Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: birdymiller on January 18, 2008, 09:31:08 am
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I have been cleaning windows traditionally for 12 years. Due to having a bit of spare time on my hands since christmas due to the rain, i have been reading alot about cleaning windows using wfp. Just wondered whether it would suit my round. My round is all domestic work, i have done commercial in the past but prefer being able to turn up when i want and not having to commit myself to a specific appointment.
I am based in sheffield and in my area there arnt any wfp window cleaners that i know of that use it on domectic rounds, I have seen them in town on commercial. A typical day for me would start at 9am I park my car and work my way around the round and dont return to the car until ive finished.Would this suit wfp or would it be easier to do trad. This i would say is 3 to 4 days a week, but i also have a couple of days a week where i do a couple of houses then drive to another couple. I have read alot on here some saying they do 80-90% wfp and some saying they wfp 100%.
In my area 3 bed semis are £4, 4 bed det £6, terraced £3 but i do vary these prices depending how awkward/high the houses are. I beleive and i have been told by many customers that i do a good service and am reliable. I can regularly do £200 a day after i have paid my subbie. At the moment i am fit and bomb up and down the ladder all day no problem, whilst my subbie does the downstairs. Falling of the ladder hasnt been an issue yet touch wood as any dodgy windows get footed or left. I do have a problem when my subbie lets me down which can be regular as i do have some rounds that need alot of footing. But after reading about wfp i think it will be easier as i get older and unfitter. Is wfp faster, could i work on my own or is it easier in pairs.
I think that my may main concern is that at the moment my overheads are minimal, i am earning a good living and setting up for work just means pulling the ladders of my roof bars. If i was to invest a few grand in wfp and changing to a new van would i see returns. Is it hassle setting up, how many houses can you clean before you have to move the van. Would a backpack suit me or a trolley.How much are your overheads a week including fuel, does all the stopping and starting knacker your van.
I think i could do with some hands on experince of this system, anyone near me prepared to show me how they work?
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go for it the best move iv ever made beshor to give cutys a letter about wfp , yes you will move your van moor & moor derv & a new way of working dont wate till your knees are bugerged ext or till you brake a leg ,I bet you know sum shiners who have
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I have been cleaning windows traditionally for 12 years. Due to having a bit of spare time on my hands since christmas due to the rain, i have been reading alot about cleaning windows using wfp. Just wondered whether it would suit my round. My round is all domestic work, i have done commercial in the past but prefer being able to turn up when i want and not having to commit myself to a specific appointment.
I am based in sheffield and in my area there arnt any wfp window cleaners that i know of that use it on domectic rounds, I have seen them in town on commercial. A typical day for me would start at 9am I park my car and work my way around the round and dont return to the car until ive finished.Would this suit wfp or would it be easier to do trad. This i would say is 3 to 4 days a week, but i also have a couple of days a week where i do a couple of houses then drive to another couple. I have read alot on here some saying they do 80-90% wfp and some saying they wfp 100%.
In my area 3 bed semis are £4, 4 bed det £6, terraced £3 but i do vary these prices depending how awkward/high the houses are. I beleive and i have been told by many customers that i do a good service and am reliable. I can regularly do £200 a day after i have paid my subbie. At the moment i am fit and bomb up and down the ladder all day no problem, whilst my subbie does the downstairs. Falling of the ladder hasnt been an issue yet touch wood as any dodgy windows get footed or left. I do have a problem when my subbie lets me down which can be regular as i do have some rounds that need alot of footing. But after reading about wfp i think it will be easier as i get older and unfitter. Is wfp faster, could i work on my own or is it easier in pairs.
I think that my may main concern is that at the moment my overheads are minimal, i am earning a good living and setting up for work just means pulling the ladders of my roof bars. If i was to invest a few grand in wfp and changing to a new van would i see returns. Is it hassle setting up, how many houses can you clean before you have to move the van. Would a backpack suit me or a trolley.How much are your overheads a week including fuel, does all the stopping and starting knacker your van.
I think i could do with some hands on experince of this system, anyone near me prepared to show me how they work?
I don't live near you but I'm sure someone will oblige you.
