Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: tonyoliver on February 11, 2008, 12:39:04 pm

Title: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: tonyoliver on February 11, 2008, 12:39:04 pm
i have been going throgh the complaints since going wfp
i have been getting lots of complaints since december anyone else getting this?
a lot of custys were in at xmas time so saw the wfp for the first time

been wfp for  six months 20 yrs trad water 0 tds
no problms when 100 % trad
 
complaints vary from spots and smears  to streaks ect

 when i check the jobs over they vary in condition from the custy is right to complain, to why am i here they are perfect

in line with others on the forum i have lost only 12 jobs  in six months
through using  wfp  but gained many more .

some were wiped over after i called leaving greasy windows one had varnish on the windows one was old lead and not suitable for wfp one complained of spiders web on frame and the rest were drips on bottom windows.
i do belive that some  simply created an issue so that they could cancel

and others canceled so that you didnt use wfp but were happy with trad again even though i am not

i do not sH.. my self every day thinking am i going home tonight or not?
I AM NOT SO DOG TIRED THAT I SLUMP IN THE CHAIR AT NIGHT.

my window cleaning life is much sweeter but oh these complaints are getting me down a little.
as they seem to come in batches i have altered mystyle of cleaning
but do you think it is impossibe to please all of the people all of the tmie?OR AM I BEING TOO SENSETIVE ABOUT ALL THIS >:( :(

(http://)
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: Moderator David@stives on February 11, 2008, 12:51:11 pm
You cant please them all, the ones you have lost you maybe would have lost them in the future for some other reason, ie left the gate open , you have just got rid of them sooner than you would of.

Just be thourough, take your time and if they moan after that then you cant do any better.

Dont lose sleep over it.

Did you know most big firms have a dedicated complaints department.

BT have thousands  of complaints every week, do you think they lose sleep over it.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: poleman on February 11, 2008, 02:39:40 pm
Make sure that top frame is clean (water runs clear) and a good rinse, remember everyone of us WFP users have been what you are going through, (well most) stick with it, it will come good in time, I promise and dont lose the faith or your customers will  ;)

Andy
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: Blackbushe Windows on February 11, 2008, 03:05:27 pm
Totally agree with Dave. Make sure you do the job well & hopefully things will settle down.

Peter
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: NWH on February 11, 2008, 04:20:05 pm
Smears you don`t get from WFP,i think your reffering to the runs at the top of the glass.If you get this your not doing the top frame well enough or if you don`t do the top frame your going to high with the brush and only half doing it if you know what i mean,what brush are you using 9 times out of 10 that`s the problem and are you using enough water,it dosen`t matter if it`s 000 if your not using the right amount and giving the glass a good flushing.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: matt on February 11, 2008, 04:29:22 pm
welcome to the world of WFP ing ;)
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: NWH on February 11, 2008, 04:32:57 pm
welcome to the world of WFP ing ;)
I`ve said this before and i think it`s still right,if you get on with the customer they will give you the time to get it right,have confidence in what your doing and they`ll be less likely to go around checking after every clean.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: williamx on February 11, 2008, 05:14:41 pm
Spots on the bottom windows can occur when the tops are still dripping and the bonce off the window ledge onto the glass.

There are severals ways to retify this

Do all the tops front and back first, then wait a few minutes before you start on the bottoms.

Recheck the bottom windows after you have packed away, if there are still a few spots, blade the window dry and wipe the top of the bottom window frame.

On some windows you do get a little bit of smearing, what I do is add a little bit of gg3 and really scrub the glass then rinse off with plenty of pure water, after a couple of cleans this way the smearing stops.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: NWH on February 11, 2008, 05:16:09 pm
Never had any smearing myself.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: matt on February 11, 2008, 05:21:36 pm
welcome to the world of WFP ing ;)
I`ve said this before and i think it`s still right,if you get on with the customer they will give you the time to get it right,have confidence in what your doing and they`ll be less likely to go around checking after every clean.

indeed, if you mention it'll be good in a clean or 3, they mostly dont even btoehr checking

oh and ive said it before

it helps to just to the upstairs, at least you know the downstairs will be good by hand
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: L.J.Thorpe on February 11, 2008, 05:28:07 pm
welcome to the world of WFP ing ;)
I`ve said this before and i think it`s still right,if you get on with the customer they will give you the time to get it right,have confidence in what your doing and they`ll be less likely to go around checking after every clean.
very true i get on well with all but a handful of custs and most were very good and let me get on with it.I only lost 2 customers because they were not happy, 2 others i dropped because the windows were so crap it wasnt even worth trying,and one bungalow said he "didnt like all the mess" .But you still get em,just after xmas a bloke rung me to complain that he had just got home and his windows were dripping wet and there was a ticket saying i had cleaned em so what was going on???? the thing is i have ALWAYS done his windows wfp  ::) he just hadnt been there to see it so never knew any different ,just that this time he got home before they had dried ;D
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: NWH on February 11, 2008, 05:44:11 pm
welcome to the world of WFP ing ;)
I`ve said this before and i think it`s still right,if you get on with the customer they will give you the time to get it right,have confidence in what your doing and they`ll be less likely to go around checking after every clean.

