Clean It Up
UK General Cleaning Forum => General Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Lesley J on December 13, 2007, 11:04:09 pm
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I have an employee that started work on 1st of October, I gave her a job offer in writing that stated that she would be on trial for three months, she was fine at first, it took some time to get a reference for her from her previous employer, I telephoned in the end and got a horror story, but decided to give her the bennifit of the doubt, the written one I eventually received was not good either. her conduct now is not good, she is continually complaining about the terms and conditions, and I have told her that she agreed to these when she took the job and that I am not going to change them, she has refused to do a job because she said that she was not prepared to travel approx 4 miles to it unless she was paid more money, she has also stated that she cannot manage on the pay, I give her the hours and more,if I can, that she requested on a regular basis,I pay more than the minimum wage,I feel that I have bent over backwards to acommodate this girl, paying her weekly instead on monthly like every one else, can I get rid of this girl now, the other girls dont like working with her, I am prepared to pay her any holiday owing plus 1 weeks pay in lieu of notice I dont want her to work her notice, or do I have to go down the verbal warning, written warning route, her work is ok, its just her conduct I cannot work with.
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Hi Lesley,
U gave this person a job on a three month trial basis, she has not completed this period. Therefore you are completely within your rights to just tell her she has failed her probationary period, you don't have to explain why, and pay her one weeks pay ( in liu of notice if u don't want her to work anymore) and any holiday pay she has built up.
Hope this helps,
Regards.
Ron
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Definatly as ron said,
a straight thank you but its not worked out so good bye and do it as soon as possible. Although having said that, you can let anyone go in their first 12 months with no problem (pay notice etc) should you want to.
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thank you for your speedy response, I just feel this person will keep on stirring up trouble, she is not happy and there is no point in her staying.
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On the subject of her poor reference, it was my understanding that you cannot issue a bad reference - it must be good OR you must refuse to supply a reference at all. I have looked this up on the net and although it is not as black and white as i have just stated, you do, it seems, have tobe able to prove everything that is said and if its a negative comment then you have to prove you have evidence and investigations were put in place etc to back this up. If you fire her Keybrite, what sort of reference will you be giving her?
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Hi
I would do what Steve has said. Get rid of her as soon as possible before she does any damage.
Janey
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If you are an employer, you MUST get up to date information ACAS are helpful, but we found a company who specialise in Employment Issues and they will even make up a customised Company Handbook and an Employee Handbook, they will also advise / represnt your business should you end up at a tribunal, etc. PENINSULA is their name and the annual cost is very little.
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Hello, I still do 2 days a week at a big firm and they use "law at work " but up to a year they give 1 hours notice paid and escort the sacked person off site. I am a one man band but I would never keep anyone on if I did'nt want them - law or not you may have to pay them off but the damage they could do to your good name will cost more. Sack them now and worry not ! AND I AM A UNION MEMBER
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I believe in the sack now mentality, its to dangerous to keep a pi55ed off employee around.
But rest assured you dont need a reason to let people go in the first 12 months, you just pay what is owed and as this case is failing a trial period it is perfectly valid for you say "its not working out, you have failed". If they argue just dont get into it, Its your decision, bye bye! If they do kick off and want more info make an appointment to come back and see you in a weeks time. They wont! but it also gives you time to sort out your plan.
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your employee sounds exactly like one of mine, first 6 months not really ahd any problems with her, then probationary ended and she now wants to always undermine me, complains that we dont pay her enough and travel out of a few miles radius is definatley a thing to put her in a bad mood. She has a bad attitude and some customers have noticed it, she just has an aggressive tone of voice, like she came into my home ( istill work from there) and she said to my other half, in a very aggressive intimidating tone, is she here then!!!! and before now she has been fine when she has been greeted by other people when coming into my home and as soon as she sees me she puts on an attitude and pulls the most distressing faces, likened to 'the grinch' a 'raging bull' and some of my best loyal customers call her face ache!! she can be terrifing, i dont know what her problem is i've tried talking to her, but always comes to money, and one time her asking to borrow money from us!?
We need her as an employee at the moment bus as soon as we find new staff, she may find her position under threat.
