Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Grafters Cleaning Services on February 04, 2008, 06:59:41 pm
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not that i've got one (maybe 1 day)
but to those of you that do have one
can you tell me, does using hot water make that much difference and can you really justify the extra cost?
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I had a main dealer Hot Water system (Brodex) and I wouldn't waste my money again, yes it does make a small dif but not for the ex cost, end of the day cold pure water works the same - however if some one said do you wont a free ionics thermal system! I wouldn't say no ;D
Andy
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I had a main dealer Hot Water system (Brodex) and I wouldn't waste my money again, yes it does make a small dif but not for the ex cost, end of the day cold pure water works the same - however if some one said do you wont a free ionics thermal system! I wouldn't say no ;D
Andy
i think you are probally right there andy
judging by the lack of responses it would suggest that not many of us use them,
i was just wondering wether it being hot would make much difference, ie. imagine washing up the dishes in cold water!
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but what about washing the dishes in cold pure water ? ha ha
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I am really jealous of you guys ??? I am trad at the moment but would love the high tech gear !
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but what about washing the dishes in cold pure water ? ha ha
you may have a point there marc
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I am really jealous of you guys ??? I am trad at the moment but would love the high tech gear !
keep plugging at it jonah
it will come your way sooner or later
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I had a main dealer Hot Water system (Brodex) and I wouldn't waste my money again, yes it does make a small dif but not for the ex cost, end of the day cold pure water works the same - however if some one said do you wont a free ionics thermal system! I wouldn't say no ;D
Andy
i think you are probally right there andy
judging by the lack of responses it would suggest that not many of us use them,
i was just wondering wether it being hot would make much difference, ie. imagine washing up the dishes in cold water!
I was shown a demo from Rubin's (sales bloke) when they had there road show in Bournemouth, and it was a hot day and the glass on the ground floor was hot, now normal cold water on hot glass and the water drys quickly, which isn't good as normal needs to dry natural and needs to sheet, however with the ionics thermal pure system the water dried natural because of the heat exchange was the same, so that's the dif I have found, personal I wouldnt spend 10k for the small amount you gain ;)
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If its ok (might not be for some time yet) could I pop over and see your gutter vac in action! I would be grateful, as I might not get to windex this year
Andy
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Yeah, but if the hot version was only 300 extra you would add it.
You can DIY it for that price. Not that I have........
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If its ok (might not be for some time yet) could I pop over and see your gutter vac in action! I would be grateful, as I might not get to windex this year
Andy
no probs andy, on a sunday perhaps some time?
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A thread ran asking for an hot o2 user to post. It was mostly at the top of the list for about two days with me posting heavily on it because I am interested. Not a single legitamate user posted.Eventually someone who'd had a dem and intended to purchase(cold to start) made a comment, this immediatly prompted put down comments.
You haven't done any better.
If you want a serious debate about this kind of thing perhaps this forum isn't the place anymore.
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Yeah, but if the hot version was only 300 extra you would add it.
You can DIY it for that price
Lol no you couldn't!
Solubility is right, you wont find any helpful answers on here for this, only theories that people have that usually revolve around ridiculous solar panels, impractical gas bottle heaters, and some idea somebody had about making it run through the radiator to heat it up..none of which has ever worked...
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If its ok (might not be for some time yet) could I pop over and see your gutter vac in action! I would be grateful, as I might not get to windex this year
Andy
no probs andy, on a sunday perhaps some time?
That would be great as you dont live to far from me, are catch up with you later in the year ;)
Andy
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Say you did have one Jay. And it was a revelation, pleasant to use because of the flexibility and warmth.Dirt melting off the frames, bird soil gone on the second or third pass, hardly needing to rinse at all. And then there are the customers comments and reactions......the marketing... the money....did I mention the money?
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I think the hot water post got a slating, because most of us could only see the benifits to the user rather than the customer and so thought the extra expense would be wasted as customers were unlikely to pay a premium to cover the extra cost. After all, they just want clean windows at the end of the day. I can see advantages maybe with heavily soiled conservatory roofs where the heat might dissolve green algae quicker. Unfortunately trying to get a point over tends to start a "heated" argument with anyone who has bought a hot system. ;)
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I've got a hot system. Will I post about it? Not anymore, don't need the negative comments, thank-you. I'm happy, I'll leave it at that. If you want to compare hot/cold WFP ask Ionics for a demo.
