bed head professionally restored
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg147/judy105b/DSC00347.jpg)
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg147/judy105b/BedRestoration2.jpg)
The process was
Removal of grease (several times)
Colour restoration using aniline dyes mixed to match
Finishing with Tinted Finish in a can to blend
Protect with Ultra Protect
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Grease Removal Unfinished Leather
1. Thoroughly clean the area with the leather ultra clean (foamed) on a sponge. If the grease is thick, wipe as much of it off as possible.
2. Allow to dry.
3. Wet the area with ultra clean so the leather is saturated.
4. Using the machine suck out all the liquid and grease from the leather. Keep using the machine until the leather is almost dry. Be careful when using the hose not to scratch the leather.
5. Allow to thoroughly dry and inspect. Normally this method gets all grease out first time. If it doesn’t, just repeat the process.
6. Apply leather re-colouring balm if necessary and finish off with a coating of protection cream.
That process only takes a couple of hours at most and will restore the leather, no matter how much grease has been soaked up to a very good condition.
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Andy experimented widely with a huge variety of machines when he was in the USA and did not find any that would extract dirt and grease from leather as the flow of air through leather is not sufficient to allow it to dislodge and extract soils.
Andy tested many many methods of cleaning and restoration in the USA as his job as a trouble shooter for Stainsafe/Multimaster was to find solutions to problems. This is where his vast experience comes from.
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Judy
Its ok doing a headboard like that (very impressive by the way) but the example Mike is showing would need the whole suite doing which would be expensive granted customer has another 3 years to pay
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It doesn't need the whole suite doing, you do the affected patch and then blend in.
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Andy experimented widely with a huge variety of machines when he was in the USA and did not find any that would extract dirt and grease from leather as the flow of air through leather is not sufficient to allow it to dislodge and extract soils.
Andy tested many many methods of cleaning and restoration in the USA as his job as a trouble shooter for Stainsafe/Multimaster was to find solutions to problems. This is where his vast experience comes from.
Just because Andy couldn't find a system that works doesn't mean it cannot work. I have a proven system that I have expalined above. Its simple and easy.
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Judy is it just the camera angle or is the finished picture a much darker colour than the first picture?
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Its just the camera angle. The leather was restored back to its original colour so was a richer colour when we finished but not as dark as it appears to be in the photo.
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Its just the camera angle. The leather was restored back to its original colour so was a richer colour when we finished but not as dark as it appears to be in the photo.
That's what I was getting at looks a lot darker than the original colour ???
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I was a crash test dummy for leather extraction and it does work although it wasn't as bad as that!
Just be careful and use little vac power and cfr tool.
Shaun
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If this was possible you could do extraction cleaning on leather which you can't. ::)
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I wouldn't hwe a full suite but we are looking at a solving a problem which in my case it worked when I used it.
Shaun
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If you think about it logically you cannot hwe leather it is impossible even if it is to solve a problem!! the airflow simply will not allow it.
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Don't you just love a good debate, ;)
I can see where Shaun's coming from and as Ben say's don't knock it till you have tried it! :-X
I too had a suite like the one Mike's showing, it was on the two arm chairs, years of head grease to the point it had started to rot the leather. After giving it a good old rub with various degreasing agents it went into holes. :o
Needless to say what started as a straight forward clean turned into a full blown repair. Customer was happy and I got paid more for the extra work ;D
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We have tried it Dave that is just the point.
"After giving it a good old rub with various degreasing agents" You should not be rubbing or scrubbing with degreasing agents they will do the work if left over a period of time that is how they extract the grease. What did you do reupholster if it had gone into holes, you were lucky they did not hold you liable for the damage!!
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Sorry Judy I was tping whilst you were adding your comment.
I think what Ben is trying to say is draw the air across the surface of the leather with the vac and not through the leather itself.
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Common sense will tell us it is impossible to draw air through leather. Using a hair dryer will do the same thing but take a lot longer.
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Thats fine but it will not extract the grease and nor will Ultra Clean so I cannot see the point nor the affect it will have.
The grease is in the leather and has to be extracted out with degreasers.
What is the point of vacuuming.
Using a hairdryer to heat the area will quicken the release of the grease and a heater can be used to quicken the whole process.
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Liable is not a word I'm famiular with Judy, 25 yrs in the business and never had to use that one yet nor the word re-upholstery.
Just plain old repair and recolour. It all about knowing your limitations when you take on cleaning and repairing leather.
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Couldn't agree more Dave, problem being that some people don't think there are any limitations!!!!!! ;D
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What an emotional subject leather can be :D
Some people do get excited.
