Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: carpet guy on January 18, 2008, 03:13:56 pm
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Maybe if the industry concentrated on Breaking down, Releasing, Encapsulating the soil in carpets and fabrics, there would be less need for the current obsession with doubling, or trebling the pressure and vacuum power in machines.
How much does it take to clean to an acceptable standard, and please don't come out with the " cleaning all the way to the base of the pile needs high pressure " when surface tension is released and soiling is broken down and encapsulated, all that's needed is rinsing.
The marketing and personal hype put out and maybe believed, by advocates of the " bigger is better " brigade is aimed at impressing potential buyers of products and end users, but what is the reality, on a day to day basis, for 99% of the work being done.
rob
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Fu%k me rob that'll get some tense argument going. Taking kids to a bday party and look forward to the 15 responses this'll have had by 6.30pm when I get back.
Pete
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Surely not.........everyone one here is openminded and polite and well mannered and considerate and happy to discuss all the possibilities.
Or maybe not everyone.
What prompted me to post this, was a comment, referring to cleaning carpets at 1000psi :o :o
rob
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When the customer is 100% delighted?
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T/M impresses custys more tham portys
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When the customer is 100% delighted?
Agree with that statement most customers are not bothered what you use all long as you achieve the desired result
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I guess more power means quicker cleaning if you are at the side of a smaller machine irrelivant of what system ie porti and TM or 13" buffer to 17" buffer.
The big TM's for domestics can be a very good marketing tool and with the money that can be earned the pay back for these machines aren't as bad as you may think providing you don't mind the debt and the running costs and the long hours.
But to keep ALL costs down and to work fast I'd buy a Cimex, I used to clean years ago with one and the running cost is practically £0 and they last for ever but like every system it has it's pitfalls.
Shaun
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Wow
Heard part of a Joe P interview last night Think I heard it before.
So what we should be obsessesed with is WOW FACTOR.
Not sure if that means we have the best toys probably does if we are going for Rolls Royce Clients.
But need to clean van more often for starters.
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Ian I think you know the answers it's selling the sizzle not the steak (my favourite saying ;D)
How many times have you read the adverts in the back of a paper where they sell miracle products and thought "I wouldn't mind one of those" then recieved it and thought to yourself "it's rubbish"
As honest carpet cleaners we are told to undersell our services so the customer doesn't expect too much or that when they see the difference they call it the WOW factor, well do the bragging in the ad and then on the survey do the real bit.
Shaun
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My job today whilst drinking my tea.
Custie comments on my machine being so big and presumably powerful.
Yes I said I like to invest in equipment that gives the best clean possible.
Did the job custie very happy with results.
What do I use? A Speedster. ::)
99% have not got a clue about the machinery or the difference in results.
Truckmounts are for speed, ease and 1% who may know the difference.
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Mike if you pre vac, aggitate with some thing like an Enviridry then you can extract with any medium to top range porty and get the same result as a truckmount.
You could put a £1000 machine next to a £3000 machine and the customer will not know the difference.
Similar to above posts it is service and the wow factor that wins customers not power of machine.
Now speed of job, performance and Technique of the operator, well now thats different ;)
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Excellent responses gents, this is much more measured and moderate than would have happened even a year ago.
I agree the wow factor is supplied by you, not by your equipment, but leaving a pleasant smell, looking clean and tidy, being pleasant, wearing little shoe covers, all add to the wow factor.
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Hi Guys
It's also important that the custy sees us using eqiuipment unavailable to them and that looks professional.
I find customers particularly like gauges as this gives a 'space age' apperance to some and makes them think the machine is better.
One aspect we rarely touch on is the relative apperance of the various makes, some look more powerful even if therye not, others look like wheelie bins.
Cheers
Doug
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You don't by a TM for a better clean, you are professionals with a truck full of tools, you are already cleaning perfectly, a TM is a time saver and a money maker.
Now that said you can leave carpet much drier and extract more with a TM, so that is worth mentioning as well.
And there is a fair difference between a single vac porty and a machine with multiple vacs for the same reason of drier can equal cleaner.
Did someone mention heat was a time saver as well and promoted better drying, that is worht mentioning.
Of course you could just put a properly fitting glide on your porty wand and cut your drying by half and move on.
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Would that be a Green Glide by any chance Jeff ;D ;D
Only kidding I have 2 and they are a god send ;)
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I tend to think the only people obsessed with power are the one who don't have it ::)
when it come to power of the machine then we are talking about 3 things, heat-vacuum-water(flow& pressure)
so its simple;
1)heat clean better & quicker,
2)vacuum remove more water so leave carpets dryer,
3)water rinses better so removes more dirt.
that's why people want bigger more powerful machine so they can increase the efficiency of the above 3 things
of course you can achieve the same results with a low powered machine, but it takes longer and is harder.
Mike
(3 replies have been added while typing)
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Excellent responses gents, this is much more measured and moderate than would have happened even a year ago.
