Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: edd on January 04, 2008, 07:29:51 pm
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HI ALL HAPPY NEW YEAR
my ppm is ooo up till xmas then for some reason over the week off it went up to 34ppm ok.....
so we changed the resin for a bag of purlite mb400 [ which is what we always use ] and before
the windows never sheeted down down like others discribe , and now nearly all windows sheet
down WHY IS THIS??? I am not saying its a better result its just easier to do and looks better when
finished you know not all drops of water everywhere
1. new filters every 50000 litres
2.tds always 000 ppm
3 ro backflushed daily
4 same resin and from same place
any help on this strange one would help Edd
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Has the Purolite formula been changed even though it says mb400 on the bag ?
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Maybe it`s more virgin than normal.
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Are you saying TDS is 34 and you don't understand why, but this is doing a better job than 000 because the water now sheets on all windows?
Maybe Someones put squirt of dishwashing rinsing agent into your tank?
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"Rinse aid" was just one of the solutions that we found failed to solve the spotting problem. :'(
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Listen Jeff now i know you`ve tried all different ways of eliminating spotting etc and have trialed and errored most avenues and have more experience than most but i have to tell you,over the last couple of weeks i have added a whiskey glass full of that iospranol stuff to 500ltrs and i have to tell you the results are far far better than using just pure water only,no joke there is no spotting it cleans better and leaves a shine like never before,from now on i`m using it all the time.
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Jeff,how do you find untreated rainwater in general compared to the tap water that had gone thru` your RO unit? Did you ever treat water from say 34 ppm down to
Zero using just resin,Dowex,Purlite or whatever? The original poster( sorry forgotten
Your name,I apolgise) is saying in a nutshell that Purlite resin is changing hydraphobic glass into hydraphilc glass.Perhaps the makers are putting something into the beads to make it happen,and I don`t mean windscreen fluid !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wonder if were` on the verge of discovering the holy grail of window cleaning??
i.e. To make all those pesky window sheet instead of bead?? If only!!!!!!
Lewis Doubtfire Gleem Clean ( The blade Runner )
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NWH Thats a great result and although we used Iso for antfreeze we never tried it for the sheeting trick so well done. Good research over a period of time. I had noticed you where doing it from posts on anotherforums. (I just didnt want peoples expectancys raised for rinseaid.)
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Have you not noticed better results when using the antifreeze Jeff,maybe you didn`t use enough i went the whole hog and put in quiet a bit.
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Lewis, ever since I started I have always used RO and had probs with spotting even with 000tds. What your suggesting - that rainwater helps the glass sheet is a possibility. I do find that the rainwater is softer and wonder if its something to do with lets say a "static charge" or process that the RO water goes through, that the rainwater doesnt ?
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No NWH but as I said its one trick we missed. I suggested 10ml per 10L as an antifreeze.
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Nigel,just can`t bring it to mind who it was,but in another thread,somewhere
The fella said that before being a window cleaner his job entailed working
With water combined with isopropanol . He said the isopropanol soon evaporated
And had no bearing on it.I wonder if what your experiencing is some kind of
Chemical reaction?
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Vedd uses hot water, that hot that he is reputed to crack windows. Recently the weather, and probably the glass, has been abnormally cold.
Given Brownian movement ect maybe it's just the temp difference.
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Wonder if this is end of `thread`.Mr.Solubility is possibly right.
A new `thread` might be the `way to go`. i.e.` Hot versus Cold`
For sheeting glass.Also Jeff,don`t forget the electric charge with
Your pump in ya backpack as well as the RO.When ya think the
Water goes thru` quite a bit of processing before it reaches the
Window glass !
Lewis Doubtfire
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Wonder if this is end of `thread`.Mr.Solubility is possibly right.
A new `thread` might be the `way to go`. i.e.` Hot versus Cold`
For sheeting glass.Also Jeff,don`t forget the electric charge with
Your pump in ya backpack as well as the RO.When ya think the
Water goes thru` quite a bit of processing before it reaches the
Window glass !
Lewis Doubtfire
With regards to using hot water to minimise globular spots left on hydrophobic glass. I've had far less spotting on hydrophobic glass using hot water rather than cold. I have the odd window that doesn't sheet very well and it tends to be strengthened glass patio doors, especially if they have a tinted covering. Hot water definitely sheets windows easier than using cold water.