I agree with Judy in terms of extraction and would not find it would do any good on any leather clean,it is totally different from cleaning flock ( Judy do calm down love ;))
The only way of releasing grease wheather it is flock or leather and that is by heavy ph detergent or for faster results solvents.
Some suppliers charge a great deal for solvent grease removers but there are other industries that use thse type of solvent & solvent sprays for other things and are far far cheaper.Just do a search on ebay for cans of solvent grease removers and you will see you can get 6 cans for about £10 that will solve this type of problem. But as stated above this type of job takes quite a while to complete and people often will not pay your fee.
As I said earlir Mike unless they are prepared to pay good money, then walk. Stick to pigmented leather in our game its easier and quicker to do and makes you more money :)
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I think you could clean the surface grease off wiyh a CFR tool ,but not drag any out of the leather. The only other thing I could think of is a method similar to wax removal from fabric etc - brown paper and iron on low setting .
Not advocating this just thinking out loud.
Mike
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I do not agree Paul, there is far more money to be made restoring aniline leathers. The methods are straight forward and the results are fantastic. As people have generally paid much more for aniline style leathers than pigmented leather they are more prepared to pay premium rates to have it fixed.
If you take the suite away to a workshop you can work on several at a time as a lot of time is spent waiting for the degreaser to do its job therfore costs can be reduced.
Basic aniline restoration work (that does not involve degreasing etc.) can be done with care in the customers house and again the results are great, this market is very lucrative and should not be passed up. There are a lot more risks with pigments than there are aniline leathers.
There always seems to be a confusion between what is cleaning and what is restoration. The sort of job that Mike has is not a cleaning job.
The whole point about using leather safe and tested products is that the suppliers (in most cases) will be able to give you technical help with the products if required, using any old product may cause problems that you will have no back up from
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Mike this is only done to turn the wax from a solid into liquid for ease of removal.Grease in this case is already in liquid form and although heat will excellorate removal an iron could do more damage than good.
But nice idea, its good to see people thinking outside the box :)
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Judy I totaly agree with what you say.
The point you are missing is this one.
You are on a carpet cleaning forum
We are not specialist cleaners, but general upholstery cleaners.
98% of jobs we come across are pigmented leather.
Out of that around 75% is cheap pigmented leather or customers that will not pay big money.
Your leather training and expertise is more for the specialist industry of leather cleaners and repairs and not for the day to day stuff that we come up against which needs doing as quick as we can for the best result and price.
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Mike this method could work quite well and an iron would certainly not do any harm (we have used this many times on chocolate) but it would be fairly labour intensive and leaving a degreaser to do the job would be quicker and more effective.
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There always seems to be a confusion between what is cleaning and what is restoration. The sort of job that Mike has is not a cleaning job.
Judy that is why I keep telling Mike to walk from it. In our line of work this type of job is not cost effective.
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Paul I am perfectly aware of what the forum is for but as most carpet cleaners are also upholstery cleaners and between 60 - 70% of upholstered furniture is leather then it is the right pace for us to be.
I am not getting excited Paul, Iam putting a point across quite calmly and rationally but you seem to object to the fact that I contradict you.
We certainly do not train for a specialist industry we train for every day cleaning the quickest and safest way possible. We have reduced the time that leather cleaning takes over the past year from 3-4 hours to about 1.5 hours due to the correct use of products and systems, thus prices can be reduced for those that are unwilling to pay.
We do not knock people finding quicker ways to clean leather as long as they are using leather safe products and are aware of the problems that may be encountered (even more so if they do not use leather safe products) I can expand on this if you want????
The leather market is constantly changing and products and techniques need to move on and be developed accordingly. The days of single colour pigmented leather are over and there is a great need for correct leather identifiaction and awareness of problems that can be encountered (this is especially so with all the misinformation that is now flying about)
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Paul
It is no good upsetting the customer then by telling her it is a right off when the problem can be fixed. When people have done training they should know their own limits but be prepared to give the customer a soluiton to the problem not just upset them, surely this is not good customer service
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Judy were did I upset the customer ?
Where is the poor customer service?
And re your prievoius post its you that actually contradicts every body else :D :D
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Judy
you say
We certainly do not train for a specialist industry we train for every day cleaning the quickest and safest way possible. We have reduced the time that leather cleaning takes over the past year from 3-4 hours to about 1.5 hours due to the correct use of products and systems, thus prices can be reduced for those that are unwilling to pay.
