Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Rogue Trader on February 05, 2008, 06:32:07 pm
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I have just put together a leaflet and included the reach and wash logo (someone told me it was free to use) i didnt think any more of it then today got a call from Ionics saying that i had put a leaflet through one of their customers doors and he had contacted them. The guy from Ionics said i have to have one of their systems to use the logo and could i please stop using it ..... only problem is i have just had 10,000 printed! ... Any ideas?
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Bin em or be prepared to face court action
Rob ;D
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Just had a thought have a sticker done so you can cover their logo
Rob ;D
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I don't think there is much you can do except to take a hit on those leaflets put it down to experience. Now they have found out and contacted you, they will obviously not let it go now.
As it's a dispute you won't be able to win, you might as get their system or get new leaflets. There is no point in fighting a losing battle.
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Do as Rob says- put a sticker over it!pain in the ar@E, but maybe do a special offer ? Shame really to chuck 10k of them in the bin.
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just get a bright sticker made ( look on eby for custom stickers ) and have the words " act now, summer is coming " or something like that
failing that, just get the flyers out as they are ;)
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I think it is safe to say that Craig and his team do not like anyone using their copyrighted logo. He has obviously spent good money on the design and has made sure it is safe.
Do not underestimate that you may find yourself in a whole heap of brown stuff if you continue to put the leaflets out.
Sorry but if it was my design and you used it I would do the same - who told you you could use the logo?
Rob ;D
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I understand why Ionics have done this if you dont have there system as it is there branding, but why would you use it if you dont have there system? :-\
stand in the street and ask 20 people that walk past what it is and 19 will say they dont have a clue.
it is not hard to knock up a guy with a wfp in hand or be creative and use water in the shape of a guy doing it.
Hard lesson learnt , don't use copyright images without permission ;)
bin the flyers or as someone said put a sticker over the logo
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the sticker comment is a really good idea. If you can customise them with a good message or mentioning another service you can provide they would draw attention and make your leaflets look more eye-catching.
It could be a blessing in disguise. Especially if you promote a high value service on them, like fascia cleaning etc.
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i kno what i would do and i wouldnt deliver them ;D
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Sticker idea is a good one, however thats a lot of work to put 10k on (it would drive me up the wall)
Andy
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just to change the question slightly what could be done if you change the logo a bit,or face the man the opposite way
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Put BT on the stickers and highlight your landline number. :)
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Put BT on the stickers and highlight your landline number. :)
This one?
(http://regmedia.co.uk/2003/03/24/1044.gif)
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Put BT on the stickers and highlight your landline number. :)
This one?
(http://regmedia.co.uk/2003/03/24/1044.gif)
lol. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Love it ;D ;D ;D ;) ;)
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I was told by a local window cleaner to me (who has the logo on the side of his van and also doesnt have an ionics system) that it was the universal american wfp logo and was free to use. Only realised it was ionics logo when they called me today.
Put BT on the stickers and highlight your landline number. :)
This one?
(http://regmedia.co.uk/2003/03/24/1044.gif)
Nice one!! ;D
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I understand why Ionics have done this if you dont have there system as it is there branding, but why would you use it if you dont have there system? :-\
stand in the street and ask 20 people that walk past what it is and 19 will say they dont have a clue.
it is not hard to knock up a guy with a wfp in hand or be creative and use water in the shape of a guy doing it.
Hard lesson learnt , don't use copyright images without permission ;)
bin the flyers or as someone said put a sticker over the logo
We are not all part time window cleaners! I for one would find that real hard!
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I understand why Ionics have done this if you dont have there system as it is there branding, but why would you use it if you dont have there system? :-\
stand in the street and ask 20 people that walk past what it is and 19 will say they dont have a clue.
it is not hard to knock up a guy with a wfp in hand or be creative and use water in the shape of a guy doing it.
Hard lesson learnt , don't use copyright images without permission ;)
bin the flyers or as someone said put a sticker over the logo
We are not all part time window cleaners! I for one would find that real hard!
part time ?
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What are the odds of that happening ?
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Glad this has been brought up as am getting my van sign written in 2 weeks and the reach and wash sign was in the plans so better get on the phone to designer and get it changed, loads of people have the sign on there vans and dont believe theyve all got ionics.