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Wise words. :) Actually i did view the H20 version when i thought i was going to get a large redundancy wad. Would i have payed the extra? Who knows. I reckon it would be handy if you could press a button for a few seconds of steam to blast at the old bird poo if they could make that, you know a bit like the wifes steam iron, a few seconds of puff and away it goes. :)
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It's a shame that hot wfp users don't post much about the system, but they do have a point. It must be disheartening to take the time to write about a personal experience of it only for people who have never used it to say what's the point and is not neccesary, why bother?
Everyone has an opinion but where experience of using this system should count as the only one, most people would get sidetracked by the naysayers, without knowing who has knowledge and who doesn't.
Fortunately it will change because a couple of years ago it was similar about trad and wfp, then the diy wfp cowboys.
It's very hard sometimes to distinguish the wheat from the chaff on certain topics.
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Also hard to express an opinion in words without it coming over as being balshy. Thats from both sides of any debate. So what starts out as a discussion tends to spiral downwards.
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Also hard to express an opinion in words without it coming over as being balshy. Thats from both sides of any debate. So what starts out as a discussion tends to spiral downwards.
Tell me about it,but it beats emmerdale lol. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Wayne's is the sensible position, and the one that most have taken. It isn't the people who've bought expensive systems that try to justify themselves. They couldn't care less.
I do wish there was a forum though where you could swap ideas. Hot throws so many interesting possiblities up, and for early adopters the skys the limit.
Just read your post mark, very astute. I for instance seem quite disliked because i'm a bit/lot conceited. But I am very proud of my little van and it's system and don't see anything wrong with that.Just wait till I get my motorised reel working! In five years time hot will be increasingly the norm,and economics already dicate exactly which system type will win out.
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Also hard to express an opinion in words without it coming over as being balshy. Thats from both sides of any debate. So what starts out as a discussion tends to spiral downwards.
Yes, but if the poster questions the negative replies and asks if they use one or have done it would give them a better chance of digesting good info.
The trouble with doing that though is for new people to the forum, questioning an experienced poster could lead to personal attacks and peopel don't want to ruffle anyones feather when they are new.
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Wayne's is the sensible position, and the one that most have taken. It isn't the people who've bought expensive systems that try to justify themselves. They couldn't care less.
I do wish there was a forum though where you could swap ideas. Hot throws so many interesting possiblities up, and for early adopters the skys the limit.
Just read your post mark, very astute. I for instance seem quite disliked because i'm a bit/lot conceited. But I am very proud of my little van and it's system and don't see anything wrong with that.Just wait till I get my motorised reel working! In five years time hot will be increasingly the norm,and economics already dicate exactly which system type will win out.
I do agree that in the not to distant future hot will be the norm,when most wc`s have got a system the hot users will be using hot over cold as a selling tool not much different to trad V WFP.
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Just read your post mark, very astute. I for instance seem quite disliked because i'm a bit/lot conceited. But I am very proud of my little van and it's system and don't see anything wrong with that.
;D
I remember when you congratulated ww for an answer that shut me up and did have a split second of resentment towards you. But its easy to take posts the wrong way, depending which way the wind is blowing that minute. Honesty and a lack of aggression has gone a long way to redeem you though.
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I do agree that in the not to distant future hot will be the norm,when most wc`s have got a system the hot users will be using hot over cold as a selling tool not much different to trad V WFP.
There is no way in a million years that would happen!! Hot (luke warmish more like) systems are few and far between and will always be so as there is no real advantage of a normal system whatsoever. Pure water is pure water - that is the cleaning element, slightly warming it up does next to nothing.
