Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: geefree on February 10, 2008, 10:54:58 am
-
Hi,
Can you guys who employ tell me if you have problems holding on to your employees,?
We have raised one or two issues on this forum regarding feeling a little ,lets say a little embarrassed ,...... telling people you are a window cleaner ( lets not debate this part its been done)....
and i simply wondered if you guys had any problems keeping staff,
1/ The above reason, so leave when they find a better line of work.
2/ Decide to go alone
3/ Cant handle the weather
Or simply use window cleaning as a stop gap .
Im too inexperienced and not big enough to employ, and i aint knocking window cleaning as i love this job,
i simply am curious as to wether they have the desire to work in our game , as we do but because its our own, we have to be driven by desire.
Hope i hve worded all that correctly. ;)
gary.
-
I think, to broaden the question, everyone who employs staff no matter what the business finds it hard to keep them.
Either they are so useless and lazy that they make themselves unemployable or they want to better themselves.
Years ago when I worked for Kodak I had occasion to visit one of our customers who had a shop in Camberley. The girl who worked in the shop was quite pleasant and made me a coffee and said she was waiting for her exam results.
Next time I went there a few weeks later she had gone but I asked the manager if she got the grades she was hoping for.
He couldn't even remember which girl I was talking about. They had such a turnover in staff that it was just a blur to him.
-
Dont talk to me about staff !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since christmas, my staff have only worked on average of 25 hours each per week although they should have worked 40 plus.
Only once have they stopped for the weather, even though it brightened up later one of them dissappeared for the day, wouldnt answer his phone suprise suprise.
Other excuse have been
Dentist twice
got bladdered and couldnt remember a thing until he woke up at 1.00pm
had an interview for the marines 3 times
had to help someone to move house , sloped off without telling me
flu
the trots 3 times
baby kept them up all night
had to finish early to get to Bristol for the weekend 3 times.
many more skives , finishing early
Hang on writing it down has just put it into perspective ,gulp !!!!!!
I am going to toss a coin and sack one of them on Monday
-
Dont talk to me about staff !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since christmas, my staff have only worked on average of 25 hours each per week although they should have worked 40 plus.
Only once have they stopped for the weather, even though it brightened up later one of them dissappeared for the day, wouldnt answer his phone suprise suprise.
Other excuse have been
Dentist twice
got bladdered and couldnt remember a thing until he woke up at 1.00pm
had an interview for the marines 3 times
had to help someone to move house , sloped off without telling me
flu
the trots 3 times
baby kept them up all night
had to finish early to get to Bristol for the weekend 3 times.
many more skives , finishing early
Hang on writing it down has just put it into perspective ,gulp !!!!!!
I am going to toss a coin and sack one of them on Monday
dont take anymore excuses sack the lot :D :D
good luck
mike
-
Dont talk to me about staff !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since christmas, my staff have only worked on average of 25 hours each per week although they should have worked 40 plus.
Only once have they stopped for the weather, even though it brightened up later one of them dissappeared for the day, wouldnt answer his phone suprise suprise.
Other excuse have been
Dentist twice
got bladdered and couldnt remember a thing until he woke up at 1.00pm
had an interview for the marines 3 times
had to help someone to move house , sloped off without telling me
flu
the trots 3 times
baby kept them up all night
had to finish early to get to Bristol for the weekend 3 times.
many more skives , finishing early
Hang on writing it down has just put it into perspective ,gulp !!!!!!
I am going to toss a coin and sack one of them on Monday
That is why i stopped employing, just me and my dad and we both know where we stand :)
-
i have been thinking about this, personally i just dont think its worth emplying extra people, ok i have 1 guy who works for me, hes great, works hard and understands when its raingin we aint working so no money
but then you could send off 2 other lads in a van and they could skiive all day, "it rained" and all that malarcy, and still expect to get paid at the end of the day.
how much money can you honestly pay them, some people say 30 % of what theyve earned, but who is gonna earn £200 a day and then take £60 happily? if it was me id certainly begrudge it, ok they might think its good for the first couple of months, but when they start thinking, hang on i could do this myself, your screwed.
my advice, build up your round till you cant cope on your own, take someone else with you all the time, then when it gets too much for both of you, rent it out or cull crap work
-
Dont talk to me about staff !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since christmas, my staff have only worked on average of 25 hours each per week although they should have worked 40 plus.
Only once have they stopped for the weather, even though it brightened up later one of them dissappeared for the day, wouldnt answer his phone suprise suprise.