indeed, if you mention it'll be good in a clean or 3, they mostly dont even btoehr checking

oh and ive said it before

it helps to just to the upstairs, at least you know the downstairs will be good by hand
I don`t find this to be as timesaving as doing the lot WFP,i`m looking to save as much time as poss.Most of my customer are out so it`s a bonus for me.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: tonyoliver on February 11, 2008, 08:39:31 pm
thanks for the reconfidence boost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: Londoner on February 12, 2008, 07:11:10 am
I have the same sort of things all the time and it does wear you down. WFP is a compromise and not everyone is going to like it.

The thing to remember is that 95% or more of your customers are fine with it. You are working more than 5% faster and making more than 5% more money so you are ahead of the game.

OK so you lose a few, you are running a business. taylor your business to your needs and part of it is having customers that fit in with your plans.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: barry80 on February 12, 2008, 09:28:49 pm
JUST FACE IT LADS!!!!!! WFP IS RUBBISH ITS LIKE TRYING TO PAINT WINDOW FRAMES WITH A HOSE PIPE , OR HAVING A CHOCOLATE FIRE GAURD IN YOUR LIVING ROOM   :(,  INVEST IN LADDERS!!  AND GOOD OLD ELBOW GREASE LIKE IVE BEEN DOING FOR 25 YEARS. I GUARANTEE  YOU GET 110% NO COMPLAINTS THIS WAY EVER !!!
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: NWH on February 12, 2008, 09:32:44 pm
JUST FACE IT LADS!!!!!! WFP IS RUBBISH ITS LIKE TRYING TO PAINT WINDOW FRAMES WITH A HOSE PIPE , OR HAVING A CHOCOLATE FIRE GAURD IN YOUR LIVING ROOM   :(,  INVEST IN LADDERS!!  AND GOOD OLD ELBOW GREASE LIKE IVE BEEN DOING FOR 25 YEARS. I GUARANTEE  YOU GET 110% NO COMPLAINTS THIS WAY EVER !!!
When i feel like cutting my income in half i might consider that one. ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: [GQC] Tim on February 12, 2008, 09:38:12 pm
JUST FACE IT LADS!!!!!! WFP IS RUBBISH ITS LIKE TRYING TO PAINT WINDOW FRAMES WITH A HOSE PIPE , OR HAVING A CHOCOLATE FIRE GAURD IN YOUR LIVING ROOM   :(,  INVEST IN LADDERS!!  AND GOOD OLD ELBOW GREASE LIKE IVE BEEN DOING FOR 25 YEARS. I GUARANTEE  YOU GET 110% NO COMPLAINTS THIS WAY EVER !!!

Troll
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: NWH on February 12, 2008, 09:39:56 pm
The way forward is to think about getting off the ladder not falling off it.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: L.J.Thorpe on February 12, 2008, 09:41:38 pm
JUST FACE IT LADS!!!!!! WFP IS RUBBISH ITS LIKE TRYING TO PAINT WINDOW FRAMES WITH A HOSE PIPE , OR HAVING A CHOCOLATE FIRE GAURD IN YOUR LIVING ROOM :(, INVEST IN LADDERS!! AND GOOD OLD ELBOW GREASE LIKE IVE BEEN DOING FOR 25 YEARS. I GUARANTEE YOU GET 110% NO COMPLAINTS THIS WAY EVER !!!
you are gonna last about 5 minutes on here ::) 95% of custs just want muck cleaning off THEY DONT SPEND ALL DAY CHECKING WINDOWS AND THEY STILL PAY SO WHY WOULD I WANT TO GO BACK TO ROOF WORK by the way if you press the caps lock again you can turn the capital letters OFF ;D
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: johnny_h on February 12, 2008, 09:45:45 pm
JUST FACE IT LADS!!!!!! WFP IS RUBBISH ITS LIKE TRYING TO PAINT WINDOW FRAMES WITH A HOSE PIPE , OR HAVING A CHOCOLATE FIRE GAURD IN YOUR LIVING ROOM   :(,  INVEST IN LADDERS!!  AND GOOD OLD ELBOW GREASE LIKE IVE BEEN DOING FOR 25 YEARS. I GUARANTEE  YOU GET 110% NO COMPLAINTS THIS WAY EVER !!!
here we go another wind up merchent
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: dai on February 12, 2008, 09:49:26 pm
Barry, you must be a hell of a lot better than me mate, I had more complaints when I was trad than ever I do now with WFP. They seem to accept a few spots a lot easier than a squeegee kick, or a detailing streak.
Just a thought, when doing them trad, they can instantly see if you leave the slightest mark. With WFP your long gone before they dry. lol
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: poleman on February 12, 2008, 09:51:19 pm
Quote
I GUARANTEE YOU GET 110% NO COMPLAINTS THIS WAY EVER !!!