Speaking to guys that have done your leather cleaning course 3 years ago or 2 years ago or last year to present day, there has been do difference in your cleaning format/practices. So how have you managed to reduce the cleaning times down by half/third?
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As per usual it's turned into a them and us thing, I should have took pictures to show what I did that would have proved it but these real world results are more practical then theory.
Shaun
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Is it like this...
I clean carpets, I also clean rugs, but I dont clean carpets and rugs that are too technical for me ie the Dave Lihona/ Paul King type cleaning - the oriental type stuff.
Why - cause I am happy just cleaning "normal" carpets and rugs even though their may be big money in the special stuff.
I clean leather suites, and like cleaning leather, but I dont want to go down the road of doing the restoration type stuff even though there may be big money.
So I can see pauls viewpoint to Mike - walk away - and I can see Judys viewpoint - satisfy the customer.
Thing is if I walk away then the customer probably wont get the result, but I dont really feel i can do it.
Pity there isnt a formal database of who has what skills and then wee could pass the job on to someone near.
Ye sI know Paul has the skill but he is 45 mile from me - problem is I dont know if anyone nearer.
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Thats fine but it will not extract the grease and nor will Ultra Clean so I cannot see the point nor the affect it will have.
Why say that when you haven't tried it yourself?
I told you that I did it and it worked. Shaun told you that he did it and it worked as well. So why after reading both of these would you say it couldn't work?
You are very ignorant in this situation. Just becuase Andy couldn't make it work, doesn't mean it cannot.
The ultra clean disolves the grease and the machine draws it to the surface and/or out of the leather completely. This method works perfectly on unfinished leathers, it also works on finished leathers but it is harder work, for finished leathers we have developed a similar method.
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Joe the point I am making is more like this.
Mike would be able to do this but would take him lots of visits and time or he could take the suite away if he had a work shop but again more time involved. In terms of the value of the suite and what the customer is prepared to pay then the job does not stack up unless Mike wants to earn £5 per hour.
By telling the customer the job is not viable is not bad customer service..
By telling the customer that the job can be done, but will cost aound £350 to do or £600 to reupholster is not bad customer service.
This is more of giving expectations and options to the customer.
My point to Mike of "walk" from it, is based on the fact that he could earn £1000 doing other work in the time it would take him to complete this job, so in my view and my view only ,I would walk from it unless the price was right, but I bet this customer would not pay that sort of money.
Hard line, yes but I am in business to make money.
And as Shaun says "in the real world".
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Bedtime everybody.
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Taxi
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Joe we have a comprehensive database of very well qualified network of technicians all over the country so if you find jobs you can't do then just let us know. We pass them on to our network.
Paul we have reduced the time by the products we now use and the way we now do the pre clean survey. As I say things move on and are constantly redeveloped to keep up with the changing leather market.
Ben we have tested this method and we have tested Ultra Clean and it does not dissolve grease. There is no way that a cleaner can draw the grease to the surface enough for it to be used by extraction, it has already been agreed that things cannot be extracted from leather so why push the point. Please do not call me ignorant I find it very offensive.
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Kisses before lights out :-* :-* :-*
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I hope Jason and Pete have security sorted for the CCDO it's going to be a war zone with them 3 in the same room
John
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Paul rang Andy and they both agreed that he could attend but now it seems he has changed his mind and has banned him from going. We are still waiting for the phone call to explain why this has happened.
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I think this topic explains why ;)
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Judy, if you mean me, would you qualify that please.
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Paul rang Andy and they both agreed that he could attend but now it seems he has changed his mind and has banned him from going. We are still waiting for the phone call to explain why this has happened.
That's a real shame with Andys Knowledge and experience he could give some quality imput to the day
John
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*sat here laughing at this topic*
lets hope the ccdo will be a peaceful day out for all concerned even if we dont agree on forums I hope people dont take it personally
(i'm hiring Straker as personal protection ;D)
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Paul rang Andy and they both agreed that he could attend but now it seems he has changed his mind and has banned him from going. We are still waiting for the phone call to explain why this has happened.
I think I should comment at this point.
I have tried to ring Andy but he was away and Andy has tried to ring me but I have done a 10 hour round trip today to view and organise the venue for the CCDO. I will however speak to Andy and go over what I am about to comment on now.
The CCDO is about the delegates and the delegates alone. If we can keep this perspective clear in our minds (irrespective of personal or professional opinions) I believe Jason and I's decision is vindicated.