Other excuse have been
Dentist twice
got bladdered and couldnt remember a thing until he woke up at 1.00pm
had an interview for the marines 3 times
had to help someone to move house , sloped off without telling me
flu
the trots 3 times
baby kept them up all night
had to finish early to get to Bristol for the weekend 3 times.
many more skives , finishing early
Hang on writing it down has just put it into perspective ,gulp !!!!!!
I am going to toss a coin and sack one of them on Monday
Perhaps one of them will have that office job you offered me :)
-
The ideal person to employ as a window cleaner, is someone who is at least 40 years old, you need to pay them a small retainer per hour with the rest made up of commision, this should equal 50% of the total charge for the job.
You need to provide a van, fuel and all their equipment, plus a company uniform and id badge, showing who they are and what their position in the company is.
They should have a working day of 6 hours and have a working week of 4 days, which they choose to work.
They have their own customers who they telephone the night before to let them know they will be cleaning them tommorow.
With this working package, you will find that they will look after your business as if its was their own, they will treat your customers with respect and because they are receiving more than 50% of the price of the job they won't have ambitions to start on their own.
-
The ideal person to employ as a window cleaner, is someone who is at least 40 years old, you need to pay them a small retainer per hour with the rest made up of commision, this should equal 50% of the total charge for the job.
You need to provide a van, fuel and all their equipment, plus a company uniform and id badge, showing who they are and what their position in the company is.
They should have a working day of 6 hours and have a working week of 4 days, which they choose to work.
They have their own customers who they telephone the night before to let them know they will be cleaning them tommorow.
With this working package, you will find that they will look after your business as if its was their own, they will treat your customers with respect and because they are receiving more than 50% of the price of the job they won't have ambitions to start on their own.
How much money would you expect to be earned per day to justify that deal?
Arthur
-
My thoughts would certainley not work for us Northern WC
-
Hi Williamx
Do you employ many window cleaners?
-
A typical wfp window cleaner, who knows what he doing will clean 3 to 5 houses per hour, at £10.00 per house = £30.00 to £50.00 per hour x 6 hours = £180.00 to £300.00 x 4 Days = £720.00 to £1200.00.
Costs
Wage £360.00 to £600.00
Nat In £35.84 to £66.56
Van £50.00
Fuel £25.00
Misc £75.00
Gross Profit £174.16 to £383.44 per week or £8359.68 to £18405.12 per year (based on a 48 week year).
These are only example figures, but they should be the minimum that you would expect to turnover.
-
Hi Williamx
Do you employ many window cleaners?
In a previous life, I use to employ staff and treat them the same way.
My goal is that in the next 3 years I will have 10 cleaners working for me.
-
William if you work on the figures you have posted you will be skint.
-
I admitt I don't know anything about it, but the figures looked okay if the guy could self manage and was reliable.
What else should he have in his profile? he's forty, should he be english or polish?
Is it full time work or should he have another job or be on a pension?
Using myself as an example and my own work, I would struggle to earn £90 most days and I find the work very hard.
We all seem to struggle with this employing question from wannabees like me to people who have done it and shrank back. Also If it tips you into VAT the 50% becomes 60%, plus paying 10% on your own work.
I think Ian Lancasters talk at windex might be the best bet.
-
A typical wfp window cleaner, who knows what he doing will clean 3 to 5 houses per hour, at £10.00 per house = £30.00 to £50.00 per hour x 6 hours = £180.00 to £300.00 x 4 Days = £720.00 to £1200.00.
Costs
Wage £360.00 to £600.00
Nat In £35.84 to £66.56
Van £50.00
Fuel £25.00
Misc £75.00
Gross Profit £174.16 to £383.44 per week or £8359.68 to £18405.12 per year (based on a 48 week year).
These are only example figures, but they should be the minimum that you would expect to turnover.
I don't like to pick holes in your figures....BUT!
Reality is that nobody actually works 6 hours on the trot...there's time spent getting from job to job...unpacking/packing equipment etc...
My experience is that if I'm out "working" for 6 hours in reality I actually "work" for 4 and a half.
That said, i think you're on the right lines in that employees have to earn a sensible living in what can be a pretty pooty job sometimes!
If...and it's a big if I employ, it would be because I simply had too much work to do on my own. I would pay top $...somewhere along the lines of 75% of the guys take...on the basis that the 25% I get would be 25% more than I'd get if i didn't employ him and had to let the work go.
If he makes £1000 a week....fantastic!
-
Vat?
-
Stop swearing ;D
-
A working day of 6 hours is on;y a token figure, the same applies to 4 days a week when they work.