My personal experience was as follows:-
I found that not all properties have suitable access for a van mount so used a trolley or a backpack on them. As time went by, I changed a few things to make it easier for myself. I bought a smaller bore hose to fit on my reel so I had a 100m reach instead of 50m (though I did sometimes daisy chain two 50m reels together). This enabled me to more easily do jobs where I couldn't park so close. I targetted properties that were suitable for a van mount and gradually phased out the work where I needed backpack/trolley. I found that I had to move the vehicle more even on compact work but the extra speed of WFP more than made up for any time taken todo this. WFP can be hard for a while as even regular jobs are first cleans (due to top frame scrubbing and needing to be thorough first time). Also, to some degree, you need to re-learn your round in terms of best places to park, which order to do windows in etc. It can be a pig at first but well worth it in the medium to long term. This year, my turnover will be at least 80% up on the last year I did trad cleaning (October 04 - Sept 05) - though expenses are higher too. The plus side of this is loweer tax bill though. This January is the first year that my largest capital expenses are being taken into account so I actually don't have to pay the taxman anything this month. In fact, they owe me - but I won't claim it back as I would rather offset it against the money due in July.
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i presume at those prices you dont do the frames, which you will have to do wfp an so charge more, also if you do go wfp, dont use fairy change to gg3/4, if you are using fairy, for the last clean before change over and also clean all the tops of frames while your up the ladder, it will make life easier
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My goodness I hope you are joking about those prices. 3 Bed semi I charge £15 to £20. Trad.
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i presume at those prices you dont do the frames, which you will have to do wfp an so charge more
Yes, but don't do both at once.
That's a sure way to lose customers.
I lost a shed-load due to the change, and I kept my prices.
If I'd asked for money and expected them to accept wet windows I'd have lost most.
My goodness I hope you are joking about those prices. 3 Bed semi I charge £15 to £20.
I hope you are joking about those prices. ::)
£15 to £20 for a 10-15 minutes semi?
That's ridiculous, I'm amazed you've got any customers left.
£10 is the most anyone I know charges.
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I USED UNGER LIQUID & IT WENT WELL WITH WFP
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cheers lads. So with a 100m hose how many houses do you normally do before you move?
There has been plenty of debate about price on here, but as already been posted on forum nationally prices vary. A normal 3 bed semi in my area is worth £150,000 it takes me and the lad about seven mins to clean. We wipe all sills and do all windows. Some of my semis are £8, they dont have a conservatory they are just high and need footing. If i could charge £15 then i would, id be on £150 an hour like you gqc, but i have to charge the going rate in my area.
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i presume at those prices you dont do the frames, which you will have to do wfp an so charge more
Yes, but don't do both at once.
That's a sure way to lose customers.
I lost a shed-load due to the change, and I kept my prices.
If I'd asked for money and expected them to accept wet windows I'd have lost most.
My goodness I hope you are joking about those prices. 3 Bed semi I charge £15 to £20.
I hope you are joking about those prices. ::)
£15 to £20 for a 10-15 minutes semi?
That's ridiculous, I'm amazed you've got any customers left.
£10 is the most anyone I know charges.
3 Bedroom semi, can take about 20min on my round, and yea £15 is perfectly justified. People take it, so why not? I'm trying to earn atleast £30 an hour.
Then again, this is Guildford heh. Some people spend £50-60 on a hairdresser.
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theres a guy on peter fogwells forum, window-tools forum , hes from sheffield and has just gone wfp and loves it, go on there and ask him about it, he may talk to you unless he dont want the competion
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3 Bedroom semi, can take about 20min on my round, and yea £15 is perfectly justified. People take it, so why not? I'm trying to earn atleast £30 an hour.
I take £25-30 per hour.
3 or 4 semis at £8 or £9 is £30 per hour.
At your prices I'd be doing more like £60 per hour.
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That would mean that'd have to be right next to each other. Which my round is not. Some parts are some parts aren't.
Couple of new jobs that I have, 25min 3 bedroom semi, £22. People are happier then they've ever been after I cleaned them, not even a hm..or a blink about the price.
So yea, I can imagine it's not the same everywhere, but you have to pay £500 atleast for a studio flat already, so what you earn you have to spend a lot of it aswell remember.
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I charge £16 for a basic 3 bed semi and £20-£23 for a 4 bed...and I'm considered cheap. I suppose it depends on where you live.