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Midas
Even if you put stickers on the leaflets there could be a court case
Sorry bin them
Bryan
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or you could tell them you wont be using them any more now they have brought it to your attetion even though you have put a few out and get the rest out over the next few days most are likely to be put in the bin so what are the odds on some one else knowing the logo and reporting you , marc
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He said please ( which is nice ] After you have put out the flyers then its no problem . Lesson learnt !
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Are you sure the phone call was from Ionics and not just a "Wind Up"
Don't they normally send out letters for something so imporant, such as breach of copyright?
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I wouldn't worry. There is very little any one can do once they are out there, just redesign the next lot
LOL great advice! not
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and binning a load of paid for, perfectly good leaflets is??! ::)
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theyre not "perfectly good" if theyre gonna land the poor bo' in trouble are they?
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get real it was a genuine mistake and as far as the law is concerned it was not intent so stop trying to wind him up !
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matt believe me when i say you will be ok with your leaflets as i have been here before . If you are feeling nervous just reply and I will give you the links .
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not saying break the law or anything , but if he went ahead and delivered the 9,ooo or so leaflets he had left,.... how are ionics going to prove he delivered any of them after the warning letter. without following him.?
its not right i know, but hell, ionics are getting free brand marketting. here
lol. :D
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get real it was a genuine mistake and as far as the law is concerned it was not intent so stop trying to wind him up !
Ah so thats how the law works, right. A genuine mistake is ok., as long as its genuine mind and you cross your heart hope to die.
I'm off to rob a jewllers because if I'm caught I'll say "there was no intent, it was a genuine mistake your honour, I thought robbery was legal now" and he'll go, "no problem matey dont do it again"
LOL
If ever there was a topic that showed how to treat the advice on this forum, this is it. Not so much pinch of salt as handful of salt comes to mind
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Its not a wind up.
I have no doubt at all that a court case would follow if more leaflets are put out without changes, and the act of "trading off" would be very expensive because you cannot win such a blatent theft of trade mark case ( even if you didnt know) and you would have to pay the other parties legal fees and I would think their lawers wouldnt come cheap..
I would suggest you put a sticker over the logo, its not so time consuming if you did say 50 or 100 at a time.
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tennet what would be your advice ?
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tennet what would be your advice ?
Thats not very nice jona,i think you are a secret trouble maker lol
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tennet what is your advice to a fellow wc ? Isnt this site for helping each other ?
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sorry If I sound trivial but I just wanna help ones on here , If I am wrong then I will bow down to better advice !
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tennet what is your advice to a fellow wc ? Isnt this site for helping each other ?
jonah, some help on here, others just give negative advice and knock others
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My advice is: bin them and put it down to experience. Why risk the trouble? What if you put one through another blokes door who has an ionics system?
(I wouldnt say "i'm off to rob a jewllers" I'd just secretly think it. Top secretly.
Only when caught would I say there had been no intent, and hope they dont put me in a lie detector.
It would be a big fat dirty lie you see. Same as if this guy put these leaflets out now and feigned ignorance.
Want in on the jewllery shop do ya?)
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well I got in trouble few years back went on a forum for people in debt ! Advice I got on there got me £4000 back in bank charges ! If i met somone on here in same position would give them hours of my time cos somone else could be bothered to help me . ;D
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Its not a wind up.
I have no doubt at all that a court case would follow if more leaflets are put out without changes, and the act of "trading off" would be very expensive because you cannot win such a blatent theft of trade mark case ( even if you didnt know) and you would have to pay the other parties legal fees and I would think their lawers wouldnt come cheap..
I would suggest you put a sticker over the logo, its not so time consuming if you did say 50 or 100 at a time.
This getting out of hand but..
If Glyn was right and court action was threatened, here is what you could do....
For every reply you get from the leaflets borrow someone Ionics system and clean the windows for the first time and let the customer know that you'll use another system for every other clean which you feel is better..
or
Find out what the results are first and say the leafets were for a marketing excerise into how effective the Ionics logo is for getting work. If enough customers took it up you would buy/rent/borrow an Ionics system to do the work.
Either way would stand up in court as they can't prove you weren't buying or borrowing a machine to clean the windows.
case closed m'lord.
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My advice is: bin them and put it down to experience. Why risk the trouble? What if you put one through another blokes door who has an ionics system?
(I wouldnt say "i'm off to rob a jewllers" I'd just secretly think it. Top secretly.