In reality, when they see that they can earn £350 a week for 24 hours work, they will think, why not work a little harder say 6 days a week or 10 hours a day 4 days a week, this now brings their earnings up-to £590 or more per week.
As for those who say they cannot turnover £100 per day, then you are doing something very wrong.
I would first look at your pricing, your should have a minimum charge of £5.00 front and £10.00 front and back, with a double charge on 1st cleans or those who want them cleaned every 3 months or longer.
The bigger the property and up goes the price, the houses that take longer to do then their price goes up accordingly.
Remember you are running a business, it might not be as big as Microsoft or Ionics, but its still a business, and therefore it needs to charge whats its worth for the service that you offer.
If you want to do a slap-dash clean, then charge peanuts, but if you offer a 100% clean then your customers will be willing to pay for it.
I understand that there are many cleaners who don't charge these type of figures, they all say that they would never get this amount from their customers, have they tried, I don't think so.
If you all increased your prices to a £10.00 minimum charge, then yes, you will lose some customers, but you won't lose everyone, the ones who stay will more than make up for the ones' that you have lost.
I cover various areas of Birmingham and when I first started I charged £5.00, the next week this had increased to £6.00 and 3 months later it went to £10.00. the reason for the price rises, was that I looked at what I do and what other trades-men do and charge.
For example a customer will call out a plumber or sparkie and expect to pay him a call out charge with him actually doing any work. (how many of you charge just to turn up, let alone do any cleaning)
If they call a cab they pay a minimum charge of £2.50 to £3.00. (if they change their minds they still have to pay this fare) how many of you charge your customers, when they don't want it done.
The general public are used to paying minimum charges, its just that window cleaners have never operated them much.
Its about time they started too.
-
A working day of 6 hours is on;y a token figure, the same applies to 4 days a week when they work.
In reality, when they see that they can earn £350 a week for 24 hours work, they will think, why not work a little harder say 6 days a week or 10 hours a day 4 days a week, this now brings their earnings up-to £590 or more per week.
As for those who say they cannot turnover £100 per day, then you are doing something very wrong.
I would first look at your pricing, your should have a minimum charge of £5.00 front and £10.00 front and back, with a double charge on 1st cleans or those who want them cleaned every 3 months or longer.
The bigger the property and up goes the price, the houses that take longer to do then their price goes up accordingly.
Remember you are running a business, it might not be as big as Microsoft or Ionics, but its still a business, and therefore it needs to charge whats its worth for the service that you offer.
If you want to do a slap-dash clean, then charge peanuts, but if you offer a 100% clean then your customers will be willing to pay for it.
I understand that there are many cleaners who don't charge these type of figures, they all say that they would never get this amount from their customers, have they tried, I don't think so.
If you all increased your prices to a £10.00 minimum charge, then yes, you will lose some customers, but you won't lose everyone, the ones who stay will more than make up for the ones' that you have lost.
I cover various areas of Birmingham and when I first started I charged £5.00, the next week this had increased to £6.00 and 3 months later it went to £10.00. the reason for the price rises, was that I looked at what I do and what other trades-men do and charge.
For example a customer will call out a plumber or sparkie and expect to pay him a call out charge with him actually doing any work. (how many of you charge just to turn up, let alone do any cleaning)
If they call a cab they pay a minimum charge of £2.50 to £3.00. (if they change their minds they still have to pay this fare) how many of you charge your customers, when they don't want it done.
The general public are used to paying minimum charges, its just that window cleaners have never operated them much.
Its about time they started too.
Theory is a wonderful thing, mainley for the dreamers among us! ;)
If, indeed this was correct, you would be doing just this right now wouldn't you Mr.X?
Tony
-
William if you work on the figures you have posted you will be skint.
With these figures I show an operating gross profit of 25% for doing very little work, most businesses work love these figures.
-
William
if you had D Woods business you would be very happy indeed.
Listen to that man, and check out his website
http://www.allcleanservices.co.uk/All_Clean/Window_Cleaning_Clients.html
-
A working day of 6 hours is on;y a token figure, the same applies to 4 days a week when they work.
In reality, when they see that they can earn £350 a week for 24 hours work, they will think, why not work a little harder say 6 days a week or 10 hours a day 4 days a week, this now brings their earnings up-to £590 or more per week.
As for those who say they cannot turnover £100 per day, then you are doing something very wrong.
I would first look at your pricing, your should have a minimum charge of £5.00 front and £10.00 front and back, with a double charge on 1st cleans or those who want them cleaned every 3 months or longer.
The bigger the property and up goes the price, the houses that take longer to do then their price goes up accordingly.
