Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: cvdewsbury on January 18, 2008, 11:46:21 am
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taking up on past comments made on the board re valuation of rounds don't you think its about time we got together and reassess the valuation of our rounds making ourselves a few extra quid when we eventually sell thus reflecting the hard work put into building the round up.
For example someone with no experience at all can walk into window cleaning and in some cases buy a small round of say £250.00 per week for as little as £2,000.00 which to me is seriously low.....I'll start the revaluation programme and suggest a compact well paying round should have a valuation of between X8 to 10 of the monthly clean IE £2,ooo per month should be valued at between 16 to 20 grand.
This seems to me to be a fair price to ask someone who then is able to earn a wage of £500 PW which in some cases they won't have to work all week for .....Anyone agree with me
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Majority of firms when converting to a limited company are considered to be worth about 3x their annual profit.
Thereby a round that has regularly brought in £25,000 p.a. would value the firm at £75,000 for tax purposes.
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In my area rounds only go for 2 or 3 times what they are worth.
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Majority of firms when converting to a limited company are considered to be worth about 3x their annual profit.
Thereby a round that has regularly brought in £25,000 p.a. would value the firm at £75,000 for tax purposes.
General Companies are measured on PROFIT not turnover but window cleaning rounds are on book value.
When I went Ltd in 2003 I sold my round to D.Salkeld Ltd for 3 x the book value. Fantastic tax saving in the first year Ltd ;)
David
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taking up on past comments made on the board re valuation of rounds don't you think its about time we got together and reassess the valuation of our rounds making ourselves a few extra quid when we eventually sell thus reflecting the hard work put into building the round up.
For example someone with no experience at all can walk into window cleaning and in some cases buy a small round of say £250.00 per week for as little as £2,000.00 which to me is seriously low.....I'll start the revaluation programme and suggest a compact well paying round should have a valuation of between X8 to 10 of the monthly clean IE £2,ooo per month should be valued at between 16 to 20 grand.
This seems to me to be a fair price to ask someone who then is able to earn a wage of £500 PW which in some cases they won't have to work all week for .....Anyone agree with me
When you buy a window cleaning round you're not buying plant, machinery, premises etc....all you're buying is "good will". And as there's no guarantee the customers will stay with you (and reading past threads it's hit and miss) I think 3 times is more than enough.
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taking up on past comments made on the board re valuation of rounds don't you think its about time we got together and reassess the valuation of our rounds making ourselves a few extra quid when we eventually sell thus reflecting the hard work put into building the round up.
For example someone with no experience at all can walk into window cleaning and in some cases buy a small round of say £250.00 per week for as little as £2,000.00 which to me is seriously low.....I'll start the revaluation programme and suggest a compact well paying round should have a valuation of between X8 to 10 of the monthly clean IE £2,ooo per month should be valued at between 16 to 20 grand.
This seems to me to be a fair price to ask someone who then is able to earn a wage of £500 PW which in some cases they won't have to work all week for .....Anyone agree with me
When you buy a window cleaning round you're not buying plant, machinery, premises etc....all you're buying is "good will". And as there's no guarantee the customers will stay with you (and reading past threads it's hit and miss) I think 3 times is more than enough.
I take your point Simon. That's probably where we start when BUYING a round. However, what about when SELLING a round. I'm sure you wouldn't want the business that you have been nurturing to be onsale for so little.
I actually believe that my rounds value is good for the work it DOESN'T contain because I trimmed most of that away years ago. I have no troublesome customers, only 3 who need prior arrangement to be made, and, apart from a few elderly people's bungalows where I couldn't be bothered to explain WFP, it's all done by WFP and the customers appear OK with it. Very little ladder access is needed though a step ladder and claw hammer are useful on some bits (bolts half way down some of which need a tap with a hammer).
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that's a good point Simon for anyone thinking of selling a wc round.
There are no guarantees that the whole round you sell./purchase will be there still in 3 months time or whatever!
I do think though that if you are selling a round a % of the value should be applied to the price for the "behind" the scenes work involved. EG if the round was worth £500 sell for 3 times = £1500 and say 15% on top(£225) ??? Just plucked those figures out of mid air ;D The purchaser would soon recoup the 15%. Personally there would be no way I would pay more than 3 times worth without some sort of guarantee :)
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taking up on past comments made on the board re valuation of rounds don't you think its about time we got together and reassess the valuation of our rounds making ourselves a few extra quid when we eventually sell thus reflecting the hard work put into building the round up.