Only when caught would I say there had been no intent, and hope they dont put me in a lie detector.
It would be a big fat dirty lie you see. Same as if this guy put these leaflets out now and feigned ignorance.
Want in on the jewllery shop do ya?)
LOL.
I'm in!
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To be fair .. most people know you cant simply attach someones logo to your company profile.
playing dumb is ok but we all know its not right....... but the warning call may just as well as come after he had delivered the lot
would i deliver them after this? , i cant answer yes or no truthfully,
I do find it really really strange however.... that a householder would pick up the leaflet , study it,... then think ... Hey i wonder if this guy owns this logo,... then rings the company up to check him out,
How odd.
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well I got in trouble few years back went on a forum for people in debt ! Advice I got on there got me £4000 back in bank charges ! If i met somone on here in same position would give them hours of my time cos somone else could be bothered to help me . ;D
i agree, the forum scene is great ;)
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Yep im with you gazza but we just try and give our opinion ....as useless as it is LOL ;D
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Thet are bringing back gladiaters on tv .................. I want you tenant clean ! >:(
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im not sure a phone call will hold up in court as a warning, who is to say that a visitor didnt answer your phone and didnt pass the info on
get them out in the next few days before they send you a letter ( which i guess they will after they read this )
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Yep im with you gazza but we just try and give our opinion ....as useless as it is LOL ;D
yours aint useless at all, the forum is brilliant for advice and without all you guys i simply would not be doing this now.. full stop.
i would not have a clue.
sorry for going off topic,
getting carried away there lol
all emotional then. lol.
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If you put the ionics name on it they might think you are very expensive ;D
not that im saying that ionics are expensive :-X ;)
i have the tucker pole picture on my van but i have left the little man off the end of the pole, wonder if tucker pole will be happy but its only a pic not mentioned their name
Brett..
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Thet are bringing back gladiaters on tv .................. I want you tenant clean !
Count me in!
I love the forum scene too. I got this to help me with it:
(http://timthefoolman.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/salt_shaker.jpg)
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so you are the "saltinater " ........too much and the chips are ruined ! or perhaps you have a chip on your shoulder ? ;)
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Could you not just go to a copy shop and use their guillotene to cut off the logo in 50 at a time or so, as most people will put a logo on either the top or the bottom of a page
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Bin them.
You do know what the word customer means don't you? One of their customers. an operator, has reported you, presumably after in turn one of their customers has shown it to them. Could it be any clearer for you? Do you think this person is going to let the matter drop if you carry on putting them out? If they are in possesion of one of your leaflets they already have all the evidence they need. Proceed at your peril.
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Originally you were breaking the law without intent or knowledge ( I presume!), now (if you continue using them) you will be breaking the law with intent and knowledge.
Ionic do very successfully litigate and would love to make an example of you, the £20,000 or so in their solicitors cost would be small change to them, however they would win and it would not be small change to you.
Do you want to risk breaking the law (with knowledge) and going bankrupt?
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Bin them.
You do know what the word customer means don't you? One of their customers. an operator, has reported you, presumably after in turn one of their customers has shown it to them. Could it be any clearer for you? Do you think this person is going to let the matter drop if you carry on putting them out? If they are in possesion of one of your leaflets they already have all the evidence they need. Proceed at your peril.
read this post again, it is spot on
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If it was my brand I would have you in court faster than you'd get a reply on this forum. What right have you or anyone else got to use someone elses logo, you would not have gotten a phone call from me first to warn you.
>:( >:(
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The other problem you have now is that whatever you might want to do or will do has been documented on here for the world to see, Ionics and their solicitors have all the proof they need from this forum.
Don't think for one minute that Ionics don't have friends on here that will happily tell them about this thread
Rob ;D
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when i first went wfp i was told by another cleaner dont put the ionics logo anywhere on your van they will take legal action if you dont have one of their machines it is copyrighted
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I have read all the posts and from the evidence my opinion would be to BIN THEM and put it down to experience.
If you try to put stickers on or cut the logo out you will get fed up and bin them anyway.
Adam
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If you had a different little man with a pole, and the words reach and clean, I couldn't see a problem.
You are merely presenting an honest image of your trade.