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cheers lads. So with a 100m hose how many houses do you normally do before you move?
There has been plenty of debate about price on here, but as already been posted on forum nationally prices vary. A normal 3 bed semi in my area is worth £150,000 it takes me and the lad about seven mins to clean. We wipe all sills and do all windows. Some of my semis are £8, they dont have a conservatory they are just high and need footing. If i could charge £15 then i would, id be on £150 an hour like you gqc, but i have to charge the going rate in my area.
Sounds to me you have a nice compact round and earning good money from it (£200 a day is good dough in anybodies language). If you're doing a 3 bedder in 7 minutes I reckon wfp would slow you down. The safety thing doesn't matter to you because you have a lad footing. Your fitness comes from running up and down ladders all day.
Mate if it ain't broken why fix it?
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Most of my work is fortnightly. A lot of the lads on here talk about monthly and 8 weekly work. Would wfp work fortnightly?
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And depends on how long each takes.
I'd charge £200 for a 3 bed semi if it took all day.
I'd charge £1 if it took one minute.
So obviously the price needs to be somewhere between these two.
Its all down to how much care you take, and what you are doing (frames or not, sills or not etc or not).
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I charge £16 for a basic 3 bed semi and £20-£23 for a 4 bed...and I'm considered cheap. I suppose it depends on where you live.
I'm moving.
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Hi Birdy,
First of all; take no notice of the bragging about how much folks charge ::)
If YOU are happy then that's OK
Now, by the sounds of it you're earning a decent income as you are ;)
But you have ladder issues which rely on another person ::)
So. if I were you, and I am not at all as fit as you ;D I would look to going WFP over the next 12 months. There is no rush.
This is MY suggested plan:
The basic idea is to purify water to NO dissolved solids (minerals). Take out the pure water. Pump it up a water fed pole and brush and rince the windows clean ;)
SIMPLE ::) ??? ;)
1. Have you got a garage/shed/outbuilding at home where you can get a about 10ft x 5ft floor space? If so you can look to setting up a static tank and filter system in the building.
2. Do you know if you are in a soft water or hard water area? Good idea to buy a TDS meter
http://www.cleantech.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_39&products_id=199
Test your tap water. If it is 075 or below then a simple De-Ionising filter will be fine. If it's over (it most likely will be) then you have to go for a more complicated Reverse Osmosis system
3. I personally prefer a backpack and pole. You can go anywhere. No hoses all over. But to use it efficiently you have to set it up right ;)
Give me a call if you like.
07815106363
David Salkeld
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I charge £16 for a basic 3 bed semi and £20-£23 for a 4 bed...and I'm considered cheap. I suppose it depends on where you live.
I'm moving.
There does seem to be a big difference between London prices and prices outside of it....which is daft really. The only thing that's cheaper (generally) outside of london is property. Everything else is roughly the same price as far as i can make out. I pay £1.05 for petrol...bet you pay the same. I pay £1200 a year Council Tax. A tin of baked beans in Asda is 40p (?)...reckon the Asda in Wales charges 40p as well!....the list is endless!
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cheers david
Appreciate all that mate. So when you are using the back pack how many houses/windows can you clean before you run out. How do you refill it or do you simply change the tank. Do you have tank in the car or do you carry full replacement tanks.
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Birdy,
Give me a call. I can explain easier than typing it all out.
David
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I use a trolly with 12x 25ltr containers. this allows me about 15 houses. I charge between £5 and £10 depending on the size of the house.
I can get 15 done per day. (9am to 4pm, 1 hour for lunch)
WFP is the best move I have made. Very worth the initial investment. Use the WFP explaination letter around the customers and you will be fine :)
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david ill call you later gonna go and try and get some done cheers
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Yesterday in the rain'ish,
spitting in morning sun all afternoon and mad thunderstorm at scool run time hee hee
I did 15 customers moved the car 4 times had a sarnie on the walk back each time.
I move the car to where I believe that I will need my next change so works out quite good for me.