For example someone with no experience at all can walk into window cleaning and in some cases buy a small round of say £250.00 per week for as little as £2,000.00 which to me is seriously low.....I'll start the revaluation programme and suggest a compact well paying round should have a valuation of between X8 to 10 of the monthly clean IE £2,ooo per month should be valued at between 16 to 20 grand.
This seems to me to be a fair price to ask someone who then is able to earn a wage of £500 PW which in some cases they won't have to work all week for .....Anyone agree with me
When you buy a window cleaning round you're not buying plant, machinery, premises etc....all you're buying is "good will". And as there's no guarantee the customers will stay with you (and reading past threads it's hit and miss) I think 3 times is more than enough.
I take your point Simon. That's probably where we start when BUYING a round. However, what about when SELLING a round. I'm sure you wouldn't want the business that you have been nurturing to be onsale for so little.
I actually believe that my rounds value is good for the work it DOESN'T contain because I trimmed most of that away years ago. I have no troublesome customers, only 3 who need prior arrangement to be made, and, apart from a few elderly people's bungalows where I couldn't be bothered to explain WFP, it's all done by WFP and the customers appear OK with it. Very little ladder access is needed though a step ladder and claw hammer are useful on some bits (bolts half way down some of which need a tap with a hammer).
This is a round you've spent years to polish and your customers all love you and wouldn't dream of ever having any other shiner but you Shiner ;D...and you earn £XXX a week from it. And I'll bet your eventual buyer won't match your turnover/profit....because they won't have the good will you've established over the years.
Most big PLCs when they put themselves up for sale value their good will as zero!
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SHINER nice to hear someone with us....if you got out of window cleaning would someone set you on with a wage of £500 pw? I couldn,t get that no chance ..so theres my point for a relatively small outlay of 4 to 6 k someone can achieve this figure.
As for other posters on buying a round and losing customers ive never had this problem infact within 3 or 4 cleans the round is always up on what I purchased ....I think if you complete the work to the highest standard ,polite to the customer,don,t increse the price too much on takeover you can not lose......by the way i,m trad with domestic customers
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My own round is now over 25 years old, and it is currently a bloody good round with a terrific balance of very well paying (and I mean VERY well paying) commercial work and some superb residential accounts.
Even on a bad week, or series of weeks, the income it generates is very good indeed.
There is no way on earth I would sell this round for just three times it's monthly value!
If I sold my round for...say, £10,000, the buyer would be in profit inside 12 months.
The odds are they will be coming into window cleaning from a totally different sector, maybe buying the work with a redundancy payout, quite possibly their previous income would barely equal half the turnover that can be generated from the round.
So for nine or ten months they could be working at roughly the same income level they were as before.
And after such a tiny period of time they have paid for the round and are in profit...
How many other businesses could you buy for such a low price, and within a few months have an income considerably in excess of 30k? And with relatively low running costs too..
But I also value my customers, no way would I sell it to some berk who would ruin it inside of 6 months.
So I would also take them on for a month or more to train them and educate them in the round, and also to slowly introduce them to all my customers.
Every round, every account, they all have certain ways of cleaning them that are most efficient, for my buyer to benefit he would need to know exactly what he was doing, so vital he accompanies me for a few weeks, and that I'm also on hand to offer help whilst he gains his feet.
I'm not offering this level of help and support for a piddling three times it's monthly turnover!
And no way would I let it go for a paltry 10k either by the way!
Your round is worth whatever you can get someone to pay for it.
Some rounds I wouldn't give a tenner for, but a round such as Roy harding has...well, that one is worth it's weight in gold!
Ian
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But I also value my customers, no way would I sell it to some berk who would ruin it inside of 6 months.
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Ian
Darn! I was about to make you an offer Ian! ;D
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it annoys me that people say YOUR ONLY BUYING THE CUSTOM??? is that not the same if you bought a cafe or a shop or a printers ect ect but they demand more for there businesses!
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So gentlemen those who are agreeing with me so far are we going to proceed with the raising the bar to say x8 or x10 on quality domestic round.....think of it as its worth to you and also a nice lump sum to add on to your retirement fund......by the way still pi**ing it down here in w.yorks
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My own round is now over 25 years old, and it is currently a bloody good round with a terrific balance of very well paying (and I mean VERY well paying) commercial work and some superb residential accounts.
Even on a bad week, or series of weeks, the income it generates is very good indeed.
There is no way on earth I would sell this round for just three times it's monthly value!
If I sold my round for...say, £10,000, the buyer would be in profit inside 12 months.