I think the words "REACH AND CLEAN" has a better ring to it anyway and I plan to use it. Dai
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Hi
i would put them all out and write a letter to say that i was sorry and next time i would charge them for the advertising ;D
tom
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Is it definitely a whole Ionics system you must have in order to use the logo or is it sufficient to simply buy and use one of their poles?
Apart from that, I am aware that they are a company that would use litigation. I may be wrong but I think that they weren't even obliged to give a warning. However, perhaps they take the view that it would not be in their best interests to sue a potential future customer and indeed, it could even harm their standing within the industry.
My view is that you've had a warning that they did not need to give.
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
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No, you cannot just buy their poles and use logo. I asked them that a few years ago after buying 2 poles from them
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why use their logo?
why promote their business?
dont push the term "reach and wash" term, instead use the term "water fed pole", unfortuantely the public and most people I meet use the term "reach and wash", its similar to using the term hoover. Luke
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Ionics import some of their products from America, they double the price, then sell it to the gulliable as if ts part of the Ionics brand.
These products are not protected by copyright that Ionics own, so you could buy these same products from the same company that Ionics use, and use that logo without fear of litigation from Ionics.
Also do Ionics own the copyright of the words "Reach & Wash"? I don't think so, but if they do, then they are missing out on hundreds of companies, who say they use such systems.
For example, I have been approached by several companys and councils to tender for work, which must be cleaned using the "Reach & Wash System" I have pointed out that I use a WFP system which in all purposes is a reach & wash system, but its not an Ionics product that costs many thousands of pounds.
They don't want you to have a Ionics system, they just want you to have a wfp system, but the name "Reach & Wash" is identified with wfp cleaning.
As for using their logo, this is illegal and you need to bin the leaflets. on your next leaflet get a photo of you, using a pole in the same manner as the Ionics logo, they can't copyright your face and image.
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what if all the leaflets had been posted before you recieved the phone call ? you couldnt bin them or cover the logo then .
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You would think that all advertising is good advertising. So why do ionics jump on anybody using their logo and not the system. I wonder if they have sold any systems just because the person buying loved the logo so much and had to have it. It would cost loads for an ad campaign if most van in every town had this logo on it. Maybe they are missing a trick here, free advertising and perhaps the chance to sell just the logo for people who would like to use it.
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These posts are making it worse. Nice one Sean very helpfull.
This is what you must do.
Write the most groveling apology you can think of as the very next post. Say that it was an unitentional mistake on your part, and that you intend to bin all the leaflets. Then lock the topic.
If it goes the legal route the best you could hope for is to settle out of court and pay their costs.
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Sean Rimmer, that cant be your real name surely? LOL!
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Having looked up registered trade marks of nearly every water fed pole supply company (I do this sad sort of things), Ionics have the phrase 'Reach & Wash' as a registered trade mark. Interestingly they do not have the phrase 'Reach and Wash' as a trade mark. However, they may still litigate if they felt your intention was to build upon their registered trade mark.
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I have just put together a leaflet and included the reach and wash logo (someone told me it was free to use) i didnt think any more of it then today got a call from Ionics saying that i had put a leaflet through one of their customers doors and he had contacted them. The guy from Ionics said i have to have one of their systems to use the logo and could i please stop using it ..... only problem is i have just had 10,000 printed! ... Any ideas?
Sorry Matt but the fact is you nicked the logo.. period. Lesson here is.. check the facts out don't just go one someone elses opinion.
The reason councils and big companies use the phrase Reach and Wash is that for better or worse Ionic's marketing has made it the Hoover of the WFP industry. They have obviously invested very heavilly in marketing and brand building and to their credit brought the use of WFP into everyday use.
Take the advice of people like Alex gardiner and Glyn from omnipole and bin the lot. If you don't it could well bankrupt you in the end. I will protect my own copywritten logo with litigation if it is ever used by anyone else. I am small fry compared to Ionics. They have basically given you the opportunity to refrain from using the logo without any further action. They will be aware of this thread here and without a doubt would drag you through a very expensive litigation process if you dont do what they have in in all honesty asked you nicely to do. I also will repeat.. continue at your peril.
You will always have the "get out of jail" replies to a problem like this but playing safe is by far your best bet.
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Why advertise Ionics if you don't get paid for it? I wouldn't advertise any WFP system. The only advertising on my van & website is for my benefit, nobody else gets a mention. I use Ionics WF poles and an Ionics cricket trolley but I wouldn't want to put an Ionics logo on my van because I'm not advertising freebies. If they paid me to advertise their stuff, then I might consider it............