I would not have been cleaning by myself in the slippery inclement weather that has been here all week so WFP is a good investment to me
I know I am building up my round and I know my prices are cheap for this area thanx to GWC
My mates charge more than me too but one has a polish lad working with him and the other has another fireman working with him part time (he is a firman too)
but when we worked out the hourly rate we were the same on some days and he was say £20 better off on some days.
to me this is fine he is out today catching up on his work and I am canversing later and sorting out work quotes kids etc etc
WFP HAS given me that freedom God I feel like FEEN saying that lol (sorry fella)
6 hours work and a good hourley rate £20 -£25 can not knock that.
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cheers lads. So with a 100m hose how many houses do you normally do before you move?
There has been plenty of debate about price on here, but as already been posted on forum nationally prices vary. A normal 3 bed semi in my area is worth £150,000 it takes me and the lad about seven mins to clean. We wipe all sills and do all windows. Some of my semis are £8, they dont have a conservatory they are just high and need footing. If i could charge £15 then i would, id be on £150 an hour like you gqc, but i have to charge the going rate in my area.
Sounds to me you have a nice compact round and earning good money from it (£200 a day is good dough in anybodies language). If you're doing a 3 bedder in 7 minutes I reckon wfp would slow you down. The safety thing doesn't matter to you because you have a lad footing. Your fitness comes from running up and down ladders all day.
Mate if it ain't broken why fix it?
Spot on ;)
With what you describe i would also think wfp would slow you down. dragging a hose around semis/terrace etc is not always an easy or quick thing to do wether it be 1/2" or microbore. acsess is a major problem with wfp, to say, you can get to most places with a hose & pole BUT with a round which was made up of say- council houses, semis, terrace etc it could be so much hassle & time wasting that it wasn't worth it.
There are many good points to wfp but IMO it is not suited to all & everyone's work, it is not always quicker or easier & is more suited to detatched, larger properties. It's not just about how fast you can clean a window, but also moving vans/trollies, filling backpacks, dragging hoses, reeling them back in, moving flower pots, hose getting cought up on every little thing that is above surface level etc.etc. It's certainly not as rosy as some would have you believe.
200 quid a day trad is a very good earner, there is a very good chance that with your current work you may not reach that figure. ;)
tony
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To d.salkeld, nice to see sense talked on here at last to m.uch bragging &BS
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To d.salkeld, nice to see sense talked on here at last to m.uch bragging &BS
Quite right. When reading this forum you really do have to sift the chaff from the grain.
This forum is the equivalent of standing in the boozer with work mates and giving it the large ;D
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Birdy,
A pic of my trailer system with Backpack
David
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cheers for the photo. Just posted this on another thread, any chance of picking your brain over the weekend. Dont worry if it is not convenient, i will call you next week when it rains again if you prefer.
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Birdy,
Ring me today...not Sun
David
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Doing what you do a backpack is as much use as a chocolate fireguard!!
7 mins for a semi is fast in anyone's book. You would spend most of your time refilling the backpack. You would do very well to get 2 small semis from 1 backpack fill. Trollies wont do it either so your only real option IF you go WFP is a van mount with 2 working from it.
To be honest it seems you have refined your working practices as much as you can and it works well for you now. WFP will definately slow you down a whole lot the 1st and 2nd time round and you may get to break even on time it takes on the 3rd time round.
With such compact work and (No offence intended) at your prices you have to really knock out the numbers to make a decent living. I honestly doubt you will get much faster overall. I guess the question you really have to answer is do you want to increase your chances of staying fit and not have a bad accident by falling from a ladder. LADDER BOYS.. I am not saying ladders are unsafe. It is fact that not using them is much safer though.
Where you will gain time is any that have to be footed. 1 man instead of 2 to do a window.
So.. you are making a decent living now. 1 fall could end all that. I would go WFP just for the safety aspect. Also you could work on days that you can't now. Over the last few days/weeks I havent lost any time due to rain. I do windows in light to moderate rain and on chuckin it down days I do Con roofs, UPVC cleans etc.
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cheers steven ainger i have got in touch with him.
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I'm one of the ones you've been warned about birdy.
Having read the posts they do seem to have it right.
Going into wfp is a good move, but in your circumstances you might have to view it as a completely new and seperate business.
Start up costs to do it properly are about 12k(my scudo was 7k plus vat). You would have to work very very hard for about a year or two juggling these two.
I can see from the articulation of your posts that you've got the brains, but working that hard can come at a high personal price.
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David
I have been speaking to a guy on a another forum who lives 5 mins away and does wfp from a trailor. Once i have caught up with my work a bit i am going to go and watch wfp in action. Cheers for the help and stuff. Ive got your number so if its alright with you if i need any more advice before i invest ill call you.
Birdy
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I'm one of the ones you've been warned about birdy.
Having read the posts they do seem to have it right.
Going into wfp is a good move, but in your circumstances you might have to view it as a completely new and seperate business.
Start up costs to do it properly are about 12k(my scudo was 7k plus vat). You would have to work very very hard for about a year or two juggling these two.
I can see from the articulation of your posts that you've got the brains, but working that hard can come at a high personal price.
Mr S,
sry to have a pop at you but please can you stop knocking people about spelling ect just because you can write in the correct manner does not mean you have got "the" brians it means you learnt at school to do this.
I left school early (as you will tell by my spelling and grammer), I went self employed and I used my talents of talking to people to make money for many years and still do this now ( I earnt more than my teachers at school when I was 16 (who has the brains there then) can you see my point, I now employ so others make me money. Just because people do not speak like a dictonary does not mean they do not have brains, I know you did not say this, but this is the way I am reading it. You seem a nice guy so please stop it as it makes you look bad ;)
Rant over.
Ian
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I mean't that he thought with clarity, and the clarity of his thoughts came over in his speech/writing. I have never thought that your thinking was muddled.
I take what you say, but there is another side to this. I think that you are a natural entrepreneur, but there are also things in books, business books, that can be helpfull too.
A lot of the things I say are not mine, they are things I have read and am repeating.
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I mean't that he thought with clarity, and the clarity of his thoughts came over in his speech/writing. I have never thought that your thinking was muddled.
I take what you say, but there is another side to this. I think that you are a natural entrepreneur, but there are also things in books, business books, that can be helpfull too.
A lot of the things I say are not mine, they are things I have read and am repeating.
I can tell some of the thing you write are from books you read as I read books a few books on business subjects myself also motivation.
I took it the way I did as will others, I personally say what I think, and maybe you are coming across wrong sometimes without knowing it.
read that post again and look from anothers point of view.
I am just pointing this out to you as i see it more an more in your posts and it was never like it before on your post before you changed names m8 , maybe change the book your reading :P
Ian
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I havnt got a clue what you two are on about
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If you do go wfp I wouldn't distribute a leaflet to ALL of your customers explaining the system and the initial 'spotting' effect they may experience etc.
I would only give out this explanation to the customers who ask you for one.
The reason behind this is that a lot of your customers, that are at work through the day, will not even check their windows as they are used to you doing a good job anyway so will pay you without complaint.
Giving them a leaflet telling them that there service is changing and they may experience some teething problems is guaranteed to get the scrutinising there windows and believe me they will find spots and runs at first and may cancel as a result.
Others may disagree with this but I found this to be the case and others that I have advised accordingly have benifited from this thought. I think its common sense.
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If you do go wfp I wouldn't distribute a leaflet to ALL of your customers explaining the system and the initial 'spotting' effect they may experience etc.
I would only give out this explanation to the customers who ask you for one.
The reason behind this is that a lot of your customers, that are at work through the day, will not even check their windows as they are used to you doing a good job anyway so will pay you without complaint.
Giving them a leaflet telling them that there service is changing and they may experience some teething problems is guaranteed to get the scrutinising there windows and believe me they will find spots and runs at first and may cancel as a result.
Others may disagree with this but I found this to be the case and others that I have advised accordingly have benifited from this thought. I think its common sense.
Agree with you there Matty. Just be honest and POSITIVE about it:
Something on these lines:
"It does take a couple of cleans to totally wash ALL the muck out of All the window. Now you get the frames and, if you wish, doors thoroughly washed. If there are any bad marks left when they dry ring me and I will put it right. Thankyou"
But don't put this in a leaflet and post it through every door. Just use it an explanation to those who ask.
David
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totally agree with what dave says there dont go into to much detail about any possible probs cos some custs will start looking for marks that they probly never would have noticed before also bear in mind that painted wooden frames are more likely to cause probs with wfp specially if they are a bit rough i lost a total of 3 customers in changing over but still consider it a good move. And you DONT need to spend 12 grand to "do it properly" specially if your mostly domestic