The odds are they will be coming into window cleaning from a totally different sector, maybe buying the work with a redundancy payout, quite possibly their previous income would barely equal half the turnover that can be generated from the round.
So for nine or ten months they could be working at roughly the same income level they were as before.
And after such a tiny period of time they have paid for the round and are in profit...
How many other businesses could you buy for such a low price, and within a few months have an income considerably in excess of 30k? And with relatively low running costs too..
But I also value my customers, no way would I sell it to some berk who would ruin it inside of 6 months.
So I would also take them on for a month or more to train them and educate them in the round, and also to slowly introduce them to all my customers.
Every round, every account, they all have certain ways of cleaning them that are most efficient, for my buyer to benefit he would need to know exactly what he was doing, so vital he accompanies me for a few weeks, and that I'm also on hand to offer help whilst he gains his feet.
I'm not offering this level of help and support for a piddling three times it's monthly turnover!
And no way would I let it go for a paltry 10k either by the way!
Your round is worth whatever you can get someone to pay for it.
Some rounds I wouldn't give a tenner for, but a round such as Roy harding has...well, that one is worth it's weight in gold!
Ian
Yes ok for a round that's been established for 25 years with good, well paying accounts and somebody to hold my hand/make the introductions for the 1st month or so...then yes 3 times is ridiculous!
But for the vast majority of lesser rounds I still reckon 3 times is about right...because:
1) Books do get cooked
2) I reckon the buyer will lose 1/3 to 1/2 of the customers (because: " he's not my old window cleaner Ian")
3) It's almost as easy to build a round from scratch than buy a round and learn about the various customers funny little ways etc.
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simon i dont agree 1/3 or even 1/2???
yes you may lose the odd one but if you do a good job introduce your self come a cross has proffesional and reliable you will be fine and you will find you will pick more up to compensate for the ones you lost cause they idnt like the previous cleaner.
its easy to do you own round?? really well it takes time motivation more time knock backs struggling with no work stress cause you have no money ect ect ect
but i do agree that if you was buying a business van ststem paperwork the full lot it would be worth more.
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My own round is now over 25 years old, and it is currently a bloody good round with a terrific balance of very well paying (and I mean VERY well paying) commercial work and some superb residential accounts.
Even on a bad week, or series of weeks, the income it generates is very good indeed.
There is no way on earth I would sell this round for just three times it's monthly value!
If I sold my round for...say, £10,000, the buyer would be in profit inside 12 months.
The odds are they will be coming into window cleaning from a totally different sector, maybe buying the work with a redundancy payout, quite possibly their previous income would barely equal half the turnover that can be generated from the round.
So for nine or ten months they could be working at roughly the same income level they were as before.
And after such a tiny period of time they have paid for the round and are in profit...
How many other businesses could you buy for such a low price, and within a few months have an income considerably in excess of 30k? And with relatively low running costs too..
But I also value my customers, no way would I sell it to some berk who would ruin it inside of 6 months.
So I would also take them on for a month or more to train them and educate them in the round, and also to slowly introduce them to all my customers.
Every round, every account, they all have certain ways of cleaning them that are most efficient, for my buyer to benefit he would need to know exactly what he was doing, so vital he accompanies me for a few weeks, and that I'm also on hand to offer help whilst he gains his feet.
I'm not offering this level of help and support for a piddling three times it's monthly turnover!
And no way would I let it go for a paltry 10k either by the way!
Your round is worth whatever you can get someone to pay for it.
Some rounds I wouldn't give a tenner for, but a round such as Roy harding has...well, that one is worth it's weight in gold!
Ian
Yes ok for a round that's been established for 25 years with good, well paying accounts and somebody to hold my hand/make the introductions for the 1st month or so...then yes 3 times is ridiculous!
But for the vast majority of lesser rounds I still reckon 3 times is about right...because:
1) Books do get cooked
2) I reckon the buyer will lose 1/3 to 1/2 of the customers (because: " he's not my old window cleaner Ian")
3) It's almost as easy to build a round from scratch than buy a round and learn about the various customers funny little ways etc.
2. You will only lose work if you can,t clean the windows to the other cleaners standards, or you overprice the work,or don,t come across right
3.Buiding a round from scratch...there would be the question of how compact it would be ...unless you managed to canvass a new estate........