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Wayne, at freezing, what temp is your "hot"water ?
just a note Iso is a "wetting agent"
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Lewis using that stuff definetly makes the window`s look cleaner i have no doubt,i have used it now for over 3 weeks,i used it originally for cold weather but i`m now using it all the time cold or not.I`ve been using WFP for long enough now to see the difference when adding the isopropanol, and it does make the window`s appear cleaner after drying,don`t ask me why.
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Lots of things to think about, one I noticed was that between cleans there seems to be a build up of something - lets say its a wax, and that this wax needs a good scrub to break it up to get the sheet effect. Maybe and I aint trying to side step, maybe the alchohol (also a solvent)helps break that film/wax/dirt quicker and better.
The other famous spirit for cleaning as we all know is Meths and that leaves glass Squeeky Clean
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Wayne, at freezing, what temp is your "hot"water ?
just a note Iso is a "wetting agent"
Hello Jeff,
My Omnipole hot water unit heats the water to a set 60 Celsius.
I use hot water on double glazed glass and warm to tepid on single glazing and old delicate, thin glass. I am always aware of thermal shock, i.e. using very hot water on thin, old glass in very cold temperatures. In the summer I don't worry about the glass.
If it's near freezing, what I'll do is preheat my van baffled tank to tepid to warm-ish.
I regulate how cold I want to make the water by leaving a much longer than needed length of unwound hose on the ground so that some of the heat is dispersed through the hose which is lying on the very cold ground if I'm cleaning really thin, delicate old glass.
I try to leave cleaning really old properties 'til around lunch time when the glass has warmed from the sun and air temperature rising.
If I'm cleaning double glazing then all I do is turn the heater unit on and just draw the already pre warmed water through the heater so that it comes out at my pole nice and hot. I always try, when and where possible, to do these type of houses first on extremely cold mornings and save the old buildings to around mid-day if possible.
It's not always possible to work the way I do, but with careful planning of schedule it's a routine I've got into now to minmise cracking any glass. My problem is I clean a lot of old Victorian and even some Edwardian properties. The good thing is that they sheet unbelievably easy and are very quick to clean because of the sheeting.
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Thanks for that good reply,
So by tepid do you mean (would you guess) approx 25 degrees temp above the freezing glass ?
Pre 1967 "tin "float glass generally sheeted great, its after that when the Double glazing industry started messing about with fancy polishes and we got "Oil floated" glass etc that I noticed spotting problems. I have long been building up my round concentrating on sheeting glass.
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Thanks for that good reply,
So by tepid do you mean (would you guess) approx 25 degrees temp above the freezing glass ?
Yes Jeff :)
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Going back to the original post, maybe it has something to do with the way that the resin is charged. Most resins are balanced +/- but maybe it was more + or - or maybe it was balanced perfectly when most resins are not.
Simon.
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Doesn't matter if a window sheets or beads as far as results are concerned.
In fact I've had more bad results from sheeting ones than beading.
The best glass is the sort that bead off almost totally and almost look dry immediately.
It's like water off a duck's back.
I've only got a few like it, but it's perfect every time.
Sheeting just looks better for the customer, because you can still see through it.
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Doesn't matter if a window sheets or beads as far as results are concerned.
In fact I've had more bad results from sheeting ones than beading.
The best glass is the sort that bead off almost totally and almost look dry immediately.
It's like water off a duck's back.
I've only got a few like it, but it's perfect every time.
Sheeting just looks better for the customer, because you can still see through it.
I agree with you squeaky, I have a few windows that the water runs off near on dry aswell which is great only wish all windows were the same.
Sheeting tends to pull water down pulling anything down with it (which can leave spots, beading one little bit in the beads and again spots.
Ian
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With there being quite a few topics on sheeting/Iso/Hotwash etc on different forums its difficult to know where to put this reply.
Over on Peters forum Theres a topic about Iso and freezing and how it may help with cleaning the glass/sheeting etc.
Some of the members trialling it or showing an interest are.
Bazzer 933
Stuart MCI
NWH
hwcs
Duke
taffy
scriman
Jason
LWC
DW
My 7am tests this morning on 12 different location, phobic windows that nearly always result in spotting was that they still have spots with 10ml/Litre of Rainwater and ISO added. Using a Monofilament brush and a .8L/min flow.
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jeff you've mentioned before that you are able to clean windows with very small amounts of water and achieve good results. On windows which spot have you tried using more water to combat the problem. My thinking is what ever is causing the spotting will be in a greater volume of water possible resulting in no spots as the water which usually spots would be diluted if you catch my drift.