I agree the wow factor is supplied by you, not by your equipment, but leaving a pleasant smell, looking clean and tidy, being pleasant, wearing little shoe covers, all add to the wow factor.
trust me i can get the same results with a extracta bx (single vac) as i can with my t.m. !! it would take a lot longer and i would need to turbo dry every thing but it would still be as good
looking from a womans view
if you turn up with a house vax then your on a loser but anything bigger then thats i a good starter what ever the make ,
the most important thing is to make the lady of the house feel comterble with you ! if you do , your on a winner , women dont like creepy , smelly, prevy blokes and if your any of these they wont care how big your cleaner is you wont be going back so its not all about the power its the total package
one thing you have got to rember is that these suppliers have got to keep selling you stuff your they will go out of buisness it wonted be good for them if everybody keped the same gear for ten years would it ??
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I was one out. It was 16 not 15. Shaun's point is extremely valid (re undersell) as is Pauls re envirodri etc. Did a small job today for a guy who's had his done regularly by a TM b4 and this time he was well impressed. The difference was the envirodri (used dry first prior to vac and then again after pre-treat). "never seen anything like that b4" (the envirodri) "I'll be using you from now on mate" were his words.
Not that its relevant but he had 2 mercs, an M3 BMW and a 355 Spider and guess what.......no tip.
Pete
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I still say a T/M roaring away gives a more professional image with what you say as the WOW factor. Just my opinion, we use portys & t/ms so I can judge this quite well.
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No tip Pete - thats why he has 2 mercs, an M3 BMW and a 355 Spider.
Not had a customer yet that has said "I am disappointed - I was expecting a truck mount"
Had many a customer say how pleased they are with the finished job.
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People
Isn't it just the case that there are so many variables involved that no two situations can be reliably compared ? Operator skill, machine (which could be relatively basic but nevertheless of 'professional' capability), drying conditions, chemicals, spray pressure, vacuum: series/parallel motors x1, x2 , x3 . . . etc . . .
At the end of the day what counts best is doing a commendable job. POWER is what launches rockets, quality is not proportionate in this field.
Regards
Pete (JS2)
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Actualy, power is what turns on a porty, and your buffer, etc,
launching a rocket just takes a little more power,
Now I wonder why that is.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
geoff
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Just how much faster is a tm than a porty, surely its down to the operator ???
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This TM v Porty issue has raged on for to long. I suggest the only way to settle it would be an arranged fight, say next weekend in the carpark of Watford Gap Services, noon.
No need to RSVP just turn up. Bring packed lunches as the service stations a rip-off and strickly no weapons apart from wands.
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Just how much faster is a tm than a porty, surely its down to the operator ???
no mate its not far from it , i need my mother front roon with the t.m. in about an hour and with the porty it takes two hours >:(
i dont think this is a porty v t.m. its more to do with do you realy need a 500 psi porty and three vacs or are the suppiers fueling a toy crush same can be said for t.ms is a top of the range h.m. as good as a low range prochem ???
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Once had a customer who I had done work for and he was expecting a TM (the bloomin thing had just broken down) so I went with a porti and dry fusion, the carpet looked the same as it would with a TM clean but took 2.5 hours not the 1 hour I had planned, the guy said he was disappointed in the cleaning as I didn't bring the TM so I did it for free.
Ok it's the only one from memory I have had but now my customers expect the big machine but also the big price that comes with it.
Shaun
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Fu%k me rob that'll get some tense argument going. Taking kids to a bday party and look forward to the 15 responses this'll have had by 6.30pm when I get back.
Pete
Ha ha Pete ;D,
You're showing your age mate!
Looking forward to a post on carpet cleaning on a Friday night! If only your mates could see you now ;).
The all-nighters have long gone, same here ;D.
All the best,
Jas.
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I like the fist-o-cuffs idea.
It's funny to see the Porty vs: TM debates, it's not the same here in the states, we have Lots of customers with portys, I've pimped out quite a few for more kick, most the guys here are jsut trying to make the best of what they have, and most of them are looking forward to the time they can move into a TM.
If you run a porty and haven't acquired some 2" vac hose and plumbed in a 2" hose barb...do so for starters.
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I've lost count of the number of times I've wheeled my porty in only to get an exclamation from the lady of the house "that's a big one!"
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OK - for the uneducated (ie me) what is a 2" hose barb that Jeoff Lydon talks of.
I dont want to miss out the understanding of this - interesting.
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its the connection on the front of a portable where you fit your vac hose to, it will proberbly be a 1-5inch 'barb' re-drill your mchine and try and it a 2inch 'barb'
Mike
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Thanks Mike - I know the option is there for the Scorpion.
What about the other end?
I understand 2" hose is heavy and is not as flexible.
Does that get reduced to 1.5" and if so do you loose out on the advantage of 2"
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I go 2inch all the way and don't find it too awkward, apart from in bedrooms
some use a 10ft 'whipline' of smaller hose.
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but is their a disadvantage in dropping down size, even for 10'
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Fu%k me rob that'll get some tense argument going. Taking kids to a bday party and look forward to the 15 responses this'll have had by 6.30pm when I get back.
Pete
Ha ha Pete ;D,
You're showing your age mate!