Get rid of her if you can.
All the best
Lisa
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I feel for you Lisa, we really cannot be short staffed right now, but she has got to go, she will kick off when I tell her but I cannot have her any longer, as she will not get any better, We requested a reference from her previous employer 3 times, we phoned in the end and got a verbal report which they said was off the record, a we then received a written on, which just stated she worked to and from etc, but also said that she was not a good cleaner, even though she has passed NVQ stage 2. I went to ACAS and they said I had to give a verbal warning then a written etc etc, but I thought that I had no need to do this as she is still on probation, we will see what happens when I do the dirty deed
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Keybrite I can well understand why her previous employer refused to supply a reference, it goes back to what i was saying earlier. Obtaining the NVQ 1 and 2 unfourtunatly proves very little other than the fact that they were able to demonstrate to the trainer that they CAN clean correctly when being assesed, it has little to do with what they actually do in real life. A bit like passing your driving test and then being a terrible driver. Will you be mentioning what bit of a reference her previous employer gave you? Apparently the previous employer is not allowed to release to your employee (their ex employee) a copy of what they wrote due to DPA but you must do so if requested...what is your actual grief, is it her conduct or her cleaning ability, i ask this only as you mentioned her conduct as being your problem and the cleaning as her ex-employers problem. Which of these (or both) will you be telling her is the reason for sacking her?
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I have refused to give a reference loads of times, they always ask "would you take this person back on", then theres your chance to say "noooo way".
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Yup,
i gues you only need ever say;
"my mother told me, if you cant say anything good about someone dont say anything at all"
swiftly followed by
"so no comment!"
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Well quite, only with a reference there are obvioulsy legal implications too. i was led to belive that 'not giving a reference' spoke volumes.
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Some of you really need proper advice about the legalities of employment. The legslation is tightening all the time and if someone takes you to a tribunal, it's weighted in favourof the employee.
It's all about " following procedures " a pain in the ***e, but, if you fail to do it , it can be costly.
I mentioned Peninsula above and wold recommend you talk to them.
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Hi Glenda
her previous had a problem with her conduct and behaviour, which they told us verbally, she thought that she was a better than anyone else and openly criticised their way of working, which did not endear her to her workmates.
the written reference gave the dates she worked to and from and in what capacity, it also stated that she was not as good a cleaner as she thought she was. Iwill be telling her that she has reached the end of her training period and it has not worked out.
A, because she has managed to upset 2 of my cleaners who have been doing the job for years.
B she has made it quite clear to me that she is not happy with the terms and conditions.. ie pay and travelling times.
C my clients are not impressed, we have lost 3, not long standing but new ones who cancelled after 3 or less cleans, said not getting value for money
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Fair enuff. Might be easier for you though if you simply tell her that underr the training period it simply 'hasnt worked' for you. Were i you i would think long and hard about whether i needed to bring points (1) and (3) into it. Point (2) is the one that strikes me as the one where you and she both know the score and have evidence to support it. I would be reluctant to mention the other points, you dont want to give her ammo to throw at you at a later date. Hope it goes alright for you.
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I agree, why offer up ammo when your not obliged to?
"Sorry its not worked out how i thought it would and so we wont be taking you on permenantly."
if you need proffesional advice, speak to the people recomended above but i wouldent think you need it for this issue.
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thank you all for your advice, I was not going to tell her what her previous employers said, I was just going to say that it has not worked out for the company, I will pay 1 weeks money + 6 days holiday pay, ...
I am going on holiday for 2 weeks and I dont want any hassle for the lady that is going to run the company for me whilst Im away. wont tell her that either. Lesley
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Ive done the deed, she has gone, said she will sue me for unfair dismissal, I think we have had a lucky escape, she was trouble.
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Employing staff is always a minefield as peoples comments on here have shown, there are good staff out there who want to work, don't take a lend and are an asset to the business, just finding them is the hard thing ;D
Never go on first impressions, try not to employ relations/friends/relations of other employees, always set a 3 month probationary period and get their Statement of Employment out to them, signed and returned as soon as possible, give them a copy of the standards of work you expect and make sure you check on them regularly.