You`ve started something now lol. ;D ;D ;D
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Gotta spice it up a bit otherwise it gets boring!! ;D ;)
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Read here :o
http://www.cleaning-matters.co.uk/stories/articles/-/window_cleaning/accessories/hot_water_too_aggressive/
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I've got a hot system. Will I post about it? Not anymore, don't need the negative comments, thank-you. I'm happy, I'll leave it at that. If you want to compare hot/cold WFP ask Ionics for a demo.
wayne, it's people like you who i was hoping to get thier views on it not from people who don't have one but are prepared to slate the systems,
we had this some while back (if you all recall) from trad boys slating wfp boys and visa versa
suffice to say i would like positive or negative comments from people that use the system not from those who have never even seen one (myself included) let alone tried it out.
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I'm not trying to convince anybody that they would be better off using a hot WFP system over a cold WFP system, it's up to the individual if they think paying the extra money for the hot system is worth it. They also have to take into account the running costs, i.e. diesel or gas or whatever.
I wouldn't waste my money using a hot system if I couldn't clean windows quicker which saves time and increases my earnings.
The advantages I have found:
Hot water dries on glass quicker, so when the weather is bad, the water left on the glass dries quicker than cold, so less chance of collecting dust, sand,etc and low TDS rainwater.
Hot water shifts stubborn marks and breezes through initial cleans much simpler with less effort.
Customers can see the de-ionised water drying quickly which results in fewer complaints from awkward moaning customers who are at home whilst the window cleaning is being carried out who dislike WFP method.
Hot water softens the hose, keeping it supple instead of hard which enables the hose to be reeled in much simpler with fewer kinks, especially in the winter.
Hot water on large hot panes of glass in the summer dry better than cold water on large, hot panes of glass.
Able to work early on very cold mornings problem and stress free when cold WFP users are moaning that their hose, etc are all frozen. Last November I was working in minus 5 early in the morning without any hassles. No need to take everything out of the van on very cold nights just to put it all back in the van first thing in the morning.
One other reason I use hot WFP rather than cold is because I suffer from chronic arthritus so I want to make life as easy as possible for myself.
Hot WFP gets slagged by many, that's up to them, it's their decision and I respect that. I've made my choice and I wouldn't go back to cold WFP regardless of what people have to say about it.
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I for one will probably go the hot water route sometime in the future, providing I can find a reasonably affordable retro fit system, I believe Omnipole do one (don't know how affordable it is though!)
At the moment, the only opinions worth taking account of are the few people who have actually got the system and use it, and from the ones I have read they all seem to love it.
I can't get much quicker than I already am, but that isn't the point, it's about having a system that will clean more effectively and more efficiently, one that will deal with 'impacted soilage' and so on.
It's true that many non users of the system have slagged it off, but it's no more than conjecture. As more and more people evolve their systems we will get more sensible debate and advice....hopefully!
Ian
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The argument about capitol investment or outlay is already won. Yes, it's worth it.
omni retro 2.5k, ionic /o2 circa 8.5k. That doesn't matter whichever way because the advantages are so huge.
The real debate is about the running costs. That's where even the hot users start to differ.
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Mr Solubility,.. which model Arazibo heater were you using, and what are you using now?
I have to say the DIY route seems the sensible option to me,.. I do see the advantages, but I don't see that they are big enough to justify the price tag Ionics etc put on it,.. not for me personally at least. Once its installed professionally there should be no worse safety concerns than with a branded system.
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I can`t wait to go hot lol. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Oh I thought you'd never ask, my systems certainly the best hot system. I started with the Arizboa ( the smallest one whatever that is) and it worked fine. I got another because I was told it had to have something called a CE mark. So now I've got two, just as I have two reels and two vari pump boards.
How it works is I do not have a DI on the van, the pure water goes into my van tank at zero tds.The heater is after the pump but before the reel.A simple hoselock connection going in cold and a simple hoselock connection coming out hot. Four wing nuts attach the heater to some shelving type rails that in turn are secured to the van, and I could swap heaters over in under ten minutes. I could also bypass it completley if I wanted to by just taking the feed from the pump straight to the reel.
I've used it everyday for three months with no problems to speak of. The flow rate is high otherwise the main burner won't ignite. My vari has to be at two thirty, but i've found that by using the hose tap I can limit the amount of water, and as a by product of this i also get a very pleasing thrishing noise along with clouds of steam as my brush glides over the glass. When customers are in and see and hear this from the inside they allways make favourable comments. It somehow just sort of looks right.