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Thanks Phil, your thinking is "spot on" , yes I have a tap on the brush to turn the flow up when needed.
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Doesn't matter if a window sheets or beads as far as results are concerned.
In fact I've had more bad results from sheeting ones than beading.
The best glass is the sort that bead off almost totally and almost look dry immediately.
It's like water off a duck's back.
I've only got a few like it, but it's perfect every time.
Sheeting just looks better for the customer, because you can still see through it.
Squeaky,
With the glass that beads and dries fast how do you know when you ve got the dirt of.
I always seem to spend ages on these cos Im not sure whn its clean.In fact Ive started blading them off to save time[if there downstairs.
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Don't know really. I can just see it.
I guess they never really attract much dust in 4 weeks.
Those with that type of window have been my most satisfied customers with wfp.
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Blading off the downstairs is a lack of faith in your system, but carry on as many of us do it if we are not sure. Until you build the confidence and experience. Which takes time and faith.
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There`s absolutley no point in keeping on blading them off,you just need to give them a few cleans to see if they come good with the pole,nearly all window`s come good in the end except ali framed ones.
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Maybe that acetone stuff would be good Jeff,it`s supposed to break down polish.
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The only way to remove the old type of silicon/petroleum based polish is mechanical abrasion. Problem is that glass is porous and the coating goes deep into the pits of the glass micro surface so as its "down in a hole" you cannot scrub it. :'( tried acetone.
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Has anyone checked the ph of their water - it might be pure but it could still be acidic/alcaline or vice versa. In the print trade the purity and acidity were constantly checked whereas we only check the purity, it might also have some bearing on the behaviour of droplets on glass. Isoproponol reduces surface tension and will make the glass wetter it has the effect of flattening the water beads. We used it at ten to twelve percent in cooled pure water. The higher the water temperature the more isoproponal is required to have the desired effect so if you wanted to use the same levels as we used to, you would need 10% of your 650lt tank which would be far too expensive. NWH might be getting good results but with the amount he's using and allowing for evaporation i would doubt they were that much different.
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On a much simpler note it might just be down to how porus the glass is, the more of a grain it has the wetter it will become whereas the more highly polished it is the faster it will bead. Certain chemicals repel water such as wax,grease and silicone. I wonder what the main ingredient is in waterproofing sprays and Thompsons waterproof coating for bricks.
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Cheers DJW, NWH and others.
Over on Pros in the A_Z archives section theres an old 4 page topic (July 2004) called "Zap the spots together" so this isnt anything new.
If you cannot put a coating on the glass because it makes the beading problems worse (Rain-X by Penzoil for eg.) and you cannot remove the coating, then you need another solution.
I have been itching to tell someone this but on a lighter note. We have been working on that other solution since May and hope to have it ready for the Cleaning Show, (Lewis Doubtfire knows about it but is sworn to secrecy) We dont have financial backing so are doing it on a shoestring and need to put various protections in place to cover the intelectual rights/patents. The Backpacks, Modular poles etc earned nothing but hopefully with this one we will earn a small ammount and some recognition.
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Nigel ( NWH) and DJ,regarding isopropanol,your opinions are as different
As `chalk and cheese` I guess.`Squeaks` wether your windows `bead` or `sheet`
Even at 20 foot,how do you know wether that window will dry `spot` free?????
Ya don`t,it`s impossible.Like Jeff says,it`s faith and experience.What about if
Your in towns and city centres at 3 am doing office blocks at 60 to 80 feet???
Pitch dark,can`t see a thing.There can be masses of bird mess,you don`t know,
Because ya can`t see a thing!! Am I teaching grandma to suck eggs here or what?
Yes Jeff,I am sworn to secrecy,and a secret it will stay.It`s in it`s infancy,I call
It searching for the holy grail…ie. Clean ya windows and turn phobic glass into
Hydraphlic glass.There again as some previous posts have stated.some fella`s
Prefer phobic to hydrophilic…………………….To each his own I guess.
Lewis Doubtfire Gleem Clean ( The Blade Runner )
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been reading this thread with interest. Jeff are you saying that you have produced a solution that will make all windows sheet? And are you saying that glass that sheets have a less chance of spotting than glass that beads?
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Yes we have and yes.
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No thanks, they're miles quicker than sheeting ones which you have to rinse and rinse and then can't tell if they're clean.
With water repellent glass it leaves nothing behind and it's dry in an instant.