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I wouldn't sell my business but If I did, then I would wont 40k + (van, equipment, staff & work)
Over heads are low and profits are high
Don't under value your business
Andy
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I've never bought a round so my guess of losing 1/3 to 1/2 is based on what would happen if i sold my round. Most of my customers are funny cups of tea and if they had their way would have them done once every pancake day. But because I've been doing them for so long I can jolly them into being ish regular and can make a (good) living. Any poor sod buying my round would struggle big time....3X's for my round?...blimey I'd be lucky to give it away >:(
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IL HAVE IT THANK YOU
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IL HAVE IT THANK YOU
W.Yorks might be a bit too far to travel....but when I'm ready to retire I'll give you 1st option Pootwo ;D
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I value my business based on a yearly turnover and profit level rather than a weekly or monthly one. At least 1 years turnover plus equipment and vehicles.
The sooner window cleaners bigin to consider their businesses as a 52 week period the sooner we will see values go up. I have never seen any other business sold based on a monthly turnover. Imo round builders and canvassers have lowered the expectations of window cleaners.
The value of a round owned and operated by a genuine window cleaner for a number of years is in no way comparable to a round canvassed for selling.
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I wouldn't sell my business but If I did, then I would wont 40k + (van, equipment, staff & work)
Over heads are low and profits are high
Don't under value your business
Andy
IF !!! you ever do decide to sell, good luck getting your 40K. ::) ::)
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I value my business based on a yearly turnover and profit level rather than a weekly or monthly one. At least 1 years turnover plus equipment and vehicles.
The sooner window cleaners bigin to consider their businesses as a 52 week period the sooner we will see values go up. I have never seen any other business sold based on a monthly turnover. Imo round builders and canvassers have lowered the expectations of window cleaners.
The value of a round owned and operated by a genuine window cleaner for a number of years is in no way comparable to a round canvassed for selling.
I agree,... BUT as long as there are round developer companies out there doing it for 2x,.. is any cleaner seriously going to spend 8x or even 10x for this added "quality"?????
I value the benefits of an established round and loyal customers,.... but if I was buying work tomorrow, and virgin custies were a quarter of the price, I know what I'd choose! I'd expect to loose a few, but the vast majority would eventually join the ranks of my "quality" custies,.. and it'd be worth the time and effort of getting them there.
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I take your point Nathanael but you are looking at it from a buyers perspective I think( it would be hard to pay 8x 10x if you were buying), would your opinion be the same if you were thinking of selling?
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I value my business based on a yearly turnover and profit level rather than a weekly or monthly one. At least 1 years turnover plus equipment and vehicles.
The sooner window cleaners bigin to consider their businesses as a 52 week period the sooner we will see values go up. I have never seen any other business sold based on a monthly turnover. Imo round builders and canvassers have lowered the expectations of window cleaners.
The value of a round owned and operated by a genuine window cleaner for a number of years is in no way comparable to a round canvassed for selling.
I agree with this. But Ronnie Paton made the comparison to shops, printers and cafes. With these the customer is buying the service, whereas with w/c it's 50% the service and 50% the person delivering the service IMO.
If you've an established round that's been built up over a number of years you'll have a raport with your customers that the buyer just isn't going to have. And for any shakey customers this will be their chance to move the goalposts...eg: bi-monthly not 6 weekly.
I seriously believe that the buyer will earn substantially less per month than the seller did.
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I wouldn't sell my business but If I did, then I would wont 40k + (van, equipment, staff & work)
Over heads are low and profits are high
Don't under value your business
Andy
IF !!! you ever do decide to sell, good luck getting your 40K. ::) ::)
If you offered me 40k for my round I would not think twice, you would have to double it. Then we would talk.
But around is only worth what someone will pay.
40k may seem a lot of monney but you have not seen the accounts, you might buy the round for 40k and still make 40k proffit in the first year.
Roy
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I wouldn't sell my business but If I did, then I would wont 40k + (van, equipment, staff & work)
Over heads are low and profits are high
Don't under value your business
Andy
IF !!! you ever do decide to sell, good luck getting your 40K. ::) ::)
If you offered me 40k for my round I would not think twice, you would have to double it. Then we would talk.
But around is only worth what someone will pay.
40k may seem a lot of monney but you have not seen the accounts, you might buy the round for 40k and still make 40k proffit in the first year.
Roy
Yes but i don't think Richard Branson is ready to go into window cleaning just yet.
Have you ever thought of going public and selling shares in your empire?
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I wouldn't sell my business but If I did, then I would wont 40k + (van, equipment, staff & work)
Over heads are low and profits are high
Don't under value your business
Andy
IF !!! you ever do decide to sell, good luck getting your 40K. ::) ::)
If you offered me 40k for my round I would not think twice, you would have to double it. Then we would talk.