ERRR I was a trad window cleaner for 15 years, customers will always complain, they did before WFP

Andy
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: NWH on February 12, 2008, 09:52:56 pm
If you have your rounds worth of work up to a good standard with using WFP if you then choose to employ and teach that person the right tecnique they will get less complaints working WFP than they would trad.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: L.J.Thorpe on February 12, 2008, 09:54:31 pm
Barry, you must be a hell of a lot better than me mate, I had more complaints when I was trad than ever I do now with WFP. They seem to accept a few spots a lot easier than a squeegee kick, or a detailing streak.
Just a thought, when doing them trad, they can instantly see if you leave the slightest mark. With WFP your long gone before they dry. lol
damn right ;D ;D ;D i have said this before but its a LOT easier to make a window look crap trad than it is with wfp
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: brett walker on February 12, 2008, 10:02:36 pm
JUST FACE IT LADS!!!!!! WFP IS RUBBISH ITS LIKE TRYING TO PAINT WINDOW FRAMES WITH A HOSE PIPE , OR HAVING A CHOCOLATE FIRE GAURD IN YOUR LIVING ROOM   :(,  INVEST IN LADDERS!!  AND GOOD OLD ELBOW GREASE LIKE IVE BEEN DOING FOR 25 YEARS. I GUARANTEE  YOU GET 110% NO COMPLAINTS THIS WAY EVER !!!

HELLO AND WELCOME

TO CLEAN IT UP.

i find your manner a bit ignorant we are all here to help each other traditional and wfp, ive only been going 17 yrs looks like you are a very good hard worker doing trad for 25 yrs using ladders

perhaps you could help some of the newbies on the trad side

do you mind if i ask you why you are so anti wfp have you tried it?

if you ever decide to change over to wfp give me a shout i only live in nottingham :)

regards

Brett
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: Londoner on February 13, 2008, 07:23:01 am
All business is about making money. In the real world running a sucessful business means having a level of complaints.
Look at Macdonalds, crap food, take it or leave it menu, uncomfortable seats yet people are queueing up to buy from them.
Yet down the road in most towns there's a brilliant little cafe that does great food, much better choice, will cook your eggs how you like them etc etc. Why aren't all the customers going there?

People just want convenience. You are not going to please everybody. I've got a call back this morning to a bungalow I did trad on Monday. Thats how this job is.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: geoffreyspecht on February 13, 2008, 01:16:29 pm
never get any complaints
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: williamx on February 13, 2008, 03:47:07 pm
JUST FACE IT LADS!!!!!! WFP IS RUBBISH ITS LIKE TRYING TO PAINT WINDOW FRAMES WITH A HOSE PIPE , OR HAVING A CHOCOLATE FIRE GAURD IN YOUR LIVING ROOM   :(,  INVEST IN LADDERS!!  AND GOOD OLD ELBOW GREASE LIKE IVE BEEN DOING FOR 25 YEARS. I GUARANTEE  YOU GET 110% NO COMPLAINTS THIS WAY EVER !!!

Just got a bottle of champange for easter off one of my customers today, in gratitude for the service I give.

She and 10 of her neighbours ( they are all elderly and have been using him for years) sacked their prevoius trad cleaner last year because in her words "he is crap at cleaning windows" he has only been a window cleaner for the last 30 years. so he will soon learn how to do it.

And the point is, it does not matter if you use a wfp or are more traditional with cleaning windows, its whether you can clean them correctly, and both methods work, with the right amount of skill.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: Londoner on February 13, 2008, 05:04:54 pm
never get any complaints

In that case you are working too hard.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: windowwashers on February 13, 2008, 05:46:56 pm
JUST FACE IT LADS!!!!!! WFP IS RUBBISH ITS LIKE TRYING TO PAINT WINDOW FRAMES WITH A HOSE PIPE , OR HAVING A CHOCOLATE FIRE GAURD IN YOUR LIVING ROOM   :(,  INVEST IN LADDERS!!  AND GOOD OLD ELBOW GREASE LIKE IVE BEEN DOING FOR 25 YEARS. I GUARANTEE  YOU GET 110% NO COMPLAINTS THIS WAY EVER !!!
In 25 uears time I want to be retired  ;) Think I will stick with WFP.

