Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Luc on December 04, 2007, 06:38:54 pm
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After having turned up on my second job this morning i realised that i had left my wand at the first job ???
After calling my mate who lived local to where i was working he let me use his spare single jet hydramaster wand. Having always used a 2 jet or 4 jet wand the last 10 years, i was quite surprised at how good it cleaned. i was running my tm at 350psi and it cleaned really well altho it used a lot more water than normal.
This led me to wondering dose anyone else use a single jet wand?
Are there any benefits to a wand with more jets?
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;D ;D ;D ;D
More jets, more potential for blockages eh Luc ;D
How you doing fella
Pete
(machine going well mate)
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Luc, there are a few posts about this very subject, just have a quick look back and you will see the previous discussions. Having said that, I use a single fan jet wand and it will always out perform a multi-jet wand. As yet I havent found any benefit from a multi-jet wand nor heard of any benefit from those who use one.
Best, Dave.
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I'm good mate. how are you. I've had a couple of quite weeks but worked 6am to 10pm yesterday. i done 11 jobs and feeling like crap as i'm so tired today :(
You ever had a day when all your previous customers want it all done on one particular day. I've only got thurs and fri booked out now.
Glad the old girl is running well. Its a nice machine. i must admit i have not used a ninja for a couple of months now. How is the other half??
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Yeah, i brought a westpac 4 jet wand recently and until i fitted it with a glide, it was leaving streaks on the carpet even with it being used on a tm. I was just surprised today as the single jet wand cleaned amazing and seemed to clean a bit quicker!!!!
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maybe simple is better?
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maybe simple is better?
Must be a geordie thing Paul (the simple thing) ;D
Luc
Mrs good, kids r good. Any changes for the better for you in that respect? Does seem quiet at mo (doing some labouring work to supplement) (would clean toilets if I had to).
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I'm waiting to see Dave and his tackle :o I'd love to try the single jet wand.
Shaun
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I'm waiting to see Dave and his tackle :o I'd love to try the single jet wand.
Shaun
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I've said before about you Shaun, you need help! ;D
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Is it true to say that a two jet wand results in half the PSI per jet than a single jet and a four jet a quarter PSI per jet?
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Not quite half or the quarter suggested but the more jets you have the less psi. More to the point is the reduction in the volume of solution being delivered.
Best, Dave.
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Would have thought the jet size was an important factor that comes into the equation in terms of how much solution is delivered!
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The more jets there are, the closer thay can be to the carpet.
The closer the jets to the carpet, so the lower the height of the tool (great for working under low furnishings).
The closer they are to the carpet, the less distance the pressurised water has to travel.
The less distance the water has to travel, the less energy there is lost.
The less energy lost, the greater the impact and shearing properties of the water on the soil.
The less distance the water has to travel, the less is the heat loss.
There will always be advantages and disadvantages with all configurations of wands.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Ken,
one or two points to mention regarding your post,
regarding pressure , I cannot see the majority of c/c been too worried about pressure as are not most machines available today at least a mimimum of 400psi , ample for most jobs. I have to keep my pressure down .
Heat loss. again I have to keep my heat down, and I cannot really imagine that a couple of inches from jet to floor will make one slight difference to most c/c , and after all with all todays cold water chemicals available, which I am sure you are an advocate of :-\ " I apologise if I am wrong on that point" so again wont make any diffference.
As for going under furniture, isnt the correct way to move the furnishings ?
And heres me thinking you carried out all your tasks in the correct manner ;) ;D
geoff
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a single jet might give an even spray pattern when its new but as it wears it will start to put more solution down in the centre and less at the outer edge, this will give an uneven cleaning unless you allow a generous overlap. using a multi-jet wand will cut down on this problem.
I assume Dave uses an enclosed single jet wand, an open single jet will create a lot of steam in the room with a machine that uses very hot water.
Mike
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If you rely on heat then you're better off with a multi jet wand. The less jets means the spray tip needs to be higher off the carpet to get the correct spray pattern. Great for atomisation at higher pressures but you'll instantly lose iro 30 degrees C according to Steve Brandt - Chemspec (or was that Farenheight - he's american) ???
Course if you're using a proper wand like CFR's then you've got the best of both worlds. Spray tips just above the fibres but the wand head features air induction for proper atomisation. When AM I going to get my commision from CFR? ;D
Alan
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Hi Geoff
I was keeping my reply generic, without any reference to specifics on the points I raised. I wasn't praising multi jet wands, merely pointing out some of the different characteristics.
As you suggest, many rinse/extraction machines have surplus psi so that the rinse can be adjusted to suit the needs of the particular application. But regardless of the equipment, energy (and heat) will be lost between the jets and the carpet. The shorter distance of travel, the less the loss. Also, to work with a higer psi on a single jet wand could lead to greater water consumption, so more down time with a porty.