Remember you are running a business, it might not be as big as Microsoft or Ionics, but its still a business, and therefore it needs to charge whats its worth for the service that you offer.
If you want to do a slap-dash clean, then charge peanuts, but if you offer a 100% clean then your customers will be willing to pay for it.
I understand that there are many cleaners who don't charge these type of figures, they all say that they would never get this amount from their customers, have they tried, I don't think so.
If you all increased your prices to a £10.00 minimum charge, then yes, you will lose some customers, but you won't lose everyone, the ones who stay will more than make up for the ones' that you have lost.
I cover various areas of Birmingham and when I first started I charged £5.00, the next week this had increased to £6.00 and 3 months later it went to £10.00. the reason for the price rises, was that I looked at what I do and what other trades-men do and charge.
For example a customer will call out a plumber or sparkie and expect to pay him a call out charge with him actually doing any work. (how many of you charge just to turn up, let alone do any cleaning)
If they call a cab they pay a minimum charge of £2.50 to £3.00. (if they change their minds they still have to pay this fare) how many of you charge your customers, when they don't want it done.
The general public are used to paying minimum charges, its just that window cleaners have never operated them much.
Its about time they started too.
Theory is a wonderful thing, mainley for the dreamers among us! ;)
If, indeed this was correct, you would be doing just this right now wouldn't you Mr.X?
Tony
I have since January started to increase my customer base drastically, I intend to have 3 to 5 cleaners on the books within 18 months, and 10 cleaners within 3 years, with a turnover of £500000 per year.
And with any venture you need to work out some sort of operating costs with a business plan, this has been done.
And I already have over 5 years experence of running a million pound business, that employed people who were paid in the same fashion.
-
Thanks for that William, I think I am the dreamer tony mentions. To clarify I mean't if I was the worker I would be on £90 a day.
-
Also, my intensions are to have 1000 employees with 500 vans on the road.
Would it be possible? maybe, but the chances are it won't so i'll stay in reality for now. ;)
Tony
-
D woods you obviously run a very succesful business and yet you say williamx figures dont add up , we run a small business employing 19 staff a few only being part time and williamx figures seemed reasonable to me, could it be that due to the investment you have made in cherrypickers and training etc that your prices have to have a larger profit ratio to cover you costs, what sort of wages do you pay your men and how much are they expected to earn you, i understand if you dont want to put this information on here but i am curious how large firms like yourselves can gain really good prices when competing with the likes of OCS etc.
your website also shows the measures and costs you go to when training your staff do you find that you retain the staff ok or do they just recieve all this training for free then go elsewhere or start on their own.
-
Hi,
so do you find it easy to keep staff or hard . ;) ;D
-
we find that we have a good base of staff that have been with us for between 6 and 10 years but over the last 3 years have found it really difficult when recruiting any new staff , i would say the staff we have employed over the last 3 years have caused us 90% of any problems.
-
Trevor
How many are window cleaners out of the people that employ ?
-
six are window cleaner but they dont only do window cleaning they also do pressure washing and other industrial cleaning tasks.
-
Hi Guys
I am not having a dig at William, or any one else but the figures posted would not leave a big enough margin if you are using P.A.Y.E. staff in company vans.
Their are so many overheads that have to come out of the profit. And that is not including anything for advertising.
-
A working day of 6 hours is on;y a token figure, the same applies to 4 days a week when they work.
In reality, when they see that they can earn £350 a week for 24 hours work, they will think, why not work a little harder say 6 days a week or 10 hours a day 4 days a week, this now brings their earnings up-to £590 or more per week.
As for those who say they cannot turnover £100 per day, then you are doing something very wrong.
I would first look at your pricing, your should have a minimum charge of £5.00 front and £10.00 front and back, with a double charge on 1st cleans or those who want them cleaned every 3 months or longer.
The bigger the property and up goes the price, the houses that take longer to do then their price goes up accordingly.
Remember you are running a business, it might not be as big as Microsoft or Ionics, but its still a business, and therefore it needs to charge whats its worth for the service that you offer.
If you want to do a slap-dash clean, then charge peanuts, but if you offer a 100% clean then your customers will be willing to pay for it.
I understand that there are many cleaners who don't charge these type of figures, they all say that they would never get this amount from their customers, have they tried, I don't think so.
If you all increased your prices to a £10.00 minimum charge, then yes, you will lose some customers, but you won't lose everyone, the ones who stay will more than make up for the ones' that you have lost.