110% no complaints doing trad you must be the only window cleaner in the UK or you do not get new custom, everyone moans at one point be it they had a bad day at the office or whatever, it is in everyone nature to complain, I very rarely get complaints but I still get them both trad and wfp.

Ian
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: G Griffin on February 13, 2008, 05:56:32 pm
Who says he`s a trad wc (Barry)?

He might be a painter and decorator. Then he`s right. Better to use ladders for painting window frames than a hose pipe.

                 Gerry  ;D.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: windowwashers on February 13, 2008, 06:00:41 pm
Who says he`s a trad wc (Barry)?

He might be a painter and decorator. Then he`s right. Better to use ladders for painting window frames than a hose pipe.

                 Gerry  ;D.
it was a rough guess seeing this is a window cleaning forum  :P

Ian  ;D
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: dai on February 13, 2008, 06:11:01 pm
I was thinking about this post when out working today. I couldn't remember when I last had a justifiable complaint. Sods law, one of my long standing customers came up to me and said she was cancelling. I asked if there was a problem, she replied yes. " I don't like that pole thing, it left my window sill dirty". Fair enough, but she has conveniently forgotten that all her plastic frames and PVC doors are all gleaming, and she gets the job done for the same price as when I was Trad.
Do you guys find that the ones you lose, are usually the ones your glad to see the back of? Dai
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: windowwashers on February 13, 2008, 06:17:10 pm
I was thinking about this post when out working today. I couldn't remember when I last had a justifiable complaint. Sods law, one of my long standing customers came up to me and said she was cancelling. I asked if there was a problem, she replied yes. " I don't like that pole thing, it left my window sill dirty". Fair enough, but she has conveniently forgotten that all her plastic frames and PVC doors are all gleaming, and she gets the job done for the same price as when I was Trad.
Do you guys find that the ones you lose, are usually the ones your glad to see the back of? Dai

most of the time yes  ;D
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: G Griffin on February 13, 2008, 06:18:07 pm
I just thought it was a poor analogy- wfp and painting with a hose pipe.
  I had a picture in my head  :P of him painting with a hose pipe.
    Just ignore me, I`m in one of those moods  :-\.

                      Gerry.
               ps. anyone know where I can get a 1000 litres of elbow grease.  
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: Jeff Brimble on February 13, 2008, 09:00:14 pm
Same place you get a Packet of Blue Sparks  ;D
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: barry80 on February 13, 2008, 10:12:05 pm
Just got a bottle of champange for easter off one of my customers today, in gratitude for the service I give.

She and 10 of her neighbours ( they are all elderly and have been using him for years) sacked their prevoius trad cleaner last year because in her words "he is crap at cleaning windows" he has only been a window cleaner for the last 30 years. so he will soon learn how to do it.

And the point is, it does not matter if you use a wfp or are more traditional with cleaning windows, its whether you can clean them correctly, and both   WELL WELL LADS, OLD PEOPLE PUT UP WITH POLES (WFP) ETC ,BUT 75% MY CUSTS ARE YOUNG GEN! THEY EXPECT THE BEST, THATS WHY THEY EMPLOY MY PERFECT SKILLED TRAD SERVICES, IVE JUST STARTED ADVERTISEING THAT I DONT USE WFP , TRAD ONLY! GUESS WHAT? MY PHONE NEVER STOPS RINGING SO MY ROUND GETS BIGGER BY THE SECOND  , AS FOR CHAMPANGE WELL I GET BOTTLES OF  VINTAGE WHISKY, I PREFER THAT MORE TO CHAMPS.  ;)
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: AuRavelling79 on February 13, 2008, 10:23:50 pm
Just got a bottle of champange for easter off one of my customers today, in gratitude for the service I give.

She and 10 of her neighbours ( they are all elderly and have been using him for years) sacked their prevoius trad cleaner last year because in her words "he is crap at cleaning windows" he has only been a window cleaner for the last 30 years. so he will soon learn how to do it.