I know all of the above through personal experience!!!
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Ive done the deed, she has gone, said she will sue me for unfair dismissal, I think we have had a lucky escape, she was trouble.
I'm not quite sure how you've had a lucky escape if indeed she does sue. I presume she means she will take you to a tribunal?
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Glenda,
I don't see what Lesley has to worry about.She has acted correctly and i am sure the employee will be advised of this if she approaches the C.A.B.Iwould say never be afraid to be the boss of your own company, just make sure you follow all the correct procedures,
Regards,
Ron
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And one last comment - always treat people as you would expect to be treated !! - - Until they treat you otherwise. Then the gloves are off !! lol
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Well done Keybright. I think you did the right thing.
Food for thought though: The probationary period can sometimes be a double edged sword.
As has been mentioned, you do not have to give a reason to 'let an employee go' within the first 12 months of continous employment. However, the introduction of a probationary period into an employees T&C's forms a seperate part of an employment contract. The employee may well be within their rights to insist on a reasonable explanation as to why you are letting them go. "Sorry, but things have not worked out" may simply not be enough.
Although this would not constitute grounds for suing at an employment tribunal, a disgruntled and determined ex-employee could certainly use it to stir things up for you.
When ACAS tell you that you should follow the verbal and written warning procedure first, they are simply trying to advise you in a way that is beneficial to the employee, as well as you the employer. They are not saying that you should do this as a matter of law. Also, the warnings procedure works well for employees who commit minor infringements, but there is clear legislation on the side of the employer relating to instant dismissal for instances of serious misconduct.
The only issue then is, what constitutes serious misconduct. If the attitude or behaviour of an employee can be shown to have lost a business three clients, then that employee has put the wellbeing of the business in jeopardy. This easily constitutes serious misconduct.
Taking into account your employee was within the probationary period and the fact that you do not normally need a reason to 'let an employee go' in the first 12 months, I would still consider using serious misconduct as the reason in your situation. You might find that the employee is less likely to kick up a fuss because a valid and serious reason was given in any event.
I sincerely hope this is the last you hear of this person and I wish you all the best for the future.
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I also belive you to of done the right thing here,
It may be that the "things didnt work out" wouldnt be embraced by a third party sitting in judgement but it still is a fact and i understand you to be within your rights.(this can include things like fitting into a small team, which are important).
However, a clearer way of expressing the problem might be " I no longer have any work for the cleaner to do. I have lost the 3 jobs she was brought in to do, so i have been forced to let her go."
Maybe it is a more diplomatic and hard to find fault with view due to it being based on fact and economics rather than personal opinion?
she has proved you right with the suggestion she will be "suing you" however i would be 99% certain you will hear nothing more, Really tho' i am sure its what you expected to hear something like this from her.
One thing i would be wary of is having any coversations regarding the matter should you recieve a phone call from her, you dont want to give any ammunition to anyone. I would politely suggest its dealt with and hang up. wont she want a referance from you? you could ask her if you feel the need.
obviously these boards are good for getting opinions of what other people may do in certain situations but ultimatly the choices must always be made by yourself.
regards
steve
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Always remember in these difficult situations that it is you who has given them a job and thus money.I speak with two lots of experience of tribunals(both won i might add)that angry dismissed employees shouting the odds rarely get to tribunal and hardly ever win.Its a place like court and if you dont have good representation(very expensive) it is a fight you will lose in almost all cases.Always plan to sack them when it is easiest for you and have a witness present.
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Why did she last this long?
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thank you for all your feedback & comments, I have learned a lesson, I should have not kept her for 3 months even, but I needed her at the time and she ended up calling the shots, I will not let myself ever get into that situation again I would rather do the work myself, which Im having to do any way until I can get a replacement
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Good Luck keybrite
I learnt to my cost how difficult employees can be. Best to lay it all out at the start in writing and be clear from day one.
My motto now "my way or the highway"
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I thought I had done that, and that she had taken the job with the understanding of what I expected, also gave her a copy of it in writing, seems she thought she was so wonderful and that it did not apply to her.