Looking forward to a post on carpet cleaning on a Friday night! If only your mates could see you now ;).
The all-nighters have long gone, same here ;D.
All the best,
Jas.
Your not wrong son.She's going to see the Spice girls (for the 2nd time on Tues) and I'll be watering me tomatoes. Ja fancy you and me organising the CCDO this year as Trevor not doing? Perhaps we can get Prochem to donate an upholstery tool for a bus. card raffle (obviously the condition will be that you buy there biggest porty to go with it.
Pete
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but is their a disadvantage in dropping down size, even for 10'
Joe
Oneday we will find out.
As you frequent Cleantalk pop over and ask John and then let me know the answer, ;D
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Joe of course there is a drop off as size reduces, also you will need to use a 1.5 inch wand .
You get used to 2 inch pipe and although harder to use with a 2 inch wand, the diffrence in drying times is vast.
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In all seriousness, it doesn't take an engineer to realize choking a 4 lane highway down to a 2 lane country road will slow transit and cause a bottle neck. This is true with vacuum, water, air, etc...
Carpet cleaners are smart crafty folks, take a fresh look at your whole system, the answers are staring you in the face.
Now to address the specific question, if you run 2" pipe out to a 1.5" wand there is some restriction, but not as bad as a 10' whip of 1.5" as it's the smaller diameter x the linear feet (ie:10-14') that causes frictional loss on the airstream. When in doubt go BIGGER you won't look back.
ps: who said 2" hose is heavy? less flexible maybe, but it's not really heavy, and you should know not ALL 2" hose is made the same, we spent 2 years getting the formula just right....If you ask HydraMaster nicely they just might bring some over.
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Talking of Hydramaster, I read an article recenty attributed to them, about cfm in relation to inline or parallel vacs.
Suggested that the parallel people have got it right
rob
Smart , Crafty Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Would that be they also sell portables I presume but do not know in parrell
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I know Alltec's are parallel and so I believe are Cross American, Ninja is inline, not sure about the others
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So Prochem
Must admit Ashbys sold me on Serial but Alltec convinced me om parrell
Personally I do not think there is much diffrence
I go by how much water you puy in and how much you take out.
On Cleantalk the other day I think John Bolton said the extra motor only made a little diffrence it was the two inch pipe that made a diffrence to how dry the carpet is.
Is it woth spending $00 to convert a machine to a two inch pipe
Just thouht is the Rotavac designed for two inch hoses
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To be perfectly honest, I don't think you "feel" all that much difference either on 50' of 1.5" hose, but when you open up the bottle neck, all of a sudden the unit with 200 cfm is a step above the unit with 100 cfm, so the 2" "barb" and 2" hose becomes more than just a little detail.
I did an experiment on my sons auto detail single vac extractor, as goofy as it sounds it made an improvement, not worth noting on 15' of hose, but with the 2" connection he could run 65' of hose and still had really good vacuum. Prior to this for comparison we set up 50' of 1.5" hose and it was a significant difference.
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Jeff,
What would you recommend i do to a Prochem Cub XL to get the best from it?
Richie.
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Richie, I can give you a quick list, but do yourself a favor and do a little reading on the TruckMounters Forum, there is several hours of machine and tool enhancements and it's tailored to guys running TM units.
First off, make sure the unit is running max. revs for the engine according to engine Mfg.
Set your vacuum relief spring to the blower Mfgs. Maximum setting (ie 15"hg) this is just tightening the spring off the blower inlet
If your blower has a 2.5" port (intake and exhaust) make sure you preserve that diameter of pipe as far as possible down the line, only reduce to 2" when near the wand (last 25-50') and use a 2" wand if you have the budget for it, Prochem makes good wands.
You will likely need to change out the waste tank fitting to support some 2.5" hose, and source some flexible 2.5" hose (HydraMaster stocks it). (pic below)
After optimizing the vacuum system, then you can focus on your solution, what is the total flow of your wand jets?
All things being equal and assuming you've got a properly fitted glide already, you will have net drier carpets if you flow more solution, so you are likely in for a wand jet size increase.
Bump up your flow at least to the next level. ie: if you have a 2 jet wand and the numbers read 9502 on each, you want 9503 on your new jets, and possibly 9504 if your heat will keep up (which it may not). We'll deal with heat later, let's get your flow dialed in first, water cleans so lets use some.
Even if your Temp. gauge shows a 40ºf drop with the higher flow, you will have hotter solution At the carpet, there is more energy being communicated in the process of the high flow rinsing. You will only go from maybe 3 liters per min, to about 4 liters, but it will clean better and you will have less need to make a 3rd cleaning pass or a 4th for that matter, this will also result in a labor savings.
Next is either getting a better wand, or a Post heater, cause if you have real high heat you will also clean faster assuming the volume is there (flow) and real heat will dry faster and make greasy jobs childs play, so more on heat later....start with the low cost upgrades first.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r120/CaliforniaGreenie/25dblel_0002.jpg)
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Curious about the bigger jets, has anyone tried this, what difference did you notice? faster cleaning ? better cleaning?
At 375psi i reckon it goes down pretty fast now! (02 jets)