But around is only worth what someone will pay.
40k may seem a lot of monney but you have not seen the accounts, you might buy the round for 40k and still make 40k proffit in the first year.
Roy
Yes but i don't think Richard Branson is ready to go into window cleaning just yet.
Have you ever thought of going public and selling shares in your empire?
Who said I had an empire?
And I think some are undrevaluing there bussines, say you had bought a round for 40k and still made a profit of 40k in first year. And then second year made 80k without expanding the round. You dont have to be Richard Branson to see a good investment. ::)
Roy
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I wouldn't sell my business but If I did, then I would wont 40k + (van, equipment, staff & work)
Over heads are low and profits are high
Don't under value your business
Andy
IF !!! you ever do decide to sell, good luck getting your 40K. ::) ::)
If you offered me 40k for my round I would not think twice, you would have to double it. Then we would talk.
But around is only worth what someone will pay.
40k may seem a lot of monney but you have not seen the accounts, you might buy the round for 40k and still make 40k proffit in the first year.
Roy
Yes but i don't think Richard Branson is ready to go into window cleaning just yet.
Have you ever thought of going public and selling shares in your empire?
Who said I had an empire?
And I think some are undrevaluing there bussines, say you had bought a round for 40k and still made a profit of 40k in first year. And then second year made 80k without expanding the round. You dont have to be Richard Branson to see a good investment. ::)
Roy
If ifs and ands
Were pots and pans
What would Tinkers do?
Anybody who has £80k to spend buying a round has ample money to last him while he builds up his own.
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I bow to your superior knowlage, as Trevor night once said "you learn something new every day.
Roy
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I bow to your superior knowlage, as Trevor night once said "you learn something new every day.
Roy
Not superior knowledge Mr Harding...just somebody who ain't got £800 let alone £80,000 and the way this poxy weather is going £80 might be hard to put my hands on soon....Woe is me >:(
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I wouldn't sell my business but If I did, then I would wont 40k + (van, equipment, staff & work)
Over heads are low and profits are high
Don't under value your business
Andy
IF !!! you ever do decide to sell, good luck getting your 40K. ::) ::)
Thank you ::) allways one ::)
Andy
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If i sold my round for 20k i`d be giving it away,all this about rounds being worth 2-3 times it`s monthly take is rubbish.If you worked a good round and i mean good for a couple of months with the current owner anyone with any business sense would see that paying this pittance of say 10-20k for an established business is ridiculous,if you`ve been in this job for some time then you know what it can earn you.
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when it comes to selling things its not how much the seller values it that counts but rather how much the buyer values it. Most people have no idea what profit a window cleaning round can generate and most people see window cleaning as a lowly job.
Also you have to ask yourself if someone had 40k to spend would they be the type of person attracted to window cleaning because i dont think many people view it as a business.
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I have always believed that good rounds are under valued, think of this way.
A bright kid gets good A level grades and goes off to UNI. Three years later, and 20 grand in debt he goes and looks for a job. If he's lucky, he finds a job that pays 25k to start, and then pays back his student loans.
Another bright lad pays 10k for a round, he already earns 75k whilst the other one is still in UNI, considerably more if he's a good business man and progressively improves his round.
I know what I would rather do. Dai
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My own round is now over 25 years old, and it is currently a bloody good round with a terrific balance of very well paying (and I mean VERY well paying) commercial work and some superb residential accounts.
Even on a bad week, or series of weeks, the income it generates is very good indeed.
There is no way on earth I would sell this round for just three times it's monthly value!
If I sold my round for...say, £10,000, the buyer would be in profit inside 12 months.
The odds are they will be coming into window cleaning from a totally different sector, maybe buying the work with a redundancy payout, quite possibly their previous income would barely equal half the turnover that can be generated from the round.
So for nine or ten months they could be working at roughly the same income level they were as before.
And after such a tiny period of time they have paid for the round and are in profit...
How many other businesses could you buy for such a low price, and within a few months have an income considerably in excess of 30k? And with relatively low running costs too..
But I also value my customers, no way would I sell it to some berk who would ruin it inside of 6 months.
So I would also take them on for a month or more to train them and educate them in the round, and also to slowly introduce them to all my customers.
Every round, every account, they all have certain ways of cleaning them that are most efficient, for my buyer to benefit he would need to know exactly what he was doing, so vital he accompanies me for a few weeks, and that I'm also on hand to offer help whilst he gains his feet.
I'm not offering this level of help and support for a piddling three times it's monthly turnover!