And the point is, it does not matter if you use a wfp or are more traditional with cleaning windows, its whether you can clean them correctly, and both   WELL WELL LADS, OLD PEOPLE PUT UP WITH POLES (WFP) ETC ,BUT 75% MY CUSTS ARE YOUNG GEN! THEY EXPECT THE BEST, THATS WHY THEY EMPLOY MY PERFECT SKILLED TRAD SERVICES, IVE JUST STARTED ADVERTISEING THAT I DONT USE WFP , TRAD ONLY! GUESS WHAT? MY PHONE NEVER STOPS RINGING SO MY ROUND GETS BIGGER BY THE SECOND  , AS FOR CHAMPANGE WELL I GET BOTTLES OF  VINTAGE WHISKY, I PREFER THAT MORE TO CHAMPS.  ;)

That's the spirit Barry80! If only more people had your attitude, eh?

I must say I am surprised that you need to go on a trad. advertising campaign after 25 years of perfection at window cleaning ... I'd have thought your expert ways would have had you gaining referrals by the bucket load!

I bow to your greater wisdom, please teach me.
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: d s windowcleaning on February 13, 2008, 10:28:36 pm
i reckon barry80 you talk out of your a**e nobodys perfect mate , you minght think you are ,but from time to time we all do things to a bit below standard . im not saying we mean to but it happens .                                                        ANYWAY GO GET A WFP AND YOU WILL GET EVEN MORE CUSTOM CAUSE FACT YOU WILL BE DOING A BETTER JOB THEN YOU MINGHT BE NEARLY PERFECT .   Young or old mate my customers love wfp and see the diffrance pal  so the best thing for you mate is  :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: Londoner on February 14, 2008, 07:42:53 am
I had a customer complain that I hadn't done her bungalow with WFP. I was running low on water so I did them trad. She saw me and was out like a shot.

This lady was very dubious about WFP a year ago. How quickly things change.

Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: windowwashers on February 14, 2008, 07:49:21 am
Just got a bottle of champange for easter off one of my customers today, in gratitude for the service I give.

She and 10 of her neighbours ( they are all elderly and have been using him for years) sacked their prevoius trad cleaner last year because in her words "he is crap at cleaning windows" he has only been a window cleaner for the last 30 years. so he will soon learn how to do it.

And the point is, it does not matter if you use a wfp or are more traditional with cleaning windows, its whether you can clean them correctly, and both   WELL WELL LADS, OLD PEOPLE PUT UP WITH POLES (WFP) ETC ,BUT 75% MY CUSTS ARE YOUNG GEN! THEY EXPECT THE BEST, THATS WHY THEY EMPLOY MY PERFECT SKILLED TRAD SERVICES, IVE JUST STARTED ADVERTISEING THAT I DONT USE WFP , TRAD ONLY! GUESS WHAT? MY PHONE NEVER STOPS RINGING SO MY ROUND GETS BIGGER BY THE SECOND  , AS FOR CHAMPANGE WELL I GET BOTTLES OF  VINTAGE WHISKY, I PREFER THAT MORE TO CHAMPS.  ;)
I advertise both so get the best of both worlds  ;)

Ian
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: Helen on February 14, 2008, 06:32:04 pm
WELL WELL LADS, OLD PEOPLE PUT UP WITH POLES (WFP) ETC ,BUT 75% MY CUSTS ARE YOUNG GEN! THEY EXPECT THE BEST, THATS WHY THEY EMPLOY MY PERFECT SKILLED TRAD SERVICES, IVE JUST STARTED ADVERTISEING THAT I DONT USE WFP , TRAD ONLY! GUESS WHAT? MY PHONE NEVER STOPS RINGING SO MY ROUND GETS BIGGER BY THE SECOND  , AS FOR CHAMPANGE WELL I GET BOTTLES OF  VINTAGE WHISKY, I PREFER THAT MORE TO CHAMPS.  ;)
Been said, but after 25 years of ladderwork and the best form of window cleaning in your opinion (trad) why do you need to advertise, If you hadn't built a decent living in 7 years and since then sustained it, must mean you have lost a lot along the way... ??? If I was till advertising after 25 years, I think I might just have cottoned o to the fact that there is sopmething wrong big time.
Also been said.....get your cap lock off mate and stop SHOUTING at us ;D
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: Londoner on February 15, 2008, 07:49:53 am
Oh dear it looks like we have found another one. Still he won't be logged on at this time of the morning because he's too busy hitching the horse up to the cart.

Customers dont like vans you know............

suprised he's got a computer, probably keeps that secret from his customers. 
Title: Re: COMPLAINTS complaints complaints
Post by: mark dew on February 15, 2008, 08:09:54 am
MY PHONE NEVER STOPS RINGING SO MY ROUND GETS BIGGER BY THE SECOND 

Bless!!
These type of posts make me laugh. Its been nearly 36 hours since this was posted. Your round must be huge by now. You must have work for all of us. ;D