This is the first year of this format and as organisers it is imperative the day goes without a hitch (or so much as dilligent planning will allow) so that we can establish an event that will provide serious benefit to the industry and even attract some longevity.
Lets put this into perspective. Do you think the NCCA will endorse Dave Liahona's rug cleaning methods? No. (I won't comment on reasons why). What about Doug Holloway and the NCCA? I could go on but I think to the intelligent and forward thinking of us (and I include all on this forum because this is what makes it so valuable) would like to share ideas on an infomal level and this event provides the platform on which this can happen.
The level (and style) of debate on this post alone suggests that it would be problematic to have a practical session on Leather Cleaning and Repair including so many different opinions. This is why Jason and I have taken this decsion for this year alone. I believe that for next year it would be better to have a diffent perspective and that LTT should (being the respected organisation that they are) have their opportunity as they did at last years CCDO.
Again, lets try and remember what this is all about and I'm sure common sense will prevail.
Pete
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Ben we have tested this method and we have tested Ultra Clean and it does not dissolve grease. There is no way that a cleaner can draw the grease to the surface enough for it to be used by extraction, it has already been agreed that things cannot be extracted from leather so why push the point. Please do not call me ignorant I find it very offensive.
Don't make assumptions, saying things like the above makes you ignorant. Until you put the ultra clean into the leather and try to suck it out using a machine as I have said, you CANNOT possibly comment let along say it will not work.
Judy, you have no room for other peoples opinions or ideas, you dismiss everything as either not suitable for leather or its the wrong way to do it. This is the reason why all arguments start on here with the leather topic. YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT
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Grrrrrrrr!
Just like kids - they argue and bicker, you pull them apart and tell em to stop it - turn your back and there at it again.
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Ben as I keep saying, we have tried this method and it does not work. We have plenty of room for other peoples opinions and often take methods of respected leather cleaners and restorers and add them in to our own methods to develop new ideas and techniqiues as we go. That is what development is all about.
We are constantly in touch with all levels of the industry and are asked to test methods and products all the time as Paul can verify.
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The level (and style) of debate on this post alone suggests that it would be problematic to have a practical session on Leather Cleaning and Repair including so many different opinions. This is why Jason and I have taken this decsion for this year alone. I believe that for next year it would be better to have a diffent perspective and that LTT should (being the respected organisation that they are) have their opportunity as they did at last years CCDO.
Pete
Pete, not sure what you saying here, can you explain.
Is there going to be a practicle leather session this year? ie Paul doing quick cleans etc
Grrrrrr - at it again.
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Grrrrrrrr!
Just like kids - they argue and bicker, you pull them apart and tell em to stop it - turn your back and there at it again.
Good init ;D
Pete's reply is excellent and professional and makes sense even if this thread hadn't started. Can only presume Ben is very young as he has told a woman she is not always right and Paul has just made me want to go on his leather day all the more.
Also admire MB who lets other suppliers hijack his forum for their own gain then sits back as they self-implode.
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Can only presume Ben is very young as he has told a woman she is not always right
;D
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When I cleaned some head grease from leather as explained above I applied Ultra clean and HWE infact ultra clean is the only thing I clean leather with.
I didn't pioneer this, it was required to use a problem solver and it worked what more can I say?
Shaun
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It's usually me ranting, so it makes a change to be an observer. I've never attempted restoration work of that nature, but I am aware of others who carry it out very frequently and one of them certainly uses a machine, but at the moment I don't know how it's used or what type of machine.
I will try to find out more.
peace to all
rob
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Hi Robert
Not sure what you have seen but the von shrader machine is 1, the idea is to dissolve the grease bit by bit and then suck away the debris which comes off like a slurry, that's what happened when I did it.
Shaun
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I must be dreaming Shaun.......I had a V S machine and actually cleaned a few leather suites with it ( successfully ) but it's slower than more " evolved "methods
I can certainly see it getting a result in the way you decribe
rob
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As I said earlier, it's nice to have a good debate.
I think its time to close this thread and refleck on what's been said. ;)
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Naaaa, keep it going.
If nothing else this thread has shown there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Here is a quote from a book
" Being right is based on knowledge and experience and is often provable.
Knowledge comes from the past, so it is safe. It is also out of date.
It is the opposite of originality.
Experience is built from solutions to old situations and problems. The old situations are probably different from the present ones, so that the old solutions will have to be bent to fit new problems ( and possibly fit badly). Also the likelihood is that, if you've got the experience, you'll probably use it.
This is lazy.
Experience is the opposite to being creative.
If you can prove you're right, you're set in concrete. You cannot move with the times or the people.