It's definately the way to go, and more new houses are being built with it, thank god.
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Call me a wild eyed blabber mouth but how can your secret wc ingredient that you've been working on in secret, makes windows sheet and spots disappear in a totally secret way still be a windex total secret surprise when you've just told us?
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The principles of your catalyst project are very interesting.
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No thanks, they're miles quicker than sheeting ones which you have to rinse and rinse and then can't tell if they're clean.
With water repellent glass it leaves nothing behind and it's dry in an instant.
It's definately the way to go, and more new houses are being built with it, thank god.
Squeeky, Yes some of the window installers-Everest is one use glass that doesnt now cause us probs, water repellent glass as you call it works great -untill the housewife or window installer, painter or some buffoon, puts some "Magic Wax Cleaner" on it at a later date and turns it hphobic,
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Did`nt know that Jeff!! I thought that say when Pilkington`s `turn em out`
At the kiln and after,that`s it,it`s coated with `whatever` and the glass is
Phobic.I don`t think many of my clients/customers will have been anywhere
Near the window glass,especially the top windows to start rubbing in WindowLene
Or whatever else.On average I would say 8 out of 10 of my window glass I clean
Is phobic.What do you fella`s find it at? Squeaky,can you tell us how much water
Do you use on an average size window that’s phobic to get a spot free,clean finish?
Thanks.
Lewis Doubtfire Gleem Clean ( The Blade Runner )
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Did`nt know that Jeff!! I thought that say when Pilkington`s `turn em out`
At the kiln and after,that`s it,it`s coated with `whatever` and the glass is
Phobic.I don`t think many of my clients/customers will have been anywhere
Near the window glass,especially the top windows to start rubbing in WindowLene
Or whatever else.On average I would say 8 out of 10 of my window glass I clean
Is phobic.What do you fella`s find it at? Squeaky,can you tell us how much water
Do you use on an average size window that’s phobic to get a spot free,clean finish?
Thanks.
Lewis Doubtfire Gleem Clean ( The Blade Runner )
How the hell would I know how much water I use on a window? ;D
All I know is I point it at that sort of glass half as long as one that sheets, because you can trust it more and virtually all the water is rinsed off in seconds.
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The only way I know to reduce surface tension(make water wetter), decrease the viscosity(make it flow easier), without adding some kind of soaping agent is to heat it.
The only other ways to get the water off the glass(without blading it)would be magnetic repulsion or some kind of high pressure blower mounted atop the pole pointing down that could be used to finish off with.
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With the hose on the outside, modular hollow poles lend themselves to it. An airblade over the brush connected to a leafblower does work but its double the effort.
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It is a mystery to me, how some windows that are really dirty will sheet, only to start beading after a few cleans.
When I first went WFP, and was able to reach windows over cons that had not been done fore years, some of them sheeted perfectly for a couple of cleans, then started beading. WHY?
If windows bead, and the beads stay put until they dry, there is more chance that airborne dust can stick to them and leave spots. I believe the real source of most spotting is the frames, most spots are right next to them. The more attention you give to the frames the less spotting you get, it's a question of how much time you can devote to the frames, and some frames are a lot easier to clean properly than others.
If you want perfect results on all windows, the frames may have to be considered when pricing the job. Dai
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No idea why Dai.
When I first started I used to keep a log of the custy windows that sheeted and others that didnt, because over time we forget. I have seen where one side of a pair of panes will sheet and the otherside beads where the custy has reached out, could it have been the custy affecting the glass ? Have you changed your make of brush or gone from St through to Ott or changed to fans etc or your RO/DI system since you started ?
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I have been itching to tell someone this but on a lighter note. We have been working on that other solution since May and hope to have it ready for the Cleaning Show
Is that Windex?
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I have been itching to tell someone this but on a lighter note. We have been working on that other solution since May and hope to have it ready for the Cleaning Show
Is that Windex?
how do you get stands at windex ?
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My own conservatory has 36 glass panels in it,only one beads the rest sheet.Its only ever been cleaned with water.My son suggested they might have fitted it the wrong way.......... lol . I dont know
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NO one has answered the question yet .............. humm????
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Reply #1 ?
Have you noticed it on other glass as well ?
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I have several houses that have had their windows cleaned with Mr Muscle or something similar at some time in the past and are still waxy years later. One house in particular has been cleaned trad for 3years using squeegee off and WFP for 2 years and is no better now. Even if you clean them trad today the soap goes into what I call 50p shapes.