Thats why I like fan jets and flocked vikans. I use about 500l daily and this costs about one pound to make hot.
I've been looking at these systems for ages, and personally I'm convinced this kind of setup (and the costs involved!) is right for me. I would be thinking of a slightly more complex setup with a thermostatic mixer tap prior to the hose reel just to be doubly sure that my hose doesn't get melted if the burner fails to switch off for some reason!
What kind of gas cylinder do you use, and how is it secured in your vehicle?
Does the back of the heater get hot at all,.. do you need any heatproof/flameproof board enclosing it/ separating the back of the heater from the wall of the van?
Is your new heater vented or not? I'm looking for a suitable flue kit to put out the roof of my van, as I'm often out of sight of the van when working and I don't want to leave the doors open!
Do you have any kind of thermometer in the system? What temp water would you say hits the glass normally?
Fancy posting some pics? (Or email some to me if you don't want to post them here?)
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Mr solubility im interested in your set up would you be able to post some pictures and tell us where you sourced youre heater and what is the cost to set up.
thanks phil
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thanks for that mr solubility does your insurance company know about the gas bottle in your van and if so how does it affect your premium? also does it have to be proffessionally installed or did you install it yourself?
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I'm sure I gave Mr Solubility his name.
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He's deleted some of his posts - why? It all looked well behaved to me. ???
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The argument about capitol investment or outlay is already won. Yes, it's worth it.
omni retro 2.5k, ionic /o2 circa 8.5k. That doesn't matter whichever way because the advantages are so huge.
The real debate is about the running costs. That's where even the hot users start to differ.
Mr. Sol
I do like your posts but i think your a bit miss-guided on this one.
The argument about capitol investment or outlay is not at all won!
If you think it is then you are infact, so much miss-guided your posts can't be taken seriousley! what you think is relevant is actually the wrong way round ;)
Tony
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I'm right you're wrong macmac.
One of the things about coming into window cleaning from something else is you think differently. There are some great people on this site and I won't name them but they suffer from under investment, such as not buying a van.
I was/am in retail and the investment is massive compared to the amount of money I make. Honestly, no really honestly, the amount we have to invest in window cleaning in business terms is pennies- even for an ionics system with a brand new van attached. What's that 30k tops, and you have yourself a fabulous business.
You give me other examples of a good business you can fund for less.
The amounts we are talking about,2.5-8k to be a first wave early adopter of a cutting edge hot system is a no brainer. The argument is done and dusted. The money follows the new technology, progress trends, and change.
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I'm right you're wrong macmac.
One of the things about coming into window cleaning from something else is you think differently. There are some great people on this site and I won't name them but they suffer from under investment, such as not buying a van.
I was/am in retail and the investment is massive compared to the amount of money I make. Honestly, no really honestly, the amount we have to invest in window cleaning in business terms is pennies- even for an ionics system with a brand new van attached. What's that 30k tops, and you have yourself a fabulous business.
You give me other examples of a good business you can fund for less.
The amounts we are talking about,2.5-8k to be a first wave early adopter of a cutting edge hot system is a no brainer. The argument is done and dusted. The money follows the new technology, progress trends, and change.
I agree with that,for the amount of return if you have the work investing in a hot system is really a no brainer,i`m still researching and deciding what van to switch to lol. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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well heres mines abit cusomised since it came from Ionics ie the thermostatic valve
its all very untidy and needs re plumbing but it works and saves me time and effort
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I wanted to ask you edd. I cracked a window, small wooded framed, frosted as it was to a downstairs toilet. Is this type of glass high risk. It wasn't cold, and my water wasn't that hot.
What are your thoughts?
Your systems brilliant by the way, but you already know that.
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Did it have mesh in the glass.
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nope. I just wondered if it might not have been hardened, toughened or just a cheaper type.
What i'm really asking is, does the glass that cracks tend to have anything in common, or is it just luck and random?