And no way would I let it go for a paltry 10k either by the way!
Your round is worth whatever you can get someone to pay for it.
Some rounds I wouldn't give a tenner for, but a round such as Roy harding has...well, that one is worth it's weight in gold!
Ian
Yes ok for a round that's been established for 25 years with good, well paying accounts and somebody to hold my hand/make the introductions for the 1st month or so...then yes 3 times is ridiculous!
But for the vast majority of lesser rounds I still reckon 3 times is about right...because:
1) Books do get cooked
2) I reckon the buyer will lose 1/3 to 1/2 of the customers (because: " he's not my old window cleaner Ian")
3) It's almost as easy to build a round from scratch than buy a round and learn about the various customers funny little ways etc.
Sure thing Simon. When I posted my earlier post, I wasn't just referring to a print out of the jobs and prices and letting someone get on with it. Like Ian says, I just wouldn't allow that to happen. Once someone got to know their way around my current round, they could have a decent income and have a fair bit of time off too if they wanted. And like I said, it's an almost hassle free round. I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's in the same league as Ian's or Roy's rounds, but with a couple or three more years of nurturing, it could be heading that way. Quite a few of the customers have been with me 5+ years and some of them have been with me since my first couple of years (I started in 1991). For my selling fee (not that I want to sell it) I would include an intro to all the customers who were in and a signed letter to all those who weren't.
Of course, as you say, a buyer wouldn't earn what I earn straight away as it takes a while to learn your way around work that is new to you - especially if not familiar with the areas. It doesn't seem much now, but there is a lot of time saving in knowing the best places to park, the layout of a house before you get there etc etc. But three or four times around should be enough to get the hang of that.
Of course a round is really only worth what someone is prepared to pay. However a round that has been nurtured for years is far more precious than someone doing a few weeks canvassing, taking work with locked gates etc., cleaning them once or twice, then putting the worklist up for sale. I would sell my round on "hassle free" rather than "sky high prices" but there are some very well priced blocks of work within it if someone is prepared to put in some effort.
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So gentlemen those who are agreeing with me so far are we going to proceed with the raising the bar to say x8 or x10 on quality domestic round.....think of it as its worth to you and also a nice lump sum to add on to your retirement fund......by the way still pi**ing it down here in w.yorks
The problem with raising the bar is that a buyer might not discover if he's buying a lovingly tended long term round or a worklist quickly thrown together until after it's been bought.
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I value my business based on a yearly turnover and profit level rather than a weekly or monthly one. At least 1 years turnover plus equipment and vehicles.
The sooner window cleaners bigin to consider their businesses as a 52 week period the sooner we will see values go up. I have never seen any other business sold based on a monthly turnover. Imo round builders and canvassers have lowered the expectations of window cleaners.
The value of a round owned and operated by a genuine window cleaner for a number of years is in no way comparable to a round canvassed for selling.
thats very true
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I wouldn't sell my business but If I did, then I would wont 40k + (van, equipment, staff & work)
Over heads are low and profits are high
Don't under value your business
Andy
IF !!! you ever do decide to sell, good luck getting your 40K. ::) ::)
If you offered me 40k for my round I would not think twice, you would have to double it. Then we would talk.
But around is only worth what someone will pay.
40k may seem a lot of monney but you have not seen the accounts, you might buy the round for 40k and still make 40k proffit in the first year.
Roy
Yes but i don't think Richard Branson is ready to go into window cleaning just yet.
Have you ever thought of going public and selling shares in your empire?
Who said I had an empire?
And I think some are undrevaluing there bussines, say you had bought a round for 40k and still made a profit of 40k in first year. And then second year made 80k without expanding the round. You dont have to be Richard Branson to see a good investment. ::)
Roy
I applaud your achievement Emperor Roy "Nero" Harding ;D
Just don't take up playing the fiddle.
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taking up on past comments made on the board re valuation of rounds don't you think its about time we got together and reassess the valuation of our rounds making ourselves a few extra quid when we eventually sell thus reflecting the hard work put into building the round up.
For example someone with no experience at all can walk into window cleaning and in some cases buy a small round of say £250.00 per week for as little as £2,000.00 which to me is seriously low.....I'll start the revaluation programme and suggest a compact well paying round should have a valuation of between X8 to 10 of the monthly clean IE £2,ooo per month should be valued at between 16 to 20 grand.
This seems to me to be a fair price to ask someone who then is able to earn a wage of £500 PW which in some cases they won't have to work all week for .....Anyone agree with me
I agree with you and you can buy all of my rounds if you want ;D
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I have always believed that good rounds are under valued, think of this way.