Being right is also boring. Your mind is closed. You are not open to new ideas. You are rooted in your own rightness, which is arrogant. Arrogance is a valuable tool, but only if used sparingly.
Worst of all, being right has a tone of morality about it. To be anything else sounds weak or fallible, and people who are right would hate to be fallible.
So: it's wrong to be right, because people who are right are rooted in the past, rigid minded, dull and smug.
There is no talking to them"
I've seen this thread as the 'Old Master's' who know what they are doing against the people who are actually out there doing the work and trying different angles, and comeing up with solutions we can all benefit from.
I just want to know what works and what doesn't in real world scenerios.
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Dave your right some times you just need to stand back for a moment and then relook at things with fresh eyes, it always seems different ;)
Gary J, The last line of your thread below is spot on. :)
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Gary, I agree technicality is more profitable than triviality.
Yes Paul, this “smoke screen” is a distraction.
Objective is to remove the grease effectively.
Methods are subjective and plenty, just choose one that suits us best.
Remember, degreasing no matter how safe, will inevitably remove dye, fatliquor or wax effect.
Leather pH exposed to alkalinity, needs acidification to bring back to leather pH neutral of 3 – 5.
And the worn-off top coat in the first place needs a matching replacement.
If we have not prepared mentally for this job, as Paul said, just walk away.
Decision has to be made intentionally to switch from cleaning carpet to cleaning leather progressively thus making any attempt slaving it worth while in order to master it.
Leather calls for a high skill level with aptitude and attitude with interest.
I started off just like you people here with all the mistakes I made obliviously to the satisfaction of my customer at that time, they were happy so was I.
When I look back, 80% of the leather work I had done, I would not do it the same way today.
Sophisticated leather, this aniline wax pull-up certainly is.
Training is not a prerequisite if one is willing to follow a system strictly.
“I just want to know what works and what doesn't in real world scenerios”.
Only practice with the most technically sound system can make you an “expert” in the real world scenario.
This on-line interaction is one fantastic way to pick up all the tips and tricks of the trade.
The more you post the more you learn; this is the cheapest training format you ever get.
Keep on posting! Keep on learning!
Roger Koh
www.f.com
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Roger,pity your so far away. you sound like a good guy to meet,and very down to earth.
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Paul, “far away” is only approximate 8 hours away by air.
When profitable opportunities arise we shall meet.
In the meantime emails are just a finger touch away.
Also, would you like to preview any of the “down to earth” 79 products?
This is an opportunity to test it out and share your experience during CCDO in April!
Most people have not seen what a fatliquor is like in a bottle yet!
Fatliquor is the lifeblood of all leathers.
All leather products go through the tannery fatliquoring including woolskin, sheepskin, shearling, nubuck or suede.
As professional leather cleaners, we cannot ignore the fact that we need to replenish fatliquor that is lost through ageing and cleaning.
Products can be sent to you with my compliments. The “proof is in the eating of the pudding”.
Roger Koh.
www.f.com
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Thanks Roger pm sent :)
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Where do I retrieve the PM from?
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probably your email as PMs aren't used here.
Shaun
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Thanks, found it!
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Interesting post as usual Roger. I'm still puzzled by the web site I came accross some time ago, which I thought was yours. It had loads of information and photos' plus product information.
I downloaded advertising leaflets from the site, but lost them to a knackered laptop.
Incidentally I live in the village where much of the top U K leathers are produced and have been for at least a century, Bridge of Weir.
rob
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So, you are a “Carpet Guy?”
Would you like to be a successful “Leather Guy” too?
By providing top notch professional leather services to commercial establishment, luxurious homes, cars, airplanes, yachts and wholesale leather garment services to dry cleaners and hotels too.
Training is not a prerequisite, just follow a system and practice to make perfect.
And selling these products too, to diehard DIY.
Business opportunities in leather service are abound from head to toe to everything made for comfort, appeal and charm for both man and woman.
I was once upon a time a carpet guy too, now a die hard leather guy.
See what mutual business opportunities we can develop together.
I can supply, you can multiply!
All are welcome too!
Roger Koh
www.f.com
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Hi Roger
Are you going to be at the IICRC conference in Vancouver later this year? It would be interesting to meet up.
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Why not, it is always good reason why die hard leather guys or gals should meet.
It is either the “Yankee Vancouver” or the “British Vancouver”.
Beautiful Alpine Whistler 2010 Olympic Venue is hard to resist.
It gives you more than double reasons when you plan to come by this way.
Roger Koh