Alan and Mike have also introduced valid contributions to this topic. The wear rate of jets (esp. plastic and brass) and the spray pattern, and also the smaller jets offer better atomisation (ie smaller droplets) for a more efficient rinse. Well that's the theory anyway.
And yes, I do frequently work with a cold water rinse, but this wasn't relevant to this debate. But today was a classic example of using cold. Large house, 4 bedrooms but I wasn't cleaning the H/S/L, on 100ft of hose. If I'd used hot water, I'd have had "pressure " marks on the H/S/L from the solution hose. With cold water, no problem. It wasn't practical to sheet the very long hall and landing.
On the furniture front, your risk assesment (yes, we all do it, usually without thinking about it) will always tell you if it's safe, for example, to move that 6 ft long sideboard loaded with antique china and glass, or whether you should just clean underneath. Same goes for office desks, some very large beds etc. etc.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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I find that having several jets allows you to use a greater range of pressure in opperation.
When water passes through the jet, the fans will vary in width depending on the pressure. With the single jet wand the fan will either be to wide for the wand at high pressure or to narrow at low pressure. Although you could have a differant angled jet for each extreme.
None of this will prevent you from cleaning. But will effect performance.
This difference in spray patterns is also true of multi jet wands to a lesser degree. As it is only a factor on one half of each fan that is mounted outermost on the cleaning head. So in short more jets is better.
But I bet someone will give a good arguement why it's not the case. 8)
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Ever used the jacketed solution hoses from Ashby's. They don't leave run lines when you're running at high temps. Annoyingly they only do 25 foot lengths.
Anyone know where solution hoses can be made up with these at 50 foot lengths?
Alan
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I have bought some legths of foam type tubing from bq I think plumbers use it for insulation , a simple slice with a stanly and it sits nicely over the line, I initialy bought it to fit over couplings , but works fine on line . an extra couple of mins thats all it takes .
oh and around 48p a lenght
geoff
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Clever trevor... I mean ... Goeff
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The closer the jets to the carpet, so the lower the height of the tool (great for working under low furnishings).
The closer they are to the carpet, the less distance the pressurised water has to travel.
If you have a single jet wand with a wider span of fan spray you can have it closer to the carpet, with 1 jet there is far less chance of blockage and teh flow rate should be greater although you may go through more water.
Shaun
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Shaun, with respect mate, have you got the foggiest idea what you're on about?
Alan
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20 years a carpet cleaner and a turn over of over £120 000 a year Truckmounted if that makes a difference, no not really, why have you any idea?
Shaun
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shaun, why don't you work saturdays and push that bottom line up a bit?
colin ;)
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Ok didn't see that one coming - well done ... You still came out with a daft comment - how can you have a single jet wand with a broad angle spray tip close to the carpet? The centre of the spray would have far greater impact and velocity than the outer edge and would produce an uneven result, and also spray systems broadest angle jet isn't going to come anywhere near the suggested (let's say 160 degree) angle that you're claiming useable. With a top average spray angle of around 110 + degrees the single jet wand with a spray tip THAT close to the carpet would give you a wand head size comparable to an upholstery tool.
I earn a lot less and enjoy knowing my job inside out.
Alan
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I guess not knowing my job means I can do a lot more but the proff in the pudding is that Dave Liohona has one now that is daft!
Shaun
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Sheesh, did I say you couldn't do your job?... Read my post again. Do you counter all objective criticism with the same unreasoning defence mechanism?
Chill!
Didn't understand the Liahona bit??
Alan
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Alan, Shauns comments about 6 posts previous were actually spot on. So he does indeed know what he is on about. However your comments 3 posts back suggests you know very little about a single fan jet and how it does what it does. Be careful saying you know your job inside out when by your comments it is painfully obvious you don't.
I would pressume and I know that I shouldnt that you have not used a single fan jet c/c wand or perhaps even seen one. If and again I say, if, this is the case then how can you make comments such as you have?
Best, Dave.
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Prove me wrong and I'll eat humble pie. I do not know of a single jet wand with a low profile head such as my CFR roller wand?? It can't be possible...
Hold on, does it have a flood jet? I know they can acheive a wider angle but they wear really quickly-even so I still reckon that at such a low position with a broad spray tip the centre of the spray would have greater velocity than the outer edges?
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not really applicable but I have a Rotowash with a 1 jet positioned 2 inches above the carpet and it sprays about 24inches wide
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Alan, the one I use is a stainless steel fan jet. I have 2 wands and between them in no specific order I have done many thousands of hours, without thinking too hard maybe 8 or 9 thousand and I havent yet replaced either of them. I also have a brand new wand, well apart from a few hours and this doesnt perform any different than my old two. Suggesting at least by my experience that they dont wear out very quickly as you have indicated.
Again, it is a fan jet that I am using and not what I am sure you are thinking.