A bright kid gets good A level grades and goes off to UNI. Three years later, and 20 grand in debt he goes and looks for a job. If he's lucky, he finds a job that pays 25k to start, and then pays back his student loans.
Another bright lad pays 10k for a round, he already earns 75k whilst the other one is still in UNI, considerably more if he's a good business man and progressively improves his round.
I know what I would rather do. Dai
buy a round for 10k and develop it so you have a 75k profit within 3-4 years(average length of time at uni) i would say that is very unlikely and if someone is talented enough to accomplish such a feat i think they would be using there talents in more lucrative areas of business.
yes window cleaning is a very good income for a "unskilled" job and even beats quite a few "skilled" jobs and some people will do extremely well out of it but the vast majority will do ok.(by ok i mean beat the national average salary) but be under no illusions if you listen to what people on here say many of them earn fortunes and should be well into the 40% tax bracket and be vat registed but when you ask about peoples experience of paying 40% tax there is a deafening silence.
also you have to ask yourself do your potential buyers for window cleaning rounds have large quantities of money or access to finance to pay the amounts that would be asked for rounds mentioned in this post. i think some are in fantasy land.
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I take your point Nathanael but you are looking at it from a buyers perspective I think( it would be hard to pay 8x 10x if you were buying), would your opinion be the same if you were thinking of selling?
Just because I think the fluffy dice in my van add €10k to its value, doesn't mean its possible to sell it for that extra €10k,.... the market dictates,... there isn't really a choice if you actually want a successful sale.
If you have commercial work with written contracts covering a future timespan of 2 years or more, these future years of contracted work could boost the value of your round,.. but failing that, you're going to find it hard to find a buyer at 10x the work value.
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Anyone want mine?
£30 or nearest offer. ::)
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Anyone want mine?
£30 or nearest offer. ::)
After reading what you've said about many of the custies on your round, I wouldn't take it off you if you paid me :)
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Its all very well saying a round is worth 2X, 3X, or even 10X. The problem lies in finding someone with that sort of money who is prepared to hand it over to you in exchange for no more than a list of names and addresses.
Rounds changed hands in the past for what was really a token payment rather than a true reflection of the value.
I can still remember the dodgy rounds being offered in Loot about 15 years ago and a lot of gullable people got ripped off by scammers. My opinion has been permanently tainted by those sharks.
My round is worth a lot to me but I very much doubt that anyone else would pay me what I think its worth. I have known of a couple of old timers who tried to sell their rounds and couldn't find a buyer even though they were only asking shirt buttons. The other window cleaners just waited till he packed up then canvassed his roads themselves for free.
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I take your point Nathanael but you are looking at it from a buyers perspective I think( it would be hard to pay 8x 10x if you were buying), would your opinion be the same if you were thinking of selling?
Just because I think the fluffy dice in my van add €10k to its value, doesn't mean its possible to sell it for that extra €10k,.... the market dictates,... there isn't really a choice if you actually want a successful sale.
If you have commercial work with written contracts covering a future timespan of 2 years or more, these future years of contracted work could boost the value of your round,.. but failing that, you're going to find it hard to find a buyer at 10x the work value.
Fluffy dice....you should have said...I'll give you 20 x ;D ;D
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Its all very well saying a round is worth 2X, 3X, or even 10X. The problem lies in finding someone with that sort of money who is prepared to hand it over to you in exchange for no more than a list of names and addresses.
Rounds changed hands in the past for what was really a token payment rather than a true reflection of the value.
I can still remember the dodgy rounds being offered in Loot about 15 years ago and a lot of gullable people got ripped off by scammers. My opinion has been permanently tainted by those sharks.
My round is worth a lot to me but I very much doubt that anyone else would pay me what I think its worth. I have known of a couple of old timers who tried to sell their rounds and couldn't find a buyer even though they were only asking shirt buttons. The other window cleaners just waited till he packed up then canvassed his roads themselves for free.
nice to see some people on here live in the real world this forum is great for advise about equipment and pracitical things but as soon s you start talking about money you get a whole load of creative writing.
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The thing with the forum is we all have different aims and goals, what is achievable to some may seam as fiction to another.
If when I started I new what potential there was in Window cleaning as I do now. I would buy a well established round that had been cultivated to give max potential. A good look at accounts and work would soon show what was achievable.
Drawing up a sensible business plan, and a business loan over the required period would enable you to step right in at the top end of the market. And for this I would be willing to pay.