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all you have said is "leaflets" how much did you spend ??? ??? ??? if its 10k mono flyers bin em if its 10 full colour a4 and they aint been folded then you could salvage em without using stickers or a guillotine depends on the costs really but can be done
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LOL nevermind. My childish humor I suppose. (and too much time on urbandictionary.com)
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crikey moses I didnt know that was still going.
Ah it brings me back to the ol' school days. Life was simple then...
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Having looked up registered trade marks of nearly every water fed pole supply company (I do this sad sort of things), Ionics have the phrase 'Reach & Wash' as a registered trade mark. Interestingly they do not have the phrase 'Reach and Wash' as a trade mark. However, they may still litigate if they felt your intention was to build upon their registered trade mark.
hmmm.. may be you cant trademark an action? The '&' symbol may be intergal to the trademark. If that is the case anyone can put Reach AND Wash on anything because you are describing what you do.....
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interedting .
does anyone kno .
a trade mark lawyer
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Ionics may take you to court, but they would alienate themselves against most of us posting on here if they did. We all hate the big guys, trying to swat the little guys trying to make a living. They could well shoot themselves in the foot. Dai
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interedting .
does anyone kno .
a trade mark lawyer
I dont know one but I do know you cannot use a word that is in every day use (different saying but means the same generic I think the word is) ie window or cleaner these cannot be a trade mark Reach & wash can be but reach and wash not so maybe the other way round I dont use it nor would I because if you said that to someone you would get a blank look back unless they had bought a system.
hard one to be honest, ditching the leaflets is the easy option, posting them you would be taking a gamble and the stakes are agaist you.
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Ionics may take you to court, but they would alienate themselves against most of us posting on here if they did. We all hate the big guys, trying to swat the little guys trying to make a living. They could well shoot themselves in the foot. Dai
no offense dai but they are not going to care diddly squat about anyone on here or what they think IMO. People who like to post and rant on here are mostly cobble-together merchants who are never going to be their customers anyway. granted not everyone but most.
(Before some idiot calls me a sexist racist stalinist pacifist loyalist terrorist butterkist sunkist satan worshiping nazi for making a generalization - dont bother.)
If anything an example would be made of "the little guy" to encourage others not to do the same thing. If it was me I'd SQUASH THE LITTLE GUY LIKE A FLY then go MWAH MWAH MWAAAAAH in a 'world domination laughter" stylee.
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all you have said is "leaflets" how much did you spend ??? ??? ??? if its 10k mono flyers bin em if its 10 full colour a4 and they aint been folded then you could salvage em without using stickers or a guillotine depends on the costs really but can be done
they were 140 quid so it would not be too hard a loss,
i think im gonna have to grin and bear it! :'(Why advertise Ionics if you don't get paid for it? I wouldn't advertise any WFP system. The only advertising on my van & website is for my benefit, nobody else gets a mention. I use Ionics WF poles and an Ionics cricket trolley but I wouldn't want to put an Ionics logo on my van because I'm not advertising freebies. If they paid me to advertise their stuff, then I might consider it............
i didnt even know it was the ionics logo , i was told it was the universal wfp logo and it looked quite professional so i thought i would stick it on the leaflet, i wasnt trying to advertise any system brand that would mean diddly squat to anyone anyway.
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Having been studying this thread i thought i would give it some time before replying so now is the time to do so.
I believe ionics may have a point in not wanting anyone using there logo but as for the term “Reach & Wash” can one really have copy right to a short sentence/description?
It is generally known in the business that wfp is also known as reach and wash (a term i use frequently) when i get inquires several times the question pops up “do you use reach and wash”
And my answer is always “yes”
Having said that on my van it states using “water fed poles”
To me it’s almost like the Indian Take-away shop suing the Chinese counterpart for using the words Hong Kong The take-away
The word take away is used for all take away restaurants as is the description Fast food i.e. macdonalds, burger king etc.
I fear that ionics are doing themselves no favours by reacting in the way they do, if anything they will put w/c’s off them by their methods of control.