Best, Dave.
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Then I guess I stand corrected. If you dont put your neck on the line you won't learn. ;)
If (particularly the Rotowash comment) really works well - how do you think it would fare on the centre jet of my CFR roller wand with the other two ports & vents on the manfold capped off. Bearing in mind that the spray tip is only 1.5 inches above the deck?
Alan
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na ni na ni na na :-*
let's keep it friendly please Alan or I'll have to send Straker round!
Shaun
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bugger me ive just sat and read that all three times
and im know futher forward , ive seen so many wands in my time the all look the same ;D guess ill stop with my two jeter , seen a 6 jeter and it looked like a little over kill for me
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ALAN.
click here you'll see a picture of the rotowash, you can see the single jet in the middle of the ones on the right
http://www.rotowash.com
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Firstly, I know I wind a few people up on here, not intentionally mind - seems o be a North/ South thing, but sometimes you have to wade through the bull (strong opinions on numpty) :o to get a correct understanding on something - (which in this instance I now understand better) there's a lot of myths n' legends in this game as you would know being in for 18 years. ;)
Second, Chris has helped me no end over recent months and I'm sure he gets a laugh out of a lot of the posts on this particular forum.
Best
Alan
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I've used 4, 2 and 1 jet wands and have to say I can't see much difference other than more jets more potential probs.
Alan's point (as are it's responses) are something I would like to clarify.
1, more jets wider wand?
2, less jets = further away from the floor?
Dave, can you explain this one as I agree with you in practise but I don't understand the theory behind it because as Alan says, how can you get a single low profile jet to fan out to an acceptable (and even) level.
Pete
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If you don't like it here don'y come, even if you didn't like or don't agree with my post the answer from Dave said it all, I've tried to lighten this post with a bit of humour but if you want to be a know it all then so be it.
Shaun
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I take it that wernt directed at me Shaun. You know me, still on a leanrning curve (very steep but climbing slowly).
Luv u, kisses, please love me, I need your acceptance ;)
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Dave
You say your wand uses a 'fan jet' implying that this is different from other wand jets. Don't all standard wands use 'fan jets' in one size or the other?
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Shut up Pete, just get out of the way!
Bullets flying
Shaun
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Shut up Pete, just get out of the way!
Bullets flying
Shaun
but I'm a rootin tootin cowboy too (just not very good at it)
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go on then sing Raw Hide a dare ya!
Shaun
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Pete, Dave, someone - is Shaun on a massive downer or something? What exactly have I said other than my initial comment that Shaun has got so up in the air about?
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The more jets there are, the closer thay can be to the carpet.
The closer the jets to the carpet, so the lower the height of the tool (great for working under low furnishings).
The closer they are to the carpet, the less distance the pressurised water has to travel.
The less distance the water has to travel, the less energy there is lost.
The less energy lost, the greater the impact and shearing properties of the water on the soil.
The less distance the water has to travel, the less is the heat loss.
There will always be advantages and disadvantages with all configurations of wands.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
Thank you Ken!
I was about to pop a blood vessel with the mis-information being posted.
I won't even address the cold water stuff, heat is always better.
And who was it that said that roto-wash FloodJet was 2" off the carpet, looks more like 4 or 5" to me. With a standard 128º spray angle that might work....at 40 psi.
I notice nobody mnetioned that these "worn out" single jet wands are probably putting out twice teh volume of water as when new...twice the water can mean a better clean...especially if compared to a 4 jet with very small jets in the first place.
Show me a high flow wand with steeply angled jets 1" off the carpet and 500 psi and I'll show you a cleaning and drying demon....of course it will have a glide.
I can't beleive we're having this discussion, over on Truckmounters this was covered ages ago.
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Amen brother
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Hi Guys
Can we stop the bitching and concentrate on the technicalities.
The 'I'm a better carpet cleaner than you' has no place on this forum.
Cheers
Doug
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Anyone who's done pressure washing will know that moving the jet of water closer to the surface being cleaning dramatically increases the cleaning power.
This backs up Kens explanation of the water losing energy the further it has to travel, even a few centimetres.
Therefore it seems likely if you rely on the wand to do the cleaning, use detergent in the tank, high pressure as close to the fibres as possible is going to be more effective.
However if you use a pre-spray and agitation then this may not be so critical as the dirt is already loosened and held in suspension and just needs flushing out.
Vernon Purcell has designed a wand, unfortunately not in production yet, where the jets (2) face forward almost parallel to the carpet surface. The idea being that the water slices through the pile rather than down into it very similar to CFR principle. This is very low profile and worked brilliantly when I tested it.
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If Vernon Purcell has designed a wand as described but is not in production, you should look at this Jeff Lydon guy who posted above. Apparently he does a wand which picks up the principle of the jet angle. Understand his is in production and available