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Often it is the frame that warps. Not a problem with UPV because the rubber edges flex. If the windows are puttied in you will be fine. If they are held in with a wooden bead and the joiner has nailed them too tight you could be in trouble.
What we do, if we hear a creaking sound then stop straight away. Switch to cold supply, let the water run a bit and then clean it.
I would then make a note of the job on our worklists.
Other cracking risk is the cold. Single glazing is usually OK because the building will be usually be centrally heated and this will heat the glass. Modern double glazing usually ok (I think this might be because the glass is thicker). Single glazed conservatorys or garage windows, we use warm or cold on these on frosty days.
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If they are held in with a wooden bead and the joiner has nailed them too tight you could be in trouble
I have been thinking again. I think it may be the nails that expand with the heat. I say this because it also has been windows that were badly in need of repainting that cracked on me. I am thinking that the paint would provide some insulation and spread the heat expansion over the whole bead and not just concentrated on one spot.
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Thanks for that. I was a bit wary of asking because i've been so big headed about my hotness that this is a bit humilating.This is the sort of info we should be able to ask about on the forum though.
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I was/am in retail and the investment is massive compared to the amount of money I make. Honestly, no really honestly, the amount we have to invest in window cleaning in business terms is pennies- even for an ionics system with a brand new van attached. What's that 30k tops, and you have yourself a fabulous business.
How will you pay back 30k with no income?
What fabulous business will a 30k ionics van bring that a 5k set up couldn't?
You would have to earn 30k of extra business solely from the hot system, this could only be 30k that you had gained on the sole basis of having a hot system over a cold one, JUST TO BREAK EVEN!
You are at a disadvantage with the competition regarding pricing as you now have a 30k debt.
Just MO
The list goes on
Tony
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well i just use the thermostic valve to adjust the temp 20 ish on really cold days and 40 ish on days like today and 50 ish in summer hope this helps Edd
:o :o :o 8) 8) 8) 8) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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30K does not give you a business at all! What it does give you is an expensive tool then you go and get the work to build a business.
If you already have a thriving business and want to expand or branch out into lucrative commercial work then yes, it's a sound investment perhaps, but not the other way around.
I'm with Macmac on this one.
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I wanted to ask you edd. I cracked a window, small wooded framed, frosted as it was to a downstairs toilet. Is this type of glass high risk. It wasn't cold, and my water wasn't that hot.
What are your thoughts?
Your systems brilliant by the way, but you already know that.
Thermal shock affects older glass more,.. and the thicker the glass the more likely it is to crack. Modern glass is thinner and more uniform, which makes it much more resilient to temp changes.
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V8edd,.. i'm trying to figure out how you're setup works,.... and it looks real good. Is one of the pumps just used to circulate around the heat exchanger???
Do you have "on demand" hot water, or do you have to heat the whole tank?
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I agree with Steve Kennedy, listen out for the creaky/pinging noise the glass makes on unsuitable windows.
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it's never happened to me, and I never thought it would. I didn't know if edd was joking with his I cracked another one today comments.
I didn't get any warning, it just went. Have you done one yet?
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Not yet, touchwood. I've noted which windows to clean cold or luke warm. Basically on very cold days, luke warm water on dodgy windows. Watch out on wooden framed windows, especially if they have wooden strips with nails instead of putty, old, very thin glass and ceiling (fan-over front doors) windows as they are normally very tightly fitted with no room for expansion. On bottom windows you can hear the glass expanding-if you do hear it pinging like mad, stop and use cold water.
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Nathen one side is cold and heated by whats in the tank say by 11 oclock we turn the heater off if its up to temp
the other is heated and regulated by the thermostatic valve , we could have both hot or both cold or one of each
if we are doing a con roof both hot as poss if doing old stuff it might be cold!!hope this helps Edd
All I will say since we got the van set up wether its new or old it just gotto look right , just my repayments are more then some we had to ditch all the work under 12 quid because we could not cope with all the new stuff coming in like con roofs gutters high stuff so we had to make a choice do the estates at 6 qiud each and most of them were not at home or do the big stuff and what we do is get the custy to leave us a cheque in a jam jar hidden somewhere so we get paid !! and it works very well