But there are extremes in window cleaning, some change there squeegee rubbers daily others every month or more. Again some spend to promote there business others don’t.
The fact is neither are right or wrong, you set your goals as to what you want in life.
As I said earlier you can put what price tag on you like, but its only worth what someone will pay.
Roy
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The thing with the forum is we all have different aims and goals, what is achievable to some may seam as fiction to another.
If when I started I new what potential there was in Window cleaning as I do now. I would buy a well established round that had been cultivated to give max potential. A good look at accounts and work would soon show what was achievable.
Drawing up a sensible business plan, and a business loan over the required period would enable you to step right in at the top end of the market. And for this I would be willing to pay.
But there are extremes in window cleaning, some change there squeegee rubbers daily others every month or more. Again some spend to promote there business others don’t.
The fact is neither are right or wrong, you set your goals as to what you want in life.
As I said earlier you can put what price tag on you like, but its only worth what someone will pay.
Roy
Thats an excellent post most wise
We are all different with differing outlooks and what works for one wont work for another we all have aims and aspirations how we get their and the time taken to do this also differs
Therefore the value of each round can differ from the perspective of the owner but a well priced round should in theory be worth more
Dean
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i look at it has a business and im a business man im not just a window cleaning who has a round.
i feel i could if i wanted get good money for my business cause i would sell it to them like a do my customers!
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If a guy buys a round for £10 grand and he makes 25k a year, He will have earned 75k over 3 years.
The guy in UNI will have earned nothing during this time.
That was the point I was trying to make. Dai
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There are companys out there that specialise in this,they will value your business for you.If required they can help you sell it,for a fee of course.
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All shops and most businesses are self employed,you only ever buy good will in any business i don`t know where that mental approach comes from,buying any business is a gamble otherwise it would be easy wouldn`t it,it would be just a case of raising the money and you`d be earning straight away,that`s the beauty of our business you can do exactly that.
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I see your point dai i thought you was saying he would earn 75k in a year!!! and yes this is realistic and a very good point and thought provoking as what would give the greater return in the long run a degree or the round bought for 10k i suppose it would depend on the person and how they used the degree or round to their benefit.
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Phil.
A lot of sense by all the posters including you. Let me take you up on that creative thing.
I'm convinced that a lot of the successfull people - Roy Harding excepted- don't post because of the awfull backlash you can recieve. Look at the mauling I'v had over the last few days- Mr Solubity's super sonic crap- get rich quick merchant- £600 a day and never affected by weather- characterised as snidey etc.
Mention a branded system like ionics or concepto2, investing in a van mount, sign writing, or professionaly approaching leaflets and marketing and all heck can break loose.
So what I'm saying is leaving me aside- and assuming I do talk a lot of crap- very many people who are in a postion to give us a word to the wise don't, because of this mentality.
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Phil.
A lot of sense by all the posters including you. Let me take you up on that creative thing.
I'm convinced that a lot of the successfull people - Roy Harding excepted- don't post because of the awfull backlash you can recieve. Look at the mauling I'v had over the last few days- Mr Solubity's super sonic crap- get rich quick merchant- £600 a day and never affected by weather- characterised as snidey etc.
Mention a branded system like ionics or concepto2, investing in a van mount, sign writing, or professionaly approaching leaflets and marketing and all heck can break loose.
So what I'm saying is leaving me aside- and assuming I do talk a lot of crap- very many people who are in a postion to give us a word to the wise don't, because of this mentality.
I suppose another way of viewing it is that the really successful people are too busy building their businesses to be bothered with coming to an internet forum.
I can't see why someone would be attacked for being successful myself.
I'm not doing anything particularly special myself but this years turnover is on course to being nearly double of two years ago. Will probably be 80% more when all is done but might end up being double if I pull my finger out. Coming fairly close to doubling my turnover in nearly three years is reasonably successful I suppose. If my starting point had been very high, it might be something to shout about but as it is, it's just a decent achievement when you consider that this has been done as a sole trader rather than by taking on extra help.
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We couldn't get one single o2 user to post, and i have seen several examples of people telling what should have been inspirational success stories only to recieve severe bragging and name calling posts in reply.
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The title on this thread is "undervaluing ourselves" not how much should we value our businesses at.
It goes without saying that you only have a successful sale if you agree a price with a buyer, but what has that got to do with how we as w/c value ourselves.
I am sure that there are lots of posters on here who will never sell their businesses (maybe that includes me) because they value them higher than the market, nothing wrong in that, it just shows that you like and value your business greatly.