In an earlier thread i was asking the question ref:
ionics thermo systems, it is something i may think about in the future however having said that if i do go down this route i will not be getting it from ionics most likely somewhere like omnipole (if they do them)
The reason being simple: i have 2 vans, say one has an ionics system in it i can therefore use their logo but the other van would not have an ionics in but i would want both vehicles to be sign written in the same way, now having spent several thousands on their system i would be somewhat p***ed off if i was told that only the van using the system could carry the logo.
Anyway that’s my thoughts on the matter
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as an after thought
it's often said "to be mimicked is the best compliment you could get",
not only that look at all the free advertising they would be getting
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when does a generic term lost its copyright status, any1 know
for example, my wif hoovers the house with a dyson, its not a hoover is it ??, though i s.pose we should say " my wife vacuums the house "
poor example i guess
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the term reach and wash (reach & wash) has been used by ionics for years they are after all the company (OTT) that brought the water fed pole system to our country.
rgds, stuart
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Hi Stuart
TuckerPoles were actually available in the UK many years before OTT sold them.
They were being sold directly through Tuckers European agent who was based in Holland but networked in the UK, the first time I came across them was in mid 1980s.
OTT got the idea and really marketed the complete concept of a window cleaning system and the rest is history.
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hi glyn,
you are correct they did introduce the system i thought i put that :-[
regards, stuart
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You could run them back through your printer and overprint the logo with a black square?
Would save wasting all the leaflets.
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failing that, just get the flyers out as they are ;)
What sort of advice is that?
Ionics have contacted him, he is in breach of their trademark and they will sue him. He will lose and their legal costs will be fortunes.
To do something when you know you cant win is foolish
Mark
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I have noticed the marketing is all about them. I bumped into a competitor who works the same areas as me. He was really nice and showed me his thermo pure.I thought it was brilliant. He gave me a leaflet a brochure and a biz card. On all three his name as operator was very small, and all the stuff was about them.I think the brochure was about their training courses.
It did strike me that he'd paid a lot of money to advertise them and they'd got him believing he was promoting himself. However I did believe him when he told me how he earned £100 ph. This wasn't what sent me hot though, it was when I felt the water (his water) on my hand, i knew what I thought and I knew what customers would think.
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Legal costs would be minimal as he could just plead guilty.
However, he may have to repay Ionic for loss of trade (if any loss can be proved). They could argue that their brand has been devalued by the incorrect use of their trademark for example. Could be expensive?
looked into this via the legal service from the Fed when I was accused of breaching copyright. It was on a catchphrase I was using. Turned out that you cannot trademark a catchphrase ::) Enjoyed phoning the guy back ;D
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failing that, just get the flyers out as they are ;)
What sort of advice is that?
Ionics have contacted him, he is in breach of their trademark and they will sue him. He will lose and their legal costs will be fortunes.
To do something when you know you cant win is foolish
Mark
What can they sue you for??? ???
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failing that, just get the flyers out as they are ;)
What sort of advice is that?
Ionics have contacted him, he is in breach of their trademark and they will sue him. He will lose and their legal costs will be fortunes.
To do something when you know you cant win is foolish
Mark
What can they sue you for??? ???
Breach of trademark, which will incur punative damages, their legal fees will be a small fortune, even if you plead guilty.
They have legal rights which mean that anyone who uses their registered trademark, without their express permission is open to be sued for damages, whatever a court decides those to be.
Think its called a tort, but not sure. You have google go and have a look.
Mark
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Benefits of registered trade mark protection
Registering your trade mark gives you the exclusive right to use your mark for the goods and/or services that it covers in the United Kingdom (UK).
If you have a registered trade mark you can put the ® symbol next to it to warn others against using it. However, using this symbol for a trade mark that is not registered is an offence.
A registered trade mark:
may put people off using your trade mark without your permission
allows you to take legal action against anyone who uses your trade mark without your permission
allows Trading Standards Officers or Police to bring criminal charges against counterfeiters if they use your trade mark
is your property, which means you can sell it, or let other people have a licence that allows them to use it.
So I presume it has a value. if, by your actions you devalue the trademark, then the owner can sue you for their loss.
Mark
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you could always buy an ionics ground floor extender pole i think there only £50 - £60 . problem solved!!
cheaper than getting another 10,000 leaflets done ;)
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you could always buy an ionics ground floor extender pole i think there only £50 - £60 . problem solved!!
cheaper than getting another 10,000 leaflets done ;)
You have to buy a system in order to use there logo etc.