I cover various areas of Birmingham and when I first started I charged £5.00, the next week this had increased to £6.00 and 3 months later it went to £10.00. the reason for the price rises, was that I looked at what I do and what other trades-men do and charge.
For example a customer will call out a plumber or sparkie and expect to pay him a call out charge with him actually doing any work. (how many of you charge just to turn up, let alone do any cleaning)
If they call a cab they pay a minimum charge of £2.50 to £3.00. (if they change their minds they still have to pay this fare) how many of you charge your customers, when they don't want it done.
The general public are used to paying minimum charges, its just that window cleaners have never operated them much.
Its about time they started too.
Theory is a wonderful thing, mainley for the dreamers among us! ;)
If, indeed this was correct, you would be doing just this right now wouldn't you Mr.X?
Tony
I have since January started to increase my customer base drastically, I intend to have 3 to 5 cleaners on the books within 18 months, and 10 cleaners within 3 years, with a turnover of £500000 per year.
And with any venture you need to work out some sort of operating costs with a business plan, this has been done.
And I already have over 5 years experence of running a million pound business, that employed people who were paid in the same fashion.
Rock a bye baby on a tree top, when the wind blows the cradle will rock, or something along those lines, yaaawwwn. ::)
I used to work for corus, their turnover was 1.2 billion, so, in theory, i too could turn over 1.2 billion, right?
Tony
I have just checked the companies figures that I use to work forand they are only turning over £800.3 million with a profit of £103 million, peanuts really.
As for you earning £1 billion, if you really really wanted too,why not, what don't you have that the bosses at corus have? if the answer is nothing then why not, other people seen to suceed in business why not a window cleaner.
-
Dave Woods
Are you going to Windex ?
Dave
-
Hi Dave
Yes I am going to Windex, it would be nice to meet up and have a chat.
-
I will drop you a mail close to the time so we can meet up.
Dave
-
OK
-
dave woods
i understand exactly what you are saying about hidden expenses such as office staff , company premises ,PAYE vehicles etc but companies like OCS etc run on much smaller profit margins and these are the companies that some middle sized firms are trying to compete with, and although i know the quality of work would be much better using a smaller firm these contracts seem to be more price orientated than quality orientated. ???
-
Hi Guys
I am not having a dig at William, or any one else but the figures posted would not leave a big enough margin if you are using P.A.Y.E. staff in company vans.
Their are so many overheads that have to come out of the profit. And that is not including anything for advertising.
Dave
No problem, all I was trying to show was what could be earned by employing staff who worked the bear minimum.
The profit margin would increase the more they did work though and I have found that the more incentives that you give the more you get from your staff.
I have found that in previous employments that good staff are like gold to get and kept, and paying poor wages or conditions is the fastest way to lose them.
-
Hi William
Yes you are right good staff are like Gold, And I have to say over the the last 12-18 months it seems for our business even harder than normal to find the right people.
And on top of this our overheads are continuing to rise.
-
Is Polish the answer?
-
To put Gazza's question another way- Dave and trev- (woods not morriss obviously), say all of us posting were all your in house managers with our differing ideas do you think it would be hard to keep us, or would we be head hunted?
-
Dave we don't employ any East Europeans, but I know of some window cleaning companies that do and they seem to do OK with them.
Mr S I don't know if you would get head hunted.
-
Is Polish the answer?
They can be if you pay them decent money
-
I am more thinking of there work ethic, where i live i watch them out on the fields picking flowers and veg in all weathers , then i look at my staff who are always messing me about.
Maybe i am employing the wrong type
-
Dave do you many of them in Cornwall ?
-
i would hire a pole for the reasons that they are here solely to earn money. They are in less of a position to grab your business and the fact that they are in a foreign country would mean that they are more of a blank canvass when it comes to training them up to the level you expect from an employee.
They would also be more grateful to find what in their case would be a very well paid job working sociable hours.
-
Dave
Theres thousands of them here working on the fields, the work is to hard for the locals, going back a few years the farmers were losing a fortune because they couldnt get there flowers picked in time, also the place stunk through cabages being left to rot in the ground.
The farmers got wise and built small camps for the polish and brought them over, they pay them about £1.00 over minimum wage.
-
If their is a lot of them it might be worth giving one a try.
-
we employ two portugese a father and his son they dont do the window cleaning but are employed on one site doing pressure washing their english is limited but enough to get by , they are both extremely good workers and eager to learn we didnt employ them for cheap labour they are on the same wages as our other staff doing the same job.
i think it would be harder to employ them window cleaning not that they couldnt do the job rather the working on different sites could cause comunication problems when dealing with office staff and the public etc