You never can be sure what the history of a window is, even new windows aren't exempt because the installers could have given them a wipe over with some so called glass cleaner.
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The windows I did over cons had not been cleaned for years, and sheeted perfectly for a couple of cleans.
It's highly unlikely that the house holder would have put something on the glass, having not been able to get near them previously. I still use the same set up I started with apart from the brushes, but I was still using the original Vikan when I first noticed this.
I listened to an interesting programme the other week about waterproofing. It said that the best way to renew water proofing on an old jacket, was to tumble dry it. This opens up the pores so that the fabric has tiny holes in it, this causes the water to form beads and run off. It's the same with soil after prolonged dry weather. The water runs off instead of soaking in, hence the "right kind of rain" they were talking about.
Maybe, just maybe, the glass that beads has tiny indentations. The water could settle in them. and the surface tension holds them there. The beads must be gripping the glass somehow. Dai
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By cleaning with isopropanol for a long enough time you should eventually break down this wax therefore leading to lots more sheeting window`s,that`s my aim.Window`s that bead up on waxy window`s can be a dream to do providing that there giorgian panes of glass,glass that beads up on larger window`s can cause some spotting but for some reason on the smaller panes spotting seems to be minimal.
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It's probably more to do with the proportional mix of anions to cations in a bag of de-ionised resin because some unreputable suppiers buy both and mix in different proportions to enhance their profit margins. Do a ph test on the water to see if it reads neutral, acid or alkaline.
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Maybe, just maybe, the glass that beads has tiny indentations. The water could settle in them. and the surface tension holds them there. The beads must be gripping the glass somehow. Dai
Thats really cool Dai
8)
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Glass is pourous,it has millions and millions of tiny holes in it.That`s why this new glass with a water repellent like covering is good for us as it gives a more only what can be described as a flatter surface.
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What is this isopropanol? I did enough chemistry to know its an alcohol but where do you get it? I'll give it a try.
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As we speak i`m trying to find the details.
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Isoproponol is commonly used in lithographic printing. If you find a print supplier they sell it in 20l containers. We used gallons of the stuff.
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Right,DJW,you say Isopropanol soon evaporates,virtually straightaway,
Is that right? Nigel ( NWH) you `swear` by the stuff for making window glass
More hydrophilic than hydrophobic , right? And your convinced it`s the Isopropanol?
It can`t be anything else? If this lot turns into `flame war` blame me,I hold my hands up now !
Lewis Doubtfire Gleem Clean ( The Blade Runner )
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Isoproponal is commonly used in lithographic printing. If you find a print supplier they sell it in 20l containers. We used gallons of the stuff.
You mean like the stuff for cleaning the rollers etc?
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No not a solvent for cleaning rollers. It's a clear liquid with a high alcohol content used specifically in the print trade to reduce the surface tension of pure water and other additives to enable the lithographic printing process to use less water. In effect it makes water "wetter"by flattening out the water droplets (reduced surface tension) and making it more controllable on the printing plate. It evaporates very quickly and so is normally cooled. It also is a health hazard and burns much like meths or petrol.
http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PR/2-propanol.html
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Is this product similar to nail varnish remover?
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Whatever it is,if it does work like Nigel says,on the dilution rates that he also
Gives users to use it as,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,It`s hellish good stuff,,,,,,,,,,,and some!
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Mmm i'm not convinced it's good stuff to slosh around the windows and into the air or that in the tiny amounts NWH is using that there would be much benefit. It's a bit like the acetone in your deisel debate if you think it will work then it usually does but i would doubt it would alter a panes characteristics but i'm no expert and am happy to be proved wrong. ;)
I've just googled it and apparently it is commonly used as a solvent and is found in loads of other products.
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I have tried a product marketed as Flash car cleaning solution. It has a rinse aid in it. I have cleaned windows that bead with this stuff and they sheet off when you rinse. They continue to sheet afterwards for many, many cleans (2 years). I thought it was a fluke. I will try it out again if it is still for sale.
There is also a product that is put in car wash rinses that makes the water run off. I think this may work too.
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JB has tried rinse aid i beleive without much luck,but it`s worth a try.
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It may or may not help water sheet but the few makes we did try did not reduce spotting which is what we are tring to acheive ?
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.
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Just a thought - if ypu put a small amount in a glass of water and leave it, does the isoproponol seperate? If it does then you could end up with it at the top of your tank. In the printing process the water mixture was constantly cooled and